挪威新潜艇案排除瑞典,将采用欧洲现成设计

来源:百度文库 编辑:超级军网 时间:2024/04/30 03:16:41


挪威近日做出决策,新潜艇要与北约国家同步运用与购置,会选择德国TKMS或法国DCNS的现成设计,瑞典近年向挪威强力推销的计画受到重挫。

早先瑞典曾大力推动泛北欧潜艇合作计画,不过并没有良好成效,于是瑞典自己先开始了本身的A26潜艇计画。

这是SAAB继被澳洲排除后,在潜艇市场上又受到的另一次打击。目前瑞典还瞄准波兰的潜艇汰换案。

挪威海军现役的潜艇是德国HDW制造的210型。挪威新潜艇会集成本国军工产业的系统(挪威康斯堡航太的潜艇作战系统向来是许多德制潜艇的装备)

http://www.defensenews.com/story ... operation/83671100/

Norway’s Sub-Snub Impacts Negatively On Nordic Defense Cooperation

Gerard O’Dwyer, Defense News 6:50 p.m. EDT April 28, 2016

HELSINKI — Norway’s decision to partner with NATO states in the design and delivery of new-generation submarines has exposed new cracks in longstanding pan-Nordic defense strengthening ambitions.

The solution reached by Norway’s Ministry of Defense (MoD) also represents a major blow to Swedish ambitions amid ongoing talks within the Nordic Defense Cooperation (NORDEFCO) sphere to add a stronger cross-border industrial collaborative dimension to the present military partnership.

Saab offered a customized version of the Swedish next-generation A-26 submarine to Norway. The Swedish defense group, which won a US$1 billion contract to deliver two new generation A-26-class subs to the Swedish Navy, hoped to partner with Norway in the long-term development of an export-driven A-26 type.

"Obviously, it is a disappointment for Sweden that Norway said no. That said, there are other markets for Saab-Kockums in producing submarines and finding global partner. But all things being equal, this is not good news for Sweden," said Stefan Cederberg, a Stockholm-based industry analyst with SEB Bank.

That Saab failed to make it onto Norway’s prospective submarine partners list is seen as the latest snub to Saab and Sweden’s defense industry.

Sweden was confident of selling the JAS Gripen to Norway in 2008, but Norway opted instead for the F-35 Lightning 11.

The lack of military-industrial cooperation between Nordic countries is being affected by the growing influence of the US and NATO in the region’s security and defense. This is happening against a backdrop of increased militarization by Russia in the High North and the Baltic Sea areas.

While pan-Nordic defense cooperation continues through NORDEFCO, NATO has now become the focal point for long-term defense and security planning among alliance member states Denmark and Norway, as well as unaligned states Finland and Sweden.

"There were realistic hopes that Sweden and Norway could develop a partnership connected to the development of the A-26 submarine. That door is now closed after Norway decided to favor a NATO-family solution. The decision does raise questions about Nordic cooperation," said Allan Widman, chairman of the Swedish parliament’s Committee on Defense.

Norway’s decision also raises questions over the capacity of NORDEFCO, the pan-Nordic military cooperation vehicle, to deliver long-term added-value, large-scale joint projects and contracts that advance political cohesion and the capturing of economic benefits for the Nordic defense industry as a whole.

Choosing the NATO-option saw Norway short-list Germany’s Thyssen Krupp and France’s Direction des Constructions Navales Services (DCNS) as possible suppliers of the Navy’s new submarine-class.

The MoD’s decision made no reference to Sweden or to Nordic cooperation. Norwegian defense minister, Ine Eriksen Søreide, said the solution reached would ensure that the Norwegian Navy would not alone get the submarine type it most needed based on an existing design, but that the project would contribute to "a more efficient armaments cooperation in NATO."

Distancing the submarine program for Sweden and Saab even further, Søreide said that Norway is also willing to cooperate with other NATO countries, including Poland and the Netherlands, who are in the process of acquiring new submarines.

The Norwegian Navy is due to retire its fleet of six Ula-class submarines after 2020. The subs, designed for Arctic conditions and operations, were bought in the 1990s.

Norway has been historically slow to contract out naval ship builds to yards in Sweden or Finland. The Navy’s 183 meter long logistics ship, the Maud, is under construction at the Daewoo Shipbuilding and Marine Engineering yard in South Korea.

In terms of joint military equipment production and procurement, the practical realization of a four-nation Nordic market has been problematic.

Successful examples of Nordic military-industrial cooperation are hard to find. Norway withdrew from the Archer mobile artillery joint venture with Sweden in 2007, claiming unspecified failures to meet operational requirements per the original contract.

The Standard Nordic Helicopter Program (SNHP) failed in its all-Nordic ambition when Denmark opted to select the AgustaWestland  EH101 helicopter as its preferred standard for troop-transport, support and rescue in 2001.

A joint decision by Sweden, Norway and Finland to pursue the SNHP and purchase the NH90 helicopter in 2001 culminated in all three countries experiencing higher than budgeted costs and significant delays in delivery of the aircraft.

The anticipated Sweden-led Nordic Viking submarine development project lost momentum in 2002-2003 when Finland decided to opt out as a member and Norway down-graded its participation to observer status. The project collapsed in 2004 when Denmark decided not to acquire more submarines and mothballed its existing sub fleet.

In recent years, the most notable development in Nordic defense-industrial cooperation was the US$ 309 million acquisition by Norway’s Kongsberg Group, in March 2016, of a 49.9 percent shareholding in the Finnish state owned Patria Oyj, Finland’s biggest producer of armored personnel vehicles, aircraft and weapons systems.

The acquisition elevated Kongsberg’s status as the second biggest Nordic defense industry group behind Saab. The Norwegian company’s offerings include anti-aircraft and missile systems.


挪威近日做出决策,新潜艇要与北约国家同步运用与购置,会选择德国TKMS或法国DCNS的现成设计,瑞典近年向挪威强力推销的计画受到重挫。

早先瑞典曾大力推动泛北欧潜艇合作计画,不过并没有良好成效,于是瑞典自己先开始了本身的A26潜艇计画。

这是SAAB继被澳洲排除后,在潜艇市场上又受到的另一次打击。目前瑞典还瞄准波兰的潜艇汰换案。

挪威海军现役的潜艇是德国HDW制造的210型。挪威新潜艇会集成本国军工产业的系统(挪威康斯堡航太的潜艇作战系统向来是许多德制潜艇的装备)

http://www.defensenews.com/story ... operation/83671100/

Norway’s Sub-Snub Impacts Negatively On Nordic Defense Cooperation

Gerard O’Dwyer, Defense News 6:50 p.m. EDT April 28, 2016

HELSINKI — Norway’s decision to partner with NATO states in the design and delivery of new-generation submarines has exposed new cracks in longstanding pan-Nordic defense strengthening ambitions.

The solution reached by Norway’s Ministry of Defense (MoD) also represents a major blow to Swedish ambitions amid ongoing talks within the Nordic Defense Cooperation (NORDEFCO) sphere to add a stronger cross-border industrial collaborative dimension to the present military partnership.

Saab offered a customized version of the Swedish next-generation A-26 submarine to Norway. The Swedish defense group, which won a US$1 billion contract to deliver two new generation A-26-class subs to the Swedish Navy, hoped to partner with Norway in the long-term development of an export-driven A-26 type.

"Obviously, it is a disappointment for Sweden that Norway said no. That said, there are other markets for Saab-Kockums in producing submarines and finding global partner. But all things being equal, this is not good news for Sweden," said Stefan Cederberg, a Stockholm-based industry analyst with SEB Bank.

That Saab failed to make it onto Norway’s prospective submarine partners list is seen as the latest snub to Saab and Sweden’s defense industry.

Sweden was confident of selling the JAS Gripen to Norway in 2008, but Norway opted instead for the F-35 Lightning 11.

The lack of military-industrial cooperation between Nordic countries is being affected by the growing influence of the US and NATO in the region’s security and defense. This is happening against a backdrop of increased militarization by Russia in the High North and the Baltic Sea areas.

While pan-Nordic defense cooperation continues through NORDEFCO, NATO has now become the focal point for long-term defense and security planning among alliance member states Denmark and Norway, as well as unaligned states Finland and Sweden.

"There were realistic hopes that Sweden and Norway could develop a partnership connected to the development of the A-26 submarine. That door is now closed after Norway decided to favor a NATO-family solution. The decision does raise questions about Nordic cooperation," said Allan Widman, chairman of the Swedish parliament’s Committee on Defense.

Norway’s decision also raises questions over the capacity of NORDEFCO, the pan-Nordic military cooperation vehicle, to deliver long-term added-value, large-scale joint projects and contracts that advance political cohesion and the capturing of economic benefits for the Nordic defense industry as a whole.

Choosing the NATO-option saw Norway short-list Germany’s Thyssen Krupp and France’s Direction des Constructions Navales Services (DCNS) as possible suppliers of the Navy’s new submarine-class.

The MoD’s decision made no reference to Sweden or to Nordic cooperation. Norwegian defense minister, Ine Eriksen Søreide, said the solution reached would ensure that the Norwegian Navy would not alone get the submarine type it most needed based on an existing design, but that the project would contribute to "a more efficient armaments cooperation in NATO."

Distancing the submarine program for Sweden and Saab even further, Søreide said that Norway is also willing to cooperate with other NATO countries, including Poland and the Netherlands, who are in the process of acquiring new submarines.

The Norwegian Navy is due to retire its fleet of six Ula-class submarines after 2020. The subs, designed for Arctic conditions and operations, were bought in the 1990s.

Norway has been historically slow to contract out naval ship builds to yards in Sweden or Finland. The Navy’s 183 meter long logistics ship, the Maud, is under construction at the Daewoo Shipbuilding and Marine Engineering yard in South Korea.

In terms of joint military equipment production and procurement, the practical realization of a four-nation Nordic market has been problematic.

Successful examples of Nordic military-industrial cooperation are hard to find. Norway withdrew from the Archer mobile artillery joint venture with Sweden in 2007, claiming unspecified failures to meet operational requirements per the original contract.

The Standard Nordic Helicopter Program (SNHP) failed in its all-Nordic ambition when Denmark opted to select the AgustaWestland  EH101 helicopter as its preferred standard for troop-transport, support and rescue in 2001.

A joint decision by Sweden, Norway and Finland to pursue the SNHP and purchase the NH90 helicopter in 2001 culminated in all three countries experiencing higher than budgeted costs and significant delays in delivery of the aircraft.

The anticipated Sweden-led Nordic Viking submarine development project lost momentum in 2002-2003 when Finland decided to opt out as a member and Norway down-graded its participation to observer status. The project collapsed in 2004 when Denmark decided not to acquire more submarines and mothballed its existing sub fleet.

In recent years, the most notable development in Nordic defense-industrial cooperation was the US$ 309 million acquisition by Norway’s Kongsberg Group, in March 2016, of a 49.9 percent shareholding in the Finnish state owned Patria Oyj, Finland’s biggest producer of armored personnel vehicles, aircraft and weapons systems.

The acquisition elevated Kongsberg’s status as the second biggest Nordic defense industry group behind Saab. The Norwegian company’s offerings include anti-aircraft and missile systems.
必然法国            
小国大型武器越来越难混,还是搞分系统和轻兵器吧
小国永远是小国,拿什么跟大国争?
来自: 手机APP客户端
美国和英国不知道会不会后悔放弃常规潜艇建造
韩国的模式和瑞典差不多,不知道能走多远
韩国的模式和瑞典差不多,不知道能走多远
可是韩国人口在欧洲算大国了
韩国的模式和瑞典差不多,不知道能走多远
韩国是授权或仿造他人的武器,瑞典是合作造自己的武器,自己能搞定斯特林TP62鱼雷反舰导弹,韩国差远了。
韩国的模式和瑞典差不多,不知道能走多远
韩国有什么资格能和瑞典这样搞出AIP的军工强国相比?
a2free 发表于 2016-4-29 12:24
韩国是授权或仿造他人的武器,瑞典是合作造自己的武器,自己能搞定斯特林TP62鱼雷反舰导弹,韩国差远了。
主要还是用货架产品的

抗中主力认怂党 发表于 2016-4-29 12:38
韩国有什么资格能和瑞典这样搞出AIP的军工强国相比?
都是靠货架产品


2016-4-29 13:21 上传

主要还是用货架产品的
区别是韩国买国际市场上的欧美货架产品回去自己组装,瑞典多用自己的货架产品组装,瑞典的缺点是自己采购的少经验不足。
瑞典的潜艇神话破灭了?
base_back 发表于 2016-4-29 10:46
必然法国
应该是德国吧
笑脸男人 发表于 2016-4-29 12:09
韩国的模式和瑞典差不多,不知道能走多远
南棒的工业化过程赶上了中国崛起,又比TG早半步。
因此等于为南棒提供了一个大市场,但随着TG发展越来越快,南棒需要作出选择,是做垫脚石还是做小兄弟
瑞典的潜艇神话破灭了?
自己还没有做出来A26就想叫挪威买,只有它做出来别人看看它的大功率斯特林怎么样才谈外售。
base_back 发表于 2016-4-29 10:46
必然法国
汉斯更有可能
区别是韩国买国际市场上的欧美货架产品回去自己组装,瑞典多用自己的货架产品组装,瑞典的缺点是自己采购 ...
瑞典能做的也不是特别多,国家太小了

韩国的模式和瑞典差不多,不知道能走多远
一个中等国家也想样样通,可得到的结果往往是样样松!

笑脸男人 发表于 2016-4-29 16:23
瑞典能做的也不是特别多,国家太小了


在小国中算很厉害的,光潜艇的斯特林和鱼雷就不是韩国这个体量能搞定的,爱立眼CV90BV206福博斯炮都是精品。
笑脸男人 发表于 2016-4-29 16:23
瑞典能做的也不是特别多,国家太小了


在小国中算很厉害的,光潜艇的斯特林和鱼雷就不是韩国这个体量能搞定的,爱立眼CV90BV206福博斯炮都是精品。
自己还没有做出来A26就想叫挪威买,只有它做出来别人看看它的大功率斯特林怎么样才谈外售。
瑞典的军工还不错的,天上飞的,地上跑的,水里游的。样样都有个把叫得响的产品。
自己还没有做出来A26就想叫挪威买,只有它做出来别人看看它的大功率斯特林怎么样才谈外售。
瑞典的斯特林技术装在苍龙上,很是坑啊,日本都不敢装艇投标澳大利亚。
瑞典的斯特林技术装在苍龙上,很是坑啊,日本都不敢装艇投标澳大利亚。
日本自己是买授权装自己艇上,土澳自己不要或瑞典的授权管的紧日本生产不了,然后拿锂电池跟土澳忽悠,法德跟风也要用锂电池忽悠土澳。
法国走狗屎运了
瑞典能做的也不是特别多,国家太小了

毕竟就几百万人口,相比人口更多的荷兰、比利时、葡萄牙、西班牙、波兰等国家还是强太多了。坦克,火炮,潜艇,战斗机,预警机、导弹......都能自己造
瑞典是军工强国,在强国并不算强,但是仍然在强国范畴。saab,基本也是海陆空全包(东西不算大,但是涉及海陆空),volvo还在搞点子系统(比如底盘之类的),爱立信在雷达上面还是比较有建树的,博福斯的火炮依然很抢手。
瑞典的斯特林技术装在苍龙上,很是坑啊,日本都不敢装艇投标澳大利亚。
瑞典不是坑日本人,而是日本人水平也就仿制水平,无法自行放大功率。同样是瑞典斯特林机方式,我国功率可以提升110%。

pheonix 发表于 2016-4-29 18:20
毕竟就几百万人口,相比人口更多的荷兰、比利时、葡萄牙、西班牙、波兰等国家还是强太多了。坦克,火炮 ...


比利时军工方面擅长轻武器及部分零部件,大型军工产品不行。西班牙同意大利及法国关系密切,基本算整合到一个体系中,单独拿出来说已经意义不大。荷兰同德国关系密切,很多项目都是两国一起搞的,在军工里面,荷兰比较出名的是荷兰信号(现在叫泰雷兹荷兰,泰雷兹的有源相控阵雷达研发主体之一),单独拿出来同西班牙比较一致。波兰是替西欧资本打工的。葡萄牙,就一旅游目的国。
pheonix 发表于 2016-4-29 18:20
毕竟就几百万人口,相比人口更多的荷兰、比利时、葡萄牙、西班牙、波兰等国家还是强太多了。坦克,火炮 ...


比利时军工方面擅长轻武器及部分零部件,大型军工产品不行。西班牙同意大利及法国关系密切,基本算整合到一个体系中,单独拿出来说已经意义不大。荷兰同德国关系密切,很多项目都是两国一起搞的,在军工里面,荷兰比较出名的是荷兰信号(现在叫泰雷兹荷兰,泰雷兹的有源相控阵雷达研发主体之一),单独拿出来同西班牙比较一致。波兰是替西欧资本打工的。葡萄牙,就一旅游目的国。


212,214,218SG随便选.



又或着是像乌拉级的210mod





212,214,218SG随便选.

Maquete-do-U214-da-TKMS.jpg (38.73 KB, 下载次数: 0)

下载附件 保存到相册

2016-4-29 19:50 上传


Maquete-do-U212-da-TKMS.jpg (40.47 KB, 下载次数: 0)

下载附件 保存到相册

2016-4-29 19:50 上传


1432281428_1.jpg (76.35 KB, 下载次数: 0)

下载附件 保存到相册

2016-4-29 19:50 上传


又或着是像乌拉级的210mod

1292023_-_main.jpg (76.68 KB, 下载次数: 0)

下载附件 保存到相册

2016-4-29 19:51 上传


468541776292238d2b76fabc306e5cc3.JPG (126.36 KB, 下载次数: 0)

下载附件 保存到相册

2016-4-29 20:07 上传



瑞典毕竟是小国。