绝对的民主是历史倒退

到底是谈民主，还是谈民族？

不过，不管是谈民主还是谈民族，我觉得，都不如谈风月~

现在世界上有哪个国家的民主不是少数人统治多数人的

讨论个球
真的，讨论这个还不如去讨论国足的臭球
你爱当奴才没人拦着你

民主是暴民政治，是万恶之源。

去搜索下这句话出自哪里。

zzx6800 发表于 2011-2-21 23:24


    所谓的民主，就是表明上看起来是民主，实质上是少数精英掌权。

权利在少部分人手里，监督就是个屁了，屁个作用都起不了。

在西方政治学理念中，自由和民主本身就是两个对立的观点。自由的理念针对的是共和，而非民主。

即便在美国，大陆会议的那群联邦党人，即美国的开创者也是极端厌恶民主。拿美国高等法院的圣经——《美国联邦党人宪章》来说，其中阐述民主最典型的一句即：民主是万恶之源，是引发暴民政治的导火索。而联邦党人在美国崇尚的是暴民政治，但这群真正的美利坚精英却长期忽视对屁民的忽悠，最终为暴民政治所推翻，而联邦党精英中的精英汉米尔顿，也被当时的美国副总统打死。

联邦党人之所以被暴民政治被推翻，其中的导火索是联邦党人自始至终反对发动1812年美英战争，而这次战争恰恰又是屁民所发动的。结果是典型的强奸不成反被日，华盛顿被英军攻破，顺便还被英军烧了总统府。可见，让屁民民主了，是会出大问题的。而联邦党人的理想，即精英政治，最后被美国第三任总统杰弗逊给破坏了，直到1861年南北战争之后，林肯才重拾联邦党精英的理想。而恰恰正是重拾这个理想，美国才步入了高速发展的大开发时代。

        我上楼的文字是抄网上的。我对网上流传这句话有些疑惑，于是就去查了一下。网上流传说法是《美国联邦党人宪章》，但我查了一下，没有这样一个宪章，只有《联邦党人文集》。以下是wiki上找到的：

《联邦党人文集》或稱《聯邦論》、《聯邦主義議文集》（Federalist Papers），是18世纪80年代数位美国政治家在制定美国宪法的过程中所写作的有关美国宪法和联邦制度的评论文章的合集，共收有85篇文章。这些文章最早连载于纽约地区的报纸，之后在1788年，首次出版了合集，书名为“联邦党人”（The Federalist）。此書主要对美国宪法和美国政府的运作原理进行了剖析和阐述，是研究美国宪法的最重要的历史文献之一。

我又在这些文集中以ochlocracy（暴民政治）一词搜索，找到的几处论述都没有这句话，而且也没这个意思。统一的论述是，民主如果没有正确的领导，容易走向暴民政治。

如：
OCHLOCRACY. A government where the authority is in the hands of the multitude; the abuse of a democracy.

The above definitions are of pure nature; note that the United States is suppose to have a Representative Democracy; please also note an Ochlocracy (mobocracy) is an abuse of a democracy which is in the hands of the masses; further note that an Aristo-democracy is a government put in the hands of an aristocratic (privileged) few.

不知您能否找到原文出处？

民主是暴民政治，是万恶之源。

去搜索下这句话出自哪里。
momoranshi 发表于 2011-2-21 12:05

        我上楼的文字是抄网上的。我对网上流传这句话有些疑惑，于是就去查了一下。网上流传说法是《美国联邦党人宪章》，但我查了一下，没有这样一个宪章，只有《联邦党人文集》。以下是wiki上找到的：

《联邦党人文集》或稱《聯邦論》、《聯邦主義議文集》（Federalist Papers），是18世纪80年代数位美国政治家在制定美国宪法的过程中所写作的有关美国宪法和联邦制度的评论文章的合集，共收有85篇文章。这些文章最早连载于纽约地区的报纸，之后在1788年，首次出版了合集，书名为“联邦党人”（The Federalist）。此書主要对美国宪法和美国政府的运作原理进行了剖析和阐述，是研究美国宪法的最重要的历史文献之一。

我又在这些文集中以ochlocracy（暴民政治）一词搜索，找到的几处论述都没有这句话，而且也没这个意思。统一的论述是，民主如果没有正确的领导，容易走向暴民政治。

如：
OCHLOCRACY. A government where the authority is in the hands of the multitude; the abuse of a democracy.

The above definitions are of pure nature; note that the United States is suppose to have a Representative Democracy; please also note an Ochlocracy (mobocracy) is an abuse of a democracy which is in the hands of the masses; further note that an Aristo-democracy is a government put in the hands of an aristocratic (privileged) few.

不知您能否找到原文出处？

不过倒是找到了一些美国宪法创始人对民主的评论，挺有意思的。

"...
From this view of the subject it may be concluded that a pure democracy, by which I mean a society consisting of a small number of citizens, who assemble and administer the government in person, can admit of no cure for the mischiefs of faction.  A common passion or interest will, in almost every case, be felt by a majority of the whole; a communication and concert result from the form of government itself; and there is nothing to check the inducements to sacrifice the weaker party or an obnoxious individual.  Hence it is that such democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths.  Theoretic politicians, who have patronized this species of government, have erroneously supposed that by reducing mankind to a perfect equality in their political rights, they would, at the same time, be perfectly equalized and assimilated in their possessions, their opinions, and their passions."
— essay published in 1787 in the New York "Daily Advertiser";  signed "Publius"
注：《联邦党人文集》的作者包括詹姆斯·麦迪逊、亚历山大·汉密尔顿、约翰·杰伊。他们使用了普布利乌斯（Publius）这个笔名。以上这段文字出自联邦党人文集第十篇（Federalist Paper #10），应该是詹姆斯·麦迪逊写的。

"Remember democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide."
— John Adams, letter to John Taylor, April 15, 1814

"Democracy will soon degenerate into an anarchy, such an anarchy that every man will do what is right in his own eyes and no man's life or property or reputation or liberty will be secure, and every one of these will soon mould itself into a system of subordination of all the moral virtues and intellectual abilities, all the powers of wealth, beauty, wit and science, to the wanton pleasures, the capricious will, and the execrable cruelty of one or a very few."
— An Essay on Man's Lust for Power, August 29, 1763
注：这个是John Adams写的。

不过倒是找到了一些美国宪法创始人对民主的评论，挺有意思的。

"...
From this view of the subject it may be concluded that a pure democracy, by which I mean a society consisting of a small number of citizens, who assemble and administer the government in person, can admit of no cure for the mischiefs of faction.  A common passion or interest will, in almost every case, be felt by a majority of the whole; a communication and concert result from the form of government itself; and there is nothing to check the inducements to sacrifice the weaker party or an obnoxious individual.  Hence it is that such democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths.  Theoretic politicians, who have patronized this species of government, have erroneously supposed that by reducing mankind to a perfect equality in their political rights, they would, at the same time, be perfectly equalized and assimilated in their possessions, their opinions, and their passions."
— essay published in 1787 in the New York "Daily Advertiser";  signed "Publius"
注：《联邦党人文集》的作者包括詹姆斯·麦迪逊、亚历山大·汉密尔顿、约翰·杰伊。他们使用了普布利乌斯（Publius）这个笔名。以上这段文字出自联邦党人文集第十篇（Federalist Paper #10），应该是詹姆斯·麦迪逊写的。

"Remember democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide."
— John Adams, letter to John Taylor, April 15, 1814

"Democracy will soon degenerate into an anarchy, such an anarchy that every man will do what is right in his own eyes and no man's life or property or reputation or liberty will be secure, and every one of these will soon mould itself into a system of subordination of all the moral virtues and intellectual abilities, all the powers of wealth, beauty, wit and science, to the wanton pleasures, the capricious will, and the execrable cruelty of one or a very few."
— An Essay on Man's Lust for Power, August 29, 1763
注：这个是John Adams写的。

回复 9# playfish

“民主如果没有正确的领导，容易走向暴民政治”！纵观世界近代史这样的事情太多了。

绝对的民主,绝对的暴力

f22 发表于 2011-2-21 20:05


    这个问题越看越有意思。美国政治理论书籍里这样评价几种政治体制
        1. Monarchy（君主制） --> Tyranny （专制，暴政）
        2. Aristocracy （贵族政治）--> Oligarchy （寡头政治）
        3. Democracy（民主） --> Ochlocracy (mob rule).（暴民政治）
这是柏拉图政治理论对几种制度的演化描述。

楼主5毛而已。

故意混稀视听…… 让一些小屁孩选择简单的去处事。

black5 发表于 2011-2-21 23:31


    每当遭遇这种话题时，我支持谈风月