12至13世纪，中东和宋朝哪个在科技和经济上更先进？

12至13世纪，中东和宋朝哪个在科技和经济上更先进？
Who was more technologically/economically advanced in the 12-13th century?

http://historum.com/asian-histor ... 2-13th-century.html
翻译：龙腾

Who was more technologically/economically advanced in the 12-13th century AD? The Middle East or Song China? Both sides like to claim that they were, at that time, the civilization with the most sophisticated technology, advanced science, strong economy, etc.
In the West, Baghdad is commonly seen as the center of knowledge, science, and invention at this time. But reading about the Song dynasty is really mind blowing (especially the list of inventions), and considering that most people know very very little about Chinese history, I'm becoming more skeptical of my general knowledge.
Any evidence to show which one was more advanced? I'm of course not excluding that both were equally marvelous civilizations (too bad both were entirely destroyed by the Mongols. The world would have been so different without these Barbarians destroying two of the greatest civilizations).


公元十二至十三世纪期间哪一方在科技/经济上更为领先？是中东还是中国宋朝？这两大文明似乎都认为自己在那个时期有着最精妙的技术、最先进的科学，以及最强大的经济实力等等。
在西方人眼中，那个时期的巴格达通常被视为知识、科技与发明中心。但读一读宋朝，真的是大放异彩（特别是一连串发明）。考虑到大部分人对中国知之甚少，我愈发怀疑自己的常识是否有误。
是否有证据能证明哪一方更加先进呢？当然两方都是了不起的文明，对此我毫无异议（可惜两者都彻底毁于蒙古人之手。如果那群野蛮人没有毁掉这两个伟大的文明，如今的世界定然大不一样）。

评论
Scholar
Joined: Oct 2013
From: Somewhere Around Nothing
Posts: 965
Advanced in overall technology? Progressiveness? Women's rights? Agriculture?
Safe to say they were both incredibly advanced and had the potential to prosper more had there been less geographical obstacles in betweem.

你是说在科技、进步程度、女权、农业上整体领先？
保守点的说法是这两方都极其先进，而且如果两者间的地理阻隔更少一点，可能会更加繁荣。

Gize
Academician
Joined: Jan 2014
From: Canada
Posts: 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by YouLoveMeYouKnowIt
Advanced in overall technology? Progressiveness? Women's rights? Agriculture?
Safe to say they were both incredibly advanced and had the potential to prosper more had there been less geographical obstacles in betweem.
The OP already said that both were pretty advanced and had potential, but this thread is about which one is better.

引用：
你是说在科技、进步程度、女权、农业上整体领先？
保守点的说法是这两方都极其先进，而且如果两者间的地理阻隔更少一点，可能会更加繁荣。
楼主已经说过两者都相当先进繁荣了，问题是哪个更牛B点。

YouLoveMeYouKnowIt
Scholar
Joined: Oct 2013
From: Somewhere Around Nothing
Posts: 965
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gize
Women's rights were pretty bad in both places. And what do you mean they would prosper more had there been less geographical obstacles?
The OP already said that both were pretty advanced and had potential, but this thread is about which one is better.
I am well aware of what he's asking, I just chose not to answer it until he would specify what he means by advanced. If solely looking at technology I am tempted to say Song China.

引用：
楼主已经说过两者都相当先进繁荣了，问题是哪个更牛B点。
我知道他什么意思，我只是不打算给出答案，除非他能确切定义先进的含义。单从科技领域看我比较青睐中国。

Legionarius
Scholar
Joined: Aug 2013
From: South Korea
Posts: 792
Quote:
Originally Posted by YouLoveMeYouKnowIt
I am well aware of what he's asking, I just chose not to answer it until he would specify what he means by advanced. If solely looking at technology I am tempted to say Song China.
Agreed. Baghdad and Kaifeng were both hugely prosperous metropolises for example and some kind of criteria would be necessary to determine which civilization was more advanced.

引用：
我知道他什么意思，我只是不打算给出答案，除非他能确切定义先进的含义。单从科技领域看我比较青睐宋朝。
同意。巴格达和开封都是典型的极其繁荣的大都会，要比较两个文明孰优孰劣需要某种标准。

Ichon
Scholar
Joined: Mar 2013
From: .
Posts: 927
I'd vote Song China but without objective criteria the comparison is a but useless. If I could live in either place I'd prefer to live in Baghdad I think as slightly better odds of having prosperous life. Song China had some very prosperous people and a large number of peasants while the classes weren't quite as separated in Baghdad from my understanding.

我投宋朝一票，但是没有客观标准的话这种比较毫无意义。如果让我选个地方生活的话我倾向于住在巴格达，过上土豪生活的可能性稍微高一点。据我所知，宋朝有一部分人富甲天下的同时还有大量的屁民，阶级分布和巴格达大不一样。

YouLoveMeYouKnowIt
Scholar
Joined: Oct 2013
From: Somewhere Around Nothing
Posts: 965
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ichon
I'd vote Song China but without objective criteria the comparison is a but useless. If I could live in either place I'd prefer to live in Baghdad I think as slightly better odds of having prosperous life. Song China had some very prosperous people and a large number of peasants while the classes weren't quite as separated in Baghdad from my understanding.
Baghdad to Song China is like Kaifeng to Iraq.

引用：
我投宋朝一票，但是没有客观标准的话这种比较毫无意义。如果让我选个地方生活的话我倾向于住在巴格达，过上土豪生活的可能性稍微高一点。据我所知，宋朝有一部分人富甲天下的同时还有大量的屁民，阶级分布和巴格达大不一样。
拿巴格达比宋朝相当于拿开封比伊拉克。

Bart Dale
Historian
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,225
Quote:
Originally Posted by YouLoveMeYouKnowIt
Baghdad to Song China is like Kaifeng to Iraq.
True, the comparison is a little off, because as you point out, Baghdad is just a city, while Song China is an entire country, so it is like comparing the city of Kaifeng to the Country of Iraq.

引用：
拿巴格达比宋朝相当于拿开封比伊拉克。
没错，这个比较不太恰当。如你所言，巴格达不过是座城市，宋朝却是一整个国家，就像是拿开封这座城市去比较伊拉克这个国家。

Bart Dale
Historian
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,225
Quote:
Originally Posted by YouLoveMeYouKnowIt
Baghdad to Song China is like Kaifeng to Iraq.
True, the comparison is a little off, because as you point out, Baghdad is just a city, while Song China is an entire country, so it is like comparing the city of Kaifeng to the Country of Iraq.
However, Baghdad was the center of the Islamic world in learning and civilization, and not just a political capital. While Kaifeng was the political capital of the Song at one time, I don't think it was the center of Chinese civilization, of learning and culture to the same degree that Baghdad was for the Muslim world. (Song had a couple capitals, Kaifeng, and Hangzhou, during the same period of time that Baghdad was the capital. )
One the difficulties in trying to decide which society was more advance is that each had some areas where it was more advance than the other, and it is a judgment call to decide which area was more important.
For examples, the Song porcelain was far in superior to other forms of pottery, but the Islamic world glass work. So who is to say which is more advance?
And while the Song had magnetic compasses (although by the 13th century, so did the Islamic world), but the Muslims knew that the shape and size of the earth, something the Chinese did not.
The Song had paper currency, but the Muslims had a early version of bank cheques. Is the concept of paper money, even if was a failure when first introduced, more important than the perhaps less innovative but more successful early version of checking used by the Muslims?
To me, it is a tie. I might give the slight nod to the Song, because some of the areas the the Islamic world was more advance, such as the shape and size of the earth, were things they had inherited from previous civilization, while I think the Song made more of their inventions themselves.

引用：
没错，这个比较不太恰当。如你所言，巴格达不过是座城市，宋朝却是一整个国家，就像是拿开封这座城市去比较伊拉克这个国家。
但是巴格达是伊斯兰世界的教育与文化中心，不仅仅是座首都。尽管开封是当时的宋朝首都，我不认为它是中华文明的中心，或者具有相当于巴格达在穆斯林界的教育与文化地位（在巴格达成为首都期间，宋朝有两个首都，开封和杭州）。
要比较哪个社会更加先进的难点之一就是双方各在某些领域内领先于对方，比较哪些领域更重要更加公正一些。
比如说，宋瓷远胜过别的陶器，但是伊斯兰世界掌有玻璃制作工艺。怎么分得出哪一方更先进？
与此同时虽然宋朝有指南针（不过到了十三世纪，伊斯兰世界也有了），但穆斯林们知道地球的形状和大小，这点中国人不知道。
宋朝发明了纸币，但穆斯林们有一种早期版本的银行支票。纸币的概念是否比穆斯林们用的早期支票更加重要呢。尽管纸币在开始推广时就失败了，而支票虽然创新性较低，却更加成功。
对我而言，两者打成平手。不过我可能会稍微钟意宋朝一点。因为伊斯兰文明比较领先的一些领域，例如地理方面，继承自一些之前的文明，而宋朝更多的是自主创新。

fangqingming
history princess
Joined: Mar 2011
From: dragon's area
Posts: 2,747
but it isn't the ancient greeks calculated the radius and circumference of the earth?

不是古希腊人计算出了地球的半径和圆周吗？

Legionarius
Scholar
Joined: Aug 2013
From: South Korea
Posts: 792
Quote:
Originally Posted by fangqingming
but it isn't the ancient greeks calculated the radius and circumference of the earth?
Yes. Eratosthenes(Greco-Roman) was the first one to do so. The Islamic world acquired quite a bit of knowledge from the Alexandreian Library, I believe, even before it got burnt down

引用：
不是古希腊人计算出了地球的半径和圆周吗？
是的，埃拉托斯特尼（希腊-罗马时期）是第一个这么做的人。我相信伊斯兰世界从亚历山大图书馆得到了不少知识，在它被焚毁之前。

civfanatic
Lecturer
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 443
Blog Entries: 6
How did China and the Islamic World compare in medical knowledge during this time?
The medieval Islamic civilization produced some of the greatest doctors and medical researchers in history up that point, like Avicenna (Ibn-e-Sina), Rhazes (al-Razi), Al-Hazen (Ibn al-Haytham), al-Baghdadi, and Maimonides. For the time, medicine in the Islamic world was quite advanced, scientific, and based on empirical observation. Avicenna's Canon of Medicine is easily one of the most influential books in the history of medicine.
I don't know much about Chinese medicine and how advanced it was, but I remember reading that the Chinese during Song dynasty were performing inoculation for smallpox.

这段时期的中国和伊斯兰世界相比，医学知识如何？
那时候，中世纪的伊斯兰文明产生了一些最伟大的医生和医学研究者，例如阿维森纳（伊本·西纳）、拉齐斯（阿尔·拉齐）、阿尔·哈曾（伊本·阿尔·海什木）、阿尔·巴格达迪，以及迈蒙尼德。那段时间里，伊斯兰医学相当先进，科学合理，而且基于经验观察。阿维森纳的《医典》显然是医学史上最具影响力的书籍之一。

HackneyedScribe
Historian
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,026
You can read the English version of the first forensics book written by Song Ci

你可以读读宋慈著作的第一本法医书籍的英文版
译注：指《洗冤录》

HackneyedScribe
Historian
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,026
Quote:
The Song had paper currency, but the Muslims had a early version of bank cheques. Is the concept of paper money, even if was a failure when first introduced, more important than the perhaps less innovative but more successful early version of checking used by the Muslims?
What is the difference between Muslim bank cheques and the Tang dynasty bank notes?
Thanks in advance.

引用：
宋朝发明了纸币，但穆斯林们有一种早期版本的银行支票。纸币的概念是否比穆斯林们用的早期支票更加重要呢。尽管纸币在开始推广时就失败了，而支票虽然创新性较低，却更加成功。
穆斯林银行支票和唐朝纸币有什么区别吗？
先谢一个。
译注：唐朝的纸币，大概说的是飞钱，虽然飞钱和纸币还是有些区别的。“飞钱”亦称“便换”，起于唐宪宗时，是一种早期的汇兑方式，源自商业发达导致的钱荒。官营私营皆有。

Cassius Dio
Citizen
Joined: Jan 2014
From: Québec
Posts: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by HackneyedScribe
What is the difference between Muslim bank cheques and the Tang dynasty bank notes?
I think the bank cheques are used to borrow money, kind like an IOU. Chinese bank notes, on the other hand, are invented to replaced the copper coins to facilitate large transactions.

引用：
穆斯林银行支票和唐朝纸币有什么区别吗？
我认为银行支票是用来借钱的，就像一张借条。另一方面，中国的纸币是用来代替铜钱，方便大宗交易的。

Ichon
Scholar
Joined: Mar 2013
From: .
Posts: 927
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cassius Dio
I think the bank cheques are used to borrow money, kind like an IOU. Chinese bank notes, on the other hand, are invented to replaced the copper coins to facilitate large transactions.
Pretty good summary description. Money normally is described as having 3 main functions- store of value, medium of exchange, and a unit of account.
Essentially Islamic bank cheques would only fulfill 2 of those functions; they were used both as a store of value and units of account to facilitate long distance trade where merchants would write a cheque against the credit of a local trading house or factor in order to buy goods and that cheque would then be covered by the arrival of a later shipment or a cheque of similar value made by local merchants in another distant city. Islamic finance made advances in partnerships and cooperative ventures which shared risk and reward equitably and made long term investments without government support feasible.
Chinese notes were more similar to the money we have today as they could be used as a medium of exchange in that many more merchants and businesses accepted them as 'money' compared to special traders or factors for Islamic cheques. Tang first introduce a system somewhat similar to Islamic cheques with promissary notes and other bills written on paper widely traded and with the government authorizing different commercial interests to issue notes. Eventually Song made it into a national system which is for most purposes the first paper currency economy in the 11th century.
However Chinese did run into a classic problem with notes being a store of value in that forgery and inflation was at times a serious problem so as a store of value people did not trust notes equally though they did accept them in payment.

引用：
我认为银行支票是用来借钱的，就像一张借条。另一方面，中国的纸币是用来代替铜钱，方便大宗交易的。
描述得很好。货币通常被认为有三大功能：交易媒介、储藏价值和记帐单位。
基本上伊斯兰银行支票仅能满足其中两项功能：储藏价值和记账单位，为长途贸易提供便利。商人可以给本地贸易公司或代理人签发一张信用支票来购买商品，这张支票会以一段时间以后运来的货物或另一座遥远的城市的商人签发的等价支票支付。伊斯兰金融业的先进之处就在于合伙人和合资者平等分担风险与回报，使得长期投资可在无政府监管的情况下实现。
中国的纸币更近似于我们今天使用的货币，因为它可以作为交易媒介，和特定交易人或代理人使用的伊斯兰支票相比，会有多得多的商人和商业活动把它们作为“钱”使用。唐代率先引入了一种类似于伊斯兰支票的体系。这是一种在纸上注明本金和利息、广泛流通，并由政府权威保障种种商业利益，从而发行的票据。最终到了宋代成为了一套在全国范围内流通的系统，很有可能是出现在十一世纪的世界上第一种货币经济体系。
然而中国人碰到了纸币作为储藏价值的典型麻烦。伪造和通胀防不胜防，变成了严重问题，以至于人们不再信任纸币的储藏价值，虽然他们依然接受纸币交易。12至13世纪，中东和宋朝哪个在科技和经济上更先进？
Who was more technologically/economically advanced in the 12-13th century?

http://historum.com/asian-histor ... 2-13th-century.html
翻译：龙腾

Who was more technologically/economically advanced in the 12-13th century AD? The Middle East or Song China? Both sides like to claim that they were, at that time, the civilization with the most sophisticated technology, advanced science, strong economy, etc.
In the West, Baghdad is commonly seen as the center of knowledge, science, and invention at this time. But reading about the Song dynasty is really mind blowing (especially the list of inventions), and considering that most people know very very little about Chinese history, I'm becoming more skeptical of my general knowledge.
Any evidence to show which one was more advanced? I'm of course not excluding that both were equally marvelous civilizations (too bad both were entirely destroyed by the Mongols. The world would have been so different without these Barbarians destroying two of the greatest civilizations).


公元十二至十三世纪期间哪一方在科技/经济上更为领先？是中东还是中国宋朝？这两大文明似乎都认为自己在那个时期有着最精妙的技术、最先进的科学，以及最强大的经济实力等等。
在西方人眼中，那个时期的巴格达通常被视为知识、科技与发明中心。但读一读宋朝，真的是大放异彩（特别是一连串发明）。考虑到大部分人对中国知之甚少，我愈发怀疑自己的常识是否有误。
是否有证据能证明哪一方更加先进呢？当然两方都是了不起的文明，对此我毫无异议（可惜两者都彻底毁于蒙古人之手。如果那群野蛮人没有毁掉这两个伟大的文明，如今的世界定然大不一样）。

评论
Scholar
Joined: Oct 2013
From: Somewhere Around Nothing
Posts: 965
Advanced in overall technology? Progressiveness? Women's rights? Agriculture?
Safe to say they were both incredibly advanced and had the potential to prosper more had there been less geographical obstacles in betweem.

你是说在科技、进步程度、女权、农业上整体领先？
保守点的说法是这两方都极其先进，而且如果两者间的地理阻隔更少一点，可能会更加繁荣。

Gize
Academician
Joined: Jan 2014
From: Canada
Posts: 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by YouLoveMeYouKnowIt
Advanced in overall technology? Progressiveness? Women's rights? Agriculture?
Safe to say they were both incredibly advanced and had the potential to prosper more had there been less geographical obstacles in betweem.
The OP already said that both were pretty advanced and had potential, but this thread is about which one is better.

引用：
你是说在科技、进步程度、女权、农业上整体领先？
保守点的说法是这两方都极其先进，而且如果两者间的地理阻隔更少一点，可能会更加繁荣。
楼主已经说过两者都相当先进繁荣了，问题是哪个更牛B点。

YouLoveMeYouKnowIt
Scholar
Joined: Oct 2013
From: Somewhere Around Nothing
Posts: 965
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gize
Women's rights were pretty bad in both places. And what do you mean they would prosper more had there been less geographical obstacles?
The OP already said that both were pretty advanced and had potential, but this thread is about which one is better.
I am well aware of what he's asking, I just chose not to answer it until he would specify what he means by advanced. If solely looking at technology I am tempted to say Song China.

引用：
楼主已经说过两者都相当先进繁荣了，问题是哪个更牛B点。
我知道他什么意思，我只是不打算给出答案，除非他能确切定义先进的含义。单从科技领域看我比较青睐中国。

Legionarius
Scholar
Joined: Aug 2013
From: South Korea
Posts: 792
Quote:
Originally Posted by YouLoveMeYouKnowIt
I am well aware of what he's asking, I just chose not to answer it until he would specify what he means by advanced. If solely looking at technology I am tempted to say Song China.
Agreed. Baghdad and Kaifeng were both hugely prosperous metropolises for example and some kind of criteria would be necessary to determine which civilization was more advanced.

引用：
我知道他什么意思，我只是不打算给出答案，除非他能确切定义先进的含义。单从科技领域看我比较青睐宋朝。
同意。巴格达和开封都是典型的极其繁荣的大都会，要比较两个文明孰优孰劣需要某种标准。

Ichon
Scholar
Joined: Mar 2013
From: .
Posts: 927
I'd vote Song China but without objective criteria the comparison is a but useless. If I could live in either place I'd prefer to live in Baghdad I think as slightly better odds of having prosperous life. Song China had some very prosperous people and a large number of peasants while the classes weren't quite as separated in Baghdad from my understanding.

我投宋朝一票，但是没有客观标准的话这种比较毫无意义。如果让我选个地方生活的话我倾向于住在巴格达，过上土豪生活的可能性稍微高一点。据我所知，宋朝有一部分人富甲天下的同时还有大量的屁民，阶级分布和巴格达大不一样。

YouLoveMeYouKnowIt
Scholar
Joined: Oct 2013
From: Somewhere Around Nothing
Posts: 965
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ichon
I'd vote Song China but without objective criteria the comparison is a but useless. If I could live in either place I'd prefer to live in Baghdad I think as slightly better odds of having prosperous life. Song China had some very prosperous people and a large number of peasants while the classes weren't quite as separated in Baghdad from my understanding.
Baghdad to Song China is like Kaifeng to Iraq.

引用：
我投宋朝一票，但是没有客观标准的话这种比较毫无意义。如果让我选个地方生活的话我倾向于住在巴格达，过上土豪生活的可能性稍微高一点。据我所知，宋朝有一部分人富甲天下的同时还有大量的屁民，阶级分布和巴格达大不一样。
拿巴格达比宋朝相当于拿开封比伊拉克。

Bart Dale
Historian
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,225
Quote:
Originally Posted by YouLoveMeYouKnowIt
Baghdad to Song China is like Kaifeng to Iraq.
True, the comparison is a little off, because as you point out, Baghdad is just a city, while Song China is an entire country, so it is like comparing the city of Kaifeng to the Country of Iraq.

引用：
拿巴格达比宋朝相当于拿开封比伊拉克。
没错，这个比较不太恰当。如你所言，巴格达不过是座城市，宋朝却是一整个国家，就像是拿开封这座城市去比较伊拉克这个国家。

Bart Dale
Historian
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,225
Quote:
Originally Posted by YouLoveMeYouKnowIt
Baghdad to Song China is like Kaifeng to Iraq.
True, the comparison is a little off, because as you point out, Baghdad is just a city, while Song China is an entire country, so it is like comparing the city of Kaifeng to the Country of Iraq.
However, Baghdad was the center of the Islamic world in learning and civilization, and not just a political capital. While Kaifeng was the political capital of the Song at one time, I don't think it was the center of Chinese civilization, of learning and culture to the same degree that Baghdad was for the Muslim world. (Song had a couple capitals, Kaifeng, and Hangzhou, during the same period of time that Baghdad was the capital. )
One the difficulties in trying to decide which society was more advance is that each had some areas where it was more advance than the other, and it is a judgment call to decide which area was more important.
For examples, the Song porcelain was far in superior to other forms of pottery, but the Islamic world glass work. So who is to say which is more advance?
And while the Song had magnetic compasses (although by the 13th century, so did the Islamic world), but the Muslims knew that the shape and size of the earth, something the Chinese did not.
The Song had paper currency, but the Muslims had a early version of bank cheques. Is the concept of paper money, even if was a failure when first introduced, more important than the perhaps less innovative but more successful early version of checking used by the Muslims?
To me, it is a tie. I might give the slight nod to the Song, because some of the areas the the Islamic world was more advance, such as the shape and size of the earth, were things they had inherited from previous civilization, while I think the Song made more of their inventions themselves.

引用：
没错，这个比较不太恰当。如你所言，巴格达不过是座城市，宋朝却是一整个国家，就像是拿开封这座城市去比较伊拉克这个国家。
但是巴格达是伊斯兰世界的教育与文化中心，不仅仅是座首都。尽管开封是当时的宋朝首都，我不认为它是中华文明的中心，或者具有相当于巴格达在穆斯林界的教育与文化地位（在巴格达成为首都期间，宋朝有两个首都，开封和杭州）。
要比较哪个社会更加先进的难点之一就是双方各在某些领域内领先于对方，比较哪些领域更重要更加公正一些。
比如说，宋瓷远胜过别的陶器，但是伊斯兰世界掌有玻璃制作工艺。怎么分得出哪一方更先进？
与此同时虽然宋朝有指南针（不过到了十三世纪，伊斯兰世界也有了），但穆斯林们知道地球的形状和大小，这点中国人不知道。
宋朝发明了纸币，但穆斯林们有一种早期版本的银行支票。纸币的概念是否比穆斯林们用的早期支票更加重要呢。尽管纸币在开始推广时就失败了，而支票虽然创新性较低，却更加成功。
对我而言，两者打成平手。不过我可能会稍微钟意宋朝一点。因为伊斯兰文明比较领先的一些领域，例如地理方面，继承自一些之前的文明，而宋朝更多的是自主创新。

fangqingming
history princess
Joined: Mar 2011
From: dragon's area
Posts: 2,747
but it isn't the ancient greeks calculated the radius and circumference of the earth?

不是古希腊人计算出了地球的半径和圆周吗？

Legionarius
Scholar
Joined: Aug 2013
From: South Korea
Posts: 792
Quote:
Originally Posted by fangqingming
but it isn't the ancient greeks calculated the radius and circumference of the earth?
Yes. Eratosthenes(Greco-Roman) was the first one to do so. The Islamic world acquired quite a bit of knowledge from the Alexandreian Library, I believe, even before it got burnt down

引用：
不是古希腊人计算出了地球的半径和圆周吗？
是的，埃拉托斯特尼（希腊-罗马时期）是第一个这么做的人。我相信伊斯兰世界从亚历山大图书馆得到了不少知识，在它被焚毁之前。

civfanatic
Lecturer
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 443
Blog Entries: 6
How did China and the Islamic World compare in medical knowledge during this time?
The medieval Islamic civilization produced some of the greatest doctors and medical researchers in history up that point, like Avicenna (Ibn-e-Sina), Rhazes (al-Razi), Al-Hazen (Ibn al-Haytham), al-Baghdadi, and Maimonides. For the time, medicine in the Islamic world was quite advanced, scientific, and based on empirical observation. Avicenna's Canon of Medicine is easily one of the most influential books in the history of medicine.
I don't know much about Chinese medicine and how advanced it was, but I remember reading that the Chinese during Song dynasty were performing inoculation for smallpox.

这段时期的中国和伊斯兰世界相比，医学知识如何？
那时候，中世纪的伊斯兰文明产生了一些最伟大的医生和医学研究者，例如阿维森纳（伊本·西纳）、拉齐斯（阿尔·拉齐）、阿尔·哈曾（伊本·阿尔·海什木）、阿尔·巴格达迪，以及迈蒙尼德。那段时间里，伊斯兰医学相当先进，科学合理，而且基于经验观察。阿维森纳的《医典》显然是医学史上最具影响力的书籍之一。

HackneyedScribe
Historian
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,026
You can read the English version of the first forensics book written by Song Ci

你可以读读宋慈著作的第一本法医书籍的英文版
译注：指《洗冤录》

HackneyedScribe
Historian
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,026
Quote:
The Song had paper currency, but the Muslims had a early version of bank cheques. Is the concept of paper money, even if was a failure when first introduced, more important than the perhaps less innovative but more successful early version of checking used by the Muslims?
What is the difference between Muslim bank cheques and the Tang dynasty bank notes?
Thanks in advance.

引用：
宋朝发明了纸币，但穆斯林们有一种早期版本的银行支票。纸币的概念是否比穆斯林们用的早期支票更加重要呢。尽管纸币在开始推广时就失败了，而支票虽然创新性较低，却更加成功。
穆斯林银行支票和唐朝纸币有什么区别吗？
先谢一个。
译注：唐朝的纸币，大概说的是飞钱，虽然飞钱和纸币还是有些区别的。“飞钱”亦称“便换”，起于唐宪宗时，是一种早期的汇兑方式，源自商业发达导致的钱荒。官营私营皆有。

Cassius Dio
Citizen
Joined: Jan 2014
From: Québec
Posts: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by HackneyedScribe
What is the difference between Muslim bank cheques and the Tang dynasty bank notes?
I think the bank cheques are used to borrow money, kind like an IOU. Chinese bank notes, on the other hand, are invented to replaced the copper coins to facilitate large transactions.

引用：
穆斯林银行支票和唐朝纸币有什么区别吗？
我认为银行支票是用来借钱的，就像一张借条。另一方面，中国的纸币是用来代替铜钱，方便大宗交易的。

Ichon
Scholar
Joined: Mar 2013
From: .
Posts: 927
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cassius Dio
I think the bank cheques are used to borrow money, kind like an IOU. Chinese bank notes, on the other hand, are invented to replaced the copper coins to facilitate large transactions.
Pretty good summary description. Money normally is described as having 3 main functions- store of value, medium of exchange, and a unit of account.
Essentially Islamic bank cheques would only fulfill 2 of those functions; they were used both as a store of value and units of account to facilitate long distance trade where merchants would write a cheque against the credit of a local trading house or factor in order to buy goods and that cheque would then be covered by the arrival of a later shipment or a cheque of similar value made by local merchants in another distant city. Islamic finance made advances in partnerships and cooperative ventures which shared risk and reward equitably and made long term investments without government support feasible.
Chinese notes were more similar to the money we have today as they could be used as a medium of exchange in that many more merchants and businesses accepted them as 'money' compared to special traders or factors for Islamic cheques. Tang first introduce a system somewhat similar to Islamic cheques with promissary notes and other bills written on paper widely traded and with the government authorizing different commercial interests to issue notes. Eventually Song made it into a national system which is for most purposes the first paper currency economy in the 11th century.
However Chinese did run into a classic problem with notes being a store of value in that forgery and inflation was at times a serious problem so as a store of value people did not trust notes equally though they did accept them in payment.

引用：
我认为银行支票是用来借钱的，就像一张借条。另一方面，中国的纸币是用来代替铜钱，方便大宗交易的。
描述得很好。货币通常被认为有三大功能：交易媒介、储藏价值和记帐单位。
基本上伊斯兰银行支票仅能满足其中两项功能：储藏价值和记账单位，为长途贸易提供便利。商人可以给本地贸易公司或代理人签发一张信用支票来购买商品，这张支票会以一段时间以后运来的货物或另一座遥远的城市的商人签发的等价支票支付。伊斯兰金融业的先进之处就在于合伙人和合资者平等分担风险与回报，使得长期投资可在无政府监管的情况下实现。
中国的纸币更近似于我们今天使用的货币，因为它可以作为交易媒介，和特定交易人或代理人使用的伊斯兰支票相比，会有多得多的商人和商业活动把它们作为“钱”使用。唐代率先引入了一种类似于伊斯兰支票的体系。这是一种在纸上注明本金和利息、广泛流通，并由政府权威保障种种商业利益，从而发行的票据。最终到了宋代成为了一套在全国范围内流通的系统，很有可能是出现在十一世纪的世界上第一种货币经济体系。
然而中国人碰到了纸币作为储藏价值的典型麻烦。伪造和通胀防不胜防，变成了严重问题，以至于人们不再信任纸币的储藏价值，虽然他们依然接受纸币交易。