印度的制度绩效真的是奇葩。。。

废话 当然不如朝鲜，朝鲜也就是缺油出的问
题

回复 1# strongp2
没看懂，楼主解释一下什么意思

回复 3# liwei18604
简单地说就是美国人设计了一个指数，用来衡量全球的一些非工业化国家的人口饥饿程度。排名越靠前的，饥饿程度越低。4.9以下是低，5到9.9是中度，10到19.9严重饥饿，再往后就是红色警报了。。。
工业化国家他们是不统计的，默认为没有此类问题。

这个数据很有意思。中国是不富裕，但是现在还谈论饥饿指数我感觉有点奇怪。中国已经实现了粮食自给率95%以上，怎么还会有饥饿情况发生呢？

回复 5# shijian2008
我也有点奇怪。不过中国这么大，咱们也不可能所有的情况都了解。我再研究一下美国人的这个报告吧，五十多页。不过三哥这已经是个奇迹了。。。折腾了那么多年，还处在严重饥荒的情况下。

美国农业部发布的数据
美国1710万个家庭（4910万人）食物无保障
其中670万个家庭（1210万人，520万儿童）时常挨饿
    http://www.ers.usda.gov/Briefing/FoodSecurity/stats_graphs.htm

Food insecure—At times during the year, these households were uncertain of having, or unable to acquire, enough food to meet the needs of all their members because they had insufficient money or other resources for food. Food-insecure households include those with low food security and very low food security.

    * 14.6 percent (17.1 million) of U.S. households were food insecure at some time during 2008.
    * An increase from 11.1 percent in 2007.

Low food security—These food-insecure households obtained enough food to avoid substantially disrupting their eating patterns or reducing food intake by using a variety of coping strategies, such as eating less varied diets, participating in Federal food assistance programs, or getting emergency food from community food pantries.

    * 8.9 percent (10.4 million) of U.S. households had low food security in 2008.
    * An increase from 7.0 percent in 2007.

Very low food security—In these food-insecure households, normal eating patterns of one or more household members were disrupted and food intake was reduced at times during the year because they had insufficient money or other resources for food. In reports prior to 2006, these households were described as “food insecure with hunger.” For a description of the change in food security labels, see “Definitions of Hunger and Food Security.”

    * 5.7 percent (6.7 million) of U.S. households had very low food security at some time during 2008.
    * An increase from 4.1 percent in 2007.

The defining characteristic of very low food security is that, at times during the year, the food intake of household members is reduced and their normal eating patterns are disrupted because the household lacks money and other resources for food. Very low food security can be characterized in terms of the conditions that households in this category typically report in the annual food security survey. Click here for a graph of the percentage of households reporting specific conditions.

How Many People Lived in Food-Insecure Households?

    * In 2008, 49.1 million people lived in food-insecure households, including 16.7 million children.
    * Of these individuals, 12.1 million adults and 5.2 million children lived in households with very low food security.
    * Children’s food security is affected to some extent in most food-insecure households (see the ERS report, Food Insecurity in Households with Children: Prevalence, Severity, and Characteristics). However, children are usually protected from substantial reductions in food intake even in households with very low food security. In 2008, 1.1 million children (1.5 percent of the Nation’s children) lived in households with very low food security among children.



柱状图纵轴大意，由上至下：
担心食物吃光
购买的食物很快被吃掉
负担不起均衡膳食
削减了食量或进餐次数
最近三个月内经常削减了食量或进餐次数
吃不饱
感到饥饿时也没有吃东西
体重下降
整天没吃任何食物
最近三个月内有整天没吃任何食物情况
不同颜色横轴分别代表食物保障无虞，差和很差的三类人群该现象出现的几率

这个数据很有意思。中国是不富裕，但是现在还谈论饥饿指数我感觉有点奇怪。中国已经实现了粮食自给率95%以上 ...
shijian2008 发表于 2010-10-7 08:32

美国农业部发布的数据
美国1710万个家庭（4910万人）食物无保障
其中670万个家庭（1210万人，520万儿童）时常挨饿
    http://www.ers.usda.gov/Briefing/FoodSecurity/stats_graphs.htm

Food insecure—At times during the year, these households were uncertain of having, or unable to acquire, enough food to meet the needs of all their members because they had insufficient money or other resources for food. Food-insecure households include those with low food security and very low food security.

    * 14.6 percent (17.1 million) of U.S. households were food insecure at some time during 2008.
    * An increase from 11.1 percent in 2007.

Low food security—These food-insecure households obtained enough food to avoid substantially disrupting their eating patterns or reducing food intake by using a variety of coping strategies, such as eating less varied diets, participating in Federal food assistance programs, or getting emergency food from community food pantries.

    * 8.9 percent (10.4 million) of U.S. households had low food security in 2008.
    * An increase from 7.0 percent in 2007.

Very low food security—In these food-insecure households, normal eating patterns of one or more household members were disrupted and food intake was reduced at times during the year because they had insufficient money or other resources for food. In reports prior to 2006, these households were described as “food insecure with hunger.” For a description of the change in food security labels, see “Definitions of Hunger and Food Security.”

    * 5.7 percent (6.7 million) of U.S. households had very low food security at some time during 2008.
    * An increase from 4.1 percent in 2007.

The defining characteristic of very low food security is that, at times during the year, the food intake of household members is reduced and their normal eating patterns are disrupted because the household lacks money and other resources for food. Very low food security can be characterized in terms of the conditions that households in this category typically report in the annual food security survey. Click here for a graph of the percentage of households reporting specific conditions.

How Many People Lived in Food-Insecure Households?

    * In 2008, 49.1 million people lived in food-insecure households, including 16.7 million children.
    * Of these individuals, 12.1 million adults and 5.2 million children lived in households with very low food security.
    * Children’s food security is affected to some extent in most food-insecure households (see the ERS report, Food Insecurity in Households with Children: Prevalence, Severity, and Characteristics). However, children are usually protected from substantial reductions in food intake even in households with very low food security. In 2008, 1.1 million children (1.5 percent of the Nation’s children) lived in households with very low food security among children.



柱状图纵轴大意，由上至下：
担心食物吃光
购买的食物很快被吃掉
负担不起均衡膳食
削减了食量或进餐次数
最近三个月内经常削减了食量或进餐次数
吃不饱
感到饥饿时也没有吃东西
体重下降
整天没吃任何食物
最近三个月内有整天没吃任何食物情况
不同颜色横轴分别代表食物保障无虞，差和很差的三类人群该现象出现的几率

这老美哪来的这么详细的数据，在中国国内进行人口普查了？

中国有民政体制。对不能实现粮食自给的住户是有民政部门发放粮食的。极个别个案谁也不能保证，但从制度上讲饿死人是不可能发生的。不知道美国有没有类似民政的部门。
不过正如楼上贴的美国的数据那样，关键是标准。
不过我不了解中国的5.7是什么意思？是说100个人中间有5.7个人饥饿吗？那么饥饿到什么程度？是说全年没有粮食还是什么标准？

虽然说这个排名是到2009年，但是数据是截止到2007年的。在这里说明一下。

ymsong 发表于 2010-10-7 08:56


是美国国内的数据{:wuyu:}

shijian2008 发表于 2010-10-7 08:59
粮食自给率和人民饿不饿无关，
印度是粮食净出口国.......

boris_lee 发表于 2010-10-7 09:06

哦，是这样。:handshake

回复 12# boris_lee
我觉得这个主要和贫富差距，极端贫困人口数量，社会救济机制的有效性密切相关。

boris_lee 发表于 2010-10-7 09:06

    人家印度就区区两亿人而已，剩下的十亿能算人吗，算了，不是侮辱人家印度吗？人家两亿人都是JY啊。

竟然还出口粮食

印度经济也高速发展了近20年了，怎么贫困率文盲率饥饿指数没什么大的起色呢，倒是基尼指数大幅领先中国了。

就不要老是说人家三弟了

shijian2008 发表于 2010-10-7 08:59

美国有社会救济力量。

不过，在这样一个资本主义价值观高度发达的地方，连消防队都可能因为你没付消防费而拒绝救火。

有人陷于饥饿没人管，那也毫不奇怪。

这和国家的繁荣与经济实力没有必然联系。

回复 5# shijian2008


    高调忽悠低调富强，云贵两省我走的差不多了，很长时间在最贫困的地方，至少我没见过吃不起饭的，贫困的真还是多，饥饿真是没见过

印度没资格和中国比，应该去和北朝鲜比生活水平，而且还比不过。
北朝鲜人均预期寿命和人均肉消费都明显高于印度；初生婴儿死亡率和营养不良儿童比例低于印度。
其实，若以营养不良儿童比例作比较，印度连朝鲜也没资格比，应该和撒哈拉以南非洲国家去比，而且就是在黑非洲50多个国家中，印度营养不良儿童比例也就是处于中游（有27个黑非洲国家营养不良儿童比例低于印度）

印度人均肉消费，低于中国1965年水平；粮食总产量相当于中国1968年水平，可是1968年中国人口是7亿多人......
印度人均热量摄入为2400大卡（adult male equivalent,换算为成年男性标准体的数值），而美国加利福尼亚大学亚洲历史教授肯尼斯彭慕兰在《大分流》一书中指出：

潘敏德从一部17世纪长江三角洲的农书中记载的农业工人的口粮定量反推，提出这些定量中仅谷物即可折算为4600千卡。 对18世纪全中国人口粮食消费的估计多种多样，但它们的平均值为每年2.2石左右稻米当量， 每人每天约产生1837千卡。如果18世纪中国人口的年龄结构与卜凯（John Buck）1920年代到1930年代的样本相同， 换算为每个等成年男性人口就是2386千卡，还要加上他们所消费的无论何种非谷物食品。把数据换算为等成年男性，尽管合乎与英格兰比较的需要，由于下面的事实而变得复杂：即，17世纪和20世纪中国农村的资料中，成年男性和女性之间的消费差异比英国样本中的差异要大得多；但如果使用19世纪后期英国的比率，我们的中国的数字就变成每个成年男性2651千卡。

那也就是说，印度现在的营养水平大概和我大清康乾时期的中国人差不多，可能要高一点，但也可能低好多（依据不同历史学家不同的估计），总之是不会比彼时中国人有什么优势的。

http://www.guardian.co.uk/enviro ... pita-climate-change

世界各国人均肉消费。最新数据是，印度5.2公斤，朝鲜10.8公斤。

人均预期寿命和婴儿死亡率who官网上都有，就不列举了。

天堂风暴 发表于 2010-10-7 14:38
     ----拿肉来说对印度有点不公平，印度有许多乱七八糟的教徒不吃肉食。
   -----我之前和一个印度朋友去饭店吃饭，因为不吃荤，给他炒了一碗扬州炒饭，他翻弄了半天，找到一个虾仁，就不吃了

外蒙居然也吃不饱，就那么点人

印度居然在巴基斯坦后面哦

魏秋月 发表于 2010-10-7 14:45


    很有意思的是，印度是世界第一大糖尿病国家。考虑印度那极其靠不住的卫生医疗体系，他们潜在未被发现的糖尿病患者更多比其他国家更多比例。

梦想去飞翔 发表于 2010-10-7 15:04


   为了补充素食带来的能量缺乏，印度人非常爱吃甜食，可能是糖的第一大消费国

天堂风暴 发表于 2010-10-7 14:36


印度在热带

同样吸入的热量水平，在印度可能不会死人，而在中国特别是北方可能就会死人了，很多时候冻死和饿死是很难区分的。。。

不过印度农业先天条件比中国好得多了，光照雨水量全年温度土地结构都适合种东西，只是工业化机械化程度太差，加上热带人懒，这些后天问题造成的产量不高

魏秋月 发表于 2010-10-7 14:45
那就看营养不良儿童比例吧，随手转个三哥自己媒体的报道：
http://www.expressindia.com/news/fullstory.php?newsid=81788
印度营养不良比例比撒哈拉以南非洲还要高，而且是高的不少。

春申硕鼠 发表于 2010-10-7 11:55


    有时候不是有东西吃就不会死的。。。美国每年寒潮热浪，交不起电费开冷暖气被热死冻死的人并不少见

回复 25# 魏秋月


招待素食的印度人还真是麻烦. 几年前招待过一个, 满南京路的找色拉.

娱乐大众 发表于 2010-10-7 15:06


    其实高碳水化合物饮食导致的胰岛细胞功能消耗过分导致了糖尿病。悲剧呀……

看来主题思想确实有值得骄傲的地方............最大的民主国家不过如此..............

深弹爆轰 发表于 2010-10-7 15:11
    --- 他们也分为好几种，有的可以吃鸡肉鱼虾，有的可以吃鸡蛋，喝牛奶。有的是只要是从动物身上出来都不吃。上次招待几个印度人就是这样的，麻烦的要死。
   ----其实分辨也很容易，就是越黑的越不能吃荤。

比较关注饭量的标准，是按哪种体型算得
个人感觉有两三个月都是吃到比较饱的话，十几斤体重就上去了，然后就要控制饮食往下降，不能感觉有点饿就一定要吃

天堂风暴 发表于 2010-10-7 14:36

人家印度紧跟历史潮流，爱吃绿色蔬菜，对于鸡鸭鱼肉这些现在已经看不上鸟……
另外适度饥饿可以减肥……

不洁的孩子 发表于 2010-10-7 16:39

人家搞主体思想，说来说去，可还是打着“社会主义”的招牌。

朝鲜90年代困难，主要是苏东剧变，原来的贸易体系断裂，能源陷入危机，导致国内交通、工业、农业连带崩溃，加上自然灾害，那就饥荒了。

而当这种危机缓解过来，哪怕经济仍然比较困难，只要其体制能维持，人民的基本保障就不会太差劲。

泰国这么大的一个大米出口国竟然还有8.2？他们前两年不是提议设立大米出口国组织RPEC么，这调查数据到底靠谱不靠谱啊.....