关于日本代表联大发言涉及马关条约的问题,请CD版主或专 ...

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儿玉和夫同志 为我兔总参二部一局天津分局 花费了巨大代价派驻脚盆的鼹鼠
这次挺身而出引出马关条约这个引子 另我兔牢牢占据制高点 牺牲了前途甚至可能危及安全
总参领导何等心痛啊!
谨此 向战斗在境内外情报一线的同志致敬。

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

额 以上是发癔症脸滚键盘无节操打字效果。


目前网上和很多官方半官方媒体都说泥盆代表在联大辩论中以《马关条约》为依据,证明占我钓鱼岛的合法性。
但是都没有准确的说明日方是怎么讲的。我觉得应该有个比较权威的判断,来确定日方是否以此为基础,然后才好谈有针对性的回应。

以下是联合国官网儿玉和夫发言全文:
引自联合国官方网站联大辩论发言稿http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs//2012/ga11295.doc.htm

The representative of Japan, responding to the statement by China’s Minister for Foreign Affairs, said his Prime Minister had stated that various issues of international society must be solved by reason rather than by force.  Underscoring the importance of the rule of law, he said any attempt to realize an ideology or claim by the unilateral use of force or threat of force would be in violation of the spirit of the Charter.

The Senkaku Islands were clearly inherent to Japan, he said, recalling that in January 1895, a Cabinet-level decision had been made to incorporate them, while Formosa (Taiwan) and its associated islands had been ceded to Japan in line with the Treaty of Shimonoseki, signed in April that year.  The assertion that Japan had taken the islands from China could not logically stand, he said, adding that his country had conducted surveys of the islands since 1899, and they had shown no trace of having been inhabited by China or under Chinese control.

He said Japan had renounced its territorial claim over Formosa, and China had ceded the Pescadores Islands after the Sino-Japanese war, in accordance with article 2(b) of the San Francisco Peace Treaty, which made it clear that the Senkaku Islands were not included.  Only since the 1970s had the Government of China and the Taiwanese authorities begun making territorial assertions about them.



以我1.5级英语水平目测,好像他的意思不是说根据《马关条约》钓鱼岛割让给了日本,而是根据《马关条约》日本获得了福摩萨(ww)和附属岛屿,二战后日本归还了《马关条约》获得的Formosa (Taiwan)及附属岛屿。照他的意思应该是说,钓鱼岛不是通过马关条约获得的,因此中国谈战后秩序、开罗、波茨坦等等没有理由。

因为是官方语言,这里面的严谨性远远超出了一般的翻译要求,请CD的大牛们尽可能的给出一个较为精准的翻译稿。以正视听。





儿玉和夫同志 为我兔总参二部一局天津分局 花费了巨大代价派驻脚盆的鼹鼠
这次挺身而出引出马关条约这个引子 另我兔牢牢占据制高点 牺牲了前途甚至可能危及安全
总参领导何等心痛啊!
谨此 向战斗在境内外情报一线的同志致敬。

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

额 以上是发癔症脸滚键盘无节操打字效果。


目前网上和很多官方半官方媒体都说泥盆代表在联大辩论中以《马关条约》为依据,证明占我钓鱼岛的合法性。
但是都没有准确的说明日方是怎么讲的。我觉得应该有个比较权威的判断,来确定日方是否以此为基础,然后才好谈有针对性的回应。

以下是联合国官网儿玉和夫发言全文:
引自联合国官方网站联大辩论发言稿http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs//2012/ga11295.doc.htm

The representative of Japan, responding to the statement by China’s Minister for Foreign Affairs, said his Prime Minister had stated that various issues of international society must be solved by reason rather than by force.  Underscoring the importance of the rule of law, he said any attempt to realize an ideology or claim by the unilateral use of force or threat of force would be in violation of the spirit of the Charter.

The Senkaku Islands were clearly inherent to Japan, he said, recalling that in January 1895, a Cabinet-level decision had been made to incorporate them, while Formosa (Taiwan) and its associated islands had been ceded to Japan in line with the Treaty of Shimonoseki, signed in April that year.  The assertion that Japan had taken the islands from China could not logically stand, he said, adding that his country had conducted surveys of the islands since 1899, and they had shown no trace of having been inhabited by China or under Chinese control.

He said Japan had renounced its territorial claim over Formosa, and China had ceded the Pescadores Islands after the Sino-Japanese war, in accordance with article 2(b) of the San Francisco Peace Treaty, which made it clear that the Senkaku Islands were not included.  Only since the 1970s had the Government of China and the Taiwanese authorities begun making territorial assertions about them.



以我1.5级英语水平目测,好像他的意思不是说根据《马关条约》钓鱼岛割让给了日本,而是根据《马关条约》日本获得了福摩萨(ww)和附属岛屿,二战后日本归还了《马关条约》获得的Formosa (Taiwan)及附属岛屿。照他的意思应该是说,钓鱼岛不是通过马关条约获得的,因此中国谈战后秩序、开罗、波茨坦等等没有理由。

因为是官方语言,这里面的严谨性远远超出了一般的翻译要求,请CD的大牛们尽可能的给出一个较为精准的翻译稿。以正视听。



噗 CD的夜猫子都是和我一样战5渣的英语水平么
有没谁能搞个比较权威的翻译版本来
或者 应该到龙腾去问问?
对鬼子的斗争必须坚持下去。
本身鬼子盗取钓鱼岛的行为就是单非法的,我国有充分的证据表明钓鱼岛自古以来就是中国不可分割的一部分
鬼子的意思马关条约之外的就算他的领土了?
这种时间上的小伎俩有什么说服力,四月份签的协议,而甲午战争期间就据为己有(中日甲午战争是19世纪末日本侵略中国和朝鲜的战争。它以1894年7月25日(清光绪二十年,日本明治二十七年)丰岛海战的爆发为开端,到1895年4月17日《马关条约》签字结束),玩这种时间上的差异谁愿信服.
老一套。。说是1895年1月内阁会议批准钓鱼岛归日本。。没有证据显示钓鱼岛属于中国或置于中国管辖。
总归就是无主之地
tigersunny 发表于 2012-10-1 00:53
这种时间上的小伎俩有什么说服力,四月份签的协议,而甲午战争期间就据为己有(中日甲午战争是19世纪末日本侵略 ...
说的很对~!
所以保东大使说鬼子还抱着殖民心态不放,就是这个道理


我来翻译吧。第一段就是日本鬼子表达一下自己是善良的正义的意图和平解决争端的,没啥实质内容,就不翻了,仅翻译后两段。

The Senkaku Islands were clearly inherent to Japan, he said, recalling that in January 1895, a Cabinet-level decision had been made to incorporate them, while Formosa (Taiwan) and its associated islands had been ceded to Japan in line with the Treaty of Shimonoseki, signed in April that year.  The assertion that Japan had taken the islands from China could not logically stand, he said, adding that his country had conducted surveys of the islands since 1899, and they had shown no trace of having been inhabited by China or under Chinese control.

尖阁列岛(注:我钓鱼岛)很清楚地是日本所固有的,他说,1895年1月,日本做出了并入这些岛屿的内阁级别的决定,而福尔摩沙(台湾)及其附属岛屿由马关条约割让给日本,是签署于当年4月。声称日本从中国夺得这些岛屿(注:指钓鱼岛)在逻辑上是站不住脚的,他说,何况他的国家自1899年已经进行了诸多对于这些岛屿的调查,并没有发现任何中国人居住或控制的痕迹。

He said Japan had renounced its territorial claim over Formosa, and China had ceded the Pescadores Islands after the Sino-Japanese war, in accordance with article 2(b) of the San Francisco Peace Treaty, which made it clear that the Senkaku Islands were not included.  Only since the 1970s had the Government of China and the Taiwanese authorities begun making territorial assertions about them.

他说日本已经宣布放弃了它对福尔摩沙(注:我台湾)的领土要求,而且中国根据旧金山和平条约的2(b)条款已经割弃了澎湖列岛,清楚地表明尖阁列岛并不包含其中(此句英文原句略有含义不清之嫌)。仅仅在1970年代之后中国政府和台湾当局才开始宣称对它们(注:指钓鱼岛)拥有主权。


我来翻译吧。第一段就是日本鬼子表达一下自己是善良的正义的意图和平解决争端的,没啥实质内容,就不翻了,仅翻译后两段。

The Senkaku Islands were clearly inherent to Japan, he said, recalling that in January 1895, a Cabinet-level decision had been made to incorporate them, while Formosa (Taiwan) and its associated islands had been ceded to Japan in line with the Treaty of Shimonoseki, signed in April that year.  The assertion that Japan had taken the islands from China could not logically stand, he said, adding that his country had conducted surveys of the islands since 1899, and they had shown no trace of having been inhabited by China or under Chinese control.

尖阁列岛(注:我钓鱼岛)很清楚地是日本所固有的,他说,1895年1月,日本做出了并入这些岛屿的内阁级别的决定,而福尔摩沙(台湾)及其附属岛屿由马关条约割让给日本,是签署于当年4月。声称日本从中国夺得这些岛屿(注:指钓鱼岛)在逻辑上是站不住脚的,他说,何况他的国家自1899年已经进行了诸多对于这些岛屿的调查,并没有发现任何中国人居住或控制的痕迹。

He said Japan had renounced its territorial claim over Formosa, and China had ceded the Pescadores Islands after the Sino-Japanese war, in accordance with article 2(b) of the San Francisco Peace Treaty, which made it clear that the Senkaku Islands were not included.  Only since the 1970s had the Government of China and the Taiwanese authorities begun making territorial assertions about them.

他说日本已经宣布放弃了它对福尔摩沙(注:我台湾)的领土要求,而且中国根据旧金山和平条约的2(b)条款已经割弃了澎湖列岛,清楚地表明尖阁列岛并不包含其中(此句英文原句略有含义不清之嫌)。仅仅在1970年代之后中国政府和台湾当局才开始宣称对它们(注:指钓鱼岛)拥有主权。
惊蛰0123 发表于 2012-10-1 00:32
噗 CD的夜猫子都是和我一样战5渣的英语水平么
有没谁能搞个比较权威的翻译版本来
或者 应该到龙腾去问问 ...

见我的9楼


直译了下,请大家挑错

The Senkaku Islands were clearly inherent to Japan, he said, recalling that in January 1895, a Cabinet-level decision had been made to incorporate them, while Formosa (Taiwan) and its associated islands had been ceded to Japan in line with the Treaty of Shimonoseki, signed in April that year.  The assertion that Japan had taken the islands from China could not logically stand, he said, adding that his country had conducted surveys of the islands since 1899, and they had shown no trace of having been inhabited by China or under Chinese control.

他说:很明确钓鱼岛属日本固有领土,日本内阁在1895年一月做出回收钓鱼岛的决定,同年四月的马关条约,台湾及其附属岛屿割让给日本。他说,断言日本窃取中国岛屿是不符合逻辑的,加之他们国家(日本)从1899年开始对钓鱼岛进行的管理和调查,没有任何迹象表明为中国占领或控制。

He said Japan had renounced its territorial claim over Formosa, and China had ceded the Pescadores Islands after the Sino-Japanese war, in accordance with article 2(b) of the San Francisco Peace Treaty, which made it clear that the Senkaku Islands were not included.  Only since the 1970s had the Government of China and the Taiwanese authorities begun making territorial assertions about them.


他说,根据旧金山和平条约第二款,日本放弃台湾和澎湖列岛的领土主张,而很清楚的是钓鱼岛并不包括在内。只是在1970年代之后,中国政府和台湾当局开始宣示对钓鱼岛的主权。

直译了下,请大家挑错

The Senkaku Islands were clearly inherent to Japan, he said, recalling that in January 1895, a Cabinet-level decision had been made to incorporate them, while Formosa (Taiwan) and its associated islands had been ceded to Japan in line with the Treaty of Shimonoseki, signed in April that year.  The assertion that Japan had taken the islands from China could not logically stand, he said, adding that his country had conducted surveys of the islands since 1899, and they had shown no trace of having been inhabited by China or under Chinese control.

他说:很明确钓鱼岛属日本固有领土,日本内阁在1895年一月做出回收钓鱼岛的决定,同年四月的马关条约,台湾及其附属岛屿割让给日本。他说,断言日本窃取中国岛屿是不符合逻辑的,加之他们国家(日本)从1899年开始对钓鱼岛进行的管理和调查,没有任何迹象表明为中国占领或控制。

He said Japan had renounced its territorial claim over Formosa, and China had ceded the Pescadores Islands after the Sino-Japanese war, in accordance with article 2(b) of the San Francisco Peace Treaty, which made it clear that the Senkaku Islands were not included.  Only since the 1970s had the Government of China and the Taiwanese authorities begun making territorial assertions about them.


他说,根据旧金山和平条约第二款,日本放弃台湾和澎湖列岛的领土主张,而很清楚的是钓鱼岛并不包括在内。只是在1970年代之后,中国政府和台湾当局开始宣示对钓鱼岛的主权。
有限无垠 发表于 2012-10-1 01:10
见我的9楼
感谢9楼、11楼解惑。

看来网传所谓日本以马关条约为依据云云是以讹传讹了。我就想,这帮B也没这么弱智,以一个明显站不住脚的侵略性条约来做自己的法理依据。真要这样,简直就是挖坑埋自己嘛。
惊蛰0123 发表于 2012-10-1 01:20
感谢9楼、11楼解惑。

看来网传所谓日本以马关条约为依据云云是以讹传讹了。我就想,这帮B也没这么弱智 ...
拿旧金山条约说事。其实也够埋的了。。反正TG不承认这个条约。。
其实他具体说什么不太重要,重要的是不应该提及马关条约这四个字。他想表达因为马关条约并未涉及钓鱼岛所以钓鱼岛不是中国的,这话就算正确翻译过来也怎么听怎么别扭。很容易让人理解为:当初我抢劫你的时候你都没说这是你的,所以根本就不是你的。在这种针锋相对的时候说这种话,实在是比较弱智,要么说野田政府根本就没顾及过中国人民的感情,要么就是真傻。
从英文看,确实没有为《马关条约》招魂的言辞。是谁在讹传或者误导?让人误判形势是在损害自己。

日本口口声声没有控制的痕迹,为什么我们不拿出证据反驳,养那么多历史学家只会认哥窑么?
等,归还中华民国;其他日本以武力或贪欲所攫取之土地,亦务将日本驱逐出境;我三大盟国稔知朝鲜人民所受之奴隶待遇,决定在相当时期,使朝鲜自由与独立。

对中国的领土,上溯无极,全部应该归还

over
廪君蛮 发表于 2012-10-1 01:24
从英文看,确实没有为《马关条约》招魂的言辞。是谁在讹传或者误导?让人误判形势是在损害自己。

日本口 ...
历史学家都在忙着辩论真假曹操墓
关键就是驳斥日本无主之岛的论述。这么多历史资料早已证明,钓鱼岛有主了!
无聊郁闷 发表于 2012-10-1 01:24
其实他具体说什么不太重要,重要的是不应该提及马关条约这四个字。他想表达因为马关条约并未涉及钓鱼岛所以 ...

嗯,说的直白一点就是:“我在马关条约里抢的你的只是台湾岛、澎湖等等,钓鱼岛不是马关条约里抢的,我1894年7月开始打你,1895年一月抢了你钓鱼岛,谁让你傻,不知道把被抢的都写到条约里”

所以,小鬼子敢拿马关说事儿,是可忍孰不可忍!!


钓鱼岛是否是在马关条约中割让,中日是有冲突的。我们一直都是说钓鱼岛是附属台湾的,所以战后归还台湾,钓鱼岛自然也就归还。但鬼子认为钓鱼岛不是台湾的附属岛屿,所以鬼子认为战后已经把在《马关条约》里割让的台湾还你了,但是钓鱼岛还是它的。原文里第一句就是在说这个。确实拿了《马关条约》做依据了。

不是非得鬼子说“根据马关条约,钓鱼岛是我的”才叫拿《马关条约》做依据。

不知道LZ要正什么视听啊?



钓鱼岛是否是在马关条约中割让,中日是有冲突的。我们一直都是说钓鱼岛是附属台湾的,所以战后归还台湾,钓鱼岛自然也就归还。但鬼子认为钓鱼岛不是台湾的附属岛屿,所以鬼子认为战后已经把在《马关条约》里割让的台湾还你了,但是钓鱼岛还是它的。原文里第一句就是在说这个。确实拿了《马关条约》做依据了。

不是非得鬼子说“根据马关条约,钓鱼岛是我的”才叫拿《马关条约》做依据。

不知道LZ要正什么视听啊?

我国不承认这个不平等条约,是指其中的任何界定都无效,而不是指这些界定中否认的部分无效。
换句话说,日本是个傻b   不等于   日本干傻事的时候是傻b
惊蛰0123 发表于 2012-10-1 00:32
噗 CD的夜猫子都是和我一样战5渣的英语水平么
有没谁能搞个比较权威的翻译版本来
或者 应该到龙腾去问问 ...
我看了一下原文,其实不是日方以马关条约为理由,日方是说日本把钓鱼岛纳入国土早于马关条约(早三个月),所以战后废约,归还所占领土(台湾澎湖)的时候,不涉及钓鱼岛
惊蛰0123 发表于 2012-10-1 01:20
感谢9楼、11楼解惑。

看来网传所谓日本以马关条约为依据云云是以讹传讹了。我就想,这帮B也没这么弱智 ...
你不常看新闻吧
911国有化之后 918全国YX之前
CCAV里就提到1885年日本就勘探过钓鱼岛 而当时日本外务省仍然认为这是清帝国的领土 直到1894年大东沟海战北洋舰队龟缩威海卫  促使日本在1895年1月侵占钓鱼岛 1895年4月才出的马关条约 所以日方立场“这不是应该根据马关条约归还中国的领土!” 注意 这个论点本身就是拿马关条约说事 当然是“以马关条约为依据”  他们的逻辑就是 虽然基于同一场战争 但是我只承认马关条约所侵占的 其他的不算抢劫!  我不知道你所谓的以讹传讹是什么意思?
惊蛰0123 发表于 2012-9-30 12:20
感谢9楼、11楼解惑。

看来网传所谓日本以马关条约为依据云云是以讹传讹了。我就想,这帮B也没这么弱智 ...
敢提马关条约 就说明哥们欠抽
其实这家伙的意思是:1、因为泥轰马关条约签订前就已经把钓鱼岛占了,所以马关条约不包括钓鱼岛,也就不包含在归还中国的领土之列;2、霓虹认为钓鱼岛是无主地,所以就由内阁决议收了;3、在旧金山合约框架下的一系列操作后,米蒂把钓鱼岛“还给”了泥轰~~~~~~~~~面对这种神逻辑,大家也知道保东个为何大发雷霆了吧!!
岂有此理,他的意思就是,不是马关条约里抢的就不算抢的了。
楼主是细心之人,我也注意到了,可惜超大好多头脑简单的一听到马关条约就暴跳如雷,搞不清楚状况。
惊蛰0123 发表于 2012-10-1 00:32
噗 CD的夜猫子都是和我一样战5渣的英语水平么
有没谁能搞个比较权威的翻译版本来
或者 应该到龙腾去问问 ...
要是那样的话,日本人单方面宣布钓鱼岛为日本所有就更站不住脚了。打个比方,日本现在还有很多无人岛,我们宣布是我们的,你说行吗?
呵呵,日本再提马关条约,不管怎么说的,都是戳到中国痛处了。
琉球群岛都不是它的,还想钓鱼岛?
楼主这贴很有意思。楼主是个认真的人
狗日的说什么不重要。重要是他说钓鱼岛是日本的。他就该死。
兰州妖言惑众。
PS楼主,才1.5级的英语水平。我好歹刚过2级
血与沙 发表于 2012-10-1 06:46
你不常看新闻吧
911国有化之后 918全国YX之前
CCAV里就提到1885年日本就勘探过钓鱼岛 而当时日本外务省 ...
你说得对,日本本身的行为确是把马关条约作为证据在使用,该打!
搬出马关条约就是个双刃剑,但是从目前来看,局势还不明朗,到是给我们一个好藉口进行反击。
无聊郁闷 发表于 2012-10-1 01:24
其实他具体说什么不太重要,重要的是不应该提及马关条约这四个字。他想表达因为马关条约并未涉及钓鱼岛所以 ...
我同意这种说法。

我觉得按照一般情况日本方面只能先嘴硬说“钓鱼岛不在开罗宣言和波茨坦公告所规定应归还的日占岛屿范畴内”,只有在中国方面摆出马关条约、说鬼子通过不平等条约强占中国领土的情况下,它才好诡辩说钓鱼岛问题不在马关条约内。

现在的情况是日本在中国之前主动提马关条约,一方面出牌的策略有问题(一上来就把自己以为的大招使了),更重要的是这纯粹是找抽行为。

我觉得我们的反驳非常好,没有去和它纠缠马关条约的条款和钓鱼岛的地理划分啥的,直接说它殖民心态依然如故、军国主义复活等等,真正抓住了问题的实质——你一个战败国,在联大这种场合主动提之前自己侵略别人强迫签订的不平等条约,而且不是用一种道歉的姿态,这在外交场合是非常幼稚而欠扁的行为。

真要从细节上辩也无妨,即使马关条约没有明确规定日本侵占钓鱼岛吧,开罗宣言说要归还的领土可不是只有通过马关条约侵占的那部分。鬼子这逻辑真是神了,典型的妄图用局部代替全局的诡辩。

对战后日本的领土,开罗宣言和波茨坦公告明确规定:除了本土四岛之外,其余周边岛屿是否属于日本,应该由几大国讨论通过,中国就是那几大国之一。
还是感觉国人没自信,老纠结这种细节。
我相信日媒的报道也不会把中国人的发言详细报道出来的。
又是个搅浑水的,还在这里分析马关条约,真有研究精神啊!!! 小日本提这个条约本身就是对中国人民莫大的侮辱,还分析个毛。以后靠飞机大炮说话吧