请教自由枪机步枪？

应该不会有吧，纯自由枪机的话，这枪机要多重才顶得住自动步枪弹级的后坐啊。

偶不明白，坐等楼下科普

看枪炮世界上的介绍，自由枪机式不适合步枪使用
当时苏联许多著名的枪械设计专家之所以在突击步枪设计上输给卡拉什尼科夫，就是因为过于相信自由枪机后坐原理；他们的经验认为这种原理的结构特别简单，却没有想到自由枪机用在发射手枪弹的冲锋枪上是可行的，而用于发射中间威力步枪弹的突击步枪上就会使枪机很笨重，因而影响全枪机构的安排。

谢谢大家的指教，那么当年那些采用自由枪机原理的样枪的资料，不知哪位能够科普一下，谢谢！

天呐，还真的有，什帕金满塞！！！！

不知有具体资料吗？谢！

还有一个问题，自由枪机在冲锋枪上很常见，在步枪小口径化以后，步枪弹和手枪弹的动量相差已经不是那么离谱了。比如UZI发射派弹的初速是400米每秒左右，弹头8克左右，那么动量应该是3200克米每秒，而FAMAS步枪的初速大约是960米每秒，弹头重3.56克左右，那么动量应该是3417克米每秒左右，可以说相差无几。那么从技术上来讲，现在的步枪采用自由枪机原理的技术障碍在那里呢？是否除了考虑后座动量之外，还有其他很重要的原因使之不能采用自由枪机呢？
再请大家不吝指教，谢谢！

dongzhibing 发表于 2009-6-12 14:53

你错的太厉害。

动能是速度的平方再乘以质量除以二。
既：
400×400×8/2=640,000 既六十四十焦耳

960×960×3.56/2=1640,448 既一千六十四十焦耳

两者的动能差远了。

E=1/2mv^2.

其中M的单位是千克，我上面的计算用的是克，所以最后的答案要除以一千。

wlpz 发表于 2009-6-12 15:20
人家算得是动量，没问题

wlpz 发表于 2009-6-12 15:20
谢谢指教，但是如果我没错的话，自动武器后座是遵循动量守恒定律的？

我看错了。

抱歉。

不过后坐力这东西很难说，比如莫辛那甘截短了枪管之后的M44骑枪，这骑枪的子弹初速就比莫辛那甘低，动能自然也应该低了，可实际上，M44骑枪的后坐力反而比莫辛那甘大不少。

也就是说M4的后坐力应该比M16要大。

大概和枪支本身的重量有很大关系吧。

我没打过枪，不知道哪个的后坐力大，但是照直觉而言，在初速相差不大的情况下，应该是越轻的后座能量越大。我看《轻武器和机关炮》，记得好像说人能耐受的后座能量大概是15J？

我对后坐计算也不太熟，这种计算还是不简单的，粗略估计，由于步枪弹的膛压更高，燃气喷射出枪口的速度高，属于火箭的反冲原理，所以真正的后坐还是比冲锋枪高不少。整个枪械设计的后坐总量由于时间极短，应该是把动量和反冲一起算。
如果这么说还不好解释，那么我们可以从另一个角度来看：低初速和膛压的冲锋枪采用枪口制退器的不多，效果很一般，不用也可以。但是高初速和膛压的步枪采用枪口制退器效果就明显些。
参考公式：冲量＝力X时间。（步枪发射时的“力”很大，时间貌似也长些：火药多，燃烧较久）

谢谢斑竹！说得很细。
动量冲量俺还是有点概念的，呵呵。
不知哪位能提供5楼的枪型的资料？

谢谢斑竹！说得很细。
动量冲量俺还是有点概念的，呵呵。
不知哪位能提供5楼的枪型的资料？

什帕金直接把PPS43变成自动步枪了，这可怎么拿呀！长不说，手放哪里？

请教这是那个选型样枪吗？记得说当时军方为了取代冲锋枪，对枪支的长度央求很严的，AK也是冒着被取消参试资格的风险截短了枪管才符合长度要求的，要是像图中这样子，恐怕都不能获得参试资格吧？

是样枪，这不是直接被淘汰连第二轮都没进么。

我也没有很具体的资料啊，什帕金完成PPSh-41以后，先弄了一个改进版PPSh-42，然后1943-44年参加选型的时候就基于PPSh-41放大出了第一支样枪，发射7.62x41mm弹,这枪有5.4公斤重，光枪机就有1.23公斤。后来什帕金集中精力在44-45年继续改进出了PPSh-45以及什帕金信号枪，再往后他病死了，所以也就没有继续发展过他的步枪

你可以查这些名字：
Tokarev, Shpagin, Ivanov-Alexandrovich-Selenev, Korovin, Priluckov, Alexandrovich-Ivanov, Kuzmeshev, Sudaev's AS-44/OAS, Alexandrovich-Kashtanov's KB-2，Bulkin AB-46
全都是参加过选型的，有些设计师名字后面跟了参选编号。   其中AS-44和AB-46都很重要，因为他们与AK-46只有毫厘之差。  说不定历史有个稍微变化，卡拉舍尼科夫就可能永远只是个不出名的小设计师了

These models of the weapon Shpagin, however, and many submachine guns of other designer- gunsmiths, also remained only in the prototypes. Creation in 1943 of the 7.62-mm intermediate cartridge of model 1943 made it possible to approach the design of the new form of individual automatic weapons, automatics (in the West. the corresponding more to the class of automatic carbines or assault rifles). Together with other Soviet gunsmiths, G.S. Shpagin approached, in the beginning of 1944, the development of automatics under the intermediate cartridge. In the first design of his prototype of the new weapon, Shpagin used for the work of automatics, the principle of the return of blowback bolt, which was well recommended for submachine guns. As a whole, on the layout, to the methods of dismantling - assembling the Shpagin automatic Model 1944 was analogous to the PPSh-41: the same articulated coupling of the jacket/housing of the barrel, which appears simultaneously with this of the guiding mobile sybarrel (?) with the trigger assembly. Fast and well- (?) the trigger mechanism, which allowed single and continuous forms of fire . Recoil mechanism is also analogous to the PPSh-41. Feeding from the 30 round stick magazine. However, the attempt of Shpagin to use in the automaton, calculated under the intermediate cartridge, the old design concept of machine pistols with the inertia cutoff of lock failed not because of problems and the mechanisms of weapon, rather they corresponded to the considerably greater power of new cartridge. Payment for this the weight of weapon with the empty magazine became. 5,4 kg, with the weight of lock 1,23 kg. Together with the creation of the submachine guns during the war years, G.S. Shpagin was occupied by the design of signal flare pistols (signal pistols) of simplified construction, created with the use of the newest technologies at that time, of stamping and welding. As long ago as 1943, for the armament of the Red Army, the signal (illuminating) pistol Shpagin (OPSH-y), 25mm, was delivered. In the same year, its design was substantially modernized and the Red Army obtained the new 26 mm signal flare pistol Shpagin (SPSH-2). Signal flare pistols SPSH, are of amazingly simple and reliable design, and to this day, 54 years after adoption for the armament, still continue to faithfully perform their duty, moreover, not only in the Russian armed forces and the armies of other states of the members OF THE CIS, but also in the armies of the former Warsaw Pact, or many third world countries.

是样枪，这不是直接被淘汰连第二轮都没进么。

我也没有很具体的资料啊，什帕金完成PPSh-41以后，先弄了一个改进版PPSh-42，然后1943-44年参加选型的时候就基于PPSh-41放大出了第一支样枪，发射7.62x41mm弹,这枪有5.4公斤重，光枪机就有1.23公斤。后来什帕金集中精力在44-45年继续改进出了PPSh-45以及什帕金信号枪，再往后他病死了，所以也就没有继续发展过他的步枪

你可以查这些名字：
Tokarev, Shpagin, Ivanov-Alexandrovich-Selenev, Korovin, Priluckov, Alexandrovich-Ivanov, Kuzmeshev, Sudaev's AS-44/OAS, Alexandrovich-Kashtanov's KB-2，Bulkin AB-46
全都是参加过选型的，有些设计师名字后面跟了参选编号。   其中AS-44和AB-46都很重要，因为他们与AK-46只有毫厘之差。  说不定历史有个稍微变化，卡拉舍尼科夫就可能永远只是个不出名的小设计师了

These models of the weapon Shpagin, however, and many submachine guns of other designer- gunsmiths, also remained only in the prototypes. Creation in 1943 of the 7.62-mm intermediate cartridge of model 1943 made it possible to approach the design of the new form of individual automatic weapons, automatics (in the West. the corresponding more to the class of automatic carbines or assault rifles). Together with other Soviet gunsmiths, G.S. Shpagin approached, in the beginning of 1944, the development of automatics under the intermediate cartridge. In the first design of his prototype of the new weapon, Shpagin used for the work of automatics, the principle of the return of blowback bolt, which was well recommended for submachine guns. As a whole, on the layout, to the methods of dismantling - assembling the Shpagin automatic Model 1944 was analogous to the PPSh-41: the same articulated coupling of the jacket/housing of the barrel, which appears simultaneously with this of the guiding mobile sybarrel (?) with the trigger assembly. Fast and well- (?) the trigger mechanism, which allowed single and continuous forms of fire . Recoil mechanism is also analogous to the PPSh-41. Feeding from the 30 round stick magazine. However, the attempt of Shpagin to use in the automaton, calculated under the intermediate cartridge, the old design concept of machine pistols with the inertia cutoff of lock failed not because of problems and the mechanisms of weapon, rather they corresponded to the considerably greater power of new cartridge. Payment for this the weight of weapon with the empty magazine became. 5,4 kg, with the weight of lock 1,23 kg. Together with the creation of the submachine guns during the war years, G.S. Shpagin was occupied by the design of signal flare pistols (signal pistols) of simplified construction, created with the use of the newest technologies at that time, of stamping and welding. As long ago as 1943, for the armament of the Red Army, the signal (illuminating) pistol Shpagin (OPSH-y), 25mm, was delivered. In the same year, its design was substantially modernized and the Red Army obtained the new 26 mm signal flare pistol Shpagin (SPSH-2). Signal flare pistols SPSH, are of amazingly simple and reliable design, and to this day, 54 years after adoption for the armament, still continue to faithfully perform their duty, moreover, not only in the Russian armed forces and the armies of other states of the members OF THE CIS, but also in the armies of the former Warsaw Pact, or many third world countries.

18# baldo
谢谢！我再去找找看。

那个...恒定后座跟楼主说的自由枪机有关系吗？如果有的话是啥关系？小白路过

baoheyi 发表于 2009-6-13 17:41


没有什么关系，恒定后坐简单的说就是增长后作距离和时间，让更强壮的复进簧来缓慢的吸收所有的枪机后作能量，在这个过程中整枝枪也逐步的稳定的后坐。 可以解释为别的枪是撞回去，这个枪是推回去。  黄教授的网站上有介绍的。

理论上什么枪都能应用恒定后坐原理。  

说起来，把枪管长后作原理枪上的复进簧做的更强壮些，是不是就能得到恒定后坐的效果了。  带着整条枪管的枪机被粗壮的复进簧顶着缓慢的向后后作，可以获得很慢的后坐速度，然后开膛的时候膛内压力应该已经降得很低了吧，抽壳多方便，哈哈。 然后枪机继续相对快速的后作开锁，这个时候枪管已经开始缓慢复进了，枪机追着枪管复进推弹入膛，然后闭锁并在复进中击发。  WOW，完美的稳定连发射击平台啊，就是射速一定特别特别慢。   恩，对了，复进簧两部分组成，一部分顶在枪机后面，一部分套在枪管上。   前冲击发恒定长后坐，感觉更像一门炮

dongzhibing 发表于 2009-6-12 14:53
按动量计算的话，7.62x39 的枪机重量是1.23公斤，哪5.56的枪机重量也得有0.6公斤了

baldo 发表于 2009-6-13 20:44
需要加上滚柱枪管才能后座

busilou 发表于 2009-6-14 13:46


?为什么啊？  导轨不行么？或者简单点就是开槽或不开槽的圆管？   博夫斯好像没有用到滚柱啊？


我大致看了一下勃郎宁的专利，没有看到滚柱的说。  又看了看M11的分解图，好像也没找到滚柱的存在

baldo 发表于 2009-6-12 11:45
这玩意根本就是通用机枪啊 :victory:

那个年代还没有通用机枪的概念吧？

没这概念，不代表不能当轻机枪用。

没这概念，不代表不能当轻机枪用。