超级军网东线带消音管的MP40, 这是德军的突击队吗
来源：百度文库 编辑：超级军网 时间：2024/04/28 20:52:36
借用CD sduce 的德军34的图片, 谢谢. 在图片中见到一张34/85的部队, 装束是苏军的, 但用的枪是MP40 , 还带消音管的, 难到这是德军的伪装突击队? 还是苏军的侦察兵呢? 焊丝在阿登时曾经伪装成老美MP , 袭扰老美后方, 造成很大的麻烦, 老美最后规定是对焊丝的伪装突击队,格杀不论, 因为他们穿着对方的服装, 不能做为POW 处理. 在焊丝打的最热闹的东线, 焊丝肯定也曾这么干过吧
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个人看法：这是苏军在展示战利品，因为画面中的人物有几个明显是中亚人种。
个人看法：这是苏军在展示战利品，因为画面中的人物有几个明显是中亚人种。
我感觉也是苏军
因为如果是德军讲解自己的武器没必要在这种环境
感觉是苏军讲解遇到的这种枪械
因为如果是德军讲解自己的武器没必要在这种环境
感觉是苏军讲解遇到的这种枪械
最左边只照到半个身子的哪个，典型的毛子。
英文资料，有兴趣的自己翻译吧
Sound Suppressor for the MP40
The mp38, 40 and 41 made use of the "Blowback with advanced primer ignition (API)" system, as a consequence of which, that complete sound suppression would not be possible due to a significant portion of the blast existing the area that the 9mm round was chambered. In addition to the standard 9mm Parabellum round travels faster than 1080 feet per second.
Note: "Blowback with advanced primer ignition (API)" system implies that the round is detonated from a blow-back operated bolt/recoil system, and that the ignition of the primer at the base of the 9mm round is ignited a fraction of a second BEFORE the round is completely seated in the chamber of the barrel.
Still the Heeres Waffenamtes instructed the following firms to develop a sound suppressor.:
1) Arado Flugzeugwerke GmbH, Werk Brandenburg/Havel, code: hkx
2) Schneider, Adam, AG, Maschinenfabrik,Berlin N 65, Fennstrasse 31 aod
On the 17th of February 1943 both companies presented their samples to the officials of the Heeres Waffenamt
Meeting notes Heeres Waffenamt
he picture on the right shows a letter from Major Ley of the Heeres Waffenamt send to Major Heilmeyer.
It states the following:
Major Ley Berlin, 13th. of February 1943
Wa Pruf J3 - 0901 App. 112
Mr. Major Heilmeyer
Wa Staff/Command group
Subject: Telephonic meeting Major Heilmeyer - Major Ley on 13.2.1943
Regards: Sound suppressor for MP.
At this moment two samples have been developed by the company of A r a d o, Brandenburg and S c h n e i d e r - Opel, Berlin, and were presented on the 17.2 in Dahlem, Kronprinzenalle 121.
Both systems are working according to the chamber system. Contradictory to the Russian System with the rubber baffles this system has the disadvantage that the soundlevel remains a little higher. The advantage however is that the accuracy is higher.
Sound suppressor with rubber baffles for MP's have so far not lead to any useful results.
In order to disguise the project the sound suppressors were called "Haube" (Hood). In total 4 different sound suppressor were developed for the MP40:
L 41
L 42
L 43
L 41 (new version)
The newer version of the L 41 was made by Arado. I assume that the earlier L41 also was made by Arado. The L 41 had a cylindrical shape and was screwed on the muzzle. It had a diameter of 43 mm, a length of 295 mm and weight was about 0,7 kg.
The L 42 and L 43 were developed by Schneider. These were also cylindrical in shape, had a diameter of 45 mm, a length 350 mm and weighted about 0,6 kg.
Both on the 17th of December 1944 and the 31st of December 1944, firing test were done at Kummersdorf by the Ballistic and Ammunition department of the Heeres-Waffenamtes.
The first test of the 17th of december 1944 was done to check if the firing with a sound suppressor lead to the same result as firing the mp40 without sound suppressor. The result was that the L 43 (which had an opening of 11 millimeter) did not show any difference. The L41 however only produced mis-firings. The problem was that the opening was too narrow.
The second test of the 31st of December 1944 came to a more disturbing conclusion. The L 41 was adjusted to an 11 millimeter opening. This was the new version. Now the results were similar to firing a mp40 without sound suppressor. The problem was the connection to the muzzle. The thread on the end of the MP40 muzzle was originally designed for a blank firing adaptor (which was never used by the way) which was a smaller and lighter weight device. A larger and longer device like a sound suppressor would necessitate having a longer thread contact surface (than that provided with the muzzle threads at the end of the MP40 barrel) to provide to fully functional, robust and safe mounting of a suppressor. Failing to provide for a larger thread area for mounting the suppressor would lead to mis-alignment of the suppressor and then when the bullet would leave the muzzle it would hit the baffles and destroy the suppressor and possibly insure the shooter or those around him from the suppressor being blown apart.
In addition, both suppressor designs had to use special ammunition, the so called "Nähpatrone". This ammo had heavier bullet (9 grams against the standard 8 gram) and a reduced muzzle velocity (below 320 m/s, which was standard) in order to avoid the supersonic crack which would be anything (a bullet) traveling faster than 1080 feet per second.
It's difficult to imagine that these sounds suppressors would really "suppress" all sound. A more logical conclusion is that they were used to muffle the sound sufficiently to confuse the enemy, so that the shooter could not be localized. Though keep in mind, that the British SAS and the U.S. OSS had developed relatively successful suppressor designs that had already fallen into German hands when they were captured from partisans or commandos so supplied. (Note the Suppressed STEN)
Meeting notes Heeres Waffenamt
Sound Suppressor for the MP40
The mp38, 40 and 41 made use of the "Blowback with advanced primer ignition (API)" system, as a consequence of which, that complete sound suppression would not be possible due to a significant portion of the blast existing the area that the 9mm round was chambered. In addition to the standard 9mm Parabellum round travels faster than 1080 feet per second.
Note: "Blowback with advanced primer ignition (API)" system implies that the round is detonated from a blow-back operated bolt/recoil system, and that the ignition of the primer at the base of the 9mm round is ignited a fraction of a second BEFORE the round is completely seated in the chamber of the barrel.
Still the Heeres Waffenamtes instructed the following firms to develop a sound suppressor.:
1) Arado Flugzeugwerke GmbH, Werk Brandenburg/Havel, code: hkx
2) Schneider, Adam, AG, Maschinenfabrik,Berlin N 65, Fennstrasse 31 aod
On the 17th of February 1943 both companies presented their samples to the officials of the Heeres Waffenamt
Meeting notes Heeres Waffenamt
he picture on the right shows a letter from Major Ley of the Heeres Waffenamt send to Major Heilmeyer.
It states the following:
Major Ley Berlin, 13th. of February 1943
Wa Pruf J3 - 0901 App. 112
Mr. Major Heilmeyer
Wa Staff/Command group
Subject: Telephonic meeting Major Heilmeyer - Major Ley on 13.2.1943
Regards: Sound suppressor for MP.
At this moment two samples have been developed by the company of A r a d o, Brandenburg and S c h n e i d e r - Opel, Berlin, and were presented on the 17.2 in Dahlem, Kronprinzenalle 121.
Both systems are working according to the chamber system. Contradictory to the Russian System with the rubber baffles this system has the disadvantage that the soundlevel remains a little higher. The advantage however is that the accuracy is higher.
Sound suppressor with rubber baffles for MP's have so far not lead to any useful results.
In order to disguise the project the sound suppressors were called "Haube" (Hood). In total 4 different sound suppressor were developed for the MP40:
L 41
L 42
L 43
L 41 (new version)
The newer version of the L 41 was made by Arado. I assume that the earlier L41 also was made by Arado. The L 41 had a cylindrical shape and was screwed on the muzzle. It had a diameter of 43 mm, a length of 295 mm and weight was about 0,7 kg.
The L 42 and L 43 were developed by Schneider. These were also cylindrical in shape, had a diameter of 45 mm, a length 350 mm and weighted about 0,6 kg.
Both on the 17th of December 1944 and the 31st of December 1944, firing test were done at Kummersdorf by the Ballistic and Ammunition department of the Heeres-Waffenamtes.
The first test of the 17th of december 1944 was done to check if the firing with a sound suppressor lead to the same result as firing the mp40 without sound suppressor. The result was that the L 43 (which had an opening of 11 millimeter) did not show any difference. The L41 however only produced mis-firings. The problem was that the opening was too narrow.
The second test of the 31st of December 1944 came to a more disturbing conclusion. The L 41 was adjusted to an 11 millimeter opening. This was the new version. Now the results were similar to firing a mp40 without sound suppressor. The problem was the connection to the muzzle. The thread on the end of the MP40 muzzle was originally designed for a blank firing adaptor (which was never used by the way) which was a smaller and lighter weight device. A larger and longer device like a sound suppressor would necessitate having a longer thread contact surface (than that provided with the muzzle threads at the end of the MP40 barrel) to provide to fully functional, robust and safe mounting of a suppressor. Failing to provide for a larger thread area for mounting the suppressor would lead to mis-alignment of the suppressor and then when the bullet would leave the muzzle it would hit the baffles and destroy the suppressor and possibly insure the shooter or those around him from the suppressor being blown apart.
In addition, both suppressor designs had to use special ammunition, the so called "Nähpatrone". This ammo had heavier bullet (9 grams against the standard 8 gram) and a reduced muzzle velocity (below 320 m/s, which was standard) in order to avoid the supersonic crack which would be anything (a bullet) traveling faster than 1080 feet per second.
It's difficult to imagine that these sounds suppressors would really "suppress" all sound. A more logical conclusion is that they were used to muffle the sound sufficiently to confuse the enemy, so that the shooter could not be localized. Though keep in mind, that the British SAS and the U.S. OSS had developed relatively successful suppressor designs that had already fallen into German hands when they were captured from partisans or commandos so supplied. (Note the Suppressed STEN)
Meeting notes Heeres Waffenamt
布列斯特要塞里德国人不就这么干了
伦敦上空的鹰德国人也这么干了
嗯，坦克大决战里貌似也有
伦敦上空的鹰德国人也这么干了
嗯，坦克大决战里貌似也有
有两个人佩戴的手枪是德式P08或38的，蹲地上者弹匣包是MP38/40的。
好像苏联和美军没这么干，为毛啊，不需要吗？
另外面对这伪装部队怎么防呢，米国有很多华裔
另外面对这伪装部队怎么防呢，米国有很多华裔
这个是MP38的美国改版MP45(注：这里的45指的用.45口径的子弹，而非列装年代）。
研制背景是二战早期，尽管欧洲战事如火如荼，但当时美德尚未宣战，双方为了谋求最大互惠利益，反而秘密签订了最早的“租借法案”，美方给德军提供了不少如橡胶、石油、航空铝材等军需品，而美方军队缺少一种轻便、生产简单、价格低廉的冲锋枪（美军的汤姆森1921比之MP38显得最为笨重而复杂，生产成本更高），最为回报，德方为美方在MP38的基础上简单改装而研发了使用.45ACP子弹和通用美M1921冲锋枪弹匣的冲锋枪MP45，正待德方准备交付所有MP45的生产图纸和生产线时，珍珠港事件爆发，德方不得已向美方宣战，于是这种MP45冲锋枪的生产计划也随之搁浅。不过美方后来凭借一些MP45的样枪而研发了著名的黄油枪M3，也算是MP45的最好继承者。
到了二战末期，日本自知不敌盟军的强大攻势，准备本土玉碎，向德国求助以获得军援，德军分析出美军肯定会在日本四岛登陆，在本土战中，日方会获得不少美制枪支弹药，为了充分利用这些缴获的资源，使用美制.45弹药和M1921弹匣的MP45冲锋枪是一种优良的近战武器，于是少部分MP45的样枪和生产图纸被运到日本，结果未等日本“玉碎”，两颗原子弹彻底粉碎了皇国军民的斗志，这些MP45也就流入日本民间。
另外作为第二批“租借法案”的受惠国，苏联也得到少量MP45，装备坦克驾驶员等特殊兵种，图中即为一美方技术人员在向苏联驾驶员演示加装消音器的MP45
研制背景是二战早期，尽管欧洲战事如火如荼，但当时美德尚未宣战，双方为了谋求最大互惠利益，反而秘密签订了最早的“租借法案”，美方给德军提供了不少如橡胶、石油、航空铝材等军需品，而美方军队缺少一种轻便、生产简单、价格低廉的冲锋枪（美军的汤姆森1921比之MP38显得最为笨重而复杂，生产成本更高），最为回报，德方为美方在MP38的基础上简单改装而研发了使用.45ACP子弹和通用美M1921冲锋枪弹匣的冲锋枪MP45，正待德方准备交付所有MP45的生产图纸和生产线时，珍珠港事件爆发，德方不得已向美方宣战，于是这种MP45冲锋枪的生产计划也随之搁浅。不过美方后来凭借一些MP45的样枪而研发了著名的黄油枪M3，也算是MP45的最好继承者。
到了二战末期，日本自知不敌盟军的强大攻势，准备本土玉碎，向德国求助以获得军援，德军分析出美军肯定会在日本四岛登陆，在本土战中，日方会获得不少美制枪支弹药，为了充分利用这些缴获的资源，使用美制.45弹药和M1921弹匣的MP45冲锋枪是一种优良的近战武器，于是少部分MP45的样枪和生产图纸被运到日本，结果未等日本“玉碎”，两颗原子弹彻底粉碎了皇国军民的斗志，这些MP45也就流入日本民间。
另外作为第二批“租借法案”的受惠国，苏联也得到少量MP45，装备坦克驾驶员等特殊兵种，图中即为一美方技术人员在向苏联驾驶员演示加装消音器的MP45
上班族 发表于 2012-1-6 16:03 ![]()
这个是MP38的美国改版MP45(注：这里的45指的用.45口径的子弹，而非列装年代）。
研制背景是二战早期，尽管 ...
好！厉害~+100分~！！
这个是MP38的美国改版MP45(注：这里的45指的用.45口径的子弹，而非列装年代）。
研制背景是二战早期，尽管 ...
好！厉害~+100分~！！
看着都像毛子。。背景还是个T34
MP 45的说法是否开玩笑?
最早看到这段MP45的文,是SBZ 一篇 好象是日本女演员端MP38/40的剧照 的文章
1楼照片中的MP的弹匣,明显不是 .45的
最早看到这段MP45的文,是SBZ 一篇 好象是日本女演员端MP38/40的剧照 的文章
1楼照片中的MP的弹匣,明显不是 .45的
上班族 发表于 2012-1-6 16:03 ![]()
这个是MP38的美国改版MP45(注：这里的45指的用.45口径的子弹，而非列装年代）。
研制背景是二战早期，尽管 ...
哥也算是老军迷了，对这：MP38的美国改版MP45 确是闻所未闻，今天又长见识了！果断右键！
这个是MP38的美国改版MP45(注：这里的45指的用.45口径的子弹，而非列装年代）。
研制背景是二战早期，尽管 ...
哥也算是老军迷了，对这：MP38的美国改版MP45 确是闻所未闻，今天又长见识了！果断右键！
上班族 发表于 2012-1-6 16:03 ![]()
这个是MP38的美国改版MP45(注：这里的45指的用.45口径的子弹，而非列装年代）。
研制背景是二战早期，尽管 ...
你这是从sc上那个漏沟持枪女的帖子里复制过来的吧？
这个是MP38的美国改版MP45(注：这里的45指的用.45口径的子弹，而非列装年代）。
研制背景是二战早期，尽管 ...
你这是从sc上那个漏沟持枪女的帖子里复制过来的吧？
版主V5
上班族 发表于 2012-1-6 09:18 ![]()
英文资料，有兴趣的自己翻译吧
Sound Suppressor for the MP40
MP40真有消声器啊
英文资料，有兴趣的自己翻译吧
Sound Suppressor for the MP40
MP40真有消声器啊