超级军网【译文-中文】中国隐形战机相关评论 （转帖爬山虎）
来源：百度文库 编辑：超级军网 时间：2024/04/28 08:57:46
tangoviking wrote:
Could be a view in China that for the resources they now put into developing a costly
stealth jet it has to be able to provide high endurance for the air defense role I.E
long patrol times and larger weapons loads. Because perhaps they do not see the
possibility to dramatically mass produce this type of jet today. Seeing how many they
would need for national (and regional) operations.
Just 200 of these with Mach2+ capability and long endurance, plus a lot of BVR-missiles
onboard, coupled with a sizeable AESA would not be a welcomed opponent for a foreign
airforce that has always seen itself as masters of the airspace domain anywhere in the
world.
The lower cost, short range single-engine FCA will be next...
12/27/2010 6:17 AM CST
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在天朝投入如此多的资源于隐形飞机上之后，丝带必须能保证其在空中防卫方面的持久力，即较长滞
空时间和大载弹量，因为空军目前不太可能大规模量产这种飞机，而他们在国家间（和区域间）的各
类行动又急需此类装备。
仅仅有200架这种航速超2马赫、续航力强、配有大量超视距导弹、有强大的相控阵雷达制导的飞机，
可是不够对手看的哦。人家美帝可是自视为世界航空工业的总瓢把子呢~
往后的将会是廉价，短程、单发的未来轻型战斗机...
tangoviking wrote:
Another one Bill.. small but a slightly more lined-up sideview. Sry no credit.
12/27/2010 6:47 AM CST
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Bill，这是另一张照片...小了点但是更平行一些的侧面图。不保证可信度~
tangoviking wrote:
Oh and the canopy is down on that photo. Seems to be a row of people standing in the
background too. Test run?
12/27/2010 6:59 AM CST
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囧，这张照片里降落伞（座舱罩？看不到图，不确定说的是哪一部分）已经放下来了。看来也有许多
围观群众站在后排啊。是试飞？
Marcase wrote:
Nice catch Bill and tangoviking.
It has indeed a very similar shape to the original JAST design, and if it does has a
Lambda-type wing (ie optimized for "turn & burn" maneuvering) it could be seen as a
Chinese PAKFA-type interceptor. Perhaps to provide a long-range land-based CAP umbrella
as the aircraft carrier works up.
Big nose for a big AESA btw.
China usually adopts a block approach in (defense) systems, which means successive
production runs show steady incremental improvements. So I wouldn't be surprised to see
a stealthy "F/A" strike-fighter next and ultimately an "FB" type bomber.
The PLAAF still lacks enough interdiction strike (Su-30) and strategic bomber aircraft
(obsolete Xian H-6/Badger). I expect the Jian-11/Su-27 Flankers production will ramp up
soon, so the next logical step would be to extend the deep strike capability after this
J-20 has proven itself as a good base platform.
But this is all pure pre-morning coffee speculation of course.
12/27/2010 7:01 AM CST
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Bill、tangoviking，乃们拍的很给力。
丝带看上去确实很像原本JAST（联合先进攻击技术）的设计，要不是它有个拉姆达型机翼（即近战格
斗机动性最优化设计）它就是个天朝版的PAKFA型拦截机。也许是当航妈行动时为她提供一个远程陆
基战斗机巡逻队保护网。
当然还有个远程相控阵雷达。
中国在防御系统方面通常采取整体性的思路，也就是说有了稳定的逐步改善，才会不停的大规模量产
。所以如果接下来天朝出了隐形的歼击攻击机、战斗轰炸机，我也不会惊讶的。
PLA空军目前仍然缺乏足够的拦截机（苏30）和战略轰炸机（已过时的西飞产 H-6和獾型）。我希望
歼11和苏27能加速量产，如果丝带确实给力，那空军的下一步就是加强纵深打击能力了。
当然这都还是预想而已。
Marcase wrote:
Just now wondering if this would be a dynamite sales pitch for an Indian JSF...!
12/27/2010 7:04 AM CST
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我就想知道丝带会不会掀起印度对联合攻击机的狂热购买潮……！
andrei_sh wrote:
Funny thing to see is that Russian VVS Red Star insignia on the vertical tails. Any
suggestions to explain this, apart from an obvious one that this is a stupid fake?
12/27/2010 7:16 AM CST
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笑死人了，这飞机尾翼那边居然有俄罗斯VVS的红星标记！这不摆明了黑丝是个愚蠢的山寨么？
Marcase wrote:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/91/Roundel_of_the_Peoples_Liberation_Arm
y_Air_Force.svg
12/27/2010 7:27 AM CST
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（一个link，免翻）
John S wrote:
"...and at this point I'm seeing a "lambda" wing planform, seen ... with a single
straight leading edge and a kinked trailing edge. It first appeared on McDonnell Douglas
JAST studies in the early 1990s."
I do believe the F-101 Voodoo predates the 1990s by a few decades.
But it was a McDonnell product, sans Douglas...
12/27/2010 7:29 AM CST
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“...此时我看到了拉姆达机翼平面图，机翼前缘直而后缘弯...它首先由麦道公司在90年代初在JAST
（F-35从中衍生而来）中提出。”
我坚信F-101这种老怪物即使是在90年代也是独领风骚呢！
但它是麦克唐纳出产的东东，当时（麦）可还没跟道格拉斯合并……
tangoviking wrote:
@andrei_sh , PLA star. Yellow and Red.
12/27/2010 7:31 AM CST
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@andrei_sh, 这星星是PLA的标志，红黄两色。
Bill Sweetman wrote:
The Voodoo wasn't that stealthy... but I wonder whether the JAST wing was inspired by
it. It's a good way to get proper edge alignments with a lift distribution that's a bit
like a trapezoidal swept wing.
12/27/2010 7:44 AM CST
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Voodoo不够隐形...但我怀疑JAST式的机翼可能就是受它启发而来的。
这样的话可以通过这种机翼边缘的设置，使得飞机获得很好的升力，有点像梯形掠翼的作用。
Firefox wrote:
The best Christmass present ever. The day the fly it, I will start studying Chinese.
12/27/2010 8:22 AM CST
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（这可真是我收到的）最好的圣诞礼物了！哪天丝带真在天上飞了，我就开始学中文。
andrei_sh wrote:
Thanks, Marcase. I do know what PLAAF insignia looks like. Tangoviking, I'm not sure
anybody can tell the color of the thin outline from the distance. But you forgot about
the red ribbon detail in the Chenese roundel. http://www.chinatoday.com/arm/index.htm
12/27/2010 8:23 AM CST
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谢啦，Marcase。我当然知道PLA的空军标志长啥样。Tangoviking，我不确定在远处还有人能清晰的
分辨出标志上那细细一圈的颜色。不过你忘记了一个细节，中国军徽有条红带。
http://www.chinatoday.com/arm/index.htm
andrei_sh wrote:
Nobody will sell the 117S engines to Chinese, for the next 10 years at least. Our
Chinese brothers may keep dreamin.
12/27/2010 8:43 AM CST
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最少未来10年都不会有人把117S的发动机卖给TG的。我们的中国大兄弟们就做梦去吧~
David Sullivan wrote:
This makes sense if they have airborne surveilance equal or better to Global Hawk,
missiles equal or better than AIM-120, jammers equal or better than EA-18 and pilots
equal to Red Flag or NAS Fallon. Otherwise, they are just targets.
12/27/2010 10:40 AM CST
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如果他们有和全球鹰一样好的空中无线监控系统，不弱于AIM-120的导弹，好过EA-18的干扰发射器，
有跟美国空军红旗军演和海军NAS Fallon基地练出来的那样的老鸟，丝带才能算有用。否则就是空中
弱鸡。
BowlWeavil wrote:
We can all be sure Bill and his Australian internet buddies will be ready to crown this
aircraft the world's most deadly as soon as a clear picture of it emerges. (Assuming we
have to wait that long.)
12/27/2010 11:28 AM CST
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一旦丝带的清晰果照闪亮登场（可能都不用等到那时候！），我敢担保Bill和他的澳洲网友们肯定会
跳出来把它捧成大杀器之王的！
ghemago wrote:
Can't get the Ella or Memorex joke...
Can you help this non native english speaking member?
12/27/2010 11:32 AM CST
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不太明白你的Ella Fitzgerald或者梅莫雷克斯的笑话……
能不能给非英语母语的介绍下？
Bill Sweetman wrote:
Classy first post, BW. Come back any time you feel like contributing something useful.
12/27/2010 11:34 AM CST
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BW，乃的处女群嘲就挺给力的嘛！下次如果你肚子里有了干货，欢迎随时来分享~
ghemago wrote:
David S, you are over relaxed and that's the start of most failures...
12/27/2010 11:35 AM CST
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David S，骄兵必败....
Bill Sweetman wrote:
"Is it live, or is it Memorex?" was a slogan for cassette tapes, back in the far-off
days when there were such things, and Ella Fitzgerald was featured in the Memorex ads.
12/27/2010 11:37 AM CST
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“这是直播，还是梅莫雷克斯（美国品牌）？”这是在磁带还存在的很久很久以前，某磁带厂家的一句广告语，Ella Fitzgerald出演了那个广告。
jetcal1 wrote:
Time will tell. If it's real and not an evolutionary dead end, we'll be seeing more of
it. The questions are:
Can China come up with an engine sufficient for the airframe to reach its potential?
Are the avionics/fire control stealthy enough?
Will it end up like the B-2 with only a few built?
Could this be the final incentive for DoD to sell the F-22 to Japan?
And just to plug in a F-35 question;
Could this this be an opportunity for LMCO to kill the F-35 and put the F-22 back into
production? After all - if this is the real deal, the whole projected threat
scenario/schedule may have just gone out the window.
12/27/2010 11:40 AM CST
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时间会证明一切的。如果这是真的，而且会继续发展下去，我们会看到更多的东东。
现在的问题是：
中国能不能生产制造出可以使飞机充分发挥自身潜能的发动机？
丝带的航电和火控设备够不够隐形？
它会像B-2一样，产量稀少吗？
它会最终促使国防部向泥红国出售F-22吗？
再问个F-35相关的：
丝带的出现，会不会使得洛克希德停产F-35而重新开始生产F-22？毕竟如果丝带是真的，那F-35所针
对的整个所谓“假想威胁情形”也就不现实了。
============以上为Nicole翻译，因为有急事，我的部分晚上补全，见谅==============
BowlWeavil wrote:
Come on Bill, it looks fast, it has canards, and it isn't from Lockheed. If this isn't right up your alley then nothing is.
12/27/2010 11:49 AM CST
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得了吧，Bill。它看起来速度很快，有鸭翼，不是来自洛克希德。如果这都不和你味口的话，估计没有什么能了。
Harrier wrote:
The one thing that strikes me is that the main undercarriage design looks horrible, with big doors scraping the runway and long, stalky legs splayed out at quite an angle. Reminds me of TSR.2, which is not a great u/c design to mimic, although even that didn't dangle its doors in harms way.
12/27/2010 11:54 AM CST
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令我感到震惊的一点是主起落架的设计很恐怖。门大的都快刮到跑道了，而长又细的腿以相当大的角度支开。让我想起TSR.2，那实在不是个好的模仿对象，何况连TSR.2也没有将起落架舱门设计成那样。
tangoviking wrote:
@Harrier
I think the big doors you're refering to is actually a man in white coverall?
Something I've noticed is the lack of fire extinguishers or fire-trucks.
12/27/2010 12:14 PM CST
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我觉得你所说的巨大的门实际上是个穿白工作服的人？
我注意到的，是附近没有灭火器或者是消防车。
mupp wrote:
It's had a news bit on CCTV (PRC state TV)...Might be part of the "bring it out to the public" roadshow
The Russians flew the PT PAK/FA almost a year ago, this might be a "hey we have one too" moment.
12/27/2010 12:28 PM CST
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曾经在CCTV中就有过相关信息披露。。。可能是在某种“走近大众”巡演节目里
俄罗斯在差不多一年以前试飞了PAK/FA原型机，这次可能是有点类似于在说“喂，我们也有”。
Rick-Joe wrote:
Bill, when you say "But ask yourself: why would China need or want a short-range stealth aircraft? Any targets with defenses that call for that capability are a long way from the mainland. Also, the bigger that the aircraft is, the more likely it is that it is a bomber as much as, if not more than, a fighter."
Bill，你说“而是问问你自己：为什么中国需要或者渴望得到短程隐形飞机？任何一个需要战机具备隐形能力的作战目标都远离大陆。同样，飞机越大，它是歼轰机的概率就越大，更可能就是轰炸机。”
-- you're implying the J-20 is a big aircraft right? In some ways I read it, it seems like you're imlpying the complete opposite.
这表明你想暗示J-20是一架大飞机么？可按我的理解，似乎你想说的完全不是这么回事。
Also, it's doubtful if the Russian's have supplied 117S or not -- regardless of what Jane's says, the Russians haven't been bragging on about this as they usually do with China's (now rare) military purchases. (Look at the way they proclaim the PLAAF is going to purchase the Su-35 where nothing of the sort has come from the Chinese side)
同样的，俄罗斯是否提供了117S也值得怀疑--别管简氏怎么说，俄罗斯这次没有如往常那样，对中国的军购（现在已经很少了）大肆宣扬。（看看当中国方面对空军采购苏35还没有任何消息的时候，俄罗斯是如何高调宣扬的）
Also, on the length -- remember that Asians are inherently slightly shorter than Caucasians so if you're measuring through the rough heights of the sillouhettes you may wanna scale down a bit.
还有，关于长度问题--记着，亚洲人天生比高加索人要矮一些，所以如果你是通过侧高来粗略估算的话，或许你该把你的估值调小一点。
Solomon wrote:
strange timing on all this...
first we have this stealth fighter being shown....next we here that the anti-ship ballistic missile has reached IOC...
seems mighty strange for news of a rising China to be hitting all before a new Congress is to be seated with a meat axe aimed at the Pentagon...
i'm just sayin'
12/27/2010 5:30 PM CST
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所有一切的时机都很奇怪。。。
我们先是看到外泄的隐形飞机照片。。。然后我们听说反舰弹道导弹已经具备初期作战能力。。。
在一个对五角大楼虎视眈眈的国会即将产生之际，到处听到关于一个冉冉上升的中国的消息还真是奇怪。。。
我也就说说而已。
RSF wrote:
The PLAAF have been relatively open about their plans for China's stealth fighter programs, so we should really go back to prior statements to understand the intended capabilities of this aircraft.
中国空军对于中国隐形飞机项目的消息已经相对开放了，所以我们应该回到最初的话题，搞清楚这架飞机的建造意图。
The F-22 has been the bench mark that Chengdu and Shenyang designers have been targeting from the beginning. Openly PLAAF officials have talked of the program being based on four performance goals, also known as 4S, these being Stealth, Supercruise, Super-Maneuverability, and Short Take-Off.
F-22是成飞和沈飞的设计人员从最初就瞄准的标志性设计。中国空军官员曾公开谈到这个项目的设计目标是基于四个方面的要求，即通称的4S，分别是隐形、超音速巡航、超机动性以及短距起降。
So looking at these known metrics, I would respectfully argue against the statement of Marcase that the emergence of this Chinese stealth fighter is a good selling point for the F-35 (for India). Rather this supports the reactivation of the F-22 production line, and the need to develop the Raptor as it should have been vs. spending billions of dollars on the JSF, which will have limited value against the heavy twin engine stealth fighters now being developed by the Russians/India, and now China.
那么基于这些已知标准，鄙人对Marcase关于中国隐形战机的崛起将成为促成F-35买给印度的好理由的说法表示反对。继续投入巨资在JSF上意义不大，因为其在面对俄罗斯/印度和现在中国研制的重型双引擎隐形战机时作用有限，与其浪费数十亿美元在此，不如重启F-22生产线，将其发展到“猛禽”本应达到的程度。
This plane is a long way from being ready for production so we still have time. However, reviewing the statements of He Weirong Deputy Commander of the Chinese Air Force last year, this fighter is supposed to be operational by 2015, so a change course is needed NOW.
J-20距离大规模生产还有很长的路要走，所以我们仍然有时间。然而，中国空军副司令员何为荣去年说J-20预计于2015年服役，思及此言论，我们的计划或许需要立即有些改变了。
12/27/2010 9:30 PM CST
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Solomon wrote:
a whole lot needs to be said actually Horde.
实际上可说的很多，Horde。
if this is real then not only are the readers here at Aviation Week being caught flat footed but also, it would seem our defense establishment.
如果这消息是真的，那么不仅我们这些航空周刊的读者会惊慌失措，我们的国防部门也会如此。
but its not only the JSF that might need to be re-examined but the defense stance of every Western Nation...especially those in Europe.
而且不但JSF项目需要重新审视，每一个西方国家的防御状态也需要重新评估，尤其是欧洲国家。
the strength of the JSF lies not only in its stealth but more importantly in its sensor fusion. while i'm not sure that this Chinese "super" jet has those things (or for that matter if its even real) but what about legacy airframes that don't?
JSF的威力不仅在于它的隐形性，更重要的，是它的传感器融合技术。我不清楚中国的超级战机是否具备这些能力（而且也难以确定这消息到底是不是真的），但那些不具备这些能力的传统战机怎么办？
plans to simply upgrade F-15, 16, 18 fighters for the US get thrown out the window. Typhoons, Rafales and Gripens are also not even remotely viable.
将F-15,16,18简单的升级下的计划可以忽略不谈了，台风、飓风、鹰狮连生存的几率都很小。
while it might suit your subject line Horde ole' boy to claim that this marks the end of the JSF, it could be the reverse...it might push an even larger buy.
它也许会如Horde所说的那样标志着JSF的结束，它也许会导致相反的结果。。。J-20的出现或许会导致F-35订单量的增长。
again, i have serious doubts about this airplane being real but its a great present to the DoD and the threat of it will keep the Pentagon rolling in cash even though we're in tough economic times.
12/27/2010 10:58 PM CST
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再次重申，我对于这架飞机是否是真的表示严重怀疑，但其出现对于国防部来说是一件好事，它将使得五角大楼即便在如此困难的经济状况中也得到大量的资金。tangoviking wrote:
Could be a view in China that for the resources they now put into developing a costly
stealth jet it has to be able to provide high endurance for the air defense role I.E
long patrol times and larger weapons loads. Because perhaps they do not see the
possibility to dramatically mass produce this type of jet today. Seeing how many they
would need for national (and regional) operations.
Just 200 of these with Mach2+ capability and long endurance, plus a lot of BVR-missiles
onboard, coupled with a sizeable AESA would not be a welcomed opponent for a foreign
airforce that has always seen itself as masters of the airspace domain anywhere in the
world.
The lower cost, short range single-engine FCA will be next...
12/27/2010 6:17 AM CST
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在天朝投入如此多的资源于隐形飞机上之后，丝带必须能保证其在空中防卫方面的持久力，即较长滞
空时间和大载弹量，因为空军目前不太可能大规模量产这种飞机，而他们在国家间（和区域间）的各
类行动又急需此类装备。
仅仅有200架这种航速超2马赫、续航力强、配有大量超视距导弹、有强大的相控阵雷达制导的飞机，
可是不够对手看的哦。人家美帝可是自视为世界航空工业的总瓢把子呢~
往后的将会是廉价，短程、单发的未来轻型战斗机...
tangoviking wrote:
Another one Bill.. small but a slightly more lined-up sideview. Sry no credit.
12/27/2010 6:47 AM CST
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Bill，这是另一张照片...小了点但是更平行一些的侧面图。不保证可信度~
tangoviking wrote:
Oh and the canopy is down on that photo. Seems to be a row of people standing in the
background too. Test run?
12/27/2010 6:59 AM CST
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囧，这张照片里降落伞（座舱罩？看不到图，不确定说的是哪一部分）已经放下来了。看来也有许多
围观群众站在后排啊。是试飞？
Marcase wrote:
Nice catch Bill and tangoviking.
It has indeed a very similar shape to the original JAST design, and if it does has a
Lambda-type wing (ie optimized for "turn & burn" maneuvering) it could be seen as a
Chinese PAKFA-type interceptor. Perhaps to provide a long-range land-based CAP umbrella
as the aircraft carrier works up.
Big nose for a big AESA btw.
China usually adopts a block approach in (defense) systems, which means successive
production runs show steady incremental improvements. So I wouldn't be surprised to see
a stealthy "F/A" strike-fighter next and ultimately an "FB" type bomber.
The PLAAF still lacks enough interdiction strike (Su-30) and strategic bomber aircraft
(obsolete Xian H-6/Badger). I expect the Jian-11/Su-27 Flankers production will ramp up
soon, so the next logical step would be to extend the deep strike capability after this
J-20 has proven itself as a good base platform.
But this is all pure pre-morning coffee speculation of course.
12/27/2010 7:01 AM CST
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Bill、tangoviking，乃们拍的很给力。
丝带看上去确实很像原本JAST（联合先进攻击技术）的设计，要不是它有个拉姆达型机翼（即近战格
斗机动性最优化设计）它就是个天朝版的PAKFA型拦截机。也许是当航妈行动时为她提供一个远程陆
基战斗机巡逻队保护网。
当然还有个远程相控阵雷达。
中国在防御系统方面通常采取整体性的思路，也就是说有了稳定的逐步改善，才会不停的大规模量产
。所以如果接下来天朝出了隐形的歼击攻击机、战斗轰炸机，我也不会惊讶的。
PLA空军目前仍然缺乏足够的拦截机（苏30）和战略轰炸机（已过时的西飞产 H-6和獾型）。我希望
歼11和苏27能加速量产，如果丝带确实给力，那空军的下一步就是加强纵深打击能力了。
当然这都还是预想而已。
Marcase wrote:
Just now wondering if this would be a dynamite sales pitch for an Indian JSF...!
12/27/2010 7:04 AM CST
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我就想知道丝带会不会掀起印度对联合攻击机的狂热购买潮……！
andrei_sh wrote:
Funny thing to see is that Russian VVS Red Star insignia on the vertical tails. Any
suggestions to explain this, apart from an obvious one that this is a stupid fake?
12/27/2010 7:16 AM CST
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笑死人了，这飞机尾翼那边居然有俄罗斯VVS的红星标记！这不摆明了黑丝是个愚蠢的山寨么？
Marcase wrote:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/91/Roundel_of_the_Peoples_Liberation_Arm
y_Air_Force.svg
12/27/2010 7:27 AM CST
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（一个link，免翻）
John S wrote:
"...and at this point I'm seeing a "lambda" wing planform, seen ... with a single
straight leading edge and a kinked trailing edge. It first appeared on McDonnell Douglas
JAST studies in the early 1990s."
I do believe the F-101 Voodoo predates the 1990s by a few decades.
But it was a McDonnell product, sans Douglas...
12/27/2010 7:29 AM CST
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“...此时我看到了拉姆达机翼平面图，机翼前缘直而后缘弯...它首先由麦道公司在90年代初在JAST
（F-35从中衍生而来）中提出。”
我坚信F-101这种老怪物即使是在90年代也是独领风骚呢！
但它是麦克唐纳出产的东东，当时（麦）可还没跟道格拉斯合并……
tangoviking wrote:
@andrei_sh , PLA star. Yellow and Red.
12/27/2010 7:31 AM CST
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@andrei_sh, 这星星是PLA的标志，红黄两色。
Bill Sweetman wrote:
The Voodoo wasn't that stealthy... but I wonder whether the JAST wing was inspired by
it. It's a good way to get proper edge alignments with a lift distribution that's a bit
like a trapezoidal swept wing.
12/27/2010 7:44 AM CST
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Voodoo不够隐形...但我怀疑JAST式的机翼可能就是受它启发而来的。
这样的话可以通过这种机翼边缘的设置，使得飞机获得很好的升力，有点像梯形掠翼的作用。
Firefox wrote:
The best Christmass present ever. The day the fly it, I will start studying Chinese.
12/27/2010 8:22 AM CST
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（这可真是我收到的）最好的圣诞礼物了！哪天丝带真在天上飞了，我就开始学中文。
andrei_sh wrote:
Thanks, Marcase. I do know what PLAAF insignia looks like. Tangoviking, I'm not sure
anybody can tell the color of the thin outline from the distance. But you forgot about
the red ribbon detail in the Chenese roundel. http://www.chinatoday.com/arm/index.htm
12/27/2010 8:23 AM CST
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谢啦，Marcase。我当然知道PLA的空军标志长啥样。Tangoviking，我不确定在远处还有人能清晰的
分辨出标志上那细细一圈的颜色。不过你忘记了一个细节，中国军徽有条红带。
http://www.chinatoday.com/arm/index.htm
andrei_sh wrote:
Nobody will sell the 117S engines to Chinese, for the next 10 years at least. Our
Chinese brothers may keep dreamin.
12/27/2010 8:43 AM CST
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最少未来10年都不会有人把117S的发动机卖给TG的。我们的中国大兄弟们就做梦去吧~
David Sullivan wrote:
This makes sense if they have airborne surveilance equal or better to Global Hawk,
missiles equal or better than AIM-120, jammers equal or better than EA-18 and pilots
equal to Red Flag or NAS Fallon. Otherwise, they are just targets.
12/27/2010 10:40 AM CST
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如果他们有和全球鹰一样好的空中无线监控系统，不弱于AIM-120的导弹，好过EA-18的干扰发射器，
有跟美国空军红旗军演和海军NAS Fallon基地练出来的那样的老鸟，丝带才能算有用。否则就是空中
弱鸡。
BowlWeavil wrote:
We can all be sure Bill and his Australian internet buddies will be ready to crown this
aircraft the world's most deadly as soon as a clear picture of it emerges. (Assuming we
have to wait that long.)
12/27/2010 11:28 AM CST
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一旦丝带的清晰果照闪亮登场（可能都不用等到那时候！），我敢担保Bill和他的澳洲网友们肯定会
跳出来把它捧成大杀器之王的！
ghemago wrote:
Can't get the Ella or Memorex joke...
Can you help this non native english speaking member?
12/27/2010 11:32 AM CST
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不太明白你的Ella Fitzgerald或者梅莫雷克斯的笑话……
能不能给非英语母语的介绍下？
Bill Sweetman wrote:
Classy first post, BW. Come back any time you feel like contributing something useful.
12/27/2010 11:34 AM CST
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BW，乃的处女群嘲就挺给力的嘛！下次如果你肚子里有了干货，欢迎随时来分享~
ghemago wrote:
David S, you are over relaxed and that's the start of most failures...
12/27/2010 11:35 AM CST
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David S，骄兵必败....
Bill Sweetman wrote:
"Is it live, or is it Memorex?" was a slogan for cassette tapes, back in the far-off
days when there were such things, and Ella Fitzgerald was featured in the Memorex ads.
12/27/2010 11:37 AM CST
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“这是直播，还是梅莫雷克斯（美国品牌）？”这是在磁带还存在的很久很久以前，某磁带厂家的一句广告语，Ella Fitzgerald出演了那个广告。
jetcal1 wrote:
Time will tell. If it's real and not an evolutionary dead end, we'll be seeing more of
it. The questions are:
Can China come up with an engine sufficient for the airframe to reach its potential?
Are the avionics/fire control stealthy enough?
Will it end up like the B-2 with only a few built?
Could this be the final incentive for DoD to sell the F-22 to Japan?
And just to plug in a F-35 question;
Could this this be an opportunity for LMCO to kill the F-35 and put the F-22 back into
production? After all - if this is the real deal, the whole projected threat
scenario/schedule may have just gone out the window.
12/27/2010 11:40 AM CST
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时间会证明一切的。如果这是真的，而且会继续发展下去，我们会看到更多的东东。
现在的问题是：
中国能不能生产制造出可以使飞机充分发挥自身潜能的发动机？
丝带的航电和火控设备够不够隐形？
它会像B-2一样，产量稀少吗？
它会最终促使国防部向泥红国出售F-22吗？
再问个F-35相关的：
丝带的出现，会不会使得洛克希德停产F-35而重新开始生产F-22？毕竟如果丝带是真的，那F-35所针
对的整个所谓“假想威胁情形”也就不现实了。
============以上为Nicole翻译，因为有急事，我的部分晚上补全，见谅==============
BowlWeavil wrote:
Come on Bill, it looks fast, it has canards, and it isn't from Lockheed. If this isn't right up your alley then nothing is.
12/27/2010 11:49 AM CST
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得了吧，Bill。它看起来速度很快，有鸭翼，不是来自洛克希德。如果这都不和你味口的话，估计没有什么能了。
Harrier wrote:
The one thing that strikes me is that the main undercarriage design looks horrible, with big doors scraping the runway and long, stalky legs splayed out at quite an angle. Reminds me of TSR.2, which is not a great u/c design to mimic, although even that didn't dangle its doors in harms way.
12/27/2010 11:54 AM CST
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令我感到震惊的一点是主起落架的设计很恐怖。门大的都快刮到跑道了，而长又细的腿以相当大的角度支开。让我想起TSR.2，那实在不是个好的模仿对象，何况连TSR.2也没有将起落架舱门设计成那样。
tangoviking wrote:
@Harrier
I think the big doors you're refering to is actually a man in white coverall?
Something I've noticed is the lack of fire extinguishers or fire-trucks.
12/27/2010 12:14 PM CST
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我觉得你所说的巨大的门实际上是个穿白工作服的人？
我注意到的，是附近没有灭火器或者是消防车。
mupp wrote:
It's had a news bit on CCTV (PRC state TV)...Might be part of the "bring it out to the public" roadshow
The Russians flew the PT PAK/FA almost a year ago, this might be a "hey we have one too" moment.
12/27/2010 12:28 PM CST
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曾经在CCTV中就有过相关信息披露。。。可能是在某种“走近大众”巡演节目里
俄罗斯在差不多一年以前试飞了PAK/FA原型机，这次可能是有点类似于在说“喂，我们也有”。
Rick-Joe wrote:
Bill, when you say "But ask yourself: why would China need or want a short-range stealth aircraft? Any targets with defenses that call for that capability are a long way from the mainland. Also, the bigger that the aircraft is, the more likely it is that it is a bomber as much as, if not more than, a fighter."
Bill，你说“而是问问你自己：为什么中国需要或者渴望得到短程隐形飞机？任何一个需要战机具备隐形能力的作战目标都远离大陆。同样，飞机越大，它是歼轰机的概率就越大，更可能就是轰炸机。”
-- you're implying the J-20 is a big aircraft right? In some ways I read it, it seems like you're imlpying the complete opposite.
这表明你想暗示J-20是一架大飞机么？可按我的理解，似乎你想说的完全不是这么回事。
Also, it's doubtful if the Russian's have supplied 117S or not -- regardless of what Jane's says, the Russians haven't been bragging on about this as they usually do with China's (now rare) military purchases. (Look at the way they proclaim the PLAAF is going to purchase the Su-35 where nothing of the sort has come from the Chinese side)
同样的，俄罗斯是否提供了117S也值得怀疑--别管简氏怎么说，俄罗斯这次没有如往常那样，对中国的军购（现在已经很少了）大肆宣扬。（看看当中国方面对空军采购苏35还没有任何消息的时候，俄罗斯是如何高调宣扬的）
Also, on the length -- remember that Asians are inherently slightly shorter than Caucasians so if you're measuring through the rough heights of the sillouhettes you may wanna scale down a bit.
还有，关于长度问题--记着，亚洲人天生比高加索人要矮一些，所以如果你是通过侧高来粗略估算的话，或许你该把你的估值调小一点。
Solomon wrote:
strange timing on all this...
first we have this stealth fighter being shown....next we here that the anti-ship ballistic missile has reached IOC...
seems mighty strange for news of a rising China to be hitting all before a new Congress is to be seated with a meat axe aimed at the Pentagon...
i'm just sayin'
12/27/2010 5:30 PM CST
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所有一切的时机都很奇怪。。。
我们先是看到外泄的隐形飞机照片。。。然后我们听说反舰弹道导弹已经具备初期作战能力。。。
在一个对五角大楼虎视眈眈的国会即将产生之际，到处听到关于一个冉冉上升的中国的消息还真是奇怪。。。
我也就说说而已。
RSF wrote:
The PLAAF have been relatively open about their plans for China's stealth fighter programs, so we should really go back to prior statements to understand the intended capabilities of this aircraft.
中国空军对于中国隐形飞机项目的消息已经相对开放了，所以我们应该回到最初的话题，搞清楚这架飞机的建造意图。
The F-22 has been the bench mark that Chengdu and Shenyang designers have been targeting from the beginning. Openly PLAAF officials have talked of the program being based on four performance goals, also known as 4S, these being Stealth, Supercruise, Super-Maneuverability, and Short Take-Off.
F-22是成飞和沈飞的设计人员从最初就瞄准的标志性设计。中国空军官员曾公开谈到这个项目的设计目标是基于四个方面的要求，即通称的4S，分别是隐形、超音速巡航、超机动性以及短距起降。
So looking at these known metrics, I would respectfully argue against the statement of Marcase that the emergence of this Chinese stealth fighter is a good selling point for the F-35 (for India). Rather this supports the reactivation of the F-22 production line, and the need to develop the Raptor as it should have been vs. spending billions of dollars on the JSF, which will have limited value against the heavy twin engine stealth fighters now being developed by the Russians/India, and now China.
那么基于这些已知标准，鄙人对Marcase关于中国隐形战机的崛起将成为促成F-35买给印度的好理由的说法表示反对。继续投入巨资在JSF上意义不大，因为其在面对俄罗斯/印度和现在中国研制的重型双引擎隐形战机时作用有限，与其浪费数十亿美元在此，不如重启F-22生产线，将其发展到“猛禽”本应达到的程度。
This plane is a long way from being ready for production so we still have time. However, reviewing the statements of He Weirong Deputy Commander of the Chinese Air Force last year, this fighter is supposed to be operational by 2015, so a change course is needed NOW.
J-20距离大规模生产还有很长的路要走，所以我们仍然有时间。然而，中国空军副司令员何为荣去年说J-20预计于2015年服役，思及此言论，我们的计划或许需要立即有些改变了。
12/27/2010 9:30 PM CST
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Solomon wrote:
a whole lot needs to be said actually Horde.
实际上可说的很多，Horde。
if this is real then not only are the readers here at Aviation Week being caught flat footed but also, it would seem our defense establishment.
如果这消息是真的，那么不仅我们这些航空周刊的读者会惊慌失措，我们的国防部门也会如此。
but its not only the JSF that might need to be re-examined but the defense stance of every Western Nation...especially those in Europe.
而且不但JSF项目需要重新审视，每一个西方国家的防御状态也需要重新评估，尤其是欧洲国家。
the strength of the JSF lies not only in its stealth but more importantly in its sensor fusion. while i'm not sure that this Chinese "super" jet has those things (or for that matter if its even real) but what about legacy airframes that don't?
JSF的威力不仅在于它的隐形性，更重要的，是它的传感器融合技术。我不清楚中国的超级战机是否具备这些能力（而且也难以确定这消息到底是不是真的），但那些不具备这些能力的传统战机怎么办？
plans to simply upgrade F-15, 16, 18 fighters for the US get thrown out the window. Typhoons, Rafales and Gripens are also not even remotely viable.
将F-15,16,18简单的升级下的计划可以忽略不谈了，台风、飓风、鹰狮连生存的几率都很小。
while it might suit your subject line Horde ole' boy to claim that this marks the end of the JSF, it could be the reverse...it might push an even larger buy.
它也许会如Horde所说的那样标志着JSF的结束，它也许会导致相反的结果。。。J-20的出现或许会导致F-35订单量的增长。
again, i have serious doubts about this airplane being real but its a great present to the DoD and the threat of it will keep the Pentagon rolling in cash even though we're in tough economic times.
12/27/2010 10:58 PM CST
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再次重申，我对于这架飞机是否是真的表示严重怀疑，但其出现对于国防部来说是一件好事，它将使得五角大楼即便在如此困难的经济状况中也得到大量的资金。
Could be a view in China that for the resources they now put into developing a costly
stealth jet it has to be able to provide high endurance for the air defense role I.E
long patrol times and larger weapons loads. Because perhaps they do not see the
possibility to dramatically mass produce this type of jet today. Seeing how many they
would need for national (and regional) operations.
Just 200 of these with Mach2+ capability and long endurance, plus a lot of BVR-missiles
onboard, coupled with a sizeable AESA would not be a welcomed opponent for a foreign
airforce that has always seen itself as masters of the airspace domain anywhere in the
world.
The lower cost, short range single-engine FCA will be next...
12/27/2010 6:17 AM CST
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在天朝投入如此多的资源于隐形飞机上之后，丝带必须能保证其在空中防卫方面的持久力，即较长滞
空时间和大载弹量，因为空军目前不太可能大规模量产这种飞机，而他们在国家间（和区域间）的各
类行动又急需此类装备。
仅仅有200架这种航速超2马赫、续航力强、配有大量超视距导弹、有强大的相控阵雷达制导的飞机，
可是不够对手看的哦。人家美帝可是自视为世界航空工业的总瓢把子呢~
往后的将会是廉价，短程、单发的未来轻型战斗机...
tangoviking wrote:
Another one Bill.. small but a slightly more lined-up sideview. Sry no credit.
12/27/2010 6:47 AM CST
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Bill，这是另一张照片...小了点但是更平行一些的侧面图。不保证可信度~
tangoviking wrote:
Oh and the canopy is down on that photo. Seems to be a row of people standing in the
background too. Test run?
12/27/2010 6:59 AM CST
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囧，这张照片里降落伞（座舱罩？看不到图，不确定说的是哪一部分）已经放下来了。看来也有许多
围观群众站在后排啊。是试飞？
Marcase wrote:
Nice catch Bill and tangoviking.
It has indeed a very similar shape to the original JAST design, and if it does has a
Lambda-type wing (ie optimized for "turn & burn" maneuvering) it could be seen as a
Chinese PAKFA-type interceptor. Perhaps to provide a long-range land-based CAP umbrella
as the aircraft carrier works up.
Big nose for a big AESA btw.
China usually adopts a block approach in (defense) systems, which means successive
production runs show steady incremental improvements. So I wouldn't be surprised to see
a stealthy "F/A" strike-fighter next and ultimately an "FB" type bomber.
The PLAAF still lacks enough interdiction strike (Su-30) and strategic bomber aircraft
(obsolete Xian H-6/Badger). I expect the Jian-11/Su-27 Flankers production will ramp up
soon, so the next logical step would be to extend the deep strike capability after this
J-20 has proven itself as a good base platform.
But this is all pure pre-morning coffee speculation of course.
12/27/2010 7:01 AM CST
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Bill、tangoviking，乃们拍的很给力。
丝带看上去确实很像原本JAST（联合先进攻击技术）的设计，要不是它有个拉姆达型机翼（即近战格
斗机动性最优化设计）它就是个天朝版的PAKFA型拦截机。也许是当航妈行动时为她提供一个远程陆
基战斗机巡逻队保护网。
当然还有个远程相控阵雷达。
中国在防御系统方面通常采取整体性的思路，也就是说有了稳定的逐步改善，才会不停的大规模量产
。所以如果接下来天朝出了隐形的歼击攻击机、战斗轰炸机，我也不会惊讶的。
PLA空军目前仍然缺乏足够的拦截机（苏30）和战略轰炸机（已过时的西飞产 H-6和獾型）。我希望
歼11和苏27能加速量产，如果丝带确实给力，那空军的下一步就是加强纵深打击能力了。
当然这都还是预想而已。
Marcase wrote:
Just now wondering if this would be a dynamite sales pitch for an Indian JSF...!
12/27/2010 7:04 AM CST
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我就想知道丝带会不会掀起印度对联合攻击机的狂热购买潮……！
andrei_sh wrote:
Funny thing to see is that Russian VVS Red Star insignia on the vertical tails. Any
suggestions to explain this, apart from an obvious one that this is a stupid fake?
12/27/2010 7:16 AM CST
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笑死人了，这飞机尾翼那边居然有俄罗斯VVS的红星标记！这不摆明了黑丝是个愚蠢的山寨么？
Marcase wrote:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/91/Roundel_of_the_Peoples_Liberation_Arm
y_Air_Force.svg
12/27/2010 7:27 AM CST
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（一个link，免翻）
John S wrote:
"...and at this point I'm seeing a "lambda" wing planform, seen ... with a single
straight leading edge and a kinked trailing edge. It first appeared on McDonnell Douglas
JAST studies in the early 1990s."
I do believe the F-101 Voodoo predates the 1990s by a few decades.
But it was a McDonnell product, sans Douglas...
12/27/2010 7:29 AM CST
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“...此时我看到了拉姆达机翼平面图，机翼前缘直而后缘弯...它首先由麦道公司在90年代初在JAST
（F-35从中衍生而来）中提出。”
我坚信F-101这种老怪物即使是在90年代也是独领风骚呢！
但它是麦克唐纳出产的东东，当时（麦）可还没跟道格拉斯合并……
tangoviking wrote:
@andrei_sh , PLA star. Yellow and Red.
12/27/2010 7:31 AM CST
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@andrei_sh, 这星星是PLA的标志，红黄两色。
Bill Sweetman wrote:
The Voodoo wasn't that stealthy... but I wonder whether the JAST wing was inspired by
it. It's a good way to get proper edge alignments with a lift distribution that's a bit
like a trapezoidal swept wing.
12/27/2010 7:44 AM CST
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Voodoo不够隐形...但我怀疑JAST式的机翼可能就是受它启发而来的。
这样的话可以通过这种机翼边缘的设置，使得飞机获得很好的升力，有点像梯形掠翼的作用。
Firefox wrote:
The best Christmass present ever. The day the fly it, I will start studying Chinese.
12/27/2010 8:22 AM CST
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（这可真是我收到的）最好的圣诞礼物了！哪天丝带真在天上飞了，我就开始学中文。
andrei_sh wrote:
Thanks, Marcase. I do know what PLAAF insignia looks like. Tangoviking, I'm not sure
anybody can tell the color of the thin outline from the distance. But you forgot about
the red ribbon detail in the Chenese roundel. http://www.chinatoday.com/arm/index.htm
12/27/2010 8:23 AM CST
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谢啦，Marcase。我当然知道PLA的空军标志长啥样。Tangoviking，我不确定在远处还有人能清晰的
分辨出标志上那细细一圈的颜色。不过你忘记了一个细节，中国军徽有条红带。
http://www.chinatoday.com/arm/index.htm
andrei_sh wrote:
Nobody will sell the 117S engines to Chinese, for the next 10 years at least. Our
Chinese brothers may keep dreamin.
12/27/2010 8:43 AM CST
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最少未来10年都不会有人把117S的发动机卖给TG的。我们的中国大兄弟们就做梦去吧~
David Sullivan wrote:
This makes sense if they have airborne surveilance equal or better to Global Hawk,
missiles equal or better than AIM-120, jammers equal or better than EA-18 and pilots
equal to Red Flag or NAS Fallon. Otherwise, they are just targets.
12/27/2010 10:40 AM CST
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如果他们有和全球鹰一样好的空中无线监控系统，不弱于AIM-120的导弹，好过EA-18的干扰发射器，
有跟美国空军红旗军演和海军NAS Fallon基地练出来的那样的老鸟，丝带才能算有用。否则就是空中
弱鸡。
BowlWeavil wrote:
We can all be sure Bill and his Australian internet buddies will be ready to crown this
aircraft the world's most deadly as soon as a clear picture of it emerges. (Assuming we
have to wait that long.)
12/27/2010 11:28 AM CST
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一旦丝带的清晰果照闪亮登场（可能都不用等到那时候！），我敢担保Bill和他的澳洲网友们肯定会
跳出来把它捧成大杀器之王的！
ghemago wrote:
Can't get the Ella or Memorex joke...
Can you help this non native english speaking member?
12/27/2010 11:32 AM CST
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不太明白你的Ella Fitzgerald或者梅莫雷克斯的笑话……
能不能给非英语母语的介绍下？
Bill Sweetman wrote:
Classy first post, BW. Come back any time you feel like contributing something useful.
12/27/2010 11:34 AM CST
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BW，乃的处女群嘲就挺给力的嘛！下次如果你肚子里有了干货，欢迎随时来分享~
ghemago wrote:
David S, you are over relaxed and that's the start of most failures...
12/27/2010 11:35 AM CST
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David S，骄兵必败....
Bill Sweetman wrote:
"Is it live, or is it Memorex?" was a slogan for cassette tapes, back in the far-off
days when there were such things, and Ella Fitzgerald was featured in the Memorex ads.
12/27/2010 11:37 AM CST
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“这是直播，还是梅莫雷克斯（美国品牌）？”这是在磁带还存在的很久很久以前，某磁带厂家的一句广告语，Ella Fitzgerald出演了那个广告。
jetcal1 wrote:
Time will tell. If it's real and not an evolutionary dead end, we'll be seeing more of
it. The questions are:
Can China come up with an engine sufficient for the airframe to reach its potential?
Are the avionics/fire control stealthy enough?
Will it end up like the B-2 with only a few built?
Could this be the final incentive for DoD to sell the F-22 to Japan?
And just to plug in a F-35 question;
Could this this be an opportunity for LMCO to kill the F-35 and put the F-22 back into
production? After all - if this is the real deal, the whole projected threat
scenario/schedule may have just gone out the window.
12/27/2010 11:40 AM CST
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时间会证明一切的。如果这是真的，而且会继续发展下去，我们会看到更多的东东。
现在的问题是：
中国能不能生产制造出可以使飞机充分发挥自身潜能的发动机？
丝带的航电和火控设备够不够隐形？
它会像B-2一样，产量稀少吗？
它会最终促使国防部向泥红国出售F-22吗？
再问个F-35相关的：
丝带的出现，会不会使得洛克希德停产F-35而重新开始生产F-22？毕竟如果丝带是真的，那F-35所针
对的整个所谓“假想威胁情形”也就不现实了。
============以上为Nicole翻译，因为有急事，我的部分晚上补全，见谅==============
BowlWeavil wrote:
Come on Bill, it looks fast, it has canards, and it isn't from Lockheed. If this isn't right up your alley then nothing is.
12/27/2010 11:49 AM CST
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得了吧，Bill。它看起来速度很快，有鸭翼，不是来自洛克希德。如果这都不和你味口的话，估计没有什么能了。
Harrier wrote:
The one thing that strikes me is that the main undercarriage design looks horrible, with big doors scraping the runway and long, stalky legs splayed out at quite an angle. Reminds me of TSR.2, which is not a great u/c design to mimic, although even that didn't dangle its doors in harms way.
12/27/2010 11:54 AM CST
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令我感到震惊的一点是主起落架的设计很恐怖。门大的都快刮到跑道了，而长又细的腿以相当大的角度支开。让我想起TSR.2，那实在不是个好的模仿对象，何况连TSR.2也没有将起落架舱门设计成那样。
tangoviking wrote:
@Harrier
I think the big doors you're refering to is actually a man in white coverall?
Something I've noticed is the lack of fire extinguishers or fire-trucks.
12/27/2010 12:14 PM CST
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我觉得你所说的巨大的门实际上是个穿白工作服的人？
我注意到的，是附近没有灭火器或者是消防车。
mupp wrote:
It's had a news bit on CCTV (PRC state TV)...Might be part of the "bring it out to the public" roadshow
The Russians flew the PT PAK/FA almost a year ago, this might be a "hey we have one too" moment.
12/27/2010 12:28 PM CST
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曾经在CCTV中就有过相关信息披露。。。可能是在某种“走近大众”巡演节目里
俄罗斯在差不多一年以前试飞了PAK/FA原型机，这次可能是有点类似于在说“喂，我们也有”。
Rick-Joe wrote:
Bill, when you say "But ask yourself: why would China need or want a short-range stealth aircraft? Any targets with defenses that call for that capability are a long way from the mainland. Also, the bigger that the aircraft is, the more likely it is that it is a bomber as much as, if not more than, a fighter."
Bill，你说“而是问问你自己：为什么中国需要或者渴望得到短程隐形飞机？任何一个需要战机具备隐形能力的作战目标都远离大陆。同样，飞机越大，它是歼轰机的概率就越大，更可能就是轰炸机。”
-- you're implying the J-20 is a big aircraft right? In some ways I read it, it seems like you're imlpying the complete opposite.
这表明你想暗示J-20是一架大飞机么？可按我的理解，似乎你想说的完全不是这么回事。
Also, it's doubtful if the Russian's have supplied 117S or not -- regardless of what Jane's says, the Russians haven't been bragging on about this as they usually do with China's (now rare) military purchases. (Look at the way they proclaim the PLAAF is going to purchase the Su-35 where nothing of the sort has come from the Chinese side)
同样的，俄罗斯是否提供了117S也值得怀疑--别管简氏怎么说，俄罗斯这次没有如往常那样，对中国的军购（现在已经很少了）大肆宣扬。（看看当中国方面对空军采购苏35还没有任何消息的时候，俄罗斯是如何高调宣扬的）
Also, on the length -- remember that Asians are inherently slightly shorter than Caucasians so if you're measuring through the rough heights of the sillouhettes you may wanna scale down a bit.
还有，关于长度问题--记着，亚洲人天生比高加索人要矮一些，所以如果你是通过侧高来粗略估算的话，或许你该把你的估值调小一点。
Solomon wrote:
strange timing on all this...
first we have this stealth fighter being shown....next we here that the anti-ship ballistic missile has reached IOC...
seems mighty strange for news of a rising China to be hitting all before a new Congress is to be seated with a meat axe aimed at the Pentagon...
i'm just sayin'
12/27/2010 5:30 PM CST
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所有一切的时机都很奇怪。。。
我们先是看到外泄的隐形飞机照片。。。然后我们听说反舰弹道导弹已经具备初期作战能力。。。
在一个对五角大楼虎视眈眈的国会即将产生之际，到处听到关于一个冉冉上升的中国的消息还真是奇怪。。。
我也就说说而已。
RSF wrote:
The PLAAF have been relatively open about their plans for China's stealth fighter programs, so we should really go back to prior statements to understand the intended capabilities of this aircraft.
中国空军对于中国隐形飞机项目的消息已经相对开放了，所以我们应该回到最初的话题，搞清楚这架飞机的建造意图。
The F-22 has been the bench mark that Chengdu and Shenyang designers have been targeting from the beginning. Openly PLAAF officials have talked of the program being based on four performance goals, also known as 4S, these being Stealth, Supercruise, Super-Maneuverability, and Short Take-Off.
F-22是成飞和沈飞的设计人员从最初就瞄准的标志性设计。中国空军官员曾公开谈到这个项目的设计目标是基于四个方面的要求，即通称的4S，分别是隐形、超音速巡航、超机动性以及短距起降。
So looking at these known metrics, I would respectfully argue against the statement of Marcase that the emergence of this Chinese stealth fighter is a good selling point for the F-35 (for India). Rather this supports the reactivation of the F-22 production line, and the need to develop the Raptor as it should have been vs. spending billions of dollars on the JSF, which will have limited value against the heavy twin engine stealth fighters now being developed by the Russians/India, and now China.
那么基于这些已知标准，鄙人对Marcase关于中国隐形战机的崛起将成为促成F-35买给印度的好理由的说法表示反对。继续投入巨资在JSF上意义不大，因为其在面对俄罗斯/印度和现在中国研制的重型双引擎隐形战机时作用有限，与其浪费数十亿美元在此，不如重启F-22生产线，将其发展到“猛禽”本应达到的程度。
This plane is a long way from being ready for production so we still have time. However, reviewing the statements of He Weirong Deputy Commander of the Chinese Air Force last year, this fighter is supposed to be operational by 2015, so a change course is needed NOW.
J-20距离大规模生产还有很长的路要走，所以我们仍然有时间。然而，中国空军副司令员何为荣去年说J-20预计于2015年服役，思及此言论，我们的计划或许需要立即有些改变了。
12/27/2010 9:30 PM CST
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Solomon wrote:
a whole lot needs to be said actually Horde.
实际上可说的很多，Horde。
if this is real then not only are the readers here at Aviation Week being caught flat footed but also, it would seem our defense establishment.
如果这消息是真的，那么不仅我们这些航空周刊的读者会惊慌失措，我们的国防部门也会如此。
but its not only the JSF that might need to be re-examined but the defense stance of every Western Nation...especially those in Europe.
而且不但JSF项目需要重新审视，每一个西方国家的防御状态也需要重新评估，尤其是欧洲国家。
the strength of the JSF lies not only in its stealth but more importantly in its sensor fusion. while i'm not sure that this Chinese "super" jet has those things (or for that matter if its even real) but what about legacy airframes that don't?
JSF的威力不仅在于它的隐形性，更重要的，是它的传感器融合技术。我不清楚中国的超级战机是否具备这些能力（而且也难以确定这消息到底是不是真的），但那些不具备这些能力的传统战机怎么办？
plans to simply upgrade F-15, 16, 18 fighters for the US get thrown out the window. Typhoons, Rafales and Gripens are also not even remotely viable.
将F-15,16,18简单的升级下的计划可以忽略不谈了，台风、飓风、鹰狮连生存的几率都很小。
while it might suit your subject line Horde ole' boy to claim that this marks the end of the JSF, it could be the reverse...it might push an even larger buy.
它也许会如Horde所说的那样标志着JSF的结束，它也许会导致相反的结果。。。J-20的出现或许会导致F-35订单量的增长。
again, i have serious doubts about this airplane being real but its a great present to the DoD and the threat of it will keep the Pentagon rolling in cash even though we're in tough economic times.
12/27/2010 10:58 PM CST
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再次重申，我对于这架飞机是否是真的表示严重怀疑，但其出现对于国防部来说是一件好事，它将使得五角大楼即便在如此困难的经济状况中也得到大量的资金。tangoviking wrote:
Could be a view in China that for the resources they now put into developing a costly
stealth jet it has to be able to provide high endurance for the air defense role I.E
long patrol times and larger weapons loads. Because perhaps they do not see the
possibility to dramatically mass produce this type of jet today. Seeing how many they
would need for national (and regional) operations.
Just 200 of these with Mach2+ capability and long endurance, plus a lot of BVR-missiles
onboard, coupled with a sizeable AESA would not be a welcomed opponent for a foreign
airforce that has always seen itself as masters of the airspace domain anywhere in the
world.
The lower cost, short range single-engine FCA will be next...
12/27/2010 6:17 AM CST
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在天朝投入如此多的资源于隐形飞机上之后，丝带必须能保证其在空中防卫方面的持久力，即较长滞
空时间和大载弹量，因为空军目前不太可能大规模量产这种飞机，而他们在国家间（和区域间）的各
类行动又急需此类装备。
仅仅有200架这种航速超2马赫、续航力强、配有大量超视距导弹、有强大的相控阵雷达制导的飞机，
可是不够对手看的哦。人家美帝可是自视为世界航空工业的总瓢把子呢~
往后的将会是廉价，短程、单发的未来轻型战斗机...
tangoviking wrote:
Another one Bill.. small but a slightly more lined-up sideview. Sry no credit.
12/27/2010 6:47 AM CST
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Bill，这是另一张照片...小了点但是更平行一些的侧面图。不保证可信度~
tangoviking wrote:
Oh and the canopy is down on that photo. Seems to be a row of people standing in the
background too. Test run?
12/27/2010 6:59 AM CST
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囧，这张照片里降落伞（座舱罩？看不到图，不确定说的是哪一部分）已经放下来了。看来也有许多
围观群众站在后排啊。是试飞？
Marcase wrote:
Nice catch Bill and tangoviking.
It has indeed a very similar shape to the original JAST design, and if it does has a
Lambda-type wing (ie optimized for "turn & burn" maneuvering) it could be seen as a
Chinese PAKFA-type interceptor. Perhaps to provide a long-range land-based CAP umbrella
as the aircraft carrier works up.
Big nose for a big AESA btw.
China usually adopts a block approach in (defense) systems, which means successive
production runs show steady incremental improvements. So I wouldn't be surprised to see
a stealthy "F/A" strike-fighter next and ultimately an "FB" type bomber.
The PLAAF still lacks enough interdiction strike (Su-30) and strategic bomber aircraft
(obsolete Xian H-6/Badger). I expect the Jian-11/Su-27 Flankers production will ramp up
soon, so the next logical step would be to extend the deep strike capability after this
J-20 has proven itself as a good base platform.
But this is all pure pre-morning coffee speculation of course.
12/27/2010 7:01 AM CST
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Bill、tangoviking，乃们拍的很给力。
丝带看上去确实很像原本JAST（联合先进攻击技术）的设计，要不是它有个拉姆达型机翼（即近战格
斗机动性最优化设计）它就是个天朝版的PAKFA型拦截机。也许是当航妈行动时为她提供一个远程陆
基战斗机巡逻队保护网。
当然还有个远程相控阵雷达。
中国在防御系统方面通常采取整体性的思路，也就是说有了稳定的逐步改善，才会不停的大规模量产
。所以如果接下来天朝出了隐形的歼击攻击机、战斗轰炸机，我也不会惊讶的。
PLA空军目前仍然缺乏足够的拦截机（苏30）和战略轰炸机（已过时的西飞产 H-6和獾型）。我希望
歼11和苏27能加速量产，如果丝带确实给力，那空军的下一步就是加强纵深打击能力了。
当然这都还是预想而已。
Marcase wrote:
Just now wondering if this would be a dynamite sales pitch for an Indian JSF...!
12/27/2010 7:04 AM CST
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我就想知道丝带会不会掀起印度对联合攻击机的狂热购买潮……！
andrei_sh wrote:
Funny thing to see is that Russian VVS Red Star insignia on the vertical tails. Any
suggestions to explain this, apart from an obvious one that this is a stupid fake?
12/27/2010 7:16 AM CST
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笑死人了，这飞机尾翼那边居然有俄罗斯VVS的红星标记！这不摆明了黑丝是个愚蠢的山寨么？
Marcase wrote:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/91/Roundel_of_the_Peoples_Liberation_Arm
y_Air_Force.svg
12/27/2010 7:27 AM CST
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（一个link，免翻）
John S wrote:
"...and at this point I'm seeing a "lambda" wing planform, seen ... with a single
straight leading edge and a kinked trailing edge. It first appeared on McDonnell Douglas
JAST studies in the early 1990s."
I do believe the F-101 Voodoo predates the 1990s by a few decades.
But it was a McDonnell product, sans Douglas...
12/27/2010 7:29 AM CST
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“...此时我看到了拉姆达机翼平面图，机翼前缘直而后缘弯...它首先由麦道公司在90年代初在JAST
（F-35从中衍生而来）中提出。”
我坚信F-101这种老怪物即使是在90年代也是独领风骚呢！
但它是麦克唐纳出产的东东，当时（麦）可还没跟道格拉斯合并……
tangoviking wrote:
@andrei_sh , PLA star. Yellow and Red.
12/27/2010 7:31 AM CST
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@andrei_sh, 这星星是PLA的标志，红黄两色。
Bill Sweetman wrote:
The Voodoo wasn't that stealthy... but I wonder whether the JAST wing was inspired by
it. It's a good way to get proper edge alignments with a lift distribution that's a bit
like a trapezoidal swept wing.
12/27/2010 7:44 AM CST
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Voodoo不够隐形...但我怀疑JAST式的机翼可能就是受它启发而来的。
这样的话可以通过这种机翼边缘的设置，使得飞机获得很好的升力，有点像梯形掠翼的作用。
Firefox wrote:
The best Christmass present ever. The day the fly it, I will start studying Chinese.
12/27/2010 8:22 AM CST
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（这可真是我收到的）最好的圣诞礼物了！哪天丝带真在天上飞了，我就开始学中文。
andrei_sh wrote:
Thanks, Marcase. I do know what PLAAF insignia looks like. Tangoviking, I'm not sure
anybody can tell the color of the thin outline from the distance. But you forgot about
the red ribbon detail in the Chenese roundel. http://www.chinatoday.com/arm/index.htm
12/27/2010 8:23 AM CST
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谢啦，Marcase。我当然知道PLA的空军标志长啥样。Tangoviking，我不确定在远处还有人能清晰的
分辨出标志上那细细一圈的颜色。不过你忘记了一个细节，中国军徽有条红带。
http://www.chinatoday.com/arm/index.htm
andrei_sh wrote:
Nobody will sell the 117S engines to Chinese, for the next 10 years at least. Our
Chinese brothers may keep dreamin.
12/27/2010 8:43 AM CST
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最少未来10年都不会有人把117S的发动机卖给TG的。我们的中国大兄弟们就做梦去吧~
David Sullivan wrote:
This makes sense if they have airborne surveilance equal or better to Global Hawk,
missiles equal or better than AIM-120, jammers equal or better than EA-18 and pilots
equal to Red Flag or NAS Fallon. Otherwise, they are just targets.
12/27/2010 10:40 AM CST
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如果他们有和全球鹰一样好的空中无线监控系统，不弱于AIM-120的导弹，好过EA-18的干扰发射器，
有跟美国空军红旗军演和海军NAS Fallon基地练出来的那样的老鸟，丝带才能算有用。否则就是空中
弱鸡。
BowlWeavil wrote:
We can all be sure Bill and his Australian internet buddies will be ready to crown this
aircraft the world's most deadly as soon as a clear picture of it emerges. (Assuming we
have to wait that long.)
12/27/2010 11:28 AM CST
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一旦丝带的清晰果照闪亮登场（可能都不用等到那时候！），我敢担保Bill和他的澳洲网友们肯定会
跳出来把它捧成大杀器之王的！
ghemago wrote:
Can't get the Ella or Memorex joke...
Can you help this non native english speaking member?
12/27/2010 11:32 AM CST
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不太明白你的Ella Fitzgerald或者梅莫雷克斯的笑话……
能不能给非英语母语的介绍下？
Bill Sweetman wrote:
Classy first post, BW. Come back any time you feel like contributing something useful.
12/27/2010 11:34 AM CST
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BW，乃的处女群嘲就挺给力的嘛！下次如果你肚子里有了干货，欢迎随时来分享~
ghemago wrote:
David S, you are over relaxed and that's the start of most failures...
12/27/2010 11:35 AM CST
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David S，骄兵必败....
Bill Sweetman wrote:
"Is it live, or is it Memorex?" was a slogan for cassette tapes, back in the far-off
days when there were such things, and Ella Fitzgerald was featured in the Memorex ads.
12/27/2010 11:37 AM CST
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“这是直播，还是梅莫雷克斯（美国品牌）？”这是在磁带还存在的很久很久以前，某磁带厂家的一句广告语，Ella Fitzgerald出演了那个广告。
jetcal1 wrote:
Time will tell. If it's real and not an evolutionary dead end, we'll be seeing more of
it. The questions are:
Can China come up with an engine sufficient for the airframe to reach its potential?
Are the avionics/fire control stealthy enough?
Will it end up like the B-2 with only a few built?
Could this be the final incentive for DoD to sell the F-22 to Japan?
And just to plug in a F-35 question;
Could this this be an opportunity for LMCO to kill the F-35 and put the F-22 back into
production? After all - if this is the real deal, the whole projected threat
scenario/schedule may have just gone out the window.
12/27/2010 11:40 AM CST
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时间会证明一切的。如果这是真的，而且会继续发展下去，我们会看到更多的东东。
现在的问题是：
中国能不能生产制造出可以使飞机充分发挥自身潜能的发动机？
丝带的航电和火控设备够不够隐形？
它会像B-2一样，产量稀少吗？
它会最终促使国防部向泥红国出售F-22吗？
再问个F-35相关的：
丝带的出现，会不会使得洛克希德停产F-35而重新开始生产F-22？毕竟如果丝带是真的，那F-35所针
对的整个所谓“假想威胁情形”也就不现实了。
============以上为Nicole翻译，因为有急事，我的部分晚上补全，见谅==============
BowlWeavil wrote:
Come on Bill, it looks fast, it has canards, and it isn't from Lockheed. If this isn't right up your alley then nothing is.
12/27/2010 11:49 AM CST
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得了吧，Bill。它看起来速度很快，有鸭翼，不是来自洛克希德。如果这都不和你味口的话，估计没有什么能了。
Harrier wrote:
The one thing that strikes me is that the main undercarriage design looks horrible, with big doors scraping the runway and long, stalky legs splayed out at quite an angle. Reminds me of TSR.2, which is not a great u/c design to mimic, although even that didn't dangle its doors in harms way.
12/27/2010 11:54 AM CST
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令我感到震惊的一点是主起落架的设计很恐怖。门大的都快刮到跑道了，而长又细的腿以相当大的角度支开。让我想起TSR.2，那实在不是个好的模仿对象，何况连TSR.2也没有将起落架舱门设计成那样。
tangoviking wrote:
@Harrier
I think the big doors you're refering to is actually a man in white coverall?
Something I've noticed is the lack of fire extinguishers or fire-trucks.
12/27/2010 12:14 PM CST
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我觉得你所说的巨大的门实际上是个穿白工作服的人？
我注意到的，是附近没有灭火器或者是消防车。
mupp wrote:
It's had a news bit on CCTV (PRC state TV)...Might be part of the "bring it out to the public" roadshow
The Russians flew the PT PAK/FA almost a year ago, this might be a "hey we have one too" moment.
12/27/2010 12:28 PM CST
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曾经在CCTV中就有过相关信息披露。。。可能是在某种“走近大众”巡演节目里
俄罗斯在差不多一年以前试飞了PAK/FA原型机，这次可能是有点类似于在说“喂，我们也有”。
Rick-Joe wrote:
Bill, when you say "But ask yourself: why would China need or want a short-range stealth aircraft? Any targets with defenses that call for that capability are a long way from the mainland. Also, the bigger that the aircraft is, the more likely it is that it is a bomber as much as, if not more than, a fighter."
Bill，你说“而是问问你自己：为什么中国需要或者渴望得到短程隐形飞机？任何一个需要战机具备隐形能力的作战目标都远离大陆。同样，飞机越大，它是歼轰机的概率就越大，更可能就是轰炸机。”
-- you're implying the J-20 is a big aircraft right? In some ways I read it, it seems like you're imlpying the complete opposite.
这表明你想暗示J-20是一架大飞机么？可按我的理解，似乎你想说的完全不是这么回事。
Also, it's doubtful if the Russian's have supplied 117S or not -- regardless of what Jane's says, the Russians haven't been bragging on about this as they usually do with China's (now rare) military purchases. (Look at the way they proclaim the PLAAF is going to purchase the Su-35 where nothing of the sort has come from the Chinese side)
同样的，俄罗斯是否提供了117S也值得怀疑--别管简氏怎么说，俄罗斯这次没有如往常那样，对中国的军购（现在已经很少了）大肆宣扬。（看看当中国方面对空军采购苏35还没有任何消息的时候，俄罗斯是如何高调宣扬的）
Also, on the length -- remember that Asians are inherently slightly shorter than Caucasians so if you're measuring through the rough heights of the sillouhettes you may wanna scale down a bit.
还有，关于长度问题--记着，亚洲人天生比高加索人要矮一些，所以如果你是通过侧高来粗略估算的话，或许你该把你的估值调小一点。
Solomon wrote:
strange timing on all this...
first we have this stealth fighter being shown....next we here that the anti-ship ballistic missile has reached IOC...
seems mighty strange for news of a rising China to be hitting all before a new Congress is to be seated with a meat axe aimed at the Pentagon...
i'm just sayin'
12/27/2010 5:30 PM CST
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所有一切的时机都很奇怪。。。
我们先是看到外泄的隐形飞机照片。。。然后我们听说反舰弹道导弹已经具备初期作战能力。。。
在一个对五角大楼虎视眈眈的国会即将产生之际，到处听到关于一个冉冉上升的中国的消息还真是奇怪。。。
我也就说说而已。
RSF wrote:
The PLAAF have been relatively open about their plans for China's stealth fighter programs, so we should really go back to prior statements to understand the intended capabilities of this aircraft.
中国空军对于中国隐形飞机项目的消息已经相对开放了，所以我们应该回到最初的话题，搞清楚这架飞机的建造意图。
The F-22 has been the bench mark that Chengdu and Shenyang designers have been targeting from the beginning. Openly PLAAF officials have talked of the program being based on four performance goals, also known as 4S, these being Stealth, Supercruise, Super-Maneuverability, and Short Take-Off.
F-22是成飞和沈飞的设计人员从最初就瞄准的标志性设计。中国空军官员曾公开谈到这个项目的设计目标是基于四个方面的要求，即通称的4S，分别是隐形、超音速巡航、超机动性以及短距起降。
So looking at these known metrics, I would respectfully argue against the statement of Marcase that the emergence of this Chinese stealth fighter is a good selling point for the F-35 (for India). Rather this supports the reactivation of the F-22 production line, and the need to develop the Raptor as it should have been vs. spending billions of dollars on the JSF, which will have limited value against the heavy twin engine stealth fighters now being developed by the Russians/India, and now China.
那么基于这些已知标准，鄙人对Marcase关于中国隐形战机的崛起将成为促成F-35买给印度的好理由的说法表示反对。继续投入巨资在JSF上意义不大，因为其在面对俄罗斯/印度和现在中国研制的重型双引擎隐形战机时作用有限，与其浪费数十亿美元在此，不如重启F-22生产线，将其发展到“猛禽”本应达到的程度。
This plane is a long way from being ready for production so we still have time. However, reviewing the statements of He Weirong Deputy Commander of the Chinese Air Force last year, this fighter is supposed to be operational by 2015, so a change course is needed NOW.
J-20距离大规模生产还有很长的路要走，所以我们仍然有时间。然而，中国空军副司令员何为荣去年说J-20预计于2015年服役，思及此言论，我们的计划或许需要立即有些改变了。
12/27/2010 9:30 PM CST
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Solomon wrote:
a whole lot needs to be said actually Horde.
实际上可说的很多，Horde。
if this is real then not only are the readers here at Aviation Week being caught flat footed but also, it would seem our defense establishment.
如果这消息是真的，那么不仅我们这些航空周刊的读者会惊慌失措，我们的国防部门也会如此。
but its not only the JSF that might need to be re-examined but the defense stance of every Western Nation...especially those in Europe.
而且不但JSF项目需要重新审视，每一个西方国家的防御状态也需要重新评估，尤其是欧洲国家。
the strength of the JSF lies not only in its stealth but more importantly in its sensor fusion. while i'm not sure that this Chinese "super" jet has those things (or for that matter if its even real) but what about legacy airframes that don't?
JSF的威力不仅在于它的隐形性，更重要的，是它的传感器融合技术。我不清楚中国的超级战机是否具备这些能力（而且也难以确定这消息到底是不是真的），但那些不具备这些能力的传统战机怎么办？
plans to simply upgrade F-15, 16, 18 fighters for the US get thrown out the window. Typhoons, Rafales and Gripens are also not even remotely viable.
将F-15,16,18简单的升级下的计划可以忽略不谈了，台风、飓风、鹰狮连生存的几率都很小。
while it might suit your subject line Horde ole' boy to claim that this marks the end of the JSF, it could be the reverse...it might push an even larger buy.
它也许会如Horde所说的那样标志着JSF的结束，它也许会导致相反的结果。。。J-20的出现或许会导致F-35订单量的增长。
again, i have serious doubts about this airplane being real but its a great present to the DoD and the threat of it will keep the Pentagon rolling in cash even though we're in tough economic times.
12/27/2010 10:58 PM CST
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再次重申，我对于这架飞机是否是真的表示严重怀疑，但其出现对于国防部来说是一件好事，它将使得五角大楼即便在如此困难的经济状况中也得到大量的资金。