有谁知道明朝与英国的战争？

1637年11月22日英商在广州答应中国的要求，赔偿白银2800两  

突然在黄鸿钊的《西方列强与澳门的关系》发现一处非常有趣的记载：  


  英国人决定另辟蹊径，打开局面，企图借助于长期垄断对华贸易的葡萄牙人打入中国市场。17世纪初，葡萄牙人在远东的商业霸权已经衰落。他们的商船在远东屡次遭到荷兰舰队的的劫掠，也想联合英国人的力量以牵制荷兰人。1635年，英国东印度公司同果阿的葡萄牙总督达成协议，同意英商自由出入澳门从事贸易。同年12月12日，英王查理一世颁布训令，任命威德尔上尉为指挥官，率领6艘船舰前来中国。
  威德尔船队于1636年4月14日从伦敦启航，11月7日到达果阿，与果阿总督交涉前往澳门贸易问题。1637年1月17日，船队离开果阿，先后在伯特卡尔（Bhetkal）柯钦和亚齐建立商馆。6月27日，船队到达澳门以南的十字门外停泊。英国商船的到来使葡萄牙人感到为难，因为这时澳门与果阿、里斯本的贸易航线已被荷兰舰队所阻截，航行十分困难，澳门葡人只能维持长崎和马尼拉的贸易航线，而且同长崎的贸易也将因日本颁布锁国令而被迫停止，这样就只剩下马尼拉一处仍然保持密切的贸易关系，但贸易额每年仍达100万两。①如果任由英国人开辟中国市场，打破其对中国外贸的垄断，则葡人仅存的一点贸易利益也将丧失。因此，澳门葡人拒不不执行果阿总督的指示，不允许英国人分享澳门的贸易特权。葡人在中国官员面前极力底毁英国人，说他们就是荷兰人，企图前来捣乱，应于驱逐。葡人又从澳门派出巡逻艇在英船附近巡弋，阻止英国人进行贸易活动。  
  威德尔见到澳门贸易已无希望，便于7月底启碇前往广州。8月8日，英船到达虎门亚娘鞋（Anunghai）停泊，虎门炮台守军鸣炮示警。威德尔蓄意挑起事端，下令扯下圣佐治贸易旗，升起英国国王的军旗，摆出一副准备战斗的架势，随即指挥船队炮轰虎门炮台。攻上炮台后，英军扯下中国军旗，挂上英王旗帜，并拆下35门大炮，作为战利品搬到船上。广州当局派葡人诺雷蒂（Pallo Noretti）交涉，威德尔才把大炮归还，同时派出两名商人随同诺雷蒂前往广州。他们携带西班牙银币22000里尔，以及2小箱日本银币，作为购货之用。但英船却继续深入广州内河。这种侵犯中国主权的行为，激起广州当局的愤怒。9月10日，广东海防当局派出3艘战船冲向英国船队，发射火炮和火箭，迫使英船仓皇溜走。但威德尔对侵犯内河不仅毫无自责之意，反而更加变本加厉地滥施暴虐。19日，在虎门地区纵火烧毁了三艘中国帆船，焚毁一个市镇，抢夺30头猪。21日，又攻占并炸毁虎门亚娘鞋炮台，焚毁了大帆船一艘。当他在虎门犯下了如此罪行之后，也觉得不好同中国打交道，便将船队驶行澳门，请求葡人出面转圜。11月22日，英商在广州答应中国的要求，赔偿白银2800两。30日，威德尔向中国官员提交了一份保证书，对虎门事件表示歉意，并保证完成贸易后即行离去。据此，广州官员决定对其不予追究，令其贸易后尽快离境。12月29日，威德尔船队离开澳门，启程回国。中英之间充满火药味的第一次交往就此结束。

WHAT THE BRITISH ASK OF CHINA
            The Story of China   by  R. Van Bergen

[168] IN Great Britain only a small part of the people are engaged in agriculture. Food of all kinds, therefore, has to be bought from other countries. Great Britain, however, having rich mines of coal and iron, is a great manufacturing country, that is, what are called raw materials, such as cotton, wool, hides, etc., are here made up into cotton and woolen goods, shoes, etc. Great Britain thus obtains food and raw materials from other countries, and in return sends to foreign markets her manufactured articles. The British merchant, therefore, is always looking out for a new market, that is, for countries where the people will buy his goods. He thinks that better and cheaper goods are made in England than anywhere else, and he is satisfied if he is given the same opportunities to trade as other nations. England asks of China a free market for trade, or what is called "The Open Door."
When British ships first appeared in the Pacific Ocean, the Portuguese, Spaniards, and Dutch were all equally anxious to trade with the Asiatic people. Each nation wanted this trade for itself, and whenever two or more ships of different nations came together, there was sure to be a fight. The victors killed the crew of the other ship and plundered it. Sometimes they burned the vessel, or kept it, if they had men enough to sail it. Whenever a ship [169] was fortunate enough to get back to Europe with a cargo the owners made an enormous profit. Still, there was always the danger that their vessels might be burned or captured. A number of rich merchants formed a company for mutual protection, and asked the government to give them a charter. The government agreed, and the association was known as the East India Company. The company was permitted to make treaties with Indian princes; to build forts, and to hire soldiers; to take cannon on their ships, and to fight when it was necessary. In return, the company agreed to allow the government the use of its ships in case of war.
   In the year 1615 the East India Company sent some ships to Amoy to open an agency, or factory, as it was called at that time, and twelve years later an effort was made to open a market at Canton （广东）. In 1637 a fleet, under command of Captain Weddell  威德尔船队, was sent to China, and anchored off Macao (mah-cow 澳门). The captain sent some of his officers to Canton（明朝广州官员）. When they returned, they said so much of the wealth of that city that Weddell was anxious to take his ships there to trade. He sailed up the river as far as the forts, and sent a written request to the Chinese commandant, asking permission to go on to Canton. The commandant replied that he would answer in a week. But the Portuguese, who did not like to see the British secure a share of their trade, influenced the Chinese against them, and the commandant thought that it was best to drive them away. So he fired upon one of the ships' boats, which was returning to the vessel with drinking water for the sailors.
This made Weddell very angry, so he weighed anchor, took his ships up the river, anchored off the forts and the castle, and fired a broadside to such effect that in two or [170] three hours the Chinese had had enough. The British landed some men, and the Chinese soldiers ran away without trying to defend the castle. The sailors entered and hoisted the British flag. All the guns were taken from the forts and sent aboard, and the castle was set on fire. Two large junks, or trading vessels, were captured, and the captain of a smaller one was hired to take a letter to the Governor of Canton. In this letter Weddell complained of the action of the commandant. The governor told Weddell that if he would return the guns and the junks, he might have permission to trade. Weddell agreed, and, loading his ships with Chinese goods, he sailed away.
   [171] Although the English had obtained permission to trade at Canton, there was no love or friendship between them and the Chinese. Chinese merchants did not understand the English way of doing business, and the English did not try to learn the Chinese way. The East India Company cared only to make money, and did not always deal justly, as the following instance will show:
Among the merchants employed by the Company was a man named Flint, who had studied the Chinese language so that he could read and write it. In 1759 the Company's factory at Ningpo was destroyed and Flint was sent there to have it rebuilt. When he arrived at Ningpo, he found that the governor had forbidden the Chinese to have anything to do with foreigners. Seeing that he could do nothing there, Flint went on to Tientsin, and from there addressed a complaint to the Emperor. When the Emperor received it, he appointed a high officer to go with Flint back to Canton, and to make a report. When they arrived at Canton, Flint returned to the factory, where he was told that everything had been settled.
Flint's going to Tientsin had angered the governor, who would have been severely punished by the Emperor, if he had not bribed the officer with a large sum of money to make a false report. Flint, accordingly, was called to the governor's office, where he was taken prisoner, after he had been struck repeatedly. He was then sent to a place near Macao, where he was kept in jail for two years and a half. The poor man, who was innocent, and who had only tried to do his duty, wrote to the Company that he would be set free if $1,250 was paid to the governor. But the Company refused to pay this sum for his release.
[172] The Chinese, in their dealings with foreigners, act upon the following rule: "The Barbarians are like beasts, and can not be ruled on the same principles as the civilized Chinese. If anyone should try to control them by the great principles of reason, it would lead to nothing but confusion. The ancient emperors well understood this, and, therefore, ruled the barbarians by misrule; therefore, to rule the barbarians by misrule is the true and best way to rule them."
A recent English writer says: "The Chinese certainly saw but little of the better side of the strangers from the West, whether hailing from Europe or America. To them the foreigner was a man thinking of nothing but gain by trade, gain at any price; a coarse and vicious-tempered being, with no appreciation of Chinese philosophy, or literature, or history, and not even the most elementary acquaintance with Chinese etiquette."
An American author, who lived many years in China, speaking of the East India Company, says: "During that long time, even if they had only paid an interpreter in their agency, who, besides attending to his office duties, could have translated books on geography, astronomy, and other sciences into Chinese, the Chinese would have a far better opinion of the foreigners than now."
The Chinese complained constantly of the conduct of the sailors when ashore. In those days a voyage to China sometimes lasted more than a year. All that time the sailors were confined in the ship; they had to be up at all hours of the day or night, and in all sorts of weather, and their food [173] was very poor. Ship biscuits, or hard tack as it is called, with salt beef and pork, was all that they received. When these men, at the end of a voyage, were allowed to go ashore, they were often quarrelsome and hard to control. This caused many quarrels between the Chinese officers and the British.
The general law in China is: "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a life for a life." That is, if one person kills another, the man who committed the crime must die. Yet the laws in China are not cruel, for every sentence of death must be submitted to the Emperor, who alone can order an execution.
In 1784, the Lady Hughes, a British ship, at anchor near where the city of Hongkong now stands, fired a salute, and a Chinese was accidentally killed by a ball carelessly left in one of the guns. The Chinese officers demanded that the gunner should be surrendered to them, but this the British refused to do. Mr. Smith, the supercargo, or merchant, of the ship, shortly afterwards went ashore, when he was seized and put in prison. The Chinese refused to set him free unless the captain gave up the gunner. The gunner accordingly was sent into the city, where he was arrested at once, and Mr. Smith was released. The gunner was tried in a Chinese court, although he could not understand a word of the language, nor did the judge understand English. He was kept in jail six weeks, when the order arrived from the Emperor and the unfortunate man was strangled.
Another instance shows how Chinese officers evade the law. In 1807 a party of sailors were jeered at by a mob of Chinese at Canton; a scuffle followed, and one of the Chinese was killed by a blow from the fist of a sailor. The Lion, [174] a British man-of-war, being in port, the captain called a court. The man who struck the blow could not be found, but one of the sailors, named Edward Sheen, was placed under arrest. This satisfied the Chinese until the ship was going to sail. They then demanded that the man be given up to them, but the captain of the Lion  refused to surrender him. When the ship had sailed away, the Chinese officers sent a report to Peking. They said that the sailor had opened a window and accidentally dropped a stick upon the head of the deceased, and so killed him. They added that they had examined the sailor, and fined him twenty dollars to pay the funeral expenses. This shows that the Chinese sometimes have a lively imagination and little regard for the truth.
During all the years that the East India Company traded at Canton there were complaints on both sides, and constant misunderstandings. The charter expired in 1834, and was not renewed. After that British trade in China was to be managed by an officer appointed by the Crown, and Lord Napier was appointed chief superintendent.


           NATIVE SAILBOATS


WHAT THE BRITISH ASK OF CHINA
            The Story of China   by  R. Van Bergen

[168] IN Great Britain only a small part of the people are engaged in agriculture. Food of all kinds, therefore, has to be bought from other countries. Great Britain, however, having rich mines of coal and iron, is a great manufacturing country, that is, what are called raw materials, such as cotton, wool, hides, etc., are here made up into cotton and woolen goods, shoes, etc. Great Britain thus obtains food and raw materials from other countries, and in return sends to foreign markets her manufactured articles. The British merchant, therefore, is always looking out for a new market, that is, for countries where the people will buy his goods. He thinks that better and cheaper goods are made in England than anywhere else, and he is satisfied if he is given the same opportunities to trade as other nations. England asks of China a free market for trade, or what is called "The Open Door."
When British ships first appeared in the Pacific Ocean, the Portuguese, Spaniards, and Dutch were all equally anxious to trade with the Asiatic people. Each nation wanted this trade for itself, and whenever two or more ships of different nations came together, there was sure to be a fight. The victors killed the crew of the other ship and plundered it. Sometimes they burned the vessel, or kept it, if they had men enough to sail it. Whenever a ship [169] was fortunate enough to get back to Europe with a cargo the owners made an enormous profit. Still, there was always the danger that their vessels might be burned or captured. A number of rich merchants formed a company for mutual protection, and asked the government to give them a charter. The government agreed, and the association was known as the East India Company. The company was permitted to make treaties with Indian princes; to build forts, and to hire soldiers; to take cannon on their ships, and to fight when it was necessary. In return, the company agreed to allow the government the use of its ships in case of war.
   In the year 1615 the East India Company sent some ships to Amoy to open an agency, or factory, as it was called at that time, and twelve years later an effort was made to open a market at Canton （广东）. In 1637 a fleet, under command of Captain Weddell  威德尔船队, was sent to China, and anchored off Macao (mah-cow 澳门). The captain sent some of his officers to Canton（明朝广州官员）. When they returned, they said so much of the wealth of that city that Weddell was anxious to take his ships there to trade. He sailed up the river as far as the forts, and sent a written request to the Chinese commandant, asking permission to go on to Canton. The commandant replied that he would answer in a week. But the Portuguese, who did not like to see the British secure a share of their trade, influenced the Chinese against them, and the commandant thought that it was best to drive them away. So he fired upon one of the ships' boats, which was returning to the vessel with drinking water for the sailors.
This made Weddell very angry, so he weighed anchor, took his ships up the river, anchored off the forts and the castle, and fired a broadside to such effect that in two or [170] three hours the Chinese had had enough. The British landed some men, and the Chinese soldiers ran away without trying to defend the castle. The sailors entered and hoisted the British flag. All the guns were taken from the forts and sent aboard, and the castle was set on fire. Two large junks, or trading vessels, were captured, and the captain of a smaller one was hired to take a letter to the Governor of Canton. In this letter Weddell complained of the action of the commandant. The governor told Weddell that if he would return the guns and the junks, he might have permission to trade. Weddell agreed, and, loading his ships with Chinese goods, he sailed away.
   [171] Although the English had obtained permission to trade at Canton, there was no love or friendship between them and the Chinese. Chinese merchants did not understand the English way of doing business, and the English did not try to learn the Chinese way. The East India Company cared only to make money, and did not always deal justly, as the following instance will show:
Among the merchants employed by the Company was a man named Flint, who had studied the Chinese language so that he could read and write it. In 1759 the Company's factory at Ningpo was destroyed and Flint was sent there to have it rebuilt. When he arrived at Ningpo, he found that the governor had forbidden the Chinese to have anything to do with foreigners. Seeing that he could do nothing there, Flint went on to Tientsin, and from there addressed a complaint to the Emperor. When the Emperor received it, he appointed a high officer to go with Flint back to Canton, and to make a report. When they arrived at Canton, Flint returned to the factory, where he was told that everything had been settled.
Flint's going to Tientsin had angered the governor, who would have been severely punished by the Emperor, if he had not bribed the officer with a large sum of money to make a false report. Flint, accordingly, was called to the governor's office, where he was taken prisoner, after he had been struck repeatedly. He was then sent to a place near Macao, where he was kept in jail for two years and a half. The poor man, who was innocent, and who had only tried to do his duty, wrote to the Company that he would be set free if $1,250 was paid to the governor. But the Company refused to pay this sum for his release.
[172] The Chinese, in their dealings with foreigners, act upon the following rule: "The Barbarians are like beasts, and can not be ruled on the same principles as the civilized Chinese. If anyone should try to control them by the great principles of reason, it would lead to nothing but confusion. The ancient emperors well understood this, and, therefore, ruled the barbarians by misrule; therefore, to rule the barbarians by misrule is the true and best way to rule them."
A recent English writer says: "The Chinese certainly saw but little of the better side of the strangers from the West, whether hailing from Europe or America. To them the foreigner was a man thinking of nothing but gain by trade, gain at any price; a coarse and vicious-tempered being, with no appreciation of Chinese philosophy, or literature, or history, and not even the most elementary acquaintance with Chinese etiquette."
An American author, who lived many years in China, speaking of the East India Company, says: "During that long time, even if they had only paid an interpreter in their agency, who, besides attending to his office duties, could have translated books on geography, astronomy, and other sciences into Chinese, the Chinese would have a far better opinion of the foreigners than now."
The Chinese complained constantly of the conduct of the sailors when ashore. In those days a voyage to China sometimes lasted more than a year. All that time the sailors were confined in the ship; they had to be up at all hours of the day or night, and in all sorts of weather, and their food [173] was very poor. Ship biscuits, or hard tack as it is called, with salt beef and pork, was all that they received. When these men, at the end of a voyage, were allowed to go ashore, they were often quarrelsome and hard to control. This caused many quarrels between the Chinese officers and the British.
The general law in China is: "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a life for a life." That is, if one person kills another, the man who committed the crime must die. Yet the laws in China are not cruel, for every sentence of death must be submitted to the Emperor, who alone can order an execution.
In 1784, the Lady Hughes, a British ship, at anchor near where the city of Hongkong now stands, fired a salute, and a Chinese was accidentally killed by a ball carelessly left in one of the guns. The Chinese officers demanded that the gunner should be surrendered to them, but this the British refused to do. Mr. Smith, the supercargo, or merchant, of the ship, shortly afterwards went ashore, when he was seized and put in prison. The Chinese refused to set him free unless the captain gave up the gunner. The gunner accordingly was sent into the city, where he was arrested at once, and Mr. Smith was released. The gunner was tried in a Chinese court, although he could not understand a word of the language, nor did the judge understand English. He was kept in jail six weeks, when the order arrived from the Emperor and the unfortunate man was strangled.
Another instance shows how Chinese officers evade the law. In 1807 a party of sailors were jeered at by a mob of Chinese at Canton; a scuffle followed, and one of the Chinese was killed by a blow from the fist of a sailor. The Lion, [174] a British man-of-war, being in port, the captain called a court. The man who struck the blow could not be found, but one of the sailors, named Edward Sheen, was placed under arrest. This satisfied the Chinese until the ship was going to sail. They then demanded that the man be given up to them, but the captain of the Lion  refused to surrender him. When the ship had sailed away, the Chinese officers sent a report to Peking. They said that the sailor had opened a window and accidentally dropped a stick upon the head of the deceased, and so killed him. They added that they had examined the sailor, and fined him twenty dollars to pay the funeral expenses. This shows that the Chinese sometimes have a lively imagination and little regard for the truth.
During all the years that the East India Company traded at Canton there were complaints on both sides, and constant misunderstandings. The charter expired in 1834, and was not renewed. After that British trade in China was to be managed by an officer appointed by the Crown, and Lord Napier was appointed chief superintendent.


           NATIVE SAILBOATS

Q6 发表于 2010-1-27 23:29

这个，有没有翻译的？

广州虎门事件

好像不是打沉3战船，而是烧毁4民船～～～～这事件不知是真是假

《Britain and the China trade 1635-1842 》
                 By Patrick J. N. Tuck  这本书的
    “weddell at Canton，威德尔船长在广州”章节
  有1837年东印度公司在中国这个事件发展的整个过程 的详细记录

《Britain and the China trade》
摘一段话，反映当时的英国人认识到，明朝因为和葡萄牙等红毛生番打交道上百年，
已经非常有对付“海寇”的经验，如果用武力强迫中国人屈服，将会使他们商人的安全陷于不确定的境地，就放弃了后来使用武力叩开中国大门的努力：



《Britain and the China trade》
摘一段话，反映当时的英国人认识到，明朝因为和葡萄牙等红毛生番打交道上百年，
已经非常有对付“海寇”的经验，如果用武力强迫中国人屈服，将会使他们商人的安全陷于不确定的境地，就放弃了后来使用武力叩开中国大门的努力：

...英夷很嚣张嘛，抢30头猪

原来鸦片战争从明朝就可以开始了？

靠，鬼子进村了

Q6 发表于 2010-1-28 00:33


呵呵那时英国还算知趣
没有重蹈荷兰普特曼斯在料罗湾的覆辙~~

那个时候荷兰比英国牛叉。荷兰人都灰头土脸了，英国人又敢如何？如果英国人惹恼了明朝中央，英国人的下场只会比荷兰人惨。

大明把倭寇教训了一把，让日本老实了近三百年，把英夷教训了一把，让它们老实了两百年，可惜后来。。

henrychenwei 发表于 2010-1-28 21:21
;P可惜什么？可惜中国没赶上欧洲的第一第二次工业革命么？

    那段英文中的内容,楼上黄鸿钊的《西方列强与澳门的关系》记载的已经非常到位了. 不同的是,这个英国人并没有说他们后来捣乱并碰一鼻子灰的经过. 这是 3#英文对那件事的大致记录:
" 当时欧洲的国家,葡萄牙\西班牙\荷兰\英国都非常渴望和中国贸易,把中国的货物运回到欧洲以后,就可以发一大笔横财.但是,这些国家都是独自和中国人做生意的,如果他们碰到一块了,往往会大打出手,胜利者杀死对方的水手,凿沉他们的船,独自带着货物回到欧洲.富有的商人,通常会寻求本国政府的保护,武装他们的商船,建造堡垒\架上火炮\带上军人,就像军舰一样,东印度公司就是个例子.作为对政府的回报,如果政府要求海战,这些商人也有义务贡献船只,帮助政府的战争. 中国明朝的门户当时似乎只是有限的对葡萄牙人开放,这种门户开放政策还不适用于英国人. 1615年,东印度公司派船在厦门Amoy开了一个机构,十几年过去以后,他们又急切盼望在广州Canton打开一个更大的市场.
话说葡萄牙人也很不希望看到英国人在广州和明朝通商, 让英国人分享他们和中国做生意的垄断地位,所以故意从中作梗,在中国人面前讲尽英国人的坏话,并怂恿总兵向英国补给淡水的船开火 . Weddell船长非常生气,用武装的船向中国要塞开火还击,水兵上岸之后,把要塞里的中国士兵赶跑了,升上不列颠的国旗.拆了要塞里面的枪炮,另外还俘获了两艘大的贸易帆船,然后让其中一艘的船主向广州总督带书信,抱怨总兵的率先开火的行为. 广州总督回信说,只要英国人归还船炮,就可以和中国贸易了. 最后英国船满载着中国的货物,离开了. 尽管英国人获得了在广东贸易的许可,但是中国人仍然很不喜欢英国人,英国佬只知道钱,不懂得什么是买卖公平  "

这个，有没有翻译的？
寂静的狙击手 发表于 2010-1-27 23:49

    那段英文中的内容,楼上黄鸿钊的《西方列强与澳门的关系》记载的已经非常到位了. 不同的是,这个英国人并没有说他们后来捣乱并碰一鼻子灰的经过. 这是 3#英文对那件事的大致记录:
" 当时欧洲的国家,葡萄牙\西班牙\荷兰\英国都非常渴望和中国贸易,把中国的货物运回到欧洲以后,就可以发一大笔横财.但是,这些国家都是独自和中国人做生意的,如果他们碰到一块了,往往会大打出手,胜利者杀死对方的水手,凿沉他们的船,独自带着货物回到欧洲.富有的商人,通常会寻求本国政府的保护,武装他们的商船,建造堡垒\架上火炮\带上军人,就像军舰一样,东印度公司就是个例子.作为对政府的回报,如果政府要求海战,这些商人也有义务贡献船只,帮助政府的战争. 中国明朝的门户当时似乎只是有限的对葡萄牙人开放,这种门户开放政策还不适用于英国人. 1615年,东印度公司派船在厦门Amoy开了一个机构,十几年过去以后,他们又急切盼望在广州Canton打开一个更大的市场.
话说葡萄牙人也很不希望看到英国人在广州和明朝通商, 让英国人分享他们和中国做生意的垄断地位,所以故意从中作梗,在中国人面前讲尽英国人的坏话,并怂恿总兵向英国补给淡水的船开火 . Weddell船长非常生气,用武装的船向中国要塞开火还击,水兵上岸之后,把要塞里的中国士兵赶跑了,升上不列颠的国旗.拆了要塞里面的枪炮,另外还俘获了两艘大的贸易帆船,然后让其中一艘的船主向广州总督带书信,抱怨总兵的率先开火的行为. 广州总督回信说,只要英国人归还船炮,就可以和中国贸易了. 最后英国船满载着中国的货物,离开了. 尽管英国人获得了在广东贸易的许可,但是中国人仍然很不喜欢英国人,英国佬只知道钱,不懂得什么是买卖公平  "

明朝还是有能力和英夷大战一场的~

后来的满清嘛~{:3_90:}

wwww130 发表于 2010-1-28 22:51
让明朝被英国打败就能赶上工业革命？;funk

无比牛叉的我大清被明朝的手下败将狂扁也没能工业革命。还留下N多不平等条约枷锁住民国。

如果没有明末从皇帝到军士一致的强硬海防政策，
火枪、火炮、火箭在皇帝的支持下得到发展
中国人会不会成为第二批英籍新教徒登陆灭绝的印第安人，
今天来看，还很难得说

让明朝被英国打败就能赶上工业革命？

无比牛叉的我大清被明朝的手下败将狂扁也没能工业革命。还留 ...
酒精考研 发表于 2010-1-29 11:26

如果没有明末从皇帝到军士一致的强硬海防政策，
火枪、火炮、火箭在皇帝的支持下得到发展
中国人会不会成为第二批英籍新教徒登陆灭绝的印第安人，
今天来看，还很难得说

henrychenwei 发表于 2010-1-28 21:21

不过是几个英国商人就占领了明朝的炮台，几千个日本流寇都能横行中国沿海，真不知道怎么有脸吹牛

zhaozekun 发表于 2010-1-29 19:15

我感慨一下而已，怎么就叫做“有脸吹牛”了？

zhaozekun 发表于 2010-1-29 19:15


    列兵凶猛:L

henrychenwei 发表于 2010-1-29 20:06

明朝什么时候教训日本和英国了，都只是和一些商人强盗打了一下交道，也不知道哪里来的海防一说

    我查了以下相关明史，明朝末年，虽然饥荒不断，建州逆贼进逼京师，但在内忧外患之下，崇祯皇帝确实仍然不忘海防的建备，当年对英国人试探性的骚扰的强硬反击，完全是建立在有备而来的基础上的,并不是偶然。崇祯听进了大臣们的进言“但守海门，勿令登陆，则不为害”。 绝对不能让西洋海寇登陆，建立基地,否则,中国后来还真有可能向当时允许英国五月花号在北美登陆印第安人的那样的下场. 可见当时明朝的大臣和皇帝还是很有政治远见和策略的.
    中国古代史料记载的."广东沿海海寇舟大而有火器,兵船难进,俱至自福建",和英国人史料记载的1616年先在福建厦门设据点,然后逐渐向广东扩张的记录吻合.说明历史上还真有那么一回事.

我感慨一下而已，怎么就叫做“有脸吹牛”了？
henrychenwei 发表于 2010-1-29 20:06

    我查了以下相关明史，明朝末年，虽然饥荒不断，建州逆贼进逼京师，但在内忧外患之下，崇祯皇帝确实仍然不忘海防的建备，当年对英国人试探性的骚扰的强硬反击，完全是建立在有备而来的基础上的,并不是偶然。崇祯听进了大臣们的进言“但守海门，勿令登陆，则不为害”。 绝对不能让西洋海寇登陆，建立基地,否则,中国后来还真有可能向当时允许英国五月花号在北美登陆印第安人的那样的下场. 可见当时明朝的大臣和皇帝还是很有政治远见和策略的.
    中国古代史料记载的."广东沿海海寇舟大而有火器,兵船难进,俱至自福建",和英国人史料记载的1616年先在福建厦门设据点,然后逐渐向广东扩张的记录吻合.说明历史上还真有那么一回事.

上(崇祯皇帝)问实计安在? 祺曰: "海上官兵,肯出死力,有司练乡兵,筑城,要地多设火器,以战为守.此上策也"
   这种战术和后来英国东印度公司的武装商船遭遇的情形也吻合.

zhaozekun 发表于 2010-1-29 19:15

几个？商人？

不过嘿嘿，得看和谁比了~~

zhaozekun 发表于 2010-1-29 21:10


露梁海，你没听说过吗？

那个时候明代的海防情况如何？陆上士兵的装备和海上船队的装备如何？

料罗湾海战也解气，
规模不亚于鸦片战争，迫使荷兰人承认中国海上秩序而进贡求安。

“计生擒夷众一百一十八名，馘斩夷级二十颗，
焚夷夹版巨舰五只，夺夷夹版巨舰一只，击破夷贼小舟五十余只，夺盔甲刀剑罗经海图等物皆有籍存。
而前后铳死夷尸被夷拖去，未能割级者，累累难数，亦不敢叙。”

Q6 发表于 2010-1-29 23:11

谢谢，老兄的资料很有用，收下了。:handshake

《明實錄附錄 崇禎實錄》卷15，崇禎五年十一月，頁18，湯若望受命於京城為明廷造
砲，首先鑄成了二十門西洋大砲，其後又鑄造了較輕型的西洋大砲五百門。除中央及地方造砲
外，地方官員亦自資製造。如盧象昇(1600-1639)曾於崇禎十一年(1638)捐資鑄造多門紅夷鐵
砲，其中一門於1956 被發現於河北石家莊街上。另外，山西博物館亦有收藏兩門由盧捐資鑄
造的紅夷砲。；洪承疇(1593-1665) 亦曾於崇禎十二年(1639)自資製造一門紅夷大砲，現存於中國歷史博物館。

以下是崇祯主持大臣廷辩，最后拍板，言“火器火器始为中国之长技”，支持朝臣和洋人汤若望等人协助研制红夷炮的记录


以下是崇祯主持大臣廷辩，最后拍板，言“火器火器始为中国之长技”，支持朝臣和洋人汤若望等人协助研制红夷炮的记录

天启年间，孙承宗(1563-1638）编成了水师营，协同骑兵作战。一营共有战船九十六首，每船佛郎机炮四门，全营共有佛郎机炮三百八十四门 。
  郭汝瑰、邓泽宗等编写：《中国军事史 第四卷 兵法》，页262
==============================================
英国人遭遇的中国战船上的火炮，可能是佛郎机式的

有一种叫海底龙王炮的明代水雷，不知在同西洋人的实战中派上过用场没有




有一种叫海底龙王炮的明代水雷，不知在同西洋人的实战中派上过用场没有

zhaozekun 发表于 2010-1-29 21:10
朝鲜一战被您吃了吗？

有些人，只知道捧清而看不得明的好。

    被清朝纂改了的明史，往往将晚明写得软弱、黑暗、腐败，皇帝昏庸愚昧，
   从上到下一团糟，好像清朝取代明朝是历史的必然

如果拿日本人的史料说那段历史，会让人有卖私货的嫌疑，那么从英国人当时的感受来说，
多少会客观一些

我继续贴当时英国人的纪录，他们怎样感受到明朝即使到了四面楚歌的地步，也绝不允许红毛生番未经许可，踏上中国土地一步的强硬政策：

有些人，只知道捧清而看不得明的好。
超时空要塞 发表于 2010-1-31 20:43

    被清朝纂改了的明史，往往将晚明写得软弱、黑暗、腐败，皇帝昏庸愚昧，
   从上到下一团糟，好像清朝取代明朝是历史的必然

如果拿日本人的史料说那段历史，会让人有卖私货的嫌疑，那么从英国人当时的感受来说，
多少会客观一些

我继续贴当时英国人的纪录，他们怎样感受到明朝即使到了四面楚歌的地步，也绝不允许红毛生番未经许可，踏上中国土地一步的强硬政策：

是收到这样一封措辞强硬的信以后，英国人开始认识到明帝国的强硬的：
    如果想进入内河，必须得经过两广总督的许可；指派的下级官员须命令红毛生番在贸易完后立即返回公海，不得逗留；
最后还有一款严肃的警告： 如果你们这些红毛生番敢动我们土地上的一草一木的话，我保证我们的士兵会立刻送你们上西天。
我们的命令不会再说第二次，如果你们胆敢违犯的话，我们就不会原谅你们的罪过，保证这里就是你们全体水手的葬身之地。


是收到这样一封措辞强硬的信以后，英国人开始认识到明帝国的强硬的：
    如果想进入内河，必须得经过两广总督的许可；指派的下级官员须命令红毛生番在贸易完后立即返回公海，不得逗留；
最后还有一款严肃的警告： 如果你们这些红毛生番敢动我们土地上的一草一木的话，我保证我们的士兵会立刻送你们上西天。
我们的命令不会再说第二次，如果你们胆敢违犯的话，我们就不会原谅你们的罪过，保证这里就是你们全体水手的葬身之地。

威德尔上校收到信件后置之不理，向继续往内河行使开始他的探险，好了，这个时候被中国明朝的海防船只追上，给了他当头一棒。三只海防船用火炮和火箭向他的船警示性开火，火力极猛，吓得他惊惶地后退



威德尔上校收到信件后置之不理，向继续往内河行使开始他的探险，好了，这个时候被中国明朝的海防船只追上，给了他当头一棒。三只海防船用火炮和火箭向他的船警示性开火，火力极猛，吓得他惊惶地后退

威德尔上校应该很熟悉攻击他船只的中国战船的火力类型，他一直都很怀疑是葡萄牙人把战船借给了中国人，并在澳门的理事会指控葡萄牙人的罪行，但丝毫找不到葡萄牙人罪行的证据。其实他并不知道中国人早在一百多年前就俘获了葡萄牙佛郎机炮的技术，并在朝鲜和辽东的战争中也掌握了将佛郎机炮装配在战船上的技术


威德尔上校应该很熟悉攻击他船只的中国战船的火力类型，他一直都很怀疑是葡萄牙人把战船借给了中国人，并在澳门的理事会指控葡萄牙人的罪行，但丝毫找不到葡萄牙人罪行的证据。其实他并不知道中国人早在一百多年前就俘获了葡萄牙佛郎机炮的技术，并在朝鲜和辽东的战争中也掌握了将佛郎机炮装配在战船上的技术

回复 15# Q6

谢谢了，多多科普啊