ZT:中国vs 美国 《历史的终结》的“终结”1、2、3+网民 ...

来源:百度文库 编辑:超级军网 时间:2024/04/29 04:41:19
翻译地址:http://www.ptfcn.com/ptfcn/j/765/

说实话,这种回帖的确比泥轰那群YAHOO众有水平得多,顺手求泥轰有水平有讨论有回帖的时政论坛。

原文标题:China v America The end of the end of history

导读:上世纪80年代末年代90年代初美国人福山发布了《历史的终结》,该书在当时风靡一时,今年该书的作者发布新作《政治秩序诸起源》,经济学人对此书发表了书评,读者评论比较激烈,共有91条,由于评论太多,不得不分给几个翻译合作。
今天放上的是由ingiz同学翻译的正文和前20条评论,后面的70的评论将在周末分批发布,敬请期待。




FRANCIS FUKUYAMA'S 1990 article "The End of History" profoundly shaped my political identity: I thought it was so completely wrong-headed that I spent weeks working out the many ways in which I disagreed. I found it extremely implausible that Friedrich Hegel had simply figured out the direction of human political evolution in the early 19th century, and that everything else had been a matter of slow progress towards that goal, culminating in the Reagan-Mitterand-era spectrum of Western welfare-state capitalist democracies (with a preference for the Reagan end). Worse, Mr Fukuyama's thesis seemed like a strange right-wing version of the complacency of Soviet ideologues: the arc of history has already been mapped, and we are its apotheosis. It seemed a recipe for intellectual stagnation and a likely excuse for all sorts of foolishness and misconduct. After all, if we're the goal of history, how can we do wrong?

弗朗西斯 福山1990年的作品《历史的终结》深深影响了我政治认同的成形:因为这部作品是如此的刚愎自用,我花了数周的时间来总结出我所不认同的各种看法。佛里德里希 黑格尔在19世纪早期就指出了人类政治演化的方向,我认为这听起来太假了。并且,其他的所有一切都是这个缓慢进程中的一个因素,而这个进程的终点就是里根-密特朗时代的西方社会福利国家的资本主义民主(最终还是偏向里根式)。更有甚者,福山先生的论调听起来就像是苏联理论家自鸣得意的右翼版本:历史前进的方向早已注定,而我们就是其最终典范。这看起来就像是给思维停滞之人的一张处方,也是一个为各种各样愚蠢或者不端行为开脱的合适借口。毕竟,如果我们是历史的终点,我们怎么可能会犯错?

I never would have imagined that I would read a Francis Fukuyama essay 20 years later about the current direction of world history, and agree vehemently with every single word of it. Mr Fukuyama's Financial Times piece yesterday, headlined "US democracy has little to teach China", is brilliant. It's not the first time anyone has expressed these ideas, but Mr Fukuyama puts it all together in a fashion that's close to perfect. As he writes, America "managed to fritter away" the immense moral capital it held in 2000 "in remarkably short order", due to foreign-policy missteps such as the invasion of Iraq and, later, the American-centred global financial crisis. (It didn't help that American treasury and central-bank officials, who months earlier had been lecturing China on the need to decrease state involvement in the financial sector, found themselves feverishly doing just what Chinese officials were doing—funneling money to state-champion companies, hectoring large banks to cut profits and lend more—but with less success.) Meanwhile, China is "riding high", increasingly confident that it has nothing to learn from America. Here's the catch:

我从未曾想象到在20年后的今天,当我读到弗朗西斯 福山先生的一篇关于当前历史走向的文章,其中的每一个字都深得我心。《金融时报》昨天以“美式民主没多少可以教给中国”为大标题刊登了福山先生的文章,非常出色。这不是第一次有人表达这些观点,但是福山先生把它们几近完美地整合到了一起。正如他写的那样,美国“以吃快餐般的惊异速度”“设法浪费了”其在2000年拥有的巨大的道德资本,这都得归咎于外交政策的失足如入侵伊拉克,以及之后以美国为中心席卷全球的金融危机。(美国财政部和中央银行的官员数月之前还给中国上课说国家有必要减少对金融领域的介入,而他们自己现在正狂热地做着中国官员正在干的事情——为国内一流企业注资,恐吓大银行削减其利润并借贷更多——但做得不如中国政府成功,而且根本无济于事。)与此同时,中国“洋洋得意”,逐渐膨胀的信心令其认为从美国这里再无东西可学。他们追上来了。

But what is the Chinese model? Many observers casually put it in an “authoritarian capitalist” box, along with Russia, Iran and Singapore. But China’s model is sui generis; its specific mode of governance is difficult to describe, much less emulate, which is why it is not up for export.The most important strength of the Chinese political system is its ability to make large, complex decisions quickly, and to make them relatively well, at least in economic policy. This is most evident in the area of infrastructure, where China has put into place airports, dams, high-speed rail, water and electricity systems to feed its growing industrial base. Contrast this with [democratic] India, where every new investment is subject to blockage by trade unions, lobby groups, peasant associations and courts...Nonetheless, the quality of Chinese government is higher than in Russia, Iran, or the other authoritarian regimes with which it is often lumped—precisely because Chinese rulers feel some degree of accountability towards their population. That accountability is not, of course, procedural; the authority of the Chinese Communist party is limited neither by a rule of law nor by democratic elections. But while its leaders limit public criticism, they do try to stay on top of popular discontents, and shift policy in response.

但何谓“中国模式”?许多观察家轻率地将其和俄罗斯、伊朗及新加坡一道,归类为“威权资本主义”的范畴。但是,中国模式是自成一格的;它具体的治理方式很难形容,更不用说模仿了,这就是该模式未能输出的原因所在。中国政治体系最重要的威力在于它能够迅速做出庞大而复杂的决策,并使其相对合理适宜,至少在经济政策制定上是这样的。最明显的证据就在基建领域,中国建造了大量的机场、大坝、高铁、水电站来满足其不断增多的工业基地。“民主的”的印度正好相反,那边的每一笔新投资都会遭到工会、游说团体、农会以及法院的层层阻挠…尽管如此,中国政府的能力远超俄罗斯、伊朗、或者其他威权政体——通常权力都是集中的——而这恰恰因为中国的统治者对其人民感到一定程度上的责任。这责任当然不是程序上的;TG既没有法律的限制,也不受民主选举的制约。但是领导者在限制公开批评的同时,他们也确实试图回应大众的不满情绪,转变政策以为回应。

Mr Fukuyama thinks American hopes that China's economic modernisation will require a shift to multi-party democracy are misplaced.

福山先生认为,美国期望中国经济的现代化会向导致多党民主的转变的算盘落空了。

Americans have long hoped China might undergo a democratic transition as it got wealthier, and before it became powerful enough to become a strategic and political threat. This seems unlikely, however. The government knows how to cater to the interests of Chinese elites and the emerging middle classes, and builds on their fear of populism. This is why there is little support for genuine multi-party democracy. The elites worry about the example of democracy in Thailand—where the election of a populist premier led to violent conflict between his supporters and the establishment—as a warning of what could happen to them

长久以来,美国人一直期望在中国变得更加富裕的同时也会经历一个民主化的转变,在其变得足够强大成为战略上和政治上的威胁之前。然而,现在看来是不可能了。政府知道怎样去迎合那些精英和新兴中产阶级的兴趣,这有赖于他们对民粹主义的恐惧。这就是为什么只有极少数人支持多党民主的原因所在。中国的精英们对泰国民主政治的先例感到担心——一个平民总理的当选导致了其支持者和反对派之间的暴力冲突——这对他们来说是个警示。

Ultimately, Mr Fukuyama's sympathies are clearly with a less statist economic policy and democratic governance. But he doesn't think this model is assured of triumph on its own.

最终,福山先生明显偏向较少中央集权色彩的经济政策和民主治理的模式。但他自己也不认为这个模式就一定能够确保胜利。

[I]f the democratic, market-oriented model is to prevail, Americans need to own up to their own mistakes and misconceptions. Washington’s foreign policy during the past decade was too militarised and unilateral, succeeding only in generating a self-defeating anti-Americanism. In economic policy, Reaganism long outlived its initial successes, producing only budget deficits, thoughtless tax-cutting and inadequate financial regulation.These problems are to some extent being acknowledged and addressed. But there is a deeper problem with the American model that is nowhere close to being solved. China adapts quickly, making difficult decisions and implementing them effectively. Americans pride themselves on constitutional checks and balances, based on a political culture that distrusts centralised government. This system has ensured individual liberty and a vibrant private sector, but it has now become polarised and ideologically rigid. At present it shows little appetite for dealing with the long-term fiscal challenges the US faces. Democracy in America may have an inherent legitimacy that the Chinese system lacks, but it will not be much of a model to anyone if the government is divided against itself and cannot govern.

如果民主的、以市场为导向的模式盛行,那么美国人必须爽快地承认他们自己的错误和误解。过去十年,华盛顿的外交政策过于军事化和单边主义,只在引发弄巧成拙的反美主义上获得了成功。在经济政策方面,里根主义在初见成效后的漫长岁月中,只是不断制造财政赤字、轻率的减税和不充分的金融监管等等问题。这些问题在一定程度上是公认的,并且被反复提及。但是美国模式有一个深层次的问题从未曾解决。中国适应得很快,做出艰难的决策并且能有效地执行。美国人很为他们基于宪法的核查和制衡体系感到自豪,而这是基于对中央集权政府的不信任的政治文化。这个体系保证了个人自由和充满活力的私营成分,但是现在它造成了分化和意识形态上的僵化。现在它几乎无法显现出对解决美国面临的长期财政挑战的欲望。美国的民主政治可能拥有中国体系所欠缺的内在的合法性,但当政府的分歧足以阻碍自身运作,以致无法行使管理职能,那么对任何人来说它也不过只是个失败模式罢了。

I really have nothing to add to this. What Mr Fukuyama understands, and what so many Americans can't seem to accept, is that the Chinese mode of governance seems to be quite stable. There is no plausible threat to the political monopoly of the Chinese Communist Party. Eastern Europeans abandoned belief in Soviet Communism because its economic model was a pathetic shambles, and even so, it took decades to collapse. The Chinese economic model, meanwhile, is a productive powerhouse. As long as it maintains the confidence of its citizens, there's little reason to think that China's political system is going to change on any timescale subject to punditry.

我真的对此没有任何可补充的。福山先生所理解的,也是那么多美国人看来所不能接受的是中国的管理模式看起来相当的稳固。对于TG来说,没有任何看似可信的威胁。东欧各国抛弃了共产主义信仰是因为苏联的经济模式摇摇欲坠,即便如此,它的崩溃也花费了数十年的时间。相比之下,中国的经济模式就如同富有成效的发电所。只要她能维持国民的信心,没有理由认为中国的威权政治体系将会在未来某个时候发生改变。

More broadly, what Mr Fukuyama is doing here (and he's been on this track for years now) really retracts the thesis to which he subscribed in the early 1990s. History, he's saying, isn't closed. It's by no means clear that the United States or any other welfare-state capitalist liberal democracy is the goal. It's not clear where we're heading, and we should keep our wits about us and adapt; we can be left behind, just as others were before us.

更宽泛地讲,福山先生的所为(他在这条道上已经很多年了)真的是在自打自己1990年代早期所提出的观点的嘴巴。他认为历史不是封闭的。很明显,美国或者其他任何一个福利国家的资本主义自由民主制绝不是终点。我们正在前往的目的地依旧不明朗,我应该保持自己的睿智并且去适应;我们可能会落人之后,就像曾经其他国家领先我们的时候一样。

(Photo credit: AFP)



评论翻译


g cross wrote: Jan 18th 2011 10:12 GMT

@ ccusa: "So throw out the Constitution? The fact is there's nowhere to turn except to what Mr. Fukuyama calls the model based on inherent legitimacy."

That is a false dichotomy; there are plenty of functional democracies in the world that don't use our Constitution.

回复ccusa:“那么就扔掉宪法吧?事实是你无法反驳福山先生所说的基于内在合法性的模式。”

这是一个错误的二分法;这世界上有很多正在运作的民主政治并没有采用我们的宪法。

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kid destroyer wrote: Jan 18th 2011 11:07 GMT

While I love reading what Fukuyama writes, he has a tendency to express whatever the current consensus is quite well but without much real critical ability. China is growing! Exactly as we'd expect it to, re: unshackling China's economy, Krugman's "myth of asian economies", etc.

我很喜欢看福山写的东西,他总能够很好的表达出当前舆论热点,但是没有太强的真正的批判能力。中国正在发展!正像我们之前所期望的那样,《重新解缚的中国经济》、克鲁格曼的《亚洲经济神话》等等书籍

China can efficiently make decisions! Except, of course, when it can't, when it's blocked by infighting (see: currency decisions which different parts of government have different opinions on, the military independently making decisions, Hu's declarations and retractions).

中国能有效地做出决策!当然,有时候也不能,当有内斗阻碍时。(货币政策的制定,政府的不同部门都有各自不同的想法;军队决策独立,涛哥的任务只是宣告和撤销)

Chinese people are happy! Except for the increase in protests despite a growing economy (what will happen when they have an inevitable recession? who knows?).

中国人民很高兴!但随着经济的发展,不满和抗议也在增多(当他们遇到不可避免的不景气时会发生什么呢?谁知道?)

This isn't to say that he's not RIGHT. But all he's doing here is once again giving voice to common conceptions while ignoring the complexities of the real world. I don't ever get the sense that he's digging deeply, here.

这不是说他说的不对。但是他在这所作的一切不过是再一次表达一种普遍观念,却忽视了现实世界的复杂性。我甚至没有感觉到他有在深入挖掘这个问题。

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LaContra wrote: Jan 18th 2011 11:35 GMT

The western liberal perspective is anchored by the belief that Chinese leaders (and other market orientated authoritarians) secretly realise that they are on the wrong side of history, clinging to their centralised power by denying their people any meaningful democratic discourse.

西方自由主义者一个根深蒂固的看法是中国领导人(以及其他市场导向的独裁者)暗地里意识到他们处于历史错误的对立面上,通过打压人民的一切有意义的民主呼声维持权力的集中。

This is where the western liberal mindset, which claims its legitimacy through its declared universality, departs from reality. The Chinese not only believe that liberal democracy is not inevitable, they view it as truly undesirable.

这就是西方自由主义者的心态,通过宣扬其普适性来主张其合法性,而没有从实际出发。中国人不单认为民主自由不是不可避免的,他们视其为不受欢迎的东西。

Westerners of course have an inherent belief in superiority of their system, unfortunately history has not progressed enough to validate that perspective. Philosophically, there is no reason to elevate one system above the other and comparatively the Chinese model, being sui generis, has not been in existence long enough to be judged.

西方人想当然地有一种内在的信念认为他们的体系更加优越,不幸的是历史未能更前进一步以证实那种观点。从哲学观点来讲,没有理由刻意抬高一种体系来置于其他之上,相较来说,中国模式是自成一格,也没有经历足够长时间的考验从而对其优劣作出判决。

The Soviet system collapsed because of the contradictions within a planned centralised communist economy and the economic pressures of the Cold War. The Cold War was fought by the US because the USSR offered a then plausible alternative to capitalism and aggressively exported their system. The Chinese are fellow capitalists but are canny enough not to threaten the west in the ideological stakes, they don't export their model thus their place in the capitalist system protects them from a cold war like engagement with the west.

苏联体系的崩溃是因为中央规划的共产主义经济体制和冷战带来的经济压力之间不可调和的矛盾造成。美国挑起的冷战是因为当时苏联提供了资本主义之外看似合理的第二种选择,并且它们积极地输出这种体系。中国人也是资本主义道上的同伴,但他们足够精明以避免在意识形态上威胁西方,他们不输出自己的模式,因此他们在资本主义体系中的位置保护他们免受冷战,卷入和西方的斗争之中。

Fukuyama is right on the money this time...America, of late, has wasted its moral, economic, and political capital thus its ability to cajole or influence China which is a shame because there is no inevitability of China morphing into a liberal democratic state over time nor do they stand athwart the path of history in resisting political liberalisation.

福山这次在货币方面是对的。。。美国近来浪费了它道德、经济以及政治的资本,因此它诱骗或者影响中国的能力成了一件丢脸的事情,因为没有任何迹象表明中国会随着时间的推移不可避免地转变成为一个自由民主国家,而他们也没有在历史前进的道路上挡道、拒绝政治自由化。

The argument is whether market capitalism or liberal democracy is the true engine of modernisation and development. Just because America considers that its democratic credentials created its economic development does not make it axiomatic and universal....So far the Chinese are proving that the opposite is equally true, that economic development extends a legitimacy to their political system

争论在于市场资本主义或者自由民主是否是现代化和发展进步的真正引擎。只是因为美国认为它自己那张民主牌子是经济发展的之源,也不能说明这就是放之四海而皆准的真理。迄今为止,中国人一直在证明相反的做法一样可行,而经济发展也赋予了他们政治体系的正当性。

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OneAegis wrote: Jan 18th 2011 10:14 GMT

I don't think the Constitution needs to be thrown out, nor was that the recommendation. If anything, the document allows for its own amendment. That being said, we're riding our moral high horse straight towards a cliff. The Constitution will be of little comfort should some plausible scenarios play out within the next 50 years or so. The issue at hand is that many of the problems we have today will become unfixable if we do not address them in a timely manner, if they aren't already.

我不认为有必要丢掉宪法,也没有推荐的必要。非要说点啥的话,这份文件允许其对自身的修订,那即是说,我们正骑着道德的高头大马直奔悬崖而去。在接下来的50年左右的时间内,那些看起来让人稍感安慰貌似合理的戏码也会逐渐演完。眼前首要问题是很多我们目前碰到的难题如果我们不准备好及时去解决的话,以后将会变得一发不可收拾。

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bampbs wrote: Jan 18th 2011 11:18 GMT

I thought "The End of History" was hubristic nonsense.

我认为《历史的终结》完全是傲慢自大的废话。

China has a large majority who have not enjoyed the blessings of explosive growth. I wonder how long the CCP has to deliver them to the have-nots before they get dangerous. It is one thing to order peasant soldiers to shoot down students; it may not work if their own families rise.

中国有相当大的一部分人没有享受到经济爆炸式增长带来的恩惠。我在想在他们变得危险之前,TG得花多少时间把他们全部变得一无所有。让农民出身的士兵去射杀学生是一码事,当他们面对自己家人奋起之时这招就行不通了。

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John Albert Robertson wrote: Jan 18th 2011 11:03 GMT

As somebody wrote in response to the (infamous) Tiger Mom article, "The Chinese feel that they can learn from Western education. Why can't Westerners learn from Chinese parents?"

正如有人在回复那篇虎妈(骂名远扬)文章时写的那样,“中国人觉得他们能从西方教育之中学到东西,为什么西方人就不能学习一下中国父母?”

Similarly, China has had no problem learning from the American way of doing business. It's time for our lawmakers to take a hard, nondogmatic look at Chinese business (and government) practices, and to return the favor.

类似的,中国在学习美国人做生意的时候完全不会有任何问题。我们的立法委员是时候该去好好审视一下中国人做生意的(或者政府管理)方式,并且加以实践,以彼之道还施彼身。

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JGradus wrote: Jan 18th 2011 10:18 GMT

I am not the greatest fan of the end of history meme myself (it is sort of dissaproved by now right) especially when used in Europe as a defense for no defense.

我自己并不是《历史的终结》一书的超级狂热粉丝(到现今倒是一种不赞同了),尤其是拿欧洲来说事最后没能说明啥。翻译地址:http://www.ptfcn.com/ptfcn/j/765/

说实话,这种回帖的确比泥轰那群YAHOO众有水平得多,顺手求泥轰有水平有讨论有回帖的时政论坛。

原文标题:China v America The end of the end of history

导读:上世纪80年代末年代90年代初美国人福山发布了《历史的终结》,该书在当时风靡一时,今年该书的作者发布新作《政治秩序诸起源》,经济学人对此书发表了书评,读者评论比较激烈,共有91条,由于评论太多,不得不分给几个翻译合作。
今天放上的是由ingiz同学翻译的正文和前20条评论,后面的70的评论将在周末分批发布,敬请期待。




FRANCIS FUKUYAMA'S 1990 article "The End of History" profoundly shaped my political identity: I thought it was so completely wrong-headed that I spent weeks working out the many ways in which I disagreed. I found it extremely implausible that Friedrich Hegel had simply figured out the direction of human political evolution in the early 19th century, and that everything else had been a matter of slow progress towards that goal, culminating in the Reagan-Mitterand-era spectrum of Western welfare-state capitalist democracies (with a preference for the Reagan end). Worse, Mr Fukuyama's thesis seemed like a strange right-wing version of the complacency of Soviet ideologues: the arc of history has already been mapped, and we are its apotheosis. It seemed a recipe for intellectual stagnation and a likely excuse for all sorts of foolishness and misconduct. After all, if we're the goal of history, how can we do wrong?

弗朗西斯 福山1990年的作品《历史的终结》深深影响了我政治认同的成形:因为这部作品是如此的刚愎自用,我花了数周的时间来总结出我所不认同的各种看法。佛里德里希 黑格尔在19世纪早期就指出了人类政治演化的方向,我认为这听起来太假了。并且,其他的所有一切都是这个缓慢进程中的一个因素,而这个进程的终点就是里根-密特朗时代的西方社会福利国家的资本主义民主(最终还是偏向里根式)。更有甚者,福山先生的论调听起来就像是苏联理论家自鸣得意的右翼版本:历史前进的方向早已注定,而我们就是其最终典范。这看起来就像是给思维停滞之人的一张处方,也是一个为各种各样愚蠢或者不端行为开脱的合适借口。毕竟,如果我们是历史的终点,我们怎么可能会犯错?

I never would have imagined that I would read a Francis Fukuyama essay 20 years later about the current direction of world history, and agree vehemently with every single word of it. Mr Fukuyama's Financial Times piece yesterday, headlined "US democracy has little to teach China", is brilliant. It's not the first time anyone has expressed these ideas, but Mr Fukuyama puts it all together in a fashion that's close to perfect. As he writes, America "managed to fritter away" the immense moral capital it held in 2000 "in remarkably short order", due to foreign-policy missteps such as the invasion of Iraq and, later, the American-centred global financial crisis. (It didn't help that American treasury and central-bank officials, who months earlier had been lecturing China on the need to decrease state involvement in the financial sector, found themselves feverishly doing just what Chinese officials were doing—funneling money to state-champion companies, hectoring large banks to cut profits and lend more—but with less success.) Meanwhile, China is "riding high", increasingly confident that it has nothing to learn from America. Here's the catch:

我从未曾想象到在20年后的今天,当我读到弗朗西斯 福山先生的一篇关于当前历史走向的文章,其中的每一个字都深得我心。《金融时报》昨天以“美式民主没多少可以教给中国”为大标题刊登了福山先生的文章,非常出色。这不是第一次有人表达这些观点,但是福山先生把它们几近完美地整合到了一起。正如他写的那样,美国“以吃快餐般的惊异速度”“设法浪费了”其在2000年拥有的巨大的道德资本,这都得归咎于外交政策的失足如入侵伊拉克,以及之后以美国为中心席卷全球的金融危机。(美国财政部和中央银行的官员数月之前还给中国上课说国家有必要减少对金融领域的介入,而他们自己现在正狂热地做着中国官员正在干的事情——为国内一流企业注资,恐吓大银行削减其利润并借贷更多——但做得不如中国政府成功,而且根本无济于事。)与此同时,中国“洋洋得意”,逐渐膨胀的信心令其认为从美国这里再无东西可学。他们追上来了。

But what is the Chinese model? Many observers casually put it in an “authoritarian capitalist” box, along with Russia, Iran and Singapore. But China’s model is sui generis; its specific mode of governance is difficult to describe, much less emulate, which is why it is not up for export.The most important strength of the Chinese political system is its ability to make large, complex decisions quickly, and to make them relatively well, at least in economic policy. This is most evident in the area of infrastructure, where China has put into place airports, dams, high-speed rail, water and electricity systems to feed its growing industrial base. Contrast this with [democratic] India, where every new investment is subject to blockage by trade unions, lobby groups, peasant associations and courts...Nonetheless, the quality of Chinese government is higher than in Russia, Iran, or the other authoritarian regimes with which it is often lumped—precisely because Chinese rulers feel some degree of accountability towards their population. That accountability is not, of course, procedural; the authority of the Chinese Communist party is limited neither by a rule of law nor by democratic elections. But while its leaders limit public criticism, they do try to stay on top of popular discontents, and shift policy in response.

但何谓“中国模式”?许多观察家轻率地将其和俄罗斯、伊朗及新加坡一道,归类为“威权资本主义”的范畴。但是,中国模式是自成一格的;它具体的治理方式很难形容,更不用说模仿了,这就是该模式未能输出的原因所在。中国政治体系最重要的威力在于它能够迅速做出庞大而复杂的决策,并使其相对合理适宜,至少在经济政策制定上是这样的。最明显的证据就在基建领域,中国建造了大量的机场、大坝、高铁、水电站来满足其不断增多的工业基地。“民主的”的印度正好相反,那边的每一笔新投资都会遭到工会、游说团体、农会以及法院的层层阻挠…尽管如此,中国政府的能力远超俄罗斯、伊朗、或者其他威权政体——通常权力都是集中的——而这恰恰因为中国的统治者对其人民感到一定程度上的责任。这责任当然不是程序上的;TG既没有法律的限制,也不受民主选举的制约。但是领导者在限制公开批评的同时,他们也确实试图回应大众的不满情绪,转变政策以为回应。

Mr Fukuyama thinks American hopes that China's economic modernisation will require a shift to multi-party democracy are misplaced.

福山先生认为,美国期望中国经济的现代化会向导致多党民主的转变的算盘落空了。

Americans have long hoped China might undergo a democratic transition as it got wealthier, and before it became powerful enough to become a strategic and political threat. This seems unlikely, however. The government knows how to cater to the interests of Chinese elites and the emerging middle classes, and builds on their fear of populism. This is why there is little support for genuine multi-party democracy. The elites worry about the example of democracy in Thailand—where the election of a populist premier led to violent conflict between his supporters and the establishment—as a warning of what could happen to them

长久以来,美国人一直期望在中国变得更加富裕的同时也会经历一个民主化的转变,在其变得足够强大成为战略上和政治上的威胁之前。然而,现在看来是不可能了。政府知道怎样去迎合那些精英和新兴中产阶级的兴趣,这有赖于他们对民粹主义的恐惧。这就是为什么只有极少数人支持多党民主的原因所在。中国的精英们对泰国民主政治的先例感到担心——一个平民总理的当选导致了其支持者和反对派之间的暴力冲突——这对他们来说是个警示。

Ultimately, Mr Fukuyama's sympathies are clearly with a less statist economic policy and democratic governance. But he doesn't think this model is assured of triumph on its own.

最终,福山先生明显偏向较少中央集权色彩的经济政策和民主治理的模式。但他自己也不认为这个模式就一定能够确保胜利。

[I]f the democratic, market-oriented model is to prevail, Americans need to own up to their own mistakes and misconceptions. Washington’s foreign policy during the past decade was too militarised and unilateral, succeeding only in generating a self-defeating anti-Americanism. In economic policy, Reaganism long outlived its initial successes, producing only budget deficits, thoughtless tax-cutting and inadequate financial regulation.These problems are to some extent being acknowledged and addressed. But there is a deeper problem with the American model that is nowhere close to being solved. China adapts quickly, making difficult decisions and implementing them effectively. Americans pride themselves on constitutional checks and balances, based on a political culture that distrusts centralised government. This system has ensured individual liberty and a vibrant private sector, but it has now become polarised and ideologically rigid. At present it shows little appetite for dealing with the long-term fiscal challenges the US faces. Democracy in America may have an inherent legitimacy that the Chinese system lacks, but it will not be much of a model to anyone if the government is divided against itself and cannot govern.

如果民主的、以市场为导向的模式盛行,那么美国人必须爽快地承认他们自己的错误和误解。过去十年,华盛顿的外交政策过于军事化和单边主义,只在引发弄巧成拙的反美主义上获得了成功。在经济政策方面,里根主义在初见成效后的漫长岁月中,只是不断制造财政赤字、轻率的减税和不充分的金融监管等等问题。这些问题在一定程度上是公认的,并且被反复提及。但是美国模式有一个深层次的问题从未曾解决。中国适应得很快,做出艰难的决策并且能有效地执行。美国人很为他们基于宪法的核查和制衡体系感到自豪,而这是基于对中央集权政府的不信任的政治文化。这个体系保证了个人自由和充满活力的私营成分,但是现在它造成了分化和意识形态上的僵化。现在它几乎无法显现出对解决美国面临的长期财政挑战的欲望。美国的民主政治可能拥有中国体系所欠缺的内在的合法性,但当政府的分歧足以阻碍自身运作,以致无法行使管理职能,那么对任何人来说它也不过只是个失败模式罢了。

I really have nothing to add to this. What Mr Fukuyama understands, and what so many Americans can't seem to accept, is that the Chinese mode of governance seems to be quite stable. There is no plausible threat to the political monopoly of the Chinese Communist Party. Eastern Europeans abandoned belief in Soviet Communism because its economic model was a pathetic shambles, and even so, it took decades to collapse. The Chinese economic model, meanwhile, is a productive powerhouse. As long as it maintains the confidence of its citizens, there's little reason to think that China's political system is going to change on any timescale subject to punditry.

我真的对此没有任何可补充的。福山先生所理解的,也是那么多美国人看来所不能接受的是中国的管理模式看起来相当的稳固。对于TG来说,没有任何看似可信的威胁。东欧各国抛弃了共产主义信仰是因为苏联的经济模式摇摇欲坠,即便如此,它的崩溃也花费了数十年的时间。相比之下,中国的经济模式就如同富有成效的发电所。只要她能维持国民的信心,没有理由认为中国的威权政治体系将会在未来某个时候发生改变。

More broadly, what Mr Fukuyama is doing here (and he's been on this track for years now) really retracts the thesis to which he subscribed in the early 1990s. History, he's saying, isn't closed. It's by no means clear that the United States or any other welfare-state capitalist liberal democracy is the goal. It's not clear where we're heading, and we should keep our wits about us and adapt; we can be left behind, just as others were before us.

更宽泛地讲,福山先生的所为(他在这条道上已经很多年了)真的是在自打自己1990年代早期所提出的观点的嘴巴。他认为历史不是封闭的。很明显,美国或者其他任何一个福利国家的资本主义自由民主制绝不是终点。我们正在前往的目的地依旧不明朗,我应该保持自己的睿智并且去适应;我们可能会落人之后,就像曾经其他国家领先我们的时候一样。

(Photo credit: AFP)



评论翻译


g cross wrote: Jan 18th 2011 10:12 GMT

@ ccusa: "So throw out the Constitution? The fact is there's nowhere to turn except to what Mr. Fukuyama calls the model based on inherent legitimacy."

That is a false dichotomy; there are plenty of functional democracies in the world that don't use our Constitution.

回复ccusa:“那么就扔掉宪法吧?事实是你无法反驳福山先生所说的基于内在合法性的模式。”

这是一个错误的二分法;这世界上有很多正在运作的民主政治并没有采用我们的宪法。

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kid destroyer wrote: Jan 18th 2011 11:07 GMT

While I love reading what Fukuyama writes, he has a tendency to express whatever the current consensus is quite well but without much real critical ability. China is growing! Exactly as we'd expect it to, re: unshackling China's economy, Krugman's "myth of asian economies", etc.

我很喜欢看福山写的东西,他总能够很好的表达出当前舆论热点,但是没有太强的真正的批判能力。中国正在发展!正像我们之前所期望的那样,《重新解缚的中国经济》、克鲁格曼的《亚洲经济神话》等等书籍

China can efficiently make decisions! Except, of course, when it can't, when it's blocked by infighting (see: currency decisions which different parts of government have different opinions on, the military independently making decisions, Hu's declarations and retractions).

中国能有效地做出决策!当然,有时候也不能,当有内斗阻碍时。(货币政策的制定,政府的不同部门都有各自不同的想法;军队决策独立,涛哥的任务只是宣告和撤销)

Chinese people are happy! Except for the increase in protests despite a growing economy (what will happen when they have an inevitable recession? who knows?).

中国人民很高兴!但随着经济的发展,不满和抗议也在增多(当他们遇到不可避免的不景气时会发生什么呢?谁知道?)

This isn't to say that he's not RIGHT. But all he's doing here is once again giving voice to common conceptions while ignoring the complexities of the real world. I don't ever get the sense that he's digging deeply, here.

这不是说他说的不对。但是他在这所作的一切不过是再一次表达一种普遍观念,却忽视了现实世界的复杂性。我甚至没有感觉到他有在深入挖掘这个问题。

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LaContra wrote: Jan 18th 2011 11:35 GMT

The western liberal perspective is anchored by the belief that Chinese leaders (and other market orientated authoritarians) secretly realise that they are on the wrong side of history, clinging to their centralised power by denying their people any meaningful democratic discourse.

西方自由主义者一个根深蒂固的看法是中国领导人(以及其他市场导向的独裁者)暗地里意识到他们处于历史错误的对立面上,通过打压人民的一切有意义的民主呼声维持权力的集中。

This is where the western liberal mindset, which claims its legitimacy through its declared universality, departs from reality. The Chinese not only believe that liberal democracy is not inevitable, they view it as truly undesirable.

这就是西方自由主义者的心态,通过宣扬其普适性来主张其合法性,而没有从实际出发。中国人不单认为民主自由不是不可避免的,他们视其为不受欢迎的东西。

Westerners of course have an inherent belief in superiority of their system, unfortunately history has not progressed enough to validate that perspective. Philosophically, there is no reason to elevate one system above the other and comparatively the Chinese model, being sui generis, has not been in existence long enough to be judged.

西方人想当然地有一种内在的信念认为他们的体系更加优越,不幸的是历史未能更前进一步以证实那种观点。从哲学观点来讲,没有理由刻意抬高一种体系来置于其他之上,相较来说,中国模式是自成一格,也没有经历足够长时间的考验从而对其优劣作出判决。

The Soviet system collapsed because of the contradictions within a planned centralised communist economy and the economic pressures of the Cold War. The Cold War was fought by the US because the USSR offered a then plausible alternative to capitalism and aggressively exported their system. The Chinese are fellow capitalists but are canny enough not to threaten the west in the ideological stakes, they don't export their model thus their place in the capitalist system protects them from a cold war like engagement with the west.

苏联体系的崩溃是因为中央规划的共产主义经济体制和冷战带来的经济压力之间不可调和的矛盾造成。美国挑起的冷战是因为当时苏联提供了资本主义之外看似合理的第二种选择,并且它们积极地输出这种体系。中国人也是资本主义道上的同伴,但他们足够精明以避免在意识形态上威胁西方,他们不输出自己的模式,因此他们在资本主义体系中的位置保护他们免受冷战,卷入和西方的斗争之中。

Fukuyama is right on the money this time...America, of late, has wasted its moral, economic, and political capital thus its ability to cajole or influence China which is a shame because there is no inevitability of China morphing into a liberal democratic state over time nor do they stand athwart the path of history in resisting political liberalisation.

福山这次在货币方面是对的。。。美国近来浪费了它道德、经济以及政治的资本,因此它诱骗或者影响中国的能力成了一件丢脸的事情,因为没有任何迹象表明中国会随着时间的推移不可避免地转变成为一个自由民主国家,而他们也没有在历史前进的道路上挡道、拒绝政治自由化。

The argument is whether market capitalism or liberal democracy is the true engine of modernisation and development. Just because America considers that its democratic credentials created its economic development does not make it axiomatic and universal....So far the Chinese are proving that the opposite is equally true, that economic development extends a legitimacy to their political system

争论在于市场资本主义或者自由民主是否是现代化和发展进步的真正引擎。只是因为美国认为它自己那张民主牌子是经济发展的之源,也不能说明这就是放之四海而皆准的真理。迄今为止,中国人一直在证明相反的做法一样可行,而经济发展也赋予了他们政治体系的正当性。

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OneAegis wrote: Jan 18th 2011 10:14 GMT

I don't think the Constitution needs to be thrown out, nor was that the recommendation. If anything, the document allows for its own amendment. That being said, we're riding our moral high horse straight towards a cliff. The Constitution will be of little comfort should some plausible scenarios play out within the next 50 years or so. The issue at hand is that many of the problems we have today will become unfixable if we do not address them in a timely manner, if they aren't already.

我不认为有必要丢掉宪法,也没有推荐的必要。非要说点啥的话,这份文件允许其对自身的修订,那即是说,我们正骑着道德的高头大马直奔悬崖而去。在接下来的50年左右的时间内,那些看起来让人稍感安慰貌似合理的戏码也会逐渐演完。眼前首要问题是很多我们目前碰到的难题如果我们不准备好及时去解决的话,以后将会变得一发不可收拾。

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bampbs wrote: Jan 18th 2011 11:18 GMT

I thought "The End of History" was hubristic nonsense.

我认为《历史的终结》完全是傲慢自大的废话。

China has a large majority who have not enjoyed the blessings of explosive growth. I wonder how long the CCP has to deliver them to the have-nots before they get dangerous. It is one thing to order peasant soldiers to shoot down students; it may not work if their own families rise.

中国有相当大的一部分人没有享受到经济爆炸式增长带来的恩惠。我在想在他们变得危险之前,TG得花多少时间把他们全部变得一无所有。让农民出身的士兵去射杀学生是一码事,当他们面对自己家人奋起之时这招就行不通了。

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John Albert Robertson wrote: Jan 18th 2011 11:03 GMT

As somebody wrote in response to the (infamous) Tiger Mom article, "The Chinese feel that they can learn from Western education. Why can't Westerners learn from Chinese parents?"

正如有人在回复那篇虎妈(骂名远扬)文章时写的那样,“中国人觉得他们能从西方教育之中学到东西,为什么西方人就不能学习一下中国父母?”

Similarly, China has had no problem learning from the American way of doing business. It's time for our lawmakers to take a hard, nondogmatic look at Chinese business (and government) practices, and to return the favor.

类似的,中国在学习美国人做生意的时候完全不会有任何问题。我们的立法委员是时候该去好好审视一下中国人做生意的(或者政府管理)方式,并且加以实践,以彼之道还施彼身。

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JGradus wrote: Jan 18th 2011 10:18 GMT

I am not the greatest fan of the end of history meme myself (it is sort of dissaproved by now right) especially when used in Europe as a defense for no defense.

我自己并不是《历史的终结》一书的超级狂热粉丝(到现今倒是一种不赞同了),尤其是拿欧洲来说事最后没能说明啥。
But on the other hand, I sort of get the feeling that there really is no system that can be morally better than the liberal democracy. I know that ought and is are not the same, but I agree with ccusa in the simple fact that even if the liberal democracy is not the set fate of the world, we should strive to make it that.

但是从另外一方面,我有种这样的感觉:真的不会有比自由民主制更加能在道德上说得过去的政治体系了。我知道民主自由不会也不该是一个样的,但是我认同ccusa的一点:即使自由民主不是这个世界注定的命运,我们也应该要为此而奋斗。

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rewt66 wrote: Jan 18th 2011 11:22 GMT

I think my previous post didn't explain things quite well enough. Democracy can collapse if people are starving; people decide to back whoever will bring order, even if it means a loss of freedom. Democracy can also collapse from a lack of legitimacy - none of the representatives have a position that represents me, so I vote for none, and then I feel that I have no stake in the government. The US is flirting dangerously with both of these modes of collapse.

我想我之前的帖子没能足够清楚明白的解释这个问题。民主也会因为民众挨饿而崩溃;只要为他们带来面包,人们就会支持,即使这意味着丧失自由。民主也会因为缺乏正当性而崩溃——众议院中没有一个议员可以代表我的立场,所以我不会投票给任何人,然后我感到政府没有估计我的利益。美国也会面临这两种危险的政府垮台可能。

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cognate wrote: Jan 18th 2011 11:55 GMT

So, progressives love enlightened authoritarianism.

所以,进步人士喜爱开明的威权主义。

Surprise, surprise.

震惊,太震惊了

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rewt66 wrote: Jan 18th 2011 11:18 GMT

China's model collapses when (through bad luck, bad judgment, or ideological blindness) the leadership makes mistakes that cause serious economic reverses. America's model collapses when (through bad luck, bad judgment, or ideological blindness) the leadership makes mistakes that cause serious economic reverses. Right now, China's leadership seems further from ideological blindness than America's leadership.

中国模式的垮塌会发生在领导层犯错,进而导致严重的经济衰退之时(运气不好、判断失误或者是思想观念上的盲区),美国模式的垮塌同上。而就现在看来,中国的领导层看起来离思想观念上的盲区要比美国领导人要来得更远。

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Anjin-San wrote: Jan 19th 2011 12:34 GMT

As Johnson may point out, Democracy comes from Demos and Krasis, "Citizen's rule". This requires the "Demos" in question to have certain ability to govern him/herself individually and rein in their urges and desires.

正如johnson所指出的,“民主”一词来源于希腊语“民众”和“管辖”,也即是“民众的统治”。这也就意味着我们所讨论的“民众”须拥有一定程度上支配他们个人自身的能力,并且控制住其自身的强烈诉求和欲望。

What today's democracies don't do is have a solid education program geared to giving every citizen the intellectual and psychological ability to govern him/herself. In fact, often the reverse is done precisely because such self discipline is UNPOPULAR.

而今时今日的民主所欠缺的是那个赋予每个普通民众从理智和心理上支配其自身的可靠的教育计划。而事实上,最经常发生的恰恰是相反的事,因为这样的自我约束是不受欢迎的。

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ccusa wrote: Jan 18th 2011 10:07 GMT

So throw out the Constitution? The fact is there's nowhere to turn except to what Mr. Fukuyama calls the model based on inherent legitimacy. For better or worse, we're on the path called doing the right thing.

所以就拿宪法说事?事实是你无法反驳福山先生所说的基于内在合法性的模式。不管怎样,我们所走的是正途。

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JGradus wrote: Jan 18th 2011 10:29 GMT

@Wunala

Please not Bildt either, that man very closely ruined Sweden completely.

回复Wunala

请你别再表其中任何一个,那人差一点点就完全毁掉瑞典。

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Handworn wrote: Jan 18th 2011 11:23 GMT

The Japanese economy seemed unbeatable in the 1980s, and it was only when it went to illogical extremes and collapsed into stagnation that we saw where the cracks were. Will the Chinese avoid illogical extremes? The Chinese mode of government seems stable, but let's see them try to take away what ordinary Chinese people have attained by capitalism.

日本经济在1980年代看起来是无以伦比的,而我们只在其泡沫破裂陷入严重停滞之后才发现其中隐忧所在。中国人能否避免类似的情况?中国模式的政府看起来相当稳固,但是我们看到的是他们试图窃取普通民众在这波资本主义大发展中所获得的收益。

Finally, you say the Chinese make difficult decisions and implement them, quickly. All well and good, but do they make right ones? As much inflexibility of thought as their massive economy allows them to afford seems to me to be their hallmark.

最后,你会说中国人能迅速做出并且执行艰难的决定。这很美妙,但是他们一直能做出正确的决断么。经济规模的巨大程度使得他们的决策越发缺乏弹性,因为无法承受错误决策所带来的后果,这在我看来是他们的软肋所在。

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Anjin-San wrote: Jan 19th 2011 12:47 GMT

Obviously, ccusa hasn't heard of Constitutional Amendments...

很显然ccusa没听说过《宪法修正案》这档事。

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Wunala Dreaming wrote: Jan 19th 2011 1:20 GMT

@JGradus,

回复JGradus

Eeek. Sorry, mate.

咦,对不住,伙计

I was aiming for a mid-90s prime minister who rescued the Swedish model by conducting courageous reforms post-1992 recession.

我是在说90年代中期的一个首相,在1992年衰退之后,他勇敢地实行了改革,挽救了瑞典模式。

My apologies.

我道歉。

Who would take the credit for the rescue, then?

那么,到底谁可以接受这份荣誉呢?

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Pacer wrote: Jan 19th 2011 1:25 GMT

I think what I'm reading here is that liberal democracy feels good but makes for weak decisions and an economy vulnerable to clever competition. With that I would agree.

我认为我正在看的这篇文章所表达的是自由民主制自我感觉良好,但是在决策上相当薄弱,并且其经济也更容易遭受他人灵活的竞争。我会赞同这个观点。

However America doesn't really have liberal democracy, except in the sense that within a few wide bounds one can say what one wants. From a representation standpoint, politicians work hard for the money, and as a friend noted to me recently, there's no problem our government can't solve as long as there are obscene profits to be made from the solution. Not many K-Street heavy hitters working for the cost saving elements of Obamacare, for example, but an army of such folks fighting for suicidal increased spending obligations...

然而,美国并不是真正的自由民主,除了在有限的几个领域内人们可以畅所欲言。在一个具有普遍代表性的观点看来,政客们努力工作的目的就是为捞钱,正如我一个朋友最近和我说起的那样,没有我们政府解决不了的问题,只要这个解决方案能够为他们带来该死的利益。举例来讲,他们之中的许多显耀人物并没有为奥巴马医疗改革方案的成本节省效力,而我们就靠这帮乌合之众跟自杀性的不断壮大的开支府债务搏斗….

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Wunala Dreaming wrote: Jan 18th 2011 10:20 GMT

A very good post, M.S.

文章很不错,M.S.

As for preferring the Reagan end of the Reagan-Mitterrand spectrum, I guess you did not have to go out so much on a limb there. Considering you could take virtually everything Mitterrand did while in power (whether in social, economic, foreign or environmental policies) and point out that it was the wrong thing to do.

至于在里根-密特朗时代中倾向于里根式,我猜你原本没有必要再这些枝节上大做文章。考虑到你可以举出密特朗掌权时所做的每件事(社会、经济、外交或者环保政策等领域),并指出他做得不对的地方。

I do not particularly rate Reagan either.

我也不是特别地去责骂里根。

How about the Kohl-Chrétien-Kok-Bildt spectrum instead?

用Kohl-Chrétien-Kok-Bildt时代来作为代替,如何?

:)

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ccusa wrote: Jan 19th 2011 1:22 GMT

Anjin, to be fair, I have heard of amending the Constitution. I suppose I was a bit loose with my language. When I say "so throw out the Constitution" I meant throw out specific provisions, like the ones that ensure checks and balances, by amending it. Yes it would still be the Constitution, so technically I've made an error. I hope you can still see the point I'm trying to make notwithstanding the technical error.

Anjin,公平地说,我听说过修订宪法。我想我在语言表述上可能有点松散。当我说“那么扔掉宪法”,我的意思是说,抛开具体的规定条文,比如说那些确保政府机关之间相互制衡的条文,重新修订它们。是的,这仍然是宪法,所以严格说来我犯了一个错误。我依然希望你能够明白我试图解释的这一点,尽管有个技术性的错误。

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nezahualcoyotl wrote: Jan 18th 2011 10:39 GMT

To me it does not seem that Fukuyama is unsubscribing to capitalist liberal democracies as the final goal. Instead that America needs to live up to its own mistakes for democracy to prevail. His article hints that he expects china to eventually become a democracy when it faces an economic crisis, something about democracies being strong through adversity. I guess we'll see.

Its a strange article fukuyama has written with the title conflicting with his beliefs, i suspect he is saying he believes china believes that america has little to teach it. Anyway its confusing tbe way these academics operate

在我看来,那篇文章并不是说福山不再认为资本主义自由民主制是终极目标,而是说美国必须亲身经受民主各项弊端的考验,以待其最后的胜利。他的文章暗示他期望中国最终变成一个民主国家,当它面临一场经济危机之时,民主的诉求会在这种逆境中更加强烈。我猜我们会看到这一天。那是篇奇怪的文章,文章的标题和福山自己的信念发生了冲突,我猜想他是要表达这样一个意思:他认为中国坚信美国再没有多少东西可供传授了。总之这篇文章在学术上相当混乱。

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Mad Hatter wrote: Jan 19th 2011 2:25 GMT

Different strokes for different folks.

萝卜白菜各有所爱。

Many of us Americans cannot accept that our system has any faults.

我们美国人很多不能接受我们的体系存在一丝一毫的故障。

We have a perfect constitution, and God is on our side.

我们有一部完美的宪法,而且上帝也在我们这边。

Everyone else is a pinko communist or heathen.

其他所有人要么是左倾共产主义者,要么就是异教徒。

Excellent piece, but, unfortunately this sort of observation will not be heard by the general population, and even if it were - we wouldn't learn anything from it.

说得好极了,但不幸的是这类言论是不会为普罗大众所知的,即便能够为人所知,我们也不会从学到什么东西。

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导读:上世纪80年代末年代90年代初美国人福山发布了《历史的终结》,该书在当时风靡一时,今年该书的作者发布新作《政治秩序诸起源》,经济学人对此书发表了书评,读者评论比较激烈,共有91条,由于评论太多,不得不分给几个翻译合作。
今天放上的是由solar115同学翻译的评论,后面的评论将在周末分批发布,敬请期待。
请在这里填写原文译文相关内容!

评论翻译

Tzimisces wrote: Jan 19th 2011 2:35 GMT

Which isn't to say that liberal democracy is the end of history either. Of all the contingent development paths so far, we're tops. Says nothing about tomorrow, but until the Chinese hit the roadblocks of maximum exploitation of existing technology, full employment in the market sector, and no further gains to be had by rationalizing government we won't know if their system is a challenger or if we're just witnessing the catch up.

At this point everyone is just shaking the Magic 8 Ball*.

这也不是说自由民主是历史的终端。在现有各种发展路线中,我们最高。不说未来,但是除非中国已到达现有科技所能支撑的发展极限瓶颈、市场充分就业、且通过规范化政府已不能获得更大收益,在此之前,我们无法确定,他们的体系是否是一个挑战者,或者说我们是否在目睹他们的追赶过程。

而在当前,每个人也只不过是在算卦而已*。

【*译者注:Magic 8 Ball,8号魔法球,一种占卜的玩具,摇一摇能摇出一些固有的简短文字答案。】

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Corporateanarchist wrote: Jan 19th 2011 11:09 GMT

Must admit I've always found the prating of some people about democracy stuck in my throat. Is democracy so perfect in France, the UK, the USA, or anywhere else, the answer is obviously no. Remember if voting changed anything they’d make it illegal. It has however delivered “bigger cages and longer chains” for “The West” which can count as a success.

必须承认,不少人对民主的空谈总是令我难以忍受。民主是否真的如此完美地适用于法国、英国、美国还有其他所有地方?答案显然是否定的。想想看投票是否改变了任何被他们弄成非法的事物?它只不过是为“西方”提供了“更大的笼子和更长的锁链”,这可以被当作一个成就。

I’m not sure how much longer it will continue to do so. It’s certainly doubtful it does the same for developing nations. Trying to impose democracy (especially in the middle of a war zone) is close to lunacy it will either spontaneously occur due to internal will or it is not the correct solution.

我不确定,这样的状况还能持续多久。我非常怀疑它是否能对发展中国家起到同样的效果。想强施民主(尤其在战乱地区)就和精神失常差不多。民主要么就是出于内部意愿自然产生的,要么就不是正确的道路。

If we have to pigeon hole China I’d look upon it as a sort of noblesse oblige* feudalism operating in a capitalist framework and it seems to work for them. I’d guess it will continue to work as long as the expectations of the lowest income 40% are so low , the aspirations of the middle 40-50 % are attainable and the command strata does not become ossified.

如果我们必须给中国划成分,我觉得中国是运行在资本主义框架下的一种位高者责重*的封建主义。看起来这个体制在中国管用。我觉得,只要收入最低的那40%人群所抱的期望也同样低,而中间的那40-50%人群所抱的期望可以达到,并且行政命令阶系没有僵化,那么这个体制就将会继续管用下去。

【*译者注:noblesse oblige,直译是“贵族的义务”,出自法国,原意指贵族就要像贵族,负担起道德和精神的责任,高尚是应尽的义务。】

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Mad Hatter wrote: Jan 19th 2011 12:16 GMT

@Doug Pascover

Because of the two party system, our election decisions boil down to “lesser of two evils” rather than the best man for the job.

For example, from a merely hypothetical point of view, if one party was pro-life, even through that party supported tax cuts for the rich, and the other was agnostic about religious beliefs, but believed in punishing bankers for perceived errors, one has a difficult decision to make.

There is no party that is both pro-life and believes in punishing bankers for perceived errors.

So who does one vote for?

回复Doug Pascover

因为这个两党体系,所以我们的选举结果可以归结为“两害相权取其轻者”,而不是选出最适合这项工作的人。

用假设的观点举个例子。若某党反堕胎,而它又支持为富人减税;另一党对宗教信仰持不可知论,但它又坚信银行家们必须为所犯错误接受惩罚。这个时候,就很难做决定了。

没有一个党在反对堕胎的同时,又坚信银行家们必须为所犯错误接受惩罚。

那么这个时候,应该投票给谁?

Our history has been rife with situations where the public has voted against its self interests, because the party that represents our self interests has a small part of its platform that we find unpalatable. After the civil war, many people would not vote Republican, because the Republican party supported equal rights for the freed slaves, even though in those days it also supported greater rights for exploited workers.

So why is there not a third party that fills the gap?

我们的历史总是遇上这样情况:民众们投票反对自己的利益,因为代表我们自己利益的政党里总是有我们无法接受的部分。内战后,因为共和党支持给解放后的奴隶们赋予平等的权利,许多人就不再投票给共和党,虽然当时共和党也同样支持给被剥削的工人们更多权利。

所以,为什么没有第三党来弥补这中间的差距?

Every time a serious possibility of there being a third party arises, the other parties have emphasized the unpalatable issues on its platform, sold the fear...

Fears and beliefs are much more powerful emotions than rational ones when voting decisions are made.

That is what is so amazing about Obama being elected – he did it by inspiring hope, and brought out the best in America, rather than running on a platform of fear.

每次成立第三党的可能性有所抬头时,其他的政党就会强调他们党纲里令人不快的议题,传播贩售恐惧……

做投票决定的时候,恐惧和信仰的力量要比理智的情感强有力得多。

这就是为什么奥巴马当选地如此神奇——他参选是靠鼓舞起希望并激发出美国人最好的一面,而不是靠宣扬恐惧。

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Tzimisces wrote: Jan 19th 2011 2:33 GMT

Meh, there was a time that everyone thought the German Imperial* system was best for economic growth, there was a time everyone thought the Soviet system was best for economic growth, there was a time when everyone thought the Japanese system was best, and not it's time for the Chinese system. The test comes when the citizenry begins to realize there's somewhere to go besides up. The Chinese aren't there yet.

Meh,曾经有段时间人人都认为德意志帝国*的体制最适合经济增长;曾经有段时间人人都认为苏联的体制最适合经济增长;曾经有段时间人人都认为日本的体制最适合经济增长;而现在轮到了中国的体制。当全体公民开始意识到除了增长外还有别的目的地之时,真正的考验才到来。中国人还没到这一步。

【*译者注:德意志帝国,1871年以普鲁士(Preuszligen)王国为中心,通过王朝战争建立的君主立宪制的德意志联邦国家。】

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notforlack wrote: Jan 19th 2011 3:11 GMT

I think the Chinese approach is an attempt to deal with the J-Curve of marketization. (For those unfamiliar, the J-Curve suggests that privitization of the economy necessitates a sharp, but limited period of economic decline prior to a longterm period of gain. Democracy makes reform difficult, then, because either a) politicians won't pursue economic restructuring for fear that the initial economic decline will undermine their popularity or b) voters will roll-back reform in the next election cycle.)

Thus, China's opposition to liberal democracy allows them to evade voter-liability - they can pursue so-called "difficult but necessary" reform without fear of popular condemnation.

The J-Curve is often cited as explanation for the failure of post-Soviet reform - Russians developed a bad taste for democracy based on their particular experience, which was heavily colored by serious economic instability/decline.

我认为中国的方法是对付市场化J曲线效应的一种尝试(为不熟悉的人介绍一下,J曲线表明了经济的私有化必然导致一个急剧但有限的经济衰退期,之后则是长期的增长期。那时候,民主会使得改革很困难,或者是因为A)政客们因为担心初期的经济衰退会破坏他们的支持率而不去追求经济结构调整;或者是因为B)选民们会在下一次选举中把改革投下去)。

因此,中国对自由民主的压制使得他们可以规避对选民的义务——他们可以寻求所谓的“困难而必须”的改革而无需害怕民众的谴责。

J形曲线往往被用来解释苏联解体后改革的失败——俄罗斯人基于他们特别的经历从而对民主制度有着很坏的印象,而严重的经济衰退和不稳定又为此抹了浓重的一笔。

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g cross wrote: Jan 19th 2011 5:04 GMT

@ ccusa: "But instead we get posts challenging us to think of becoming more like China."

引用ccusa所说:“然而,我们却看到了不少挑战我们的帖子,要去考虑我们变得更像中国”

ccusa, to be frank if you really think that M.S. is calling for us to move towards an authoritarian style of government like that in China then you are being completely ridiculous and utterly unreasonable.

Ccusa,坦白地说,如果你真的认为MS【译者注:原文作者】在号召大家转向类似中国那种权威主义类型的政府,那么你真是完全的荒谬可笑外加极度不理智。

M.S.'s point in this blog article was clear: we should not take for granted that the tide of history is on our side, and in particular we need to be willing to adapt our system in order to keep ourselves competitive. How might we adapt it? Read the article: Mr Fukuyama makes it clear that it is specific aspects of democracy *in America* that he thinks are making us less effective, such as our full set of constitutional checks and balances**, and M.S. responds to this by saying "I really have nothing to add to this." which makes it clear that he feels the same way.

MS在本文的观点很明确:我们不应该理所当然地认为历史的潮流是顺着我们这边的,而且我们还要特别地去调整我们的体制从而保证我们的竞争力。我们要怎么调整?看看文章:福山先生阐明了他认为正是“美国”民主制度的某些方面使得我们的效率降低,例如我们宪法规定的全套三权分立**。而MS对此的回应是“我真的没有什么可以再补充的了”,充分说明了他也持同样的观点。

【**译者注:checks and balances 三权分立:立法权、行政权和司法权相互独立、互相制衡。】

Furthermore, M.S. has never come close to saying that we should get rid of our democratic government, but he has on many times talked about the unreasonableness of the Senate. Therefore, if you really want to interpret this piece as being a means of advancing a particular agenda it would make far more sense to conclude that it is advancing his anti-Senate agenda, rather than this completely ridiculous and utterly unreasonable agenda that you are projecting on him that he is against the very notion of democratic government.

而且,MS从来没有说过我们应当摆脱我们的民主制政府,但是他多次提到参议院的无理性。因此,如果你真的想要把本文解读成为推进某项议程的一个手段,那么比起推断成你加在他头上的——他反对民主制政府的概念——这样一个完全荒谬而且极度不理智的议程,推断成他这是为了推进他的反参议院议程,会远远合理得多。

Finally, the primary purpose of these blogs articles is to give us food for thought and something to talk about. If you don't see a point being made explicitly, then rather then concluding that this is because M.S. is too afraid to actually state his point out loud you should consider that it might be because *M.S. HAD NO REAL POINT HE WAS TRYING TO MAKE* and was just offering us some food for thought. Not *everything* needs to advance a specific political agenda.

Sheesh...

最后,这篇博文的首要主旨是给我们提供精神食粮以及谈资。如果你没有读到鲜明的观点,那么与其推断成这是因为MS不敢大声说成自己的观点,还不如认为是因为“MS没有什么实际的观点想要阐述”,他只是给我们提供了精神食粮。不是“所有事物”都要上纲上线都是出于某个政治目的。

切…

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Valdemar_II wrote: Jan 19th 2011 7:54 GMT

@ccusa,

I read your comments with a great deal of interest as it reminded me a lot of discussions I have seen about the "European" vs the "American" economic models. Both are often heralded as superior models, but the evidence for the "American" model is sometimes the higher growth rates achieved in the USA compared to (western) Europe, and that Europe should let go of its extensive social safety net, short working hours, restrictive regulation, etc. To which the reply is often - "but we value other things than just economic growth". I may misunderstand, but in your argument I see the China playing the role of the USA (economic growth is the measure of success) and the USA the role of Europe (but we value some things too highly to sacrifice them for growth).

回复ccusa,

我兴趣盎然地读了你的评论,因为这让我回忆起了所见过的许多关于“欧洲”经济模式vs“美国”经济模式的讨论。两者都常常被宣传成是更高级的模式,然而利于美国模式的证据常是说,美国比起(西部)欧洲有更高的增长速率,同时欧洲应该放开他们成本巨大的社会保险网络、短工时制、限制性规定,等等。对这些的回应也很常见——“但是比起单纯的经济增长,我们更珍视其他事情”。也许我理解有错,但是从你的说法来看,我觉得中国正在扮演美国的角色(经济增长是成功的标尺)而美国演了欧洲的角色(我们非常珍视某些事物,所以不能为了经济牺牲它们)。

So what I hear M.S. say is not "become like China" but just highlighting that from a competitiveness point of view, it is not clear that the American (or any other liberal democratic) model is the best for delivering that. Nor is it clear that the Chinese model is unsustainable, an opinion that he subscribes to many Americans (and seems to be supported by some posters here).

所以,我所听到MS所说的并不是“变得更像中国”,而仅仅是强调从竞争的观点看,目前还不能明确说美国(或者其他自由民主国家)的模式是最有竞争力的。同样也不能明确说中国模式就不可持久,这个观点他赞同许多美国人(而且看起来这里很多帖子也支持)。

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M.S. (The Economist) wrote: Jan 19th 2011 8:06 GMT

【译者注:这是原文作者MS】

Incidentally, the notion that I somehow admire the Chinese system because I have an affection for authoritarianism and wish the American system were more like the Chinese one is ludicrous and frankly insulting. The point Mr Fukuyama makes is fairly simple, but may be too subtle for some here. It is that the Chinese single-party corporate-statist capitalist system is not going to simply collapse and affirm the superiority of liberal democracy. My version of this point is that it may well be that the Chinese system is a stable modern model of governance, that its lifetime is no more limited than that of our own model of governance. This is what's scary about it. That system is brutally repressive towards the small minority of people who engage in open dissent. It has no or few procedural guarantees of justice under law, and is in general much more unfair to the powerless than our own system -- not that the deck is equally stacked in our system either. What this looks like, to me, is a version of what people in America *thought* the competition with the USSR looked like in 1960: they seemed to have an equally stable system that was matching or beating ours in economic growth. It turned out this was a mirage because their economic system hit its limits at a pretty low level of development and started to decay. The bright side of competition with China is that they're not really exporting their system, and couldn't because it's rooted in a 2000-year-old cultural and governing tradition that can't be replicated outside East Asia, if anywhere. The dark side is that there's no guarantee whatsoever that their economic system will hit its limits or start to fail before ours does, and, while some other source of instability may come along and lay bare strategic weaknesses in repressive authoritarianism, it also might not. And just as conservatives in 1960 worried that Soviet repressive authoritarianism might beat the West because of its inherent strengths, and argued that America had to band together and act decisively to compete, I have the same worries about China. I think a lot of the things the West did while banding together to compete with the USSR were very positive and beneficial, and I'd like to see more of the same proactive willingness to adapt to reality more in evidence today.

顺带提一下,说我莫名其妙地赞赏中国的体制是由于我深爱着权威主义并且希望美国的体制能变得更像中国,这个说法简直是无稽之谈而且是赤裸裸的人身攻击。福山先生的观点很简单,但是对这里的某些人来说也许太微妙了。这观点就是说,中国的一党制国家资本主义体制并不会简简单单地就崩溃了并且还证实了自由民主制度的优越性。而我的观点是,中国的体制很可能是一种稳定的现代政府模式,它的生命周期不会短于我们自己的政府模式。这才是恐慌的所在。这个体系残酷地压迫公开持不同政见的少数群体。它并没有或者极少法制下的程序性地对正义的保障;而且总体而言,对于无权者,它比我们的体系更加不公平得多——这倒不是说我们的体系也是同样地舞弊。对我来说,这看起来像是美国人在1960年时所想的与苏联竞争的翻版:他们看起来有着一个同样稳定的体制,这个体制在经济增速上能够

匹敌于甚至超过于我们。结果却证明这只是个海市蜃楼,因为他们的经济体制只到了相当低的发展程度就到极限了,然后开始了衰退。和中国的竞争,好的一面在于他们没有真正地去输出他们的体制*;他们也无法输出,因为这个体制是根植于2000年之久的文化以及治理传统,而这在东亚以外任何地方都不可能被复制。而坏的一面是根本无法保证他们的经济体制会比我们的更早到达极限或者走向失败;并且,当其他的压迫性权威主义会出现另一些不稳定来源并暴露出战略性的弱点之时,中国可能也不会有。此外,正如同1960年保守派们担心苏联的压迫性权威主义有可能靠固有内在的力量击败西方,因而主张美国应该团结一致果断行动以作竞争,我也对中国有同样的担心。我想起了西方团结一致与苏联竞争时的许多作为都是非常积极又有益的,而我很期望在今天能看到更多同样的积极意愿能显著地转为现实。

【*译者注:西方世界一直有着对中国“输出”意识形态的担心,当年的“输出革命”给西方留下了深刻印象,即使是无意识的输出也是非常警惕】

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JGradus wrote: Jan 19th 2011 1:27 GMT

@Sparkleby

I must agree with your analysis about revolutions. I suspect that Americans have a romantic view of revolutions because that is what they incorrectly call their war of independence (which was of course a great success).

It took France roughly a 100 years from the revolution to actually getting some sort of real democracy, with a LOT of blood flowing in between, and even seeing a restoration of the ancien regime they toppled.

Sometime they work, sometime they don't, but they are almost always very messy.

回复Sparkleby

我必须同意你对革命的分析。我怀疑美国人对革命抱有一种浪漫的看法,因为这就是他们对独立战争的错误称呼(当然独立战争是伟大的成功)。

法国从革命到实际建立起真正的民主制度花了大概100年,这之间流淌着“巨量”的鲜血,甚至中间还有他们所推翻的王朝制度复辟。

它们有时候管用,有时候又不管用,但是绝大多数时候它们都非常混乱。

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JShell wrote: Jan 19th 2011 8:02 GMT

The central problem is greed in the United States. Reaganism has political support because it has become code for tax cuts to rich folks, who are interested in funding such talk. Reagan brought a 78% top marginal tax rate on the rich down to 28%. Note that "tax uncertainty" in late 2010 was code for the uncertainty that top marginal tax rates might rise. Of course, this might be complicated by the fact that the cost of living is much higher in New York than it is in Kentucky, so that the top tax rates hurt more in the big apple than they do in Appalachia. But still, Americans are too dependent on/afraid of their wealthier bosses/employers/investors to be able to stand up to the shakedown of the poor by the rich. . . along with the general liquidation of US ecosystem services. . . soon we'll have no groundwater, no clean riverwater, no topsoil, no domestic fisheries, and very little oil left at home. Then what? Who knows. I think the US empire will collapse under the weight of its own greed--

Meanwhile, China has at least been putting some limits on how rich its executives get . . . or at least the centralization of wealth is among individuals who want to see their country succeed as part of their own success.

同意美国的核心问题。里根主义*获得政治支持是因为它变成对有钱家伙们减税的代号,而他们很乐意资助这样的讨论。里根把对富人的最高达到78%边际税率**降到了28%。注意,2010年末的“税率不确定”就是作为代号,表示有可能提高最高边际税率的不确定性。当然这可能是很难解的,毕竟在纽约的生活成本比在肯塔基高得多这是事实,所以最高税率在魔都***比在阿巴拉契亚更伤人。尽管如此,但美国人太依赖于/担心他们富有的老板们/雇主们/投资者们,以至不能够反抗富人对穷人的敲诈……伴随而来的是美国生态系统服务的大清算……很快,我们就会没有地下水,没有干净的地表水,没有表层土,没有国内的渔业,并且国内只有极少的石油。然后呢?谁知道啊。我想美利坚帝国会被自己的贪婪压到崩溃。

【*译者注:里根主义,主要内容是与苏联争夺第三世界。认为苏联在70年代势力伸展过长,内外交困,难以巩固已经取得的进展。美国应准备以“低烈度战争”阻止和反击苏联在第三世界对美国利益的威胁,遏制它的扩张主义,把它取得的政治和军事进展推回去;鼓励第三世界亲美右翼政府的活动,加强对其他第三世界国家和抗苏武装的经济、军事援助,稳定局势

**边际税率:就是征税对象数额的增量中税额所占的比率。以超额累进的个人所得举例:免征额为 2000元,那么2000元以下的收入免税,边际税率就为0。当一个人月收入达到2200元的时候时,相比起2000元增量为200元,按照适用税率应缴纳10元的税,此时边际税率就是10元÷200元=5%

***美国魔都,原文是the big apple,直译是大苹果,这是美国人对纽约的昵称。据说典故是出自早期的爵士乐手们把美国的各个城市描绘成挂在树上的一只只苹果.很自然地纽约就称为大苹果。阿巴拉契亚是美国东部的山区。】

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ObsTheTimes wrote: Jan 20th 2011 3:19 GMT

I couldn't agree more. Rather its a wonder why anyone would disagree. America and Europe have long championed the almost divine legitimacy of democracy. Actually, outside of Europe (really read Scandinavia)where populations are divvied up into small racially & spiritually homogeneous highly educated portions, democracy is a failure.

Now the democratic system is starting to fester in America as well. Here gridlock rules and everybody and their brother wants a voice heard.

But democracy's biggest failure has occurred in India which is sycophantically flattered by the west as a beacon of democracy. Yes, things are finally moving there, but compare this movement with the blazing speed with which China is moving half a billion people out of poverty.

Would you rather have a pretty label or actually do something for your population? Take your pick.

我同意得不能再同意了。更确切地说是我还奇怪怎么会有人不同意。美国和欧洲长期以来都在拥护民主制度的神圣正义性。实际上,在欧洲(认真学一下斯堪的纳维亚半岛)之外,在那些人们被按种族、信仰、受教育程度划分成一个个小部分的地方,民主制度就是个杯具。

如今,民主制体系已经在美国也开始腐化了。这里政治陷入僵局而很多很多人都希望声音被听见。

但是,民主制度最大的杯具还是在印度,他们被西方奉承为民主制度的灯塔。是的,印度的确是有点进步,但是比一比中国那边?中国以耀眼的速度前进,让五亿人脱贫。

你是宁愿被贴一张漂亮的标签纸,还是让你的人民能实际受益?

选一个吧。

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Anjin-San wrote: Jan 19th 2011 4:47 GMT

@ccusa

Recognizing, as you asked for, the substance of your argument, I still disagree because you are overlooking an important fact: Unlimited pursuit of individual liberties often results in those liberties interfering with each other, reducing the whole society into a gridlock of conflicting liberties and interests (in short, NIMBYism).

In short, maximizing liberties of the individual conflicts with maximizing liberties of a society as a whole. Even the Americans recognize the need for such restriction of individual liberty in some cases where its effect on maximizing the sum total of the liberties is readily apparent (example: Traffic lights).

The downside of the Chinese Method is altogether too often people are penalized for being in the wrong place at the wrong time...

回复ccusa

鉴于你要求了,我确认了你争论的主旨,仍然不同意。因为你忽视了一个重要的事实:对个人自由无限制的追求常常导致他们的自由和他人的冲突,削弱了整个社会导致了自由和利益相互冲突的僵局中(简而言之,邻避主义*)

再简而言之,最大化的个人自由,和整体社会的最大自由相冲突。即便是美国人也认识到了在某些情况下对个人自由有这样的制约是必要的,它们对总体自由的最大化效果显而易见(例如交通信号灯)。

中国方法的不利之处在于,总体上人们太多地因为在错误的时间处在错误的地点而受罚……

【*译者注:邻避主义,NIMBY,not in my backyard,别在我的后院。强烈反对在自己住处附近设立任何有危险性、不好看或有其他不宜情形之事物(如监狱、焚化炉或无家人收容所等)】

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M.S. (The Economist) wrote: Jan 19th 2011 7:54 GMT

ccusa, I find your stance confusing. You believe that what's critical and non-negotiable in the American system is that you need the consent of the governed to pass laws. ObamaCare is law. The US's democratic legislature crafted it and approved it, and our democratically elected president signed it into law. It is unlikely to be repealed because its opponents are unable, through our democratic mechanisms, to put together the legislative pieces they would need to repeal it. (This is in large measure because repealing ObamaCare would do things that most Americans don't like, such as making it once again impossible for people with prior medical conditions to get insurance and increasing the deficit.)

In what sense is arguing for the merits of ObamaCare anti-democratic?

Ccusa啊,我发现你的立场很混乱啊。你认为在美国的体制里最关键和不能妥协的是你需要有“被统治者的同意”*,立法才能通过。“奥巴马医改案”**是法律了。美国的民主制立法机关起草并批准了它,然后我们民主选举出来的总统把它签署成了法律。它不太可能会被撤销,因为它的对立者不能通过我们的民主机制,把所需要的零零散散的立法所需的部件整合起来以便废除它。(这很大程度上是因为废除奥巴马医改案的过程会做出大多数美国人都不喜欢的一些行为,例如再次使得人们在现有的医疗条件下不可能获得保险,并且增加财政赤字)

你究竟凭什么来争论说“奥巴马医改案”是反民主制的?

【*译者注:consent of the governed,被统治者的同意,西方社会契约的重要内容。出自John Locke约翰洛克,主张政府只有在取得被统治者的同意,其统治才有正当性。

** “奥巴马医改案” ObamaCare,奥巴马上台后推行的医改政策,2010年以微弱优势通过成法案,但接下来又多次被判违宪、被共和党控制的众议院投票要求废除等;然而参议院仍在民主党控制中,奥巴马也握有总统签署权。医改问题双方仍在拉锯中,属于美国国内政治的焦点。

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无语了,稍微看点历史书的人都知道,历史永远无法终结。

这样的书,被些商家炒作,居然能炒上天去。可想而知现在的人多么容易受蛊惑