超级军网永恒的争论－关于F14vsF15的那次模拟战
来源：百度文库 编辑：超级军网 时间：2024/04/29 15:11:25
印象中每次超大讨论F14，总会提提那次模拟对抗，但是似乎没有专门的一贴讨论那次模拟战的细节。今天在鼎盛看到一张贴，找到张图，据说是那次模拟对抗的照片。由太平洋导弹测试中心对空军武器学校，应该是当时负责测试F14和F15的两个主要单位。
之前关于F14的讨论很多了，只是想借这一贴，讨论一下当时F14为什么能胜F15。之前论坛也有些观点：
1、当时F14已经服役几年，F15刚服役，负责飞F14的是VF1的王牌，飞F15的是菜鸟；
2、F15的引擎可靠性差，格斗中不敢用尽；
3、F14把F15引到有利的低速区域；
4、F14的双人机组SA比单人机组的F15更好；
PMTC F14A
有关那次模拟对抗，所获得的资料甚少，连对抗科目都是未知，暑期将结束，看看这贴能否火，内心阴暗的看争论，也看资料达人能否找到更多资料。
印象中每次超大讨论F14，总会提提那次模拟对抗，但是似乎没有专门的一贴讨论那次模拟战的细节。今天在鼎盛看到一张贴，找到张图，据说是那次模拟对抗的照片。由太平洋导弹测试中心对空军武器学校，应该是当时负责测试F14和F15的两个主要单位。
之前关于F14的讨论很多了，只是想借这一贴，讨论一下当时F14为什么能胜F15。之前论坛也有些观点：
1、当时F14已经服役几年，F15刚服役，负责飞F14的是VF1的王牌，飞F15的是菜鸟；
2、F15的引擎可靠性差，格斗中不敢用尽；
3、F14把F15引到有利的低速区域；
4、F14的双人机组SA比单人机组的F15更好；
PMTC F14A
有关那次模拟对抗，所获得的资料甚少，连对抗科目都是未知，暑期将结束，看看这贴能否火，内心阴暗的看争论，也看资料达人能否找到更多资料。
当年街头小报讲过，貌似F14占优
忘记说明一点，只是讨论那场模拟对抗就ok了，之后的改进型已经没有讨论价值，基本现在是飞机挂个120对老旧的F14都有优势。
只是有点疑问，PMTC和WSE，能进去试飞的不应该是菜鸟吧，最多是对新飞机的飞行时数有不同，还是尽量先收集那场对抗科目先，感觉这个很重要。
只是有点疑问，PMTC和WSE，能进去试飞的不应该是菜鸟吧，最多是对新飞机的飞行时数有不同，还是尽量先收集那场对抗科目先，感觉这个很重要。
忘记说明一点，只是讨论那场模拟对抗就ok了，之后的改进型已经没有讨论价值，基本现在是飞机挂个120对老旧的F14都有优势。
只是有点疑问，PMTC和WSE，能进去试飞的不应该是菜鸟吧，最多是对新飞机的飞行时数有不同，还是尽量先收集那场对抗科目先，感觉这个很重要。
只是有点疑问，PMTC和WSE，能进去试飞的不应该是菜鸟吧，最多是对新飞机的飞行时数有不同，还是尽量先收集那场对抗科目先，感觉这个很重要。
不死鸟、麻雀、响尾蛇一齐上阵！:D
菜鸟这个说法很奇怪..........就算资本主义再怎么不论资排辈。哪个国家会照顾让没什么经验的菜鸟率先开新型飞机的？:lol
Ericsson1979 发表于 2009-8-25 18:48 
......话不能这么说
共产主义国家也会让菜鸟飞MIG-29的...
......话不能这么说
共产主义国家也会让菜鸟飞MIG-29的...
有视频，当年ccav放过，虽然只有几秒钟
leeone 发表于 2009-8-25 18:15
问题是很多猫饭一说起不死鸟就是无敌。。。。。说的比120都神棍
问题是很多猫饭一说起不死鸟就是无敌。。。。。说的比120都神棍
erwinhans 发表于 2009-8-25 18:56
那个。。。。人家说的是菜鸟率先开新型飞机。。。。。。
那个。。。。人家说的是菜鸟率先开新型飞机。。。。。。
既然拉出来PK,飞F15的不管怎么样都不会是菜鸟的........
这种话题就不是争论，更谈不上永恒。不过是一次模拟，即便分别是海军和空军机型。
一对一模拟空战最大作用就是人员的训练，而不是武器之间较量。
一对一模拟空战最大作用就是人员的训练，而不是武器之间较量。
原来一直都以为是作战部队进行了那次对抗，但是如果这张照片确实是那次对抗实照，由负责F14和F15测试任务的部队进行，双方水平应该不会差。不过可以认为60－70年代海军的水平比空军高一点。F14可以把F15引入自己优势区域，反过来F15为什么不引F14回自己的优势区域？
13# magicsun
对，海军和空军应该有定期的对抗。只是那次F15输惨了，之后也没有听过这两型机的对抗消息，如果之后F15对抗取胜，应该不会无声无息吧？
对，海军和空军应该有定期的对抗。只是那次F15输惨了，之后也没有听过这两型机的对抗消息，如果之后F15对抗取胜，应该不会无声无息吧？
MD空军最大的敌人永远是NAVY.......
有谁贴一下F-14的包线？
本人认为F-15在右上那块还是有点优势的 [:a7:]
本人认为F-15在右上那块还是有点优势的 [:a7:]
FFFEI 发表于 2009-8-25 19:06
中程距离上凤凰还是有很大优式~~~凤凰的动力段都在30公里以上。
中程距离上凤凰还是有很大优式~~~凤凰的动力段都在30公里以上。
禁止双弓 发表于 2009-8-25 22:47
所有的优势都是过去式了
不要拿10年前的电子技术和现在的来比
所有的优势都是过去式了
不要拿10年前的电子技术和现在的来比
atletico 发表于 2009-8-25 19:07
23老鸟虐过29新手 就这么简单.还不只一次
23老鸟虐过29新手 就这么简单.还不只一次
pzgr43 发表于 2009-8-25 22:49
雄猫再怎么样都比15强~~~~20几年前就这样！！！
雄猫再怎么样都比15强~~~~20几年前就这样！！！
erwinhans 发表于 2009-8-25 22:59
正常了，开A-4的教官还不一样抽得F-15、F-16的菜鸟们抬不起头。。。。。。。
正常了，开A-4的教官还不一样抽得F-15、F-16的菜鸟们抬不起头。。。。。。。
而且29刚到部队的时候，难道就可着劲地把菜鸟们往上赶么？
erwinhans 发表于 2009-8-25 22:59
新手开新机正常，进战机武器学校的编制就不正常了。
新手开新机正常，进战机武器学校的编制就不正常了。
大猫的推重比不行，但是人家阻力系数小啊
当然这是笼统的说
当然这是笼统的说
猫党我又出来了！！！！
leeone 发表于 2009-8-25 18:15
正确的说法是开F-14很久的老鸟对刚开F-15不久的老鸟
没记错那场模拟战是1974年,F-14已服役2年,F-15刚服役
为什么F-15会被引到低空,之前看过的资料是说F-15A的APG63俯视能力不足,所以只好跟着F-14到低空去
正确的说法是开F-14很久的老鸟对刚开F-15不久的老鸟
没记错那场模拟战是1974年,F-14已服役2年,F-15刚服役
为什么F-15会被引到低空,之前看过的资料是说F-15A的APG63俯视能力不足,所以只好跟着F-14到低空去
MD的空军现在到底是什么角色啊。。。
我认为进行这样的对比USAF不可能让菜鸟去和猫猫打,不过,我还是坚定的支持猫猫,因为......哦稀饭猫猫.
我认为进行这样的对比USAF不可能让菜鸟去和猫猫打,不过,我还是坚定的支持猫猫,因为......哦稀饭猫猫.
上些当年的新闻
当年的《航空知识》里有一篇文章介绍飞行包线，里面就引用这个案例。结论是14的飞行员狡猾，引15进入自己的包线内……
free_bug 发表于 2009-8-26 09:36
所谓飞行员狡猾，把敌机引进自己的包线范围内，然后取得空战胜利，都是些扯谈的技术。文学作品的内容而已。
所谓飞行员狡猾，把敌机引进自己的包线范围内，然后取得空战胜利，都是些扯谈的技术。文学作品的内容而已。
And last I checked, when the F-14A and F-15A first went at eachother, the fight was over in less than 80 seconds with both Tomcats holding gun tracking solutions on both Eagles, one at 10,000 feet, one at 30,000 feet. Then the photo footage of the F-15's getting waxed by the Tomcats got out in Aviation Week which caused a massive uproar with our generals because Japan was second-guessing their Eagle buy and it took a bit of coaxing to get them back. Of note, this fly-off was done at the end of AIMVAL/ACEVAL with some of the best crews available to both the USAF and USN at the time. Tomcat 1's crew was Joe "Hoser" Satrapa and Bill "Hill Billy" Hill, Tomcat 2 was Dan "Turk" Pentecost and Frank "Fearless" Schumacher; they split the fight into 2 1v1's, Hoser going low, Turk going high, both killing their Eagles with "minimal heavy breathing" over the radio.
Which made the Eagle's AIM/ACE patches "How about now, Baby?" (for example) pretty funny...
BUT!
The assessments made here by MB pretty much back what I hear from Tomcat crews: it depended on where you were in the envelope, and at what altitude, and where at.
VF-14 and VF-32 flew off against F-15's out of Langley in the late 1970's and found that in a multi-bogey environment, and in turning fights below 20,000 feet, the F-14 had the advantage. If they wound up higher than 20,000 feet, they lost a lot of advantages, adding to the fact that the TF-30 hated the thin air above that point. The Tomcat *might* have better wing loading, depending on its weapon configuration, getting as low as 55psf or as high as over 100psf, as related by Admiral Gilchrist. The Tomcat also had maneuver flaps and slats helping it at lower speeds. The Eagle had a massive advantage in T:W over the F-14A, and could also have a wing-loading advantage based upon the loadouts.
The F-14B was a real kick in the head, though, easily comparable to the F-15C, and again, depending on where you were, would either have advantage or disadvantage. Dave "Hey Joe" Parsons was one of the first to witness what the "Big Engines" did to the Tomcat, as his pilot entered a one-circle fight with an F-16, got the advantage, and as the Viper tried to use the vertical to escape, wound up getting gunned because the GE engines allowed the Tomcat to follow it without issue. Against the F-15, their first encounters in the late 1980's (1988, IIRC) the Tomcats utterly slaughtered the Eagles, who were not expecting them to follow into the vertical. In one fight Parsons describes the Bravo going "literally canopy-to-canopy with the Eagle." The debrief started with "Uhh...did you guys get new engines?" It was also one of the few planes that could chase down an RF-111F on the deck.
Another Tomcat driver, callsign "Cosmo" took his F-14B up against an Israeli F-16, wound up in a 4-and-a-half minute fight that ended with the F-16 calling Joker before a decisive victory could be had.
In essence, neither plane is better. Both have their advantages and their disadvantages, but it all depends on the pilot, not the plane. It doen't take a "Hoser," "Frosty," "Snort," or "Heater" to whoop someone's ass in even an "A-" Tomcat, it was a damn fine plane and designed from the onset to be able to dogfight.
But I'm just using the above examples to illustrate that point. In reality, I acknowledge full well that both the Tomcat and the Eagle are fine airframes, and I would not call one better than the other, realistically. It's the guy at the stick that decides the victor
Also, Eraser_tr hit the nail on the head. The Tomcat was not retired due to airfram capability at all; rather the axing of the program in 1992 by then-SECDEF Cheney. Not much for the airframes to do but get older, lack parts and eventually wear out their usefulness.
看不懂的都是暑假党!!!!!!
Which made the Eagle's AIM/ACE patches "How about now, Baby?" (for example) pretty funny...
BUT!
The assessments made here by MB pretty much back what I hear from Tomcat crews: it depended on where you were in the envelope, and at what altitude, and where at.
VF-14 and VF-32 flew off against F-15's out of Langley in the late 1970's and found that in a multi-bogey environment, and in turning fights below 20,000 feet, the F-14 had the advantage. If they wound up higher than 20,000 feet, they lost a lot of advantages, adding to the fact that the TF-30 hated the thin air above that point. The Tomcat *might* have better wing loading, depending on its weapon configuration, getting as low as 55psf or as high as over 100psf, as related by Admiral Gilchrist. The Tomcat also had maneuver flaps and slats helping it at lower speeds. The Eagle had a massive advantage in T:W over the F-14A, and could also have a wing-loading advantage based upon the loadouts.
The F-14B was a real kick in the head, though, easily comparable to the F-15C, and again, depending on where you were, would either have advantage or disadvantage. Dave "Hey Joe" Parsons was one of the first to witness what the "Big Engines" did to the Tomcat, as his pilot entered a one-circle fight with an F-16, got the advantage, and as the Viper tried to use the vertical to escape, wound up getting gunned because the GE engines allowed the Tomcat to follow it without issue. Against the F-15, their first encounters in the late 1980's (1988, IIRC) the Tomcats utterly slaughtered the Eagles, who were not expecting them to follow into the vertical. In one fight Parsons describes the Bravo going "literally canopy-to-canopy with the Eagle." The debrief started with "Uhh...did you guys get new engines?" It was also one of the few planes that could chase down an RF-111F on the deck.
Another Tomcat driver, callsign "Cosmo" took his F-14B up against an Israeli F-16, wound up in a 4-and-a-half minute fight that ended with the F-16 calling Joker before a decisive victory could be had.
In essence, neither plane is better. Both have their advantages and their disadvantages, but it all depends on the pilot, not the plane. It doen't take a "Hoser," "Frosty," "Snort," or "Heater" to whoop someone's ass in even an "A-" Tomcat, it was a damn fine plane and designed from the onset to be able to dogfight.
But I'm just using the above examples to illustrate that point. In reality, I acknowledge full well that both the Tomcat and the Eagle are fine airframes, and I would not call one better than the other, realistically. It's the guy at the stick that decides the victor
Also, Eraser_tr hit the nail on the head. The Tomcat was not retired due to airfram capability at all; rather the axing of the program in 1992 by then-SECDEF Cheney. Not much for the airframes to do but get older, lack parts and eventually wear out their usefulness.
看不懂的都是暑假党!!!!!!
之前和之后都有很多F-14和F-15、F-16的对抗，都没有报道。
单这次拿出来说，还不就是为了日本的采购计划，实际上F-14根本不符合要求，也达不到日本的要求。
要不然也就不会这么多吹嘘F-14的文章出来造势了。
单这次拿出来说，还不就是为了日本的采购计划，实际上F-14根本不符合要求，也达不到日本的要求。
要不然也就不会这么多吹嘘F-14的文章出来造势了。
ertert 发表于 2009-8-26 10:39
Indeed,this is truth...
Indeed,this is truth...
要是雄猫能完胜鹰的话，当今的空军也不装备这么多F-15了···
atletico 发表于 2009-8-25 19:07
同样用某人的逻辑来讲F-14也可以是菜鸟..........;P
同样用某人的逻辑来讲F-14也可以是菜鸟..........;P
如果当年克鲁斯开的不是F14而是F15去抱美人,真不知还有多少哈猫的[:a6:]
1895tet 发表于 2009-8-26 12:15
《核子航妈遇险记》里猫猫海扁零式的时候，已经造就不少猫FANS了……= =
《核子航妈遇险记》里猫猫海扁零式的时候，已经造就不少猫FANS了……= =
的确鹰的发动机可靠性差，可别忘了猫猫因为那滥发动机拖累导致推重比低啊
“F14把F15引到有利的低速区域”这句就有点可笑了，为啥猫猫能把鹰引进对自己的区域，鹰不敢把猫猫诱走进对自己有利的区域？
“F14把F15引到有利的低速区域”这句就有点可笑了，为啥猫猫能把鹰引进对自己的区域，鹰不敢把猫猫诱走进对自己有利的区域？