超级军网此图能否证明T34-85击毁了潘兴
来源：百度文库 编辑：超级军网 时间：2024/04/27 18:50:14
此图是介绍215车组的战果的,从残骸的情况看炮塔是殉暴后被揭盖了,虽然照片不清楚但是车体依稀能判断出是M26,不知道可否作为一个证据
此图是介绍215车组的战果的,从残骸的情况看炮塔是殉暴后被揭盖了,虽然照片不清楚但是车体依稀能判断出是M26,不知道可否作为一个证据
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不是潘兴的底盘吧
坦克装甲车以前讲过这个战例！:D
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M39装甲车，这种照片拿来当215的战果不是抽自己嘴巴么？:(
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而且这辆M39没有灼烧的痕迹，负重轮上的挂胶完好，怎么看都像是被遗弃的。
原帖由 Enclave 于 2009-2-11 14:55 发表
而且这辆M39没有灼烧的痕迹，负重轮上的挂胶完好，怎么看都像是被遗弃的。
好象是 有点道理`
原帖由 亲近海边 于 2009-2-11 15:31 发表
好象是 有点道理`
霉菌真有钱
完了，到现在没看到对TG有利的证据。看来这事越来越不靠谱了
想看韩战中的坦克战斗，推荐这本书。
似乎没有M26被我军坦克击毁的纪录，只有被步兵干掉的。
似乎没有M26被我军坦克击毁的纪录，只有被步兵干掉的。
志愿军装甲部队的损失和对坦克战的战果都不大，被美军算进步兵战果里也正常
原帖由 Enclave 于 2009-2-11 14:55 发表
而且这辆M39没有灼烧的痕迹，负重轮上的挂胶完好，怎么看都像是被遗弃的。
仔细看！侧面第一个舱口盖已经炸飞了，肯定是被打中了。
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原帖由 Enclave 于 2009-2-11 20:45 发表
那里是和JS-2M上的外工具箱一样的地方。这车车体装甲最厚的地方才13毫米，2战时期德国人用20高炮都可以干死它，如果挨了一发85坦克炮早成零件了。:D
http://worldwartwozone.com/photopost/data/500/medium/m ...
穿甲弹说不定可以打个对穿，不仔细看连弹孔都看不见，当然不会变成零件了。
原帖由 Enclave 于 2009-2-11 14:55 发表
而且这辆M39没有灼烧的痕迹，负重轮上的挂胶完好，怎么看都像是被遗弃的。
这个。。这么张彩色照片。。距离还这么近。。解析度还这么大。。如何判断为没有灼烧痕迹[:a9:] 。。灼烧是块黑吧。。
胶是能烧。。倒也没说被烧过的车胶就一定烧掉吧[:a9:]
不过我倒也倾向是丢下的。。。前面那挺机枪貌似还依稀可见呢[:a6:]
原帖由 sergeant_w2 于 2009-2-11 23:27 发表
穿甲弹说不定可以打个对穿，不仔细看连弹孔都看不见，当然不会变成零件了。
根据我方战史，215号车确认击毁的4辆“坦克”全部起火燃烧，这辆M39可能是我方战史中那辆唯一没有起火燃烧的“M-46”重型坦克：
http://news.xinhuanet.com/mil/2008-02/15/content_7609247.htm
天亮了，车长杨阿如发现坦克离射击阵地约100米，离３４６．６高地主峰约有2400米。通过坦克潜望镜，可以清楚地看到主峰上美军3辆M46重型坦克，正对着其它高地的志愿军阵地开炮。
。。。中略。。。
徐志强稍移炮塔，又是一连３发炮弹，敌坦克顿时被打哑了。但是奇怪，第三辆美军坦克中了三发炮弹，却没有起火。
"敌人是不是装死？"
"再来３发！"杨阿如下达命令。
３发炮弹又都命中美军第三辆坦克，大家这才放心。
挨了6发85弹居然还可以保持如此的完整。。。4号突击炮吃了2发85炮战斗室就直接被蹦掉了。。。;funk
同样是薄皮的2号坦克在1200米的距离上吃了一发T-34/76的76.2mm穿甲弹的效果
The battle is notable for its extensive use of armored personnel carriers in both these missions.
On the second night, the Chinese made a new push to take the hill, forcing the 7th Division to again reinforce. Parts of four companies defended Pork Chop under a storm of artillery fire from both sides. At dawn of July 8, the rain temporarily ended and the initial defenders were withdrawn. A fresh battalion, the 2nd Battalion of the 17th, counter-attacked and re-took the hill, setting up a night defensive perimeter.
On the second night, the Chinese made a new push to take the hill, forcing the 7th Division to again reinforce. Parts of four companies defended Pork Chop under a storm of artillery fire from both sides. At dawn of July 8, the rain temporarily ended and the initial defenders were withdrawn. A fresh battalion, the 2nd Battalion of the 17th, counter-attacked and re-took the hill, setting up a night defensive perimeter.
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突然想起来昨天在厕所翻杂志说，什么什么 T34车组 因为掉坑里了所以就地隐蔽，结果伏击 3辆 M26，难道又是忽悠？还说发动机声音从响到轻，欺骗敌人火力反击什么的~~~;P ;P
美国人的“详细”记录，他们在联合国揭露伊拉克“大规模杀伤性武器”的证据和记录详细不详细？有卫星有人证，你如何去反证？只有等他去打了以后你才知道被骗。这不是他们基因突变，是一向的忽有手法高明。你真以为美国人的伤亡记录损失记录就“全面”？很多都是家属发现没有名字以后，后加上去的，说句工作失误就行了。没有去找的，没有关心的亲属的，鬼知道有没有在上面。装备损失人没死的，那就更不知被隐瞒到哪个星球去了。这辆车，还有军博里缴获的那些个美国坦克，你给我找出美国损失记录看看。
对于美国这种一贯天顶星似的金刚不坏之身的“记录”，瞧瞧那些个装备系列图书，哪一个对上苏联同等时代装备不是１：２０、３０的损失比，早就看腻了这种吹牛把戏了，也就是欺负个人无法反证，而敌对国家宣传手段和记录系统起步晚，无法挑战的愚民手段而已，最好不要把它拿来作为判断志愿军的“证据”。一支装备极端落后还能打赢美国人的军队，一支可以靠歼敌报告判断敌人还有漏网残兵并证实的军队，靠胡编战果能做到？
对于美国这种一贯天顶星似的金刚不坏之身的“记录”，瞧瞧那些个装备系列图书，哪一个对上苏联同等时代装备不是１：２０、３０的损失比，早就看腻了这种吹牛把戏了，也就是欺负个人无法反证，而敌对国家宣传手段和记录系统起步晚，无法挑战的愚民手段而已，最好不要把它拿来作为判断志愿军的“证据”。一支装备极端落后还能打赢美国人的军队，一支可以靠歼敌报告判断敌人还有漏网残兵并证实的军队，靠胡编战果能做到？
对美国人损失非要照片和美国人记录才行，自己的老兵还在世呢。而美国人说自己损失多少就是多少，就不要照片证明了，看来有人认为美国人没有隐瞒和缩小自己损失的动机和能力。连美国人天顶星人似的记录都说有１４辆判刑被对方坦克打瘫过，请问那１４张照片在哪里。如果按照某些人没有照片就是忽有的标准，那美国人可以说２辆也可以，１辆也行，照片也可以说是一辆反复摆拍的，军博的那辆化妆冒充的，其实美国人只是不小心丢失过一辆，其实连丢都没丢过，军博那辆是土工山寨的，反正以美国为准。如果中国军人真想忽有您，军博那辆换换号码地点多拍几张，你就信了，战场这种你不可能重演核实的事情，越是做戏的“证据”越好造。
来张合影纪念下
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美方的战史经常是自己死了几个人，敌人遗尸几百甚至数千。也水得厉害。
原帖由 fire123 于 2009-2-12 10:56 发表
美国人的“详细”记录，他们在联合国揭露伊拉克“大规模杀伤性武器”的证据和记录详细不详细？有卫星有人证，你如何去反证？只有等他去打了以后你才知道被骗。这不是他们基因突变，是一向的忽有手法高明。你真以为美 ...
你认为人家说的不可信就直接拿证据来反驳！光在那里喊美国人说话不可信管个屁用！
Last battle for Pork Chop Hill: from July 6-11, 1953, the 17th and 32nd regiments of the 7th Infantry Division waged a deadly struggle against the Chinese
作者：McWilliams
At 10:25 p.m. on July 6, 1953, during a heavy monsoon rainstorm, a thunderous artillery and mortar barrage began falling all across the 7th Infantry Division's Main Line of Resistance (MLR). A reinforced battalion of more than 700 soldiers from the Chinese Communist Forces (CCF) 200th Regt., 67th Div., moved quietly toward Pork Chop Hill.
The small, one-company outpost, 500 yards north of the MLR, initially received no incoming rounds, but CCF batteries soon expanded their bombardment to the hill. On outpost duty facing the CCF battalion was A Co., 1st Bn., 17th Inf. Regt.
As the attack unfolded, A Company's Pvt. Angelo Palermo said, "It looked like ... a moving carpet of yelling, howling men--whistles and bugles blowing, their officers screaming like women driving their men uphill."
Located beneath the hill's crest in a bunker near the company command post (CP), Cpl. Dale W. Cain heard his radio suddenly come alive with traffic. From outguards manning listening posts in front of The Chop came reports of "enemy in large numbers." An ambush patrol from B Company called from beyond the listening posts, "We're coming in!"
In another bunker near the company CP, the sound of artillery slamming into the hills and valleys south of Pork Chop jolted Pvt. Robert E. Miller to sleepy confusion. "All hell's broken loose," he thought. He left his sleeping bunker and entered the covered trench heading toward his fighting position wondering what was going on. "Go get your rifle!" someone yelled.
The assault triggered five days of savage fighting. Before the battle ended, the 7th Division's 17th and 32nd Infantry regiments committed 12 additional companies, plus combat engineers and a weapons company machine gun platoon to hold Pork Chop. Integral to each company were 20 to 25 English-speaking South Korean soldiers.
Grinding Stalemate
Defenders counted nine enemy assaults the night of July 6-7. While suffering heavy casualties, A Company gave ground grudgingly. It fell back to an alternate CP on the hill's south slope and was forced to give up 35 of its 65 fighting positions, yet held in the face of overwhelming odds.
In spite of two reinforcing American companies, the next morning the enemy held the north, west and most of the east slopes, and the crest of the hill. The CCF's hold on communication trenches between the east and west sectors nearly cut the perimeter in half.
Defenders held most of the outpost's rear, including the covered main trench and Pork Chop's lifeline--the access road running from the 7th Division's rear, through the MLR, to the armored personnel carrier (APC) landing at the main trench rear entrance.
The first night's fighting set the pattern of shattering artillery and mortar fire, attack and counterattack, and grinding stalemate, with friendly and enemy-held bunkers intermingled. In the succeeding days, neither side was able to drive the other from the outpost.
Valiant Defense
In Pork Chop's final, hellish nightmare, American soldiers performed extraordinary feats of devotion to duty, courage and sacrifice.
A Company's soldiers saw Master Sgt. Howard C. Hovey fiercely fight his last battle the night of July 6-7. At age 42, the highly respected "old man," who, in WWII, participated in the liberation of Nazi death camps, expected to retire when he returned from Korea.
He died defending the main trench and company CP against enemy assaults. This bought time and lives for the CP's relocation to an alternate bunker on the outpost's south slope. He posthumously received the Distinguished Service Cross (DSC).
The swarming enemy isolated A Company's Pvt. Bob Miller, a South Korean soldier and several other members of Cpl. Charlie Brooks' squad, in their bunker. An enemy grenade tore off Miller's right leg below the knee and shattered his left. Another squad member, Paul Sanchez, saved his life with a tourniquet and bandages.
Late in the afternoon of July 7, still trapped and nearly out of ammo, Brooks faced an agonizing decision. "Can you hold on?" he asked Miller. They would carry Miller into the covered trench outside their bunker where he could sit against the wall, alone, with a box of grenades next to him, and see or hear approaching enemy. The rest would crawl through the firing aperture, make their way around the hill to the medics, and tell them Miller's location.
He did hold on through the next night. Every time he heard voices approaching, speaking Chinese, he threw a grenade in their direction. The voices ceased after each explosion.
On the morning of July 8, he heard a flame thrower behind him, around the corner toward the company CP. He yelled, "What the hell are you doing? Cut that damn thing off!" He breathed a sigh of relief when he heard an American voice say, "He's one of us." Miller soon left Pork Chop by APC, and later received the Silver Star.
Cpl. Robert Northcutt was a squad leader and machine gunner in G Co., 17th Regt., when it counterattacked into a hail of enemy fire at 3:40 p.m., July 8. Northcutt recalls, "I lost contact with my company, had two men killed and others wounded. We ran low on ammunition, and gathered weapons and ammunition from the dead."
Early on July 9, the 17th's K and I companies counterattacked, passing through the small defense perimeter set up on the hill's east shoulder by Northcutt and other G Company soldiers. An enemy sniper opened fire, stalling the assault. Northcutt responded.
His men saw him become the sniper's bait, fleetingly presenting himself as a target. The sniper gave himself away. Northcutt immediately charged, killing him with rapid-fired rounds from his pistol. This and other heroic acts prompted award of the DSC to Northcutt--another powerful example of Pork Chop's valiant defenders.
Eight more DSCs--three posthumous--and hundreds more decorations for valor were awarded to the men of Pork Chop Hill. Cpl. Dan D. Schoonover, A Co., 13th Eng. Combat Bn., and 1st Lt. Richard T. Shea, Jr., A Co., 17th Inf. Regt., received posthumous Medals of Honor.
Shea, a former enlisted man who graduated from West Point in 1952, entered the Army during WWII at age 17. He was a much-admired, record-setting captain of Army's track team, and could have pursued Olympic glory if he chose. He didn't, and on Pork Chop, as A Company's executive officer, he fought in every sector of the hill, leading numerous localized counterattacks those first two days.
A and B companies were ordered to withdraw July 8, replaced by counterattacking E and G companies. Covered by rifle fire from Lt. Col. "Rocky" Read, the 1st Battalion commander, Shea dashed along the access road to the east shoulder of Pork Chop. He was making contact with A Company's 2nd Platoon to bring them off the hill via APCs.
When he saw G Company decimated by intense fire, and another enemy battalion approaching the defensive perimeter, he gathered a group of G Company soldiers and launched another series of localized counterattacks. He was last seen in furious hand-to-hand fighting.
On Hallowed Ground
On orders issued at 11:45 a.m., July 11, the 7th Division abandoned the outpost by 7:20 p.m. Americans suffered 243 KIA, 916 WIA and at least nine POWs. South Koreans lost 15 KIA, 129 WIA and 17 MIA in the month of July, nearly all on Pork Chop. The Chinese sustained an estimated 6,050 casualties.
Ralph K. Kramer remembered the carnage years later. "I was fortunate I never had to kill anyone. But when I came off the hill, I was blood from top to bottom. I was soaked in human blood," the E Company medic said. Only 15 riflemen and two medics of that company did not become casualties.
Several factors accounted for U.S. casualties not being even higher. Body armor was one. Use of APCs also helped. APCs included the older, open top M-39, as well as newer, fully enclosed T-18s. The latter was invaluable in protecting wounded and safely transporting troops back and forth to The Chop. Finally, a record 115,000 rounds of artillery were fired in defending the outpost, keeping the enemy at bay.
In Korea's long-hostile DMZ, Pork Chop Hill now stands in silent tribute to hundreds from both sides who still sleep on its hallowed ground.
BILL McWILLIAMS, an Air Force Vietnam veteran, is author of the forthcoming On Hallowed Ground: The Last Battle for Pork Chop Hill (Naval Institute Press).
作者：McWilliams
At 10:25 p.m. on July 6, 1953, during a heavy monsoon rainstorm, a thunderous artillery and mortar barrage began falling all across the 7th Infantry Division's Main Line of Resistance (MLR). A reinforced battalion of more than 700 soldiers from the Chinese Communist Forces (CCF) 200th Regt., 67th Div., moved quietly toward Pork Chop Hill.
The small, one-company outpost, 500 yards north of the MLR, initially received no incoming rounds, but CCF batteries soon expanded their bombardment to the hill. On outpost duty facing the CCF battalion was A Co., 1st Bn., 17th Inf. Regt.
As the attack unfolded, A Company's Pvt. Angelo Palermo said, "It looked like ... a moving carpet of yelling, howling men--whistles and bugles blowing, their officers screaming like women driving their men uphill."
Located beneath the hill's crest in a bunker near the company command post (CP), Cpl. Dale W. Cain heard his radio suddenly come alive with traffic. From outguards manning listening posts in front of The Chop came reports of "enemy in large numbers." An ambush patrol from B Company called from beyond the listening posts, "We're coming in!"
In another bunker near the company CP, the sound of artillery slamming into the hills and valleys south of Pork Chop jolted Pvt. Robert E. Miller to sleepy confusion. "All hell's broken loose," he thought. He left his sleeping bunker and entered the covered trench heading toward his fighting position wondering what was going on. "Go get your rifle!" someone yelled.
The assault triggered five days of savage fighting. Before the battle ended, the 7th Division's 17th and 32nd Infantry regiments committed 12 additional companies, plus combat engineers and a weapons company machine gun platoon to hold Pork Chop. Integral to each company were 20 to 25 English-speaking South Korean soldiers.
Grinding Stalemate
Defenders counted nine enemy assaults the night of July 6-7. While suffering heavy casualties, A Company gave ground grudgingly. It fell back to an alternate CP on the hill's south slope and was forced to give up 35 of its 65 fighting positions, yet held in the face of overwhelming odds.
In spite of two reinforcing American companies, the next morning the enemy held the north, west and most of the east slopes, and the crest of the hill. The CCF's hold on communication trenches between the east and west sectors nearly cut the perimeter in half.
Defenders held most of the outpost's rear, including the covered main trench and Pork Chop's lifeline--the access road running from the 7th Division's rear, through the MLR, to the armored personnel carrier (APC) landing at the main trench rear entrance.
The first night's fighting set the pattern of shattering artillery and mortar fire, attack and counterattack, and grinding stalemate, with friendly and enemy-held bunkers intermingled. In the succeeding days, neither side was able to drive the other from the outpost.
Valiant Defense
In Pork Chop's final, hellish nightmare, American soldiers performed extraordinary feats of devotion to duty, courage and sacrifice.
A Company's soldiers saw Master Sgt. Howard C. Hovey fiercely fight his last battle the night of July 6-7. At age 42, the highly respected "old man," who, in WWII, participated in the liberation of Nazi death camps, expected to retire when he returned from Korea.
He died defending the main trench and company CP against enemy assaults. This bought time and lives for the CP's relocation to an alternate bunker on the outpost's south slope. He posthumously received the Distinguished Service Cross (DSC).
The swarming enemy isolated A Company's Pvt. Bob Miller, a South Korean soldier and several other members of Cpl. Charlie Brooks' squad, in their bunker. An enemy grenade tore off Miller's right leg below the knee and shattered his left. Another squad member, Paul Sanchez, saved his life with a tourniquet and bandages.
Late in the afternoon of July 7, still trapped and nearly out of ammo, Brooks faced an agonizing decision. "Can you hold on?" he asked Miller. They would carry Miller into the covered trench outside their bunker where he could sit against the wall, alone, with a box of grenades next to him, and see or hear approaching enemy. The rest would crawl through the firing aperture, make their way around the hill to the medics, and tell them Miller's location.
He did hold on through the next night. Every time he heard voices approaching, speaking Chinese, he threw a grenade in their direction. The voices ceased after each explosion.
On the morning of July 8, he heard a flame thrower behind him, around the corner toward the company CP. He yelled, "What the hell are you doing? Cut that damn thing off!" He breathed a sigh of relief when he heard an American voice say, "He's one of us." Miller soon left Pork Chop by APC, and later received the Silver Star.
Cpl. Robert Northcutt was a squad leader and machine gunner in G Co., 17th Regt., when it counterattacked into a hail of enemy fire at 3:40 p.m., July 8. Northcutt recalls, "I lost contact with my company, had two men killed and others wounded. We ran low on ammunition, and gathered weapons and ammunition from the dead."
Early on July 9, the 17th's K and I companies counterattacked, passing through the small defense perimeter set up on the hill's east shoulder by Northcutt and other G Company soldiers. An enemy sniper opened fire, stalling the assault. Northcutt responded.
His men saw him become the sniper's bait, fleetingly presenting himself as a target. The sniper gave himself away. Northcutt immediately charged, killing him with rapid-fired rounds from his pistol. This and other heroic acts prompted award of the DSC to Northcutt--another powerful example of Pork Chop's valiant defenders.
Eight more DSCs--three posthumous--and hundreds more decorations for valor were awarded to the men of Pork Chop Hill. Cpl. Dan D. Schoonover, A Co., 13th Eng. Combat Bn., and 1st Lt. Richard T. Shea, Jr., A Co., 17th Inf. Regt., received posthumous Medals of Honor.
Shea, a former enlisted man who graduated from West Point in 1952, entered the Army during WWII at age 17. He was a much-admired, record-setting captain of Army's track team, and could have pursued Olympic glory if he chose. He didn't, and on Pork Chop, as A Company's executive officer, he fought in every sector of the hill, leading numerous localized counterattacks those first two days.
A and B companies were ordered to withdraw July 8, replaced by counterattacking E and G companies. Covered by rifle fire from Lt. Col. "Rocky" Read, the 1st Battalion commander, Shea dashed along the access road to the east shoulder of Pork Chop. He was making contact with A Company's 2nd Platoon to bring them off the hill via APCs.
When he saw G Company decimated by intense fire, and another enemy battalion approaching the defensive perimeter, he gathered a group of G Company soldiers and launched another series of localized counterattacks. He was last seen in furious hand-to-hand fighting.
On Hallowed Ground
On orders issued at 11:45 a.m., July 11, the 7th Division abandoned the outpost by 7:20 p.m. Americans suffered 243 KIA, 916 WIA and at least nine POWs. South Koreans lost 15 KIA, 129 WIA and 17 MIA in the month of July, nearly all on Pork Chop. The Chinese sustained an estimated 6,050 casualties.
Ralph K. Kramer remembered the carnage years later. "I was fortunate I never had to kill anyone. But when I came off the hill, I was blood from top to bottom. I was soaked in human blood," the E Company medic said. Only 15 riflemen and two medics of that company did not become casualties.
Several factors accounted for U.S. casualties not being even higher. Body armor was one. Use of APCs also helped. APCs included the older, open top M-39, as well as newer, fully enclosed T-18s. The latter was invaluable in protecting wounded and safely transporting troops back and forth to The Chop. Finally, a record 115,000 rounds of artillery were fired in defending the outpost, keeping the enemy at bay.
In Korea's long-hostile DMZ, Pork Chop Hill now stands in silent tribute to hundreds from both sides who still sleep on its hallowed ground.
BILL McWILLIAMS, an Air Force Vietnam veteran, is author of the forthcoming On Hallowed Ground: The Last Battle for Pork Chop Hill (Naval Institute Press).
我觉得应当被击毁了
第4个负重轮的位置似乎已经没有了负重轮,
另外可以看到同一部位履带的中部锯齿暴露在外面,应当不是故障导致的
识别错误和宣传应当分开,
比如宣传说佛弥地被50军消灭了皇家重坦克连和百人队长坦克,实际上是克伦威尔坦克,也不是什么重坦克连
但是志愿军报的击毁数目和英军损失数量却是一致的
第4个负重轮的位置似乎已经没有了负重轮,
另外可以看到同一部位履带的中部锯齿暴露在外面,应当不是故障导致的
识别错误和宣传应当分开,
比如宣传说佛弥地被50军消灭了皇家重坦克连和百人队长坦克,实际上是克伦威尔坦克,也不是什么重坦克连
但是志愿军报的击毁数目和英军损失数量却是一致的
光看文字的话，俺觉得双方绝对是Enclave ID理直气壮。:D
不过仔细看了图片之后嘛。。。。:D
不过仔细看了图片之后嘛。。。。:D
老坦装有一篇文章叫《喋血石岘洞北山的日子》，是参加过这次战斗的我军坦克乘员写的，算是比较详细的我方回忆录，过几天回家翻翻。
原帖由 Enclave 于 2009-2-12 18:27 发表
老坦装有一篇文章叫《喋血石岘洞北山的日子》，是参加过这次战斗的我军坦克乘员写的，算是比较详细的我方回忆录，过几天回家翻翻。
那个拜读过，咱们打得相当艰苦，没有一点戏说、轻取的味道，（根据当事人所处的客观环境）算是比较不错的回忆录[:a14:]