超级军网美国将军称F-35机动性不比F-16战机差
来源：百度文库 编辑：超级军网 时间：2024/04/29 11:56:48
据英国《飞行国际》2008年9月22日报道 洛克希德·马丁公司和美国防部正在回击最近针对F-35联合攻击战斗机基本作战能力的一批批评，并怀疑这些批评背后隐藏的动机。
F-35联合项目办公室首席执行官Charles Davis将军称，近日一些零散的、公开的“不真实报道”已经对F-35项目构成了显著的商业威胁。这些抨击性公开报道的频率、时机和“完全”错误的内容使得Davis怀疑其是不公正的行径。
Davis在9月19日答记者问时称这些抨击的背后一定隐藏着某种不可告人的动机。他没有明确指出抨击的来源，仅表示有“金钱介入和公司介入”。
早在今年7月，Davis就波音公司公开散布有关F-35的谎言和半真实报道提出控告，他认为波音公司这样做的目的在于提高F/A-18E/F“超级大黄蜂”(Super Hornet)的国际销售量。
近期，被称之为F-16战斗机概念之父的Pierre Sprey撰写文章称F-35战斗机将是空气动力“狗”，其在作战中会输给它将要取代的战斗机。Davis回应称F-35战斗机的转弯速度和机动性与F-16战斗机相比没有区别，但F-35具有隐身能力和更先进的传感器融合性能。
(中国航空工业发展研究中心 苏海军)据英国《飞行国际》2008年9月22日报道 洛克希德·马丁公司和美国防部正在回击最近针对F-35联合攻击战斗机基本作战能力的一批批评，并怀疑这些批评背后隐藏的动机。
F-35联合项目办公室首席执行官Charles Davis将军称，近日一些零散的、公开的“不真实报道”已经对F-35项目构成了显著的商业威胁。这些抨击性公开报道的频率、时机和“完全”错误的内容使得Davis怀疑其是不公正的行径。
Davis在9月19日答记者问时称这些抨击的背后一定隐藏着某种不可告人的动机。他没有明确指出抨击的来源，仅表示有“金钱介入和公司介入”。
早在今年7月，Davis就波音公司公开散布有关F-35的谎言和半真实报道提出控告，他认为波音公司这样做的目的在于提高F/A-18E/F“超级大黄蜂”(Super Hornet)的国际销售量。
近期，被称之为F-16战斗机概念之父的Pierre Sprey撰写文章称F-35战斗机将是空气动力“狗”，其在作战中会输给它将要取代的战斗机。Davis回应称F-35战斗机的转弯速度和机动性与F-16战斗机相比没有区别，但F-35具有隐身能力和更先进的传感器融合性能。
(中国航空工业发展研究中心 苏海军)
F-35联合项目办公室首席执行官Charles Davis将军称，近日一些零散的、公开的“不真实报道”已经对F-35项目构成了显著的商业威胁。这些抨击性公开报道的频率、时机和“完全”错误的内容使得Davis怀疑其是不公正的行径。
Davis在9月19日答记者问时称这些抨击的背后一定隐藏着某种不可告人的动机。他没有明确指出抨击的来源，仅表示有“金钱介入和公司介入”。
早在今年7月，Davis就波音公司公开散布有关F-35的谎言和半真实报道提出控告，他认为波音公司这样做的目的在于提高F/A-18E/F“超级大黄蜂”(Super Hornet)的国际销售量。
近期，被称之为F-16战斗机概念之父的Pierre Sprey撰写文章称F-35战斗机将是空气动力“狗”，其在作战中会输给它将要取代的战斗机。Davis回应称F-35战斗机的转弯速度和机动性与F-16战斗机相比没有区别，但F-35具有隐身能力和更先进的传感器融合性能。
(中国航空工业发展研究中心 苏海军)据英国《飞行国际》2008年9月22日报道 洛克希德·马丁公司和美国防部正在回击最近针对F-35联合攻击战斗机基本作战能力的一批批评，并怀疑这些批评背后隐藏的动机。
F-35联合项目办公室首席执行官Charles Davis将军称，近日一些零散的、公开的“不真实报道”已经对F-35项目构成了显著的商业威胁。这些抨击性公开报道的频率、时机和“完全”错误的内容使得Davis怀疑其是不公正的行径。
Davis在9月19日答记者问时称这些抨击的背后一定隐藏着某种不可告人的动机。他没有明确指出抨击的来源，仅表示有“金钱介入和公司介入”。
早在今年7月，Davis就波音公司公开散布有关F-35的谎言和半真实报道提出控告，他认为波音公司这样做的目的在于提高F/A-18E/F“超级大黄蜂”(Super Hornet)的国际销售量。
近期，被称之为F-16战斗机概念之父的Pierre Sprey撰写文章称F-35战斗机将是空气动力“狗”，其在作战中会输给它将要取代的战斗机。Davis回应称F-35战斗机的转弯速度和机动性与F-16战斗机相比没有区别，但F-35具有隐身能力和更先进的传感器融合性能。
(中国航空工业发展研究中心 苏海军)
我们的八爷机动性也不比歼-7II差
果然不能对JSF的格斗性能有太高期望哈，仅仅是F-16水平。
F-16的机动性对付三代没问题，但对双风、新35显然已经力不从心了。
F-16的机动性对付三代没问题，但对双风、新35显然已经力不从心了。
看看F-35的标准武器配置两枚AIM-120加两颗JDAM,就知道这家伙的对空作战能力也就是偷袭或自卫而已,当然了这世上能躲过两枚AIM-120D的机型一只手都能数得过来
]]
原帖由 黑刀 于 2008-9-26 10:57 发表
看看F-35的标准武器配置两枚AIM-120加两颗JDAM,就知道这家伙的对空作战能力也就是偷袭或自卫而已,当然了这世上能躲过两枚AIM-120D的机型一只手都能数得过来
这要看它升空的任务是啥了。如果为了空优，不会如此挂载吧。
毕竟，相对于翼下挂满蛋蛋的三代机来说，隐形是无可比拟的第一优势。
问题是 哪个版本的 f16.
早先试飞的报道不是说它加速优秀,操作灵敏么,现在怎么改口叫不比爱抚石榴差了,应该比爱抚石榴更好才对啊.....:D
更正一下
發射後鎖定....^^
發射後鎖定....^^
原帖由 朋友a 于 2008-9-26 11:05 发表
三代改实战中毕竟是要有外挂的，性能会比理想状态有所下降。而F35服役时，锁定后发射格斗弹应该也搞成了，这些都增加了F35在格斗中的胜算。
如果是大机群空战，F35显然会全空战武装上阵，甚至可能携带2~4枚外挂。 ...
原帖由 海客 于 2008-9-26 11:10 发表
这要看它升空的任务是啥了。如果为了空优，不会如此挂载吧。
毕竟，相对于翼下挂满蛋蛋的三代机来说，隐形是无可比拟的第一优势。
确实是这样，35能在150km外发现你，而你在50km处还不一定能发现35
F-35如果没有了低可探测性能
估计还真不如Ｆ－１８ＥＦ
估计还真不如Ｆ－１８ＥＦ
原帖由 壁画 于 2008-9-26 11:42 发表
早先试飞的报道不是说它加速优秀,操作灵敏么,现在怎么改口叫不比爱抚石榴差了,应该比爱抚石榴更好才对啊.....:D
当年美国对F22机动性的评价也是不比F16差……
看来问题不是35如何，而是我们一直小看16了。
;P ;P ;P ;P ;P ;P
;P ;P ;P ;P ;P ;P
F-35设计出来就不是用来”狗斗“的
原帖由 不玩CS的T 于 2008-9-26 12:13 发表
看来问题不是35如何，而是我们一直小看16了。
;P ;P ;P ;P ;P ;P
MS我们一直都没有小看16啊，都认为它是三代轻型王啊。:o
原帖由 爱军习武 于 2008-9-26 12:05 发表
F-35如果没有了低可探测性能
估计还真不如Ｆ－１８ＥＦ
以俺菜鸟一管之见，四代机还真用不着非要跟三代比机动性等等，只要差不多即可。
已知的三件事情：
1.F-35A无加力平飞，追踪的F-16需开加力跟上
2.F-35带5000lbs负载以军用推力爬升，空载的F-16仍需间歇性开加力（breif ab）才能跟上http://calf.cn/viewthread.php?ti ... page%3D1&page=3。
3.F-16已经是三代加速爬升的顶尖水准。
这足以说明F-35的飞行性能是什么水准了，绝对不会屑于和三代座一个板凳的。
1.F-35A无加力平飞，追踪的F-16需开加力跟上
2.F-35带5000lbs负载以军用推力爬升，空载的F-16仍需间歇性开加力（breif ab）才能跟上http://calf.cn/viewthread.php?ti ... page%3D1&page=3。
3.F-16已经是三代加速爬升的顶尖水准。
这足以说明F-35的飞行性能是什么水准了，绝对不会屑于和三代座一个板凳的。
关于LM对网上流言的回击：
虽然F-35被诬蔑成“dog”，但LM称F-35是“racehorse”。
在极速、加速性、作战半径等方面，F-35远优于（outperforme）所有三代机。
原文：
Setting the Record Straight on F-35
FORT WORTH, Texas, September 19th, 2008 -- U.S. Air Force analyses show the Lockheed Martin [NYSE: LMT] F-35 Lightning II is at least 400 percent more effective in air-to-air combat capability than the best fighters currently available in the international market.
The Air Force's standard air-to-air engagement analysis model, also used by allied air forces to assess air-combat performance, pitted the 5th generation F-35 against all advanced 4th generation fighters in a variety of simulated scenarios. The results were clear: the F-35 outperformed the most highly evolved fighters in aerial combat by significant margins.
"In all F-35 Program Office and U.S. Air Force air-to-air combat effectiveness analysis to date, the F-35 enjoys a significant Combat Loss Exchange Ratio advantage over the current and future air-to-air threats, to include Sukhois," said Maj. Gen. Charles R. Davis, F-35 program executive officer.
Recent claims that Russian fighters defeated F-35s in a Hawaii-based simulated combat exercise are untrue, according to Maj. Gen. Davis.
"The reports are completely false and misleading and have absolutely no basis in fact," Maj. Gen. Davis said. "The August 2008 Pacific Vision Wargame that has been referenced recently in the media did not even address air-to-air combat effectiveness. The F-35 is required to be able to effectively defeat current and projected air-to-air threats. All available information, at the highest classification, indicates that F-35 is effectively meeting these aggressive operational challenges."
The Pacific Vision Wargame was a table-top exercise designed to assess basing and force-structure vulnerabilities, and did not include air-to-air combat exercises or any comparisons of different aircraft platforms.
Other erroneous allegations about the program were recently made in a letter distributed and written by industry-watchers Winston Wheeler and Pierre Sprey.
"It's not clear why they attacked the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) program," said Tom Burbage, Lockheed Martin executive vice president of F-35 program integration. "It is clear they don't understand the underlying requirements of the F-35 program, the capabilities needed to meet those requirements or the real programmatic performance of the JSF team."
Here are the facts:
The F-35 is a racehorse, not a "dog," as Wheeler/Sprey suggest. In stealth combat configuration, the F-35 aerodynamically outperforms all other combat-configured 4th generation aircraft in top-end speed, loiter, subsonic acceleration and combat radius. This allows unprecedented "see/shoot first" and combat radius advantages.
The high thrust-to-weight ratios of the lightweight fighter program Wheeler/Sprey recall from 30 years ago did not take into consideration combat-range fuel, sensors or armament, which dramatically alter wing loading, thrust-to-weight ratios and maneuverability. We do consider all of this in today's fighters.
The F-35 has the most powerful engine ever installed in a fighter, with thrust equivalent to both engines today in Eurofighter or F/A-18 aircraft. The conventional version of the F-35 has 9g capability and matches the turn rates of the F-16 and F/A-18. More importantly, in a combat load, with all fuel, targeting sensor pods and weapons carried internally, the F-35's aerodynamic performance far exceeds all legacy aircraft equipped with a similar capability.
When the threat situation diminishes so that it is safe for legacy aircraft to participate in the fight, the F-35 can also carry ordnance on six external wing stations in addition to its four internal stations.
Other important facts:
External weapon clearance is part of the current F-35 test program.
The government has already proven that no other aircraft can survive against the 5th generation stealth that only the F-22 and the F-35 possess; it is impossible to add this stealth to fourth-generation fighters.
The F-35's data collection, integration and information sharing capabilities will transform the battlespace of the future and will redefine the close air support mission. The F-35 is specifically designed to take advantage of lessons learned from the F-117 stealth aircraft. Unlike the F-117, the ability to share tactically important information is built into the F-35, along with stealth.
F-35 is developing, testing, and fielding mature software years ahead of legacy programs, further reducing development risk. The F-35's advanced software, already flying on two test aircraft with remarkable stability, is demonstrating the advantages of developing highly-common, tri-variant aircraft. The software developed span the entire aircraft and support systems including the aircraft itself, logistics systems, flight and maintenance trainers, maintenance information system and flight-test instrumentation.
Rather than relying exclusively on flight testing, the F-35 is retiring development risk through the most comprehensive laboratories, sensor test beds, and integrated full-fusion flying test bed ever created for an aircraft program. Representing only 25% of our verification plans, still the F-35's flight test program is comparable in hours to the combined flight test programs of the three primary U.S. aircraft it will replace.
The F-35 is one aircraft program designed to replace many different types of aircraft around the world - F-16, F/A-18, F-117, A-10, AV-8B, Sea Harrier, GR.7, F-111 and Tornado - flown by 14 air forces.
In addition to 19 developmental test aircraft, the F-35 is producing 20 fully instrumented, production-configured operational test aircraft. No program in history has employed this many test vehicles.
"Simply put, advanced stealth and sensor fusion allow the F-35 pilot to see, target and destroy the adversary and strategic targets in a very high surface-to-air threat scenario, and deal with air threats intent on denying access -- all before the F-35 is ever detected, then return safely to do it again," said Burbage.
The F-35 is a supersonic, multi-role, 5th generation stealth fighter. Three F-35 variants derived from a common design, developed together and using the same sustainment infrastructure worldwide will replace at least 13 types of aircraft for 11 nations initially, making the Lightning II the most cost-effective fighter program in history. Two F-35s have entered flight test, two are in ground test, and 17 are in various stages of assembly, including the first two production-model jets scheduled for delivery to the U.S. Air Force in 2010.
Headquartered in Bethesda, Md., Lockheed Martin is a global security company that employs about 140,000 people worldwide and is principally engaged in the research, design, development, manufacture, integration and sustainment of advanced technology systems, products and services. The corporation reported 2007 sales of $41.9 billion.
F-35 and Lightning II are trademarks of Lockheed Martin Corporation.
虽然F-35被诬蔑成“dog”，但LM称F-35是“racehorse”。
在极速、加速性、作战半径等方面，F-35远优于（outperforme）所有三代机。
原文：
Setting the Record Straight on F-35
FORT WORTH, Texas, September 19th, 2008 -- U.S. Air Force analyses show the Lockheed Martin [NYSE: LMT] F-35 Lightning II is at least 400 percent more effective in air-to-air combat capability than the best fighters currently available in the international market.
The Air Force's standard air-to-air engagement analysis model, also used by allied air forces to assess air-combat performance, pitted the 5th generation F-35 against all advanced 4th generation fighters in a variety of simulated scenarios. The results were clear: the F-35 outperformed the most highly evolved fighters in aerial combat by significant margins.
"In all F-35 Program Office and U.S. Air Force air-to-air combat effectiveness analysis to date, the F-35 enjoys a significant Combat Loss Exchange Ratio advantage over the current and future air-to-air threats, to include Sukhois," said Maj. Gen. Charles R. Davis, F-35 program executive officer.
Recent claims that Russian fighters defeated F-35s in a Hawaii-based simulated combat exercise are untrue, according to Maj. Gen. Davis.
"The reports are completely false and misleading and have absolutely no basis in fact," Maj. Gen. Davis said. "The August 2008 Pacific Vision Wargame that has been referenced recently in the media did not even address air-to-air combat effectiveness. The F-35 is required to be able to effectively defeat current and projected air-to-air threats. All available information, at the highest classification, indicates that F-35 is effectively meeting these aggressive operational challenges."
The Pacific Vision Wargame was a table-top exercise designed to assess basing and force-structure vulnerabilities, and did not include air-to-air combat exercises or any comparisons of different aircraft platforms.
Other erroneous allegations about the program were recently made in a letter distributed and written by industry-watchers Winston Wheeler and Pierre Sprey.
"It's not clear why they attacked the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) program," said Tom Burbage, Lockheed Martin executive vice president of F-35 program integration. "It is clear they don't understand the underlying requirements of the F-35 program, the capabilities needed to meet those requirements or the real programmatic performance of the JSF team."
Here are the facts:
The F-35 is a racehorse, not a "dog," as Wheeler/Sprey suggest. In stealth combat configuration, the F-35 aerodynamically outperforms all other combat-configured 4th generation aircraft in top-end speed, loiter, subsonic acceleration and combat radius. This allows unprecedented "see/shoot first" and combat radius advantages.
The high thrust-to-weight ratios of the lightweight fighter program Wheeler/Sprey recall from 30 years ago did not take into consideration combat-range fuel, sensors or armament, which dramatically alter wing loading, thrust-to-weight ratios and maneuverability. We do consider all of this in today's fighters.
The F-35 has the most powerful engine ever installed in a fighter, with thrust equivalent to both engines today in Eurofighter or F/A-18 aircraft. The conventional version of the F-35 has 9g capability and matches the turn rates of the F-16 and F/A-18. More importantly, in a combat load, with all fuel, targeting sensor pods and weapons carried internally, the F-35's aerodynamic performance far exceeds all legacy aircraft equipped with a similar capability.
When the threat situation diminishes so that it is safe for legacy aircraft to participate in the fight, the F-35 can also carry ordnance on six external wing stations in addition to its four internal stations.
Other important facts:
External weapon clearance is part of the current F-35 test program.
The government has already proven that no other aircraft can survive against the 5th generation stealth that only the F-22 and the F-35 possess; it is impossible to add this stealth to fourth-generation fighters.
The F-35's data collection, integration and information sharing capabilities will transform the battlespace of the future and will redefine the close air support mission. The F-35 is specifically designed to take advantage of lessons learned from the F-117 stealth aircraft. Unlike the F-117, the ability to share tactically important information is built into the F-35, along with stealth.
F-35 is developing, testing, and fielding mature software years ahead of legacy programs, further reducing development risk. The F-35's advanced software, already flying on two test aircraft with remarkable stability, is demonstrating the advantages of developing highly-common, tri-variant aircraft. The software developed span the entire aircraft and support systems including the aircraft itself, logistics systems, flight and maintenance trainers, maintenance information system and flight-test instrumentation.
Rather than relying exclusively on flight testing, the F-35 is retiring development risk through the most comprehensive laboratories, sensor test beds, and integrated full-fusion flying test bed ever created for an aircraft program. Representing only 25% of our verification plans, still the F-35's flight test program is comparable in hours to the combined flight test programs of the three primary U.S. aircraft it will replace.
The F-35 is one aircraft program designed to replace many different types of aircraft around the world - F-16, F/A-18, F-117, A-10, AV-8B, Sea Harrier, GR.7, F-111 and Tornado - flown by 14 air forces.
In addition to 19 developmental test aircraft, the F-35 is producing 20 fully instrumented, production-configured operational test aircraft. No program in history has employed this many test vehicles.
"Simply put, advanced stealth and sensor fusion allow the F-35 pilot to see, target and destroy the adversary and strategic targets in a very high surface-to-air threat scenario, and deal with air threats intent on denying access -- all before the F-35 is ever detected, then return safely to do it again," said Burbage.
The F-35 is a supersonic, multi-role, 5th generation stealth fighter. Three F-35 variants derived from a common design, developed together and using the same sustainment infrastructure worldwide will replace at least 13 types of aircraft for 11 nations initially, making the Lightning II the most cost-effective fighter program in history. Two F-35s have entered flight test, two are in ground test, and 17 are in various stages of assembly, including the first two production-model jets scheduled for delivery to the U.S. Air Force in 2010.
Headquartered in Bethesda, Md., Lockheed Martin is a global security company that employs about 140,000 people worldwide and is principally engaged in the research, design, development, manufacture, integration and sustainment of advanced technology systems, products and services. The corporation reported 2007 sales of $41.9 billion.
F-35 and Lightning II are trademarks of Lockheed Martin Corporation.
]]
Pierre Sprey的原文谁有？
FC1都不止M1.6:Q
想象35用的是什么档次的发动机，FC1又用的是什么档次的发动机:L
原帖由 SSJ100 于 2008-9-26 13:59 发表
想象35用的是什么档次的发动机，FC1又用的是什么档次的发动机:L
很难想象MIG-25的发动机比F-119牛B。
很难想象说F-35不如上一代的F-16,地位是基本一样的.美帝又不是钱多了没事干.
不差，但也没有明显优势。
不但不差，低速机动性能更好，比18E大虫还好。:D
当然啦，因为飞行性能没有达到ufo水准，战机黑手党的某些跳梁小丑就坐不住了。
原帖由 zwz 于 2008-9-26 21:23 发表
当然啦，因为飞行性能没有达到ufo水准，战机黑手党的某些跳梁小丑就坐不住了。
战斗机黑手党也挺奇怪的，他们最初想要的F-16是纯粹的昼间格斗战斗机，现在的F-16还是那个壳，但是内容完全两样的……
波依德在YF-16發展到F-16A時
就已經不承認這是他設計的戰機了
如果他看到BLOCK60那種搞法
可能會從墳墓裡跳出來砍人
現在的F-16早就跟黑手黨的理想相差很遠了
就已經不承認這是他設計的戰機了
如果他看到BLOCK60那種搞法
可能會從墳墓裡跳出來砍人
現在的F-16早就跟黑手黨的理想相差很遠了
原帖由 dark_knight 于 2008-9-26 21:33 发表
战斗机黑手党也挺奇怪的，他们最初想要的F-16是纯粹的昼间格斗战斗机，现在的F-16还是那个壳，但是内容完全两样的……
黑手党就是美国神棍而已.
K ao, 西方自由媒体反驳时也来
Davis在9月19日答记者问时称这些抨击的背后一定隐藏着某种不可告人的动机。他没有明确指出抨击的来源，仅表示有“金钱介入和公司介入”。
这个一套言词了~~~~~~~~~~
Davis在9月19日答记者问时称这些抨击的背后一定隐藏着某种不可告人的动机。他没有明确指出抨击的来源，仅表示有“金钱介入和公司介入”。
这个一套言词了~~~~~~~~~~
原帖由 kc45b 于 2008-9-28 20:43 发表
黑手党就是美国神棍而已.
经典:D
原帖由 SSJ100 于 2008-9-26 13:59 发表
想象35用的是什么档次的发动机，FC1又用的是什么档次的发动机:L
但是FC1又小又轻又苗条.
据说F135现在推力为43000磅/190KN左右.
美国做过取消F35项目,发展其它机型的研究.
研究结果当然是保留F35最合适.
但是似乎说明F35的3军通用要求还是很困难,这容易导致集各种短板于一身.
研究结果当然是保留F35最合适.
但是似乎说明F35的3军通用要求还是很困难,这容易导致集各种短板于一身.
因为F-16是洛马的，估计是洛马还指望用F-16赚点剩余价值才这么说;P ;P ;P
原帖由 HUYOU 于 2008-9-28 22:01 发表
因为F-16是洛马的，估计是洛马还指望用F-16赚点剩余价值才这么说;P ;P ;P
资本家的罪恶目的又被你揭穿了.
原帖由 kc45b 于 2008-9-28 21:40 发表
美国做过取消F35项目,发展其它机型的研究.
研究结果当然是保留F35最合适.
但是似乎说明F35的3军通用要求还是很困难,这容易导致集各种短板于一身.
美国历来是各种各样的预案都可能有
原帖由 dark_knight 于 2008-9-28 22:54 发表
美国历来是各种各样的预案都可能有
至少这个研究说明了,现有非隐身战斗机依靠改进,无法和F35对抗.
没事，搞好战前动员，给飞飞们洗洗脑，敌人不可怕，决定胜利是人不是武器，只要我们在战略上藐视敌人，我们就可以战无不胜。:D
人家说的很好，既然不比16差，也没说好，如果是视距内对打，也是没有多少优势，但视距外就难讲了。