超级军网论孙子兵法对现代的影响（上）现代科学篇
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论孙子兵法对现代的影响（上）现代科学篇
How relevant is Sun Tzu with modern technology?
作者:翻译加工厂 发布日期:2012-11-08 浏览:13300
译文简介:
孙子及其兵法，在军队掌握着先进技术的现代战场还有什么实质作用吗？我是说我很确定孙子从来没见过喷气机，机关枪，导弹和坦克 :D
译文来源:
ht tp://w ww.historum.com/war-military-history/38128-sun-tzu-how-relevant-confilcts-today.html
正文翻译:
-------------译者：佳宝哥哥 审核者：tvenana-------------
Cavanboy
Country: Australia
Just how relevant is Sun Tzu and his art of war on today's battlefield with the advanced technology army's can possess, I mean I'm sure Sun Tzu never encountered jet planes, machine guns, missiles and tanks :D
孙子及其兵法，在军队掌握着先进技术的现代战场还有什么实质作用吗？我是说我很确定孙子从来没见过喷气机，机关枪，导弹和坦克 :D
评论翻译:
原创翻译：龙腾网 h ttp://w ww.ltaaa.com 翻译：翻译加工厂 转载请注明出处
-------------译者：tvenana 审核者：tvenana-------------
Mangekyou
Country: United Kingdom
Sun Tzu is used quite effectively in Business as opposed to on the battlefield, these days, but some of his concepts can still be readily used quite readily.
This is an insightful book to read relating to that matter:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sun-Tzu-Art-Modern-Warfare/dp/0195161084?tag=upsideout-21
Mangekyou
国家: 英国
孙子兵法在商业方面被运用得相当有效而非在战场上，如今，他的一些理念仍然极易使用。这是本与之有关的见解深刻的书：h ttp:// w ww.amazon.co.uk/Sun-Tzu-Art-Modern-Warfare/dp/0195161084?tag=upsideout-21
Bart Dale
Country: United States
The problem I find with Sun Tzu is that he speaks in really broad generalities as to almost to be useless. Clauwitz at least makes some valid philosophical points, such as war is the extension of politics, something which is useful for politicians, especially ones in democracy, to keep in mind.
Bart Dale
国家: 美国
我发现孙子兵法的问题是他说得太笼统太宽泛以至于没用。克劳塞维茨(德国军事理论家和军事历史学家，普鲁士军队少将，著有《战争论》)至少有点有用的哲学观点，比如“战争是政治的延续”，一些对政客有用的东西， 这些有用的东西值得政客们，特别是民主制度下的政客们，牢记在心。
Belgarion
Country: Australia
The basic concepts remain the same, no matter how advanced the technology.
Belgarion
国家: 澳大利亚
不论科技有多先进，基本理念还是相同的。
Apachewarlord
Country: United States
Most of the time, Sun Tzu's teachings are not things like "If they have spears and you have swords aproach them from the left" or something like that, they deal more with the broader concepts, one is where instead of bringing your own supplies take from the enemies. I believe that this is still relevant.
Apachewarlord
国家: 美国
绝大多数时间，孙子的学说并非是“如果他们有矛你有剑，从左边接近他们”或是类似的言论，它们涉及更宽泛的理念，是一种自己不带物资，从敌军身上取的理念（善用兵者,役不再籍,粮不三载。取用于国,因粮于敌,故军食可足也——孙子）。我相信这思想仍然有巨大作用。
(回楼上）
sylla1
Country: Mexico
Good point; The Art of War is fundamentally about strategy, not tactics; we must agree with the ostensible consensus here.
sylla1
国家: 墨西哥
说得好，孙子兵法根本上是关于谋略，而不是战术；这里我们必须达成明显的共识。
-------------译者：佳宝哥哥 审核者：hpyp-------------
Belloc
Country: United States
I think Sun Tzu is still relevant, since strategy is more permanent by nature than tactics. I think the greater challenge is properly understanding Sun Tzu, taking into effect the different culture and context he lived. This is also one reason why comparisons to Clausewitz often go nowhere, since both men are misunderstood.
Having said that, I do find most references made to Sun Tzu in pop culture to be utter nonsense.
Belloc
国家: 美国
我认为孙子兵法仍然还有巨大影响，因为战略天生比战术更持久。我认为更大的挑战是正确的理解孙子兵法，代入他生活的不同的文化和环境。这也是为什么跟克劳塞维茨比较没什么意义的一个原因，因为两人都被误解了。
但话说回来，我确实发现大多数通俗文化中对孙子兵法的引用完全是一派胡言。
Apachewarlord
Country: United States
Forgive my ignorance, But whose Clausewitz?
Apachewarlord
国家: 美国
原谅我的无知，但谁是克劳塞维茨？
sylla1
Country: Mexico
（回lss）
Must entirely agree
（回ls）
Carl Philipp Gottfried von Clausewitz ：http://www.clausewitz.com/index.htm
sylla1
国家: 墨西哥
必须完全同意
（回ls）
克劳塞维茨全名和介绍他的网站
Belloc
Country: United States
Karl von Clausewitz is the premiere Western military thinker, author of On War. Here's a major resource on his work: http://www.clausewitz.com/
Belloc
国家: 美国
克劳塞维茨是首位西方军事思想家，《战争论》的作者。这里是介绍他作品的一个主要资源站：http://www.clausewitz.com/
Cavanboy
Country: Australia
I'm more so talking g about the "in war numbers count for nothing" and the "soldiers fight better with their backs against the wall" and the "no country benefits from prolonged warfare"
Cavanboy
国家: 澳大利亚
我更是要说“战争里数字毫无意义(译注：查不出出处)”和“士兵背靠坚墙，作战更骁勇(投之亡地而后存，陷之死地然后生——《孙子.九地》” 和“没有任何国家能从长期战争中获益(夫兵久而国利者，未之有也。——《孙子.作战篇》)”
Belgarion
Country: Australia
All still relevant. We can certainly see the latter concept at play in Afghanistan today.
Belgarion
国家: 澳大利亚
都仍然有影响。今日我们可以看到后者的的理念在阿富汗被应用。
-------------译者：欧阳雨凌 审核者：寒灯独夜人-------------
caldrail
Country: United Kingdom
国家：大不列颠及北爱尔兰联合王国
The trouble with Sun Tzu is that he wrote some philosophy on military strategy, not strategy itself. As general concepts there's something to be said for it I suppose, but ultimately putting it into practice requires awareness and ability - the very same that would make a general successful anyway even if he'd never heard of Sun Tzu at all.
孙子思想的核心是军事战略哲学，而非战略本身。哲学这东西讲一讲也可以，但实践哲学最终还是需要悟性和能力，（但如果你已经有了悟性和能力）就算从未听过孙子也照样可以获得成功。
Another problem is that we sometimes assume such works are there to educate and assist those who read it. That isn't necessarily so and may in fact have been written merely to make the writer an acknowledged expert in his field. That doesn't prove the man right - just that he wants be seen as such.
另外一个问题，我们一般将孙子兵法这类东西当成专门用来帮助教育阅读者的东西。其实不是这样，作者写这些书或许只是为了确立自己在这一领域内的权威身份。
。作者的观点正确与否并不重要，关键在于作者“希望”是这个样子。
As for the use of Sun Tzu in business, that's mostly the preserve of people who make a great deal of money peddling instant success on managerial courses costing a lot of money. Generally speaking the utilisation of Sun Tzu's military philosophy in business is also subject to interpretation by the individual and again, his ability to utilise the advice would also be the same talent that would make him a success anyway. But then, most successful businessmen don't bother themselves with philosophy, and for that matter, neither do soldiers.
至于将孙子兵法应用于商战，那都是只会在管理学课上纸上谈兵，花大笔钱做发财梦的书呆子才会说的话。一般来说，每个人对孙子兵法也有不同的理解。一个人若有孙子兵法里知识应用于实战能力，那此人离成功已经不远了。。话说回来，最成功的商人从来不会让各种各样的哲学观念弄晕自己，成功的战士也应如此。
Cavanboy
Country: Australia
I'm not sure about that, theirs a few ex soldiers here!
国家：澳大利亚
我不太清楚，这有很多退伍军人！（？）
（回ls）
caldrail
Country: United Kingdom
So what? If you ask those ex-soldiers, you'll find they followed the tactical doctrine they were given by those soldiers who trained them. That training in our modern day is based upon roughly the last century of experience in the real world. Sun Tzu had nothing to do with it.
国家：大不列颠及北爱尔兰联合王国
那又如何？如果你去问那些退伍军人，他们遵循的是训练他们的士兵们所告知他们的战术原则。现代军事训练基于上个世纪现实的战争经验。孙子与此无关。
Congo
Country: United States
国家：美利坚合众国
Oops.
呵呵
wrong thread.
错误的线索：请看下篇
Sun-Tzu - How relevant to confilcts today?
h ttp://w ww.historum.com/war-military-history/38128-sun-tzu-how-relevant-confilcts-today-3.html#post12461359
（译注：帖子的内容也就是下篇——现代战争，待加工厂完工后会推出）
Temujin
Country: United Kingdom
国家：大不列颠及北爱尔兰联合王国
There are some pretty applicable points Sun Tzu makes. He said that a war should never drag on, which is what happened in Iraq and did indeed prove terrible. He talked of things such as loyalty which are still very important. Wars such as Vietnam, Libya and the Chinese Civil War have shown how important patriotism can be.
孙子兵法还是有相当一部分能适应（现代）的。孙子说战争不应拖延，伊拉克发生的事情就很好的证明了这一点。他提及的一些东西，比如忠诚，现在依然重要。越南战争、比利亚战争还有中国的解放战争都证明了爱国主义的重要性。论孙子兵法对现代的影响（上）现代科学篇
How relevant is Sun Tzu with modern technology?
作者:翻译加工厂 发布日期:2012-11-08 浏览:13300
译文简介:
孙子及其兵法，在军队掌握着先进技术的现代战场还有什么实质作用吗？我是说我很确定孙子从来没见过喷气机，机关枪，导弹和坦克 :D
译文来源:
ht tp://w ww.historum.com/war-military-history/38128-sun-tzu-how-relevant-confilcts-today.html
正文翻译:
-------------译者：佳宝哥哥 审核者：tvenana-------------
Cavanboy
Country: Australia
Just how relevant is Sun Tzu and his art of war on today's battlefield with the advanced technology army's can possess, I mean I'm sure Sun Tzu never encountered jet planes, machine guns, missiles and tanks :D
孙子及其兵法，在军队掌握着先进技术的现代战场还有什么实质作用吗？我是说我很确定孙子从来没见过喷气机，机关枪，导弹和坦克 :D
评论翻译:
原创翻译：龙腾网 h ttp://w ww.ltaaa.com 翻译：翻译加工厂 转载请注明出处
-------------译者：tvenana 审核者：tvenana-------------
Mangekyou
Country: United Kingdom
Sun Tzu is used quite effectively in Business as opposed to on the battlefield, these days, but some of his concepts can still be readily used quite readily.
This is an insightful book to read relating to that matter:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sun-Tzu-Art-Modern-Warfare/dp/0195161084?tag=upsideout-21
Mangekyou
国家: 英国
孙子兵法在商业方面被运用得相当有效而非在战场上，如今，他的一些理念仍然极易使用。这是本与之有关的见解深刻的书：h ttp:// w ww.amazon.co.uk/Sun-Tzu-Art-Modern-Warfare/dp/0195161084?tag=upsideout-21
Bart Dale
Country: United States
The problem I find with Sun Tzu is that he speaks in really broad generalities as to almost to be useless. Clauwitz at least makes some valid philosophical points, such as war is the extension of politics, something which is useful for politicians, especially ones in democracy, to keep in mind.
Bart Dale
国家: 美国
我发现孙子兵法的问题是他说得太笼统太宽泛以至于没用。克劳塞维茨(德国军事理论家和军事历史学家，普鲁士军队少将，著有《战争论》)至少有点有用的哲学观点，比如“战争是政治的延续”，一些对政客有用的东西， 这些有用的东西值得政客们，特别是民主制度下的政客们，牢记在心。
Belgarion
Country: Australia
The basic concepts remain the same, no matter how advanced the technology.
Belgarion
国家: 澳大利亚
不论科技有多先进，基本理念还是相同的。
Apachewarlord
Country: United States
Most of the time, Sun Tzu's teachings are not things like "If they have spears and you have swords aproach them from the left" or something like that, they deal more with the broader concepts, one is where instead of bringing your own supplies take from the enemies. I believe that this is still relevant.
Apachewarlord
国家: 美国
绝大多数时间，孙子的学说并非是“如果他们有矛你有剑，从左边接近他们”或是类似的言论，它们涉及更宽泛的理念，是一种自己不带物资，从敌军身上取的理念（善用兵者,役不再籍,粮不三载。取用于国,因粮于敌,故军食可足也——孙子）。我相信这思想仍然有巨大作用。
(回楼上）
sylla1
Country: Mexico
Good point; The Art of War is fundamentally about strategy, not tactics; we must agree with the ostensible consensus here.
sylla1
国家: 墨西哥
说得好，孙子兵法根本上是关于谋略，而不是战术；这里我们必须达成明显的共识。
-------------译者：佳宝哥哥 审核者：hpyp-------------
Belloc
Country: United States
I think Sun Tzu is still relevant, since strategy is more permanent by nature than tactics. I think the greater challenge is properly understanding Sun Tzu, taking into effect the different culture and context he lived. This is also one reason why comparisons to Clausewitz often go nowhere, since both men are misunderstood.
Having said that, I do find most references made to Sun Tzu in pop culture to be utter nonsense.
Belloc
国家: 美国
我认为孙子兵法仍然还有巨大影响，因为战略天生比战术更持久。我认为更大的挑战是正确的理解孙子兵法，代入他生活的不同的文化和环境。这也是为什么跟克劳塞维茨比较没什么意义的一个原因，因为两人都被误解了。
但话说回来，我确实发现大多数通俗文化中对孙子兵法的引用完全是一派胡言。
Apachewarlord
Country: United States
Forgive my ignorance, But whose Clausewitz?
Apachewarlord
国家: 美国
原谅我的无知，但谁是克劳塞维茨？
sylla1
Country: Mexico
（回lss）
Must entirely agree
（回ls）
Carl Philipp Gottfried von Clausewitz ：http://www.clausewitz.com/index.htm
sylla1
国家: 墨西哥
必须完全同意
（回ls）
克劳塞维茨全名和介绍他的网站
Belloc
Country: United States
Karl von Clausewitz is the premiere Western military thinker, author of On War. Here's a major resource on his work: http://www.clausewitz.com/
Belloc
国家: 美国
克劳塞维茨是首位西方军事思想家，《战争论》的作者。这里是介绍他作品的一个主要资源站：http://www.clausewitz.com/
Cavanboy
Country: Australia
I'm more so talking g about the "in war numbers count for nothing" and the "soldiers fight better with their backs against the wall" and the "no country benefits from prolonged warfare"
Cavanboy
国家: 澳大利亚
我更是要说“战争里数字毫无意义(译注：查不出出处)”和“士兵背靠坚墙，作战更骁勇(投之亡地而后存，陷之死地然后生——《孙子.九地》” 和“没有任何国家能从长期战争中获益(夫兵久而国利者，未之有也。——《孙子.作战篇》)”
Belgarion
Country: Australia
All still relevant. We can certainly see the latter concept at play in Afghanistan today.
Belgarion
国家: 澳大利亚
都仍然有影响。今日我们可以看到后者的的理念在阿富汗被应用。
-------------译者：欧阳雨凌 审核者：寒灯独夜人-------------
caldrail
Country: United Kingdom
国家：大不列颠及北爱尔兰联合王国
The trouble with Sun Tzu is that he wrote some philosophy on military strategy, not strategy itself. As general concepts there's something to be said for it I suppose, but ultimately putting it into practice requires awareness and ability - the very same that would make a general successful anyway even if he'd never heard of Sun Tzu at all.
孙子思想的核心是军事战略哲学，而非战略本身。哲学这东西讲一讲也可以，但实践哲学最终还是需要悟性和能力，（但如果你已经有了悟性和能力）就算从未听过孙子也照样可以获得成功。
Another problem is that we sometimes assume such works are there to educate and assist those who read it. That isn't necessarily so and may in fact have been written merely to make the writer an acknowledged expert in his field. That doesn't prove the man right - just that he wants be seen as such.
另外一个问题，我们一般将孙子兵法这类东西当成专门用来帮助教育阅读者的东西。其实不是这样，作者写这些书或许只是为了确立自己在这一领域内的权威身份。
。作者的观点正确与否并不重要，关键在于作者“希望”是这个样子。
As for the use of Sun Tzu in business, that's mostly the preserve of people who make a great deal of money peddling instant success on managerial courses costing a lot of money. Generally speaking the utilisation of Sun Tzu's military philosophy in business is also subject to interpretation by the individual and again, his ability to utilise the advice would also be the same talent that would make him a success anyway. But then, most successful businessmen don't bother themselves with philosophy, and for that matter, neither do soldiers.
至于将孙子兵法应用于商战，那都是只会在管理学课上纸上谈兵，花大笔钱做发财梦的书呆子才会说的话。一般来说，每个人对孙子兵法也有不同的理解。一个人若有孙子兵法里知识应用于实战能力，那此人离成功已经不远了。。话说回来，最成功的商人从来不会让各种各样的哲学观念弄晕自己，成功的战士也应如此。
Cavanboy
Country: Australia
I'm not sure about that, theirs a few ex soldiers here!
国家：澳大利亚
我不太清楚，这有很多退伍军人！（？）
（回ls）
caldrail
Country: United Kingdom
So what? If you ask those ex-soldiers, you'll find they followed the tactical doctrine they were given by those soldiers who trained them. That training in our modern day is based upon roughly the last century of experience in the real world. Sun Tzu had nothing to do with it.
国家：大不列颠及北爱尔兰联合王国
那又如何？如果你去问那些退伍军人，他们遵循的是训练他们的士兵们所告知他们的战术原则。现代军事训练基于上个世纪现实的战争经验。孙子与此无关。
Congo
Country: United States
国家：美利坚合众国
Oops.
呵呵
wrong thread.
错误的线索：请看下篇
Sun-Tzu - How relevant to confilcts today?
h ttp://w ww.historum.com/war-military-history/38128-sun-tzu-how-relevant-confilcts-today-3.html#post12461359
（译注：帖子的内容也就是下篇——现代战争，待加工厂完工后会推出）
Temujin
Country: United Kingdom
国家：大不列颠及北爱尔兰联合王国
There are some pretty applicable points Sun Tzu makes. He said that a war should never drag on, which is what happened in Iraq and did indeed prove terrible. He talked of things such as loyalty which are still very important. Wars such as Vietnam, Libya and the Chinese Civil War have shown how important patriotism can be.
孙子兵法还是有相当一部分能适应（现代）的。孙子说战争不应拖延，伊拉克发生的事情就很好的证明了这一点。他提及的一些东西，比如忠诚，现在依然重要。越南战争、比利亚战争还有中国的解放战争都证明了爱国主义的重要性。
How relevant is Sun Tzu with modern technology?
作者:翻译加工厂 发布日期:2012-11-08 浏览:13300
译文简介:
孙子及其兵法，在军队掌握着先进技术的现代战场还有什么实质作用吗？我是说我很确定孙子从来没见过喷气机，机关枪，导弹和坦克 :D
译文来源:
ht tp://w ww.historum.com/war-military-history/38128-sun-tzu-how-relevant-confilcts-today.html
正文翻译:
-------------译者：佳宝哥哥 审核者：tvenana-------------
Cavanboy
Country: Australia
Just how relevant is Sun Tzu and his art of war on today's battlefield with the advanced technology army's can possess, I mean I'm sure Sun Tzu never encountered jet planes, machine guns, missiles and tanks :D
孙子及其兵法，在军队掌握着先进技术的现代战场还有什么实质作用吗？我是说我很确定孙子从来没见过喷气机，机关枪，导弹和坦克 :D
评论翻译:
原创翻译：龙腾网 h ttp://w ww.ltaaa.com 翻译：翻译加工厂 转载请注明出处
-------------译者：tvenana 审核者：tvenana-------------
Mangekyou
Country: United Kingdom
Sun Tzu is used quite effectively in Business as opposed to on the battlefield, these days, but some of his concepts can still be readily used quite readily.
This is an insightful book to read relating to that matter:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sun-Tzu-Art-Modern-Warfare/dp/0195161084?tag=upsideout-21
Mangekyou
国家: 英国
孙子兵法在商业方面被运用得相当有效而非在战场上，如今，他的一些理念仍然极易使用。这是本与之有关的见解深刻的书：h ttp:// w ww.amazon.co.uk/Sun-Tzu-Art-Modern-Warfare/dp/0195161084?tag=upsideout-21
Bart Dale
Country: United States
The problem I find with Sun Tzu is that he speaks in really broad generalities as to almost to be useless. Clauwitz at least makes some valid philosophical points, such as war is the extension of politics, something which is useful for politicians, especially ones in democracy, to keep in mind.
Bart Dale
国家: 美国
我发现孙子兵法的问题是他说得太笼统太宽泛以至于没用。克劳塞维茨(德国军事理论家和军事历史学家，普鲁士军队少将，著有《战争论》)至少有点有用的哲学观点，比如“战争是政治的延续”，一些对政客有用的东西， 这些有用的东西值得政客们，特别是民主制度下的政客们，牢记在心。
Belgarion
Country: Australia
The basic concepts remain the same, no matter how advanced the technology.
Belgarion
国家: 澳大利亚
不论科技有多先进，基本理念还是相同的。
Apachewarlord
Country: United States
Most of the time, Sun Tzu's teachings are not things like "If they have spears and you have swords aproach them from the left" or something like that, they deal more with the broader concepts, one is where instead of bringing your own supplies take from the enemies. I believe that this is still relevant.
Apachewarlord
国家: 美国
绝大多数时间，孙子的学说并非是“如果他们有矛你有剑，从左边接近他们”或是类似的言论，它们涉及更宽泛的理念，是一种自己不带物资，从敌军身上取的理念（善用兵者,役不再籍,粮不三载。取用于国,因粮于敌,故军食可足也——孙子）。我相信这思想仍然有巨大作用。
(回楼上）
sylla1
Country: Mexico
Good point; The Art of War is fundamentally about strategy, not tactics; we must agree with the ostensible consensus here.
sylla1
国家: 墨西哥
说得好，孙子兵法根本上是关于谋略，而不是战术；这里我们必须达成明显的共识。
-------------译者：佳宝哥哥 审核者：hpyp-------------
Belloc
Country: United States
I think Sun Tzu is still relevant, since strategy is more permanent by nature than tactics. I think the greater challenge is properly understanding Sun Tzu, taking into effect the different culture and context he lived. This is also one reason why comparisons to Clausewitz often go nowhere, since both men are misunderstood.
Having said that, I do find most references made to Sun Tzu in pop culture to be utter nonsense.
Belloc
国家: 美国
我认为孙子兵法仍然还有巨大影响，因为战略天生比战术更持久。我认为更大的挑战是正确的理解孙子兵法，代入他生活的不同的文化和环境。这也是为什么跟克劳塞维茨比较没什么意义的一个原因，因为两人都被误解了。
但话说回来，我确实发现大多数通俗文化中对孙子兵法的引用完全是一派胡言。
Apachewarlord
Country: United States
Forgive my ignorance, But whose Clausewitz?
Apachewarlord
国家: 美国
原谅我的无知，但谁是克劳塞维茨？
sylla1
Country: Mexico
（回lss）
Must entirely agree
（回ls）
Carl Philipp Gottfried von Clausewitz ：http://www.clausewitz.com/index.htm
sylla1
国家: 墨西哥
必须完全同意
（回ls）
克劳塞维茨全名和介绍他的网站
Belloc
Country: United States
Karl von Clausewitz is the premiere Western military thinker, author of On War. Here's a major resource on his work: http://www.clausewitz.com/
Belloc
国家: 美国
克劳塞维茨是首位西方军事思想家，《战争论》的作者。这里是介绍他作品的一个主要资源站：http://www.clausewitz.com/
Cavanboy
Country: Australia
I'm more so talking g about the "in war numbers count for nothing" and the "soldiers fight better with their backs against the wall" and the "no country benefits from prolonged warfare"
Cavanboy
国家: 澳大利亚
我更是要说“战争里数字毫无意义(译注：查不出出处)”和“士兵背靠坚墙，作战更骁勇(投之亡地而后存，陷之死地然后生——《孙子.九地》” 和“没有任何国家能从长期战争中获益(夫兵久而国利者，未之有也。——《孙子.作战篇》)”
Belgarion
Country: Australia
All still relevant. We can certainly see the latter concept at play in Afghanistan today.
Belgarion
国家: 澳大利亚
都仍然有影响。今日我们可以看到后者的的理念在阿富汗被应用。
-------------译者：欧阳雨凌 审核者：寒灯独夜人-------------
caldrail
Country: United Kingdom
国家：大不列颠及北爱尔兰联合王国
The trouble with Sun Tzu is that he wrote some philosophy on military strategy, not strategy itself. As general concepts there's something to be said for it I suppose, but ultimately putting it into practice requires awareness and ability - the very same that would make a general successful anyway even if he'd never heard of Sun Tzu at all.
孙子思想的核心是军事战略哲学，而非战略本身。哲学这东西讲一讲也可以，但实践哲学最终还是需要悟性和能力，（但如果你已经有了悟性和能力）就算从未听过孙子也照样可以获得成功。
Another problem is that we sometimes assume such works are there to educate and assist those who read it. That isn't necessarily so and may in fact have been written merely to make the writer an acknowledged expert in his field. That doesn't prove the man right - just that he wants be seen as such.
另外一个问题，我们一般将孙子兵法这类东西当成专门用来帮助教育阅读者的东西。其实不是这样，作者写这些书或许只是为了确立自己在这一领域内的权威身份。
。作者的观点正确与否并不重要，关键在于作者“希望”是这个样子。
As for the use of Sun Tzu in business, that's mostly the preserve of people who make a great deal of money peddling instant success on managerial courses costing a lot of money. Generally speaking the utilisation of Sun Tzu's military philosophy in business is also subject to interpretation by the individual and again, his ability to utilise the advice would also be the same talent that would make him a success anyway. But then, most successful businessmen don't bother themselves with philosophy, and for that matter, neither do soldiers.
至于将孙子兵法应用于商战，那都是只会在管理学课上纸上谈兵，花大笔钱做发财梦的书呆子才会说的话。一般来说，每个人对孙子兵法也有不同的理解。一个人若有孙子兵法里知识应用于实战能力，那此人离成功已经不远了。。话说回来，最成功的商人从来不会让各种各样的哲学观念弄晕自己，成功的战士也应如此。
Cavanboy
Country: Australia
I'm not sure about that, theirs a few ex soldiers here!
国家：澳大利亚
我不太清楚，这有很多退伍军人！（？）
（回ls）
caldrail
Country: United Kingdom
So what? If you ask those ex-soldiers, you'll find they followed the tactical doctrine they were given by those soldiers who trained them. That training in our modern day is based upon roughly the last century of experience in the real world. Sun Tzu had nothing to do with it.
国家：大不列颠及北爱尔兰联合王国
那又如何？如果你去问那些退伍军人，他们遵循的是训练他们的士兵们所告知他们的战术原则。现代军事训练基于上个世纪现实的战争经验。孙子与此无关。
Congo
Country: United States
国家：美利坚合众国
Oops.
呵呵
wrong thread.
错误的线索：请看下篇
Sun-Tzu - How relevant to confilcts today?
h ttp://w ww.historum.com/war-military-history/38128-sun-tzu-how-relevant-confilcts-today-3.html#post12461359
（译注：帖子的内容也就是下篇——现代战争，待加工厂完工后会推出）
Temujin
Country: United Kingdom
国家：大不列颠及北爱尔兰联合王国
There are some pretty applicable points Sun Tzu makes. He said that a war should never drag on, which is what happened in Iraq and did indeed prove terrible. He talked of things such as loyalty which are still very important. Wars such as Vietnam, Libya and the Chinese Civil War have shown how important patriotism can be.
孙子兵法还是有相当一部分能适应（现代）的。孙子说战争不应拖延，伊拉克发生的事情就很好的证明了这一点。他提及的一些东西，比如忠诚，现在依然重要。越南战争、比利亚战争还有中国的解放战争都证明了爱国主义的重要性。论孙子兵法对现代的影响（上）现代科学篇
How relevant is Sun Tzu with modern technology?
作者:翻译加工厂 发布日期:2012-11-08 浏览:13300
译文简介:
孙子及其兵法，在军队掌握着先进技术的现代战场还有什么实质作用吗？我是说我很确定孙子从来没见过喷气机，机关枪，导弹和坦克 :D
译文来源:
ht tp://w ww.historum.com/war-military-history/38128-sun-tzu-how-relevant-confilcts-today.html
正文翻译:
-------------译者：佳宝哥哥 审核者：tvenana-------------
Cavanboy
Country: Australia
Just how relevant is Sun Tzu and his art of war on today's battlefield with the advanced technology army's can possess, I mean I'm sure Sun Tzu never encountered jet planes, machine guns, missiles and tanks :D
孙子及其兵法，在军队掌握着先进技术的现代战场还有什么实质作用吗？我是说我很确定孙子从来没见过喷气机，机关枪，导弹和坦克 :D
评论翻译:
原创翻译：龙腾网 h ttp://w ww.ltaaa.com 翻译：翻译加工厂 转载请注明出处
-------------译者：tvenana 审核者：tvenana-------------
Mangekyou
Country: United Kingdom
Sun Tzu is used quite effectively in Business as opposed to on the battlefield, these days, but some of his concepts can still be readily used quite readily.
This is an insightful book to read relating to that matter:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sun-Tzu-Art-Modern-Warfare/dp/0195161084?tag=upsideout-21
Mangekyou
国家: 英国
孙子兵法在商业方面被运用得相当有效而非在战场上，如今，他的一些理念仍然极易使用。这是本与之有关的见解深刻的书：h ttp:// w ww.amazon.co.uk/Sun-Tzu-Art-Modern-Warfare/dp/0195161084?tag=upsideout-21
Bart Dale
Country: United States
The problem I find with Sun Tzu is that he speaks in really broad generalities as to almost to be useless. Clauwitz at least makes some valid philosophical points, such as war is the extension of politics, something which is useful for politicians, especially ones in democracy, to keep in mind.
Bart Dale
国家: 美国
我发现孙子兵法的问题是他说得太笼统太宽泛以至于没用。克劳塞维茨(德国军事理论家和军事历史学家，普鲁士军队少将，著有《战争论》)至少有点有用的哲学观点，比如“战争是政治的延续”，一些对政客有用的东西， 这些有用的东西值得政客们，特别是民主制度下的政客们，牢记在心。
Belgarion
Country: Australia
The basic concepts remain the same, no matter how advanced the technology.
Belgarion
国家: 澳大利亚
不论科技有多先进，基本理念还是相同的。
Apachewarlord
Country: United States
Most of the time, Sun Tzu's teachings are not things like "If they have spears and you have swords aproach them from the left" or something like that, they deal more with the broader concepts, one is where instead of bringing your own supplies take from the enemies. I believe that this is still relevant.
Apachewarlord
国家: 美国
绝大多数时间，孙子的学说并非是“如果他们有矛你有剑，从左边接近他们”或是类似的言论，它们涉及更宽泛的理念，是一种自己不带物资，从敌军身上取的理念（善用兵者,役不再籍,粮不三载。取用于国,因粮于敌,故军食可足也——孙子）。我相信这思想仍然有巨大作用。
(回楼上）
sylla1
Country: Mexico
Good point; The Art of War is fundamentally about strategy, not tactics; we must agree with the ostensible consensus here.
sylla1
国家: 墨西哥
说得好，孙子兵法根本上是关于谋略，而不是战术；这里我们必须达成明显的共识。
-------------译者：佳宝哥哥 审核者：hpyp-------------
Belloc
Country: United States
I think Sun Tzu is still relevant, since strategy is more permanent by nature than tactics. I think the greater challenge is properly understanding Sun Tzu, taking into effect the different culture and context he lived. This is also one reason why comparisons to Clausewitz often go nowhere, since both men are misunderstood.
Having said that, I do find most references made to Sun Tzu in pop culture to be utter nonsense.
Belloc
国家: 美国
我认为孙子兵法仍然还有巨大影响，因为战略天生比战术更持久。我认为更大的挑战是正确的理解孙子兵法，代入他生活的不同的文化和环境。这也是为什么跟克劳塞维茨比较没什么意义的一个原因，因为两人都被误解了。
但话说回来，我确实发现大多数通俗文化中对孙子兵法的引用完全是一派胡言。
Apachewarlord
Country: United States
Forgive my ignorance, But whose Clausewitz?
Apachewarlord
国家: 美国
原谅我的无知，但谁是克劳塞维茨？
sylla1
Country: Mexico
（回lss）
Must entirely agree
（回ls）
Carl Philipp Gottfried von Clausewitz ：http://www.clausewitz.com/index.htm
sylla1
国家: 墨西哥
必须完全同意
（回ls）
克劳塞维茨全名和介绍他的网站
Belloc
Country: United States
Karl von Clausewitz is the premiere Western military thinker, author of On War. Here's a major resource on his work: http://www.clausewitz.com/
Belloc
国家: 美国
克劳塞维茨是首位西方军事思想家，《战争论》的作者。这里是介绍他作品的一个主要资源站：http://www.clausewitz.com/
Cavanboy
Country: Australia
I'm more so talking g about the "in war numbers count for nothing" and the "soldiers fight better with their backs against the wall" and the "no country benefits from prolonged warfare"
Cavanboy
国家: 澳大利亚
我更是要说“战争里数字毫无意义(译注：查不出出处)”和“士兵背靠坚墙，作战更骁勇(投之亡地而后存，陷之死地然后生——《孙子.九地》” 和“没有任何国家能从长期战争中获益(夫兵久而国利者，未之有也。——《孙子.作战篇》)”
Belgarion
Country: Australia
All still relevant. We can certainly see the latter concept at play in Afghanistan today.
Belgarion
国家: 澳大利亚
都仍然有影响。今日我们可以看到后者的的理念在阿富汗被应用。
-------------译者：欧阳雨凌 审核者：寒灯独夜人-------------
caldrail
Country: United Kingdom
国家：大不列颠及北爱尔兰联合王国
The trouble with Sun Tzu is that he wrote some philosophy on military strategy, not strategy itself. As general concepts there's something to be said for it I suppose, but ultimately putting it into practice requires awareness and ability - the very same that would make a general successful anyway even if he'd never heard of Sun Tzu at all.
孙子思想的核心是军事战略哲学，而非战略本身。哲学这东西讲一讲也可以，但实践哲学最终还是需要悟性和能力，（但如果你已经有了悟性和能力）就算从未听过孙子也照样可以获得成功。
Another problem is that we sometimes assume such works are there to educate and assist those who read it. That isn't necessarily so and may in fact have been written merely to make the writer an acknowledged expert in his field. That doesn't prove the man right - just that he wants be seen as such.
另外一个问题，我们一般将孙子兵法这类东西当成专门用来帮助教育阅读者的东西。其实不是这样，作者写这些书或许只是为了确立自己在这一领域内的权威身份。
。作者的观点正确与否并不重要，关键在于作者“希望”是这个样子。
As for the use of Sun Tzu in business, that's mostly the preserve of people who make a great deal of money peddling instant success on managerial courses costing a lot of money. Generally speaking the utilisation of Sun Tzu's military philosophy in business is also subject to interpretation by the individual and again, his ability to utilise the advice would also be the same talent that would make him a success anyway. But then, most successful businessmen don't bother themselves with philosophy, and for that matter, neither do soldiers.
至于将孙子兵法应用于商战，那都是只会在管理学课上纸上谈兵，花大笔钱做发财梦的书呆子才会说的话。一般来说，每个人对孙子兵法也有不同的理解。一个人若有孙子兵法里知识应用于实战能力，那此人离成功已经不远了。。话说回来，最成功的商人从来不会让各种各样的哲学观念弄晕自己，成功的战士也应如此。
Cavanboy
Country: Australia
I'm not sure about that, theirs a few ex soldiers here!
国家：澳大利亚
我不太清楚，这有很多退伍军人！（？）
（回ls）
caldrail
Country: United Kingdom
So what? If you ask those ex-soldiers, you'll find they followed the tactical doctrine they were given by those soldiers who trained them. That training in our modern day is based upon roughly the last century of experience in the real world. Sun Tzu had nothing to do with it.
国家：大不列颠及北爱尔兰联合王国
那又如何？如果你去问那些退伍军人，他们遵循的是训练他们的士兵们所告知他们的战术原则。现代军事训练基于上个世纪现实的战争经验。孙子与此无关。
Congo
Country: United States
国家：美利坚合众国
Oops.
呵呵
wrong thread.
错误的线索：请看下篇
Sun-Tzu - How relevant to confilcts today?
h ttp://w ww.historum.com/war-military-history/38128-sun-tzu-how-relevant-confilcts-today-3.html#post12461359
（译注：帖子的内容也就是下篇——现代战争，待加工厂完工后会推出）
Temujin
Country: United Kingdom
国家：大不列颠及北爱尔兰联合王国
There are some pretty applicable points Sun Tzu makes. He said that a war should never drag on, which is what happened in Iraq and did indeed prove terrible. He talked of things such as loyalty which are still very important. Wars such as Vietnam, Libya and the Chinese Civil War have shown how important patriotism can be.
孙子兵法还是有相当一部分能适应（现代）的。孙子说战争不应拖延，伊拉克发生的事情就很好的证明了这一点。他提及的一些东西，比如忠诚，现在依然重要。越南战争、比利亚战争还有中国的解放战争都证明了爱国主义的重要性。