超级军网韩国空军飞行员水平差的传闻是如何来的啊？
来源：百度文库 编辑：超级军网 时间：2024/05/02 18:15:31
小弟最近一直听说韩国空军飞行员的训练水平很差，而且似乎有这个观点的人数量很多。不知道这样的看法是不是对的？按说以韩国的经济实力，肯定能维持战斗机飞行员足够的飞行小时数，有美军指导的韩军似乎不应该有这么差的口碑啊？ 小弟最近一直听说韩国空军飞行员的训练水平很差，而且似乎有这个观点的人数量很多。不知道这样的看法是不是对的？按说以韩国的经济实力，肯定能维持战斗机飞行员足够的飞行小时数，有美军指导的韩军似乎不应该有这么差的口碑啊？
美帝自己说的……
kulbit 发表于 2013-11-28 10:26
美帝自己说的……
是那个美国民航教官发表的文章咩？
美帝自己说的……
是那个美国民航教官发表的文章咩？
有美帝训练，加上长期处于战备中，水平应该不差吧。
江豪 发表于 2013-11-28 10:32
有美帝训练，加上长期处于战备中，水平应该不差吧。
我也有这样的疑问，但是听很多人吐槽韩国空军战斗机飞行员的水准，就来万能的CD问一问
有美帝训练，加上长期处于战备中，水平应该不差吧。
我也有这样的疑问，但是听很多人吐槽韩国空军战斗机飞行员的水准，就来万能的CD问一问
MaoCui 发表于 2013-11-28 10:38
我也有这样的疑问，但是听很多人吐槽韩国空军战斗机飞行员的水准，就来万能的CD问一问
好像没听说，是说民航飞行员水平次吧，上次的大韩航空空难
我也有这样的疑问，但是听很多人吐槽韩国空军战斗机飞行员的水准，就来万能的CD问一问
好像没听说，是说民航飞行员水平次吧，上次的大韩航空空难
大概是由渣一般的民航飞行员合理往军事方面推断而得吧
我觉得不会差到哪去
韩国，做美国的盟友不配。只配做---萌友
CD以前专门有个帖子的……
江豪 发表于 2013-11-28 10:32
有美帝训练，加上长期处于战备中，水平应该不差吧。
貌似有人吐槽～不用看飞机，看飞行轨迹就能分辨是是美军还是棒子在开～呆板的必然是棒子～～
有美帝训练，加上长期处于战备中，水平应该不差吧。
貌似有人吐槽～不用看飞机，看飞行轨迹就能分辨是是美军还是棒子在开～呆板的必然是棒子～～
天天和美军混在一起，应该不差
韩国民航飞行员大部分都是军队转业来的，把飞军机的习惯也一起带来了。
杨少凡 发表于 2013-11-28 11:20
韩国民航飞行员大部分都是军队转业来的，把飞军机的习惯也一起带来了。
小区里就有上海空管的人，他就说了，中国飞民航的，nb的都是飞行员出身的，但是他也鄙视了大部分韩国民航飞行员，所以要么是你的信息错误，要么就是这些退役的韩国飞行员确实很sb。
韩国民航飞行员大部分都是军队转业来的，把飞军机的习惯也一起带来了。
小区里就有上海空管的人，他就说了，中国飞民航的，nb的都是飞行员出身的，但是他也鄙视了大部分韩国民航飞行员，所以要么是你的信息错误，要么就是这些退役的韩国飞行员确实很sb。
大韩航空的飞行员们上演过多次空中惊魂了，只是知道民航飞行员很二，享受过一次大韩航空汉城飞东京的重着陆，飞机停稳后大家鼓掌，不是为飞得好，而是庆幸居然没事！
我记得有个MD退役的飞行员写过一本说，详细的讲述了他培训棒子的空军飞行员的过程，棒子的空军飞行员内部有个帮派，美军按照自己的训练体系培训棒子飞行员的时候，对每个接受培训飞行员结束的时候会给一个客观的评价，对于一些被给予差评的飞行员，这些人会抱团投诉自己的教官，然后棒子自己的高层也会为自己的飞行员进行申述，为MD的飞行教官在培训过程中的不当行为进行谴责，大多数飞行教官迫于压力，不是被送回国内，或者因为愤怒离开自己的军队退役。这位教官对自己的遭遇非常的愤怒，从本职责工作上来说，他觉得自己完全是按照MD的飞行手册在培训他们，他们达不到标准，采取这些人身攻击的手段，非常的下作。
杨少凡 发表于 2013-11-28 11:20
韩国民航飞行员大部分都是军队转业来的，把飞军机的习惯也一起带来了。
你的意思前任民航局张杨元元也不行喽？
韩国民航飞行员大部分都是军队转业来的，把飞军机的习惯也一起带来了。
你的意思前任民航局张杨元元也不行喽？
你的意思前任民航局张杨元元也不行喽？
看14楼的回复，不是所有国家空军飞行员技术都不行
看14楼的回复，不是所有国家空军飞行员技术都不行
听说技术不行，主要是因为北面有个技术更不行的敌人。
类似于和臭棋篓子下棋越下越臭一个道理。
类似于和臭棋篓子下棋越下越臭一个道理。
战斗机飞飞长期跟干爹训练，不会差，民航嘛...
蓝色的歌 发表于 2013-11-28 12:59
听说技术不行，主要是因为北面有个技术更不行的敌人。
类似于和臭棋篓子下棋越下越臭一个道理。
你知道DPRK的飞行员不行？我看DPRK那次4.25阅兵上米格29的飞行员飞的有板有眼，挺好的
听说技术不行，主要是因为北面有个技术更不行的敌人。
类似于和臭棋篓子下棋越下越臭一个道理。
你知道DPRK的飞行员不行？我看DPRK那次4.25阅兵上米格29的飞行员飞的有板有眼，挺好的
韩国的军费真的充足么？
是民航机飞行员不行，空中浩劫有一部是说韩国民航机飞行员机舱管理很差源于几百年来的文化传统，年轻飞行员会完全服从资深飞行员的决定而不提出任何异议。空军飞行员是美军的飞行学校训练的，技术一点不差。
WW、三哥跟美军的合作交流也不少啊
但是总吃泡菜还是对身体不好，医生说的哈
但是总吃泡菜还是对身体不好，医生说的哈
大韩航空的飞行员们上演过多次空中惊魂了，只是知道民航飞行员很二，享受过一次大韩航空汉城飞东京的重着陆 ...
我很多次东京转机，几乎每次降落都很颠。主要是美联航，有时日航。不知道为什么。可能是大侧风？未必是飞行员差劲。
飞其它机场，只记得一次飞夏威夷蹦蹦跳跳地降下来，其它降落都很平稳。
我很多次东京转机，几乎每次降落都很颠。主要是美联航，有时日航。不知道为什么。可能是大侧风？未必是飞行员差劲。
飞其它机场，只记得一次飞夏威夷蹦蹦跳跳地降下来，其它降落都很平稳。
zxc7783 发表于 2013-11-28 11:49
我记得有个MD退役的飞行员写过一本说，详细的讲述了他培训棒子的空军飞行员的过程，棒子的空军飞行员内部有 ...
那说的是培训民航飞行员不是军方的
我记得有个MD退役的飞行员写过一本说，详细的讲述了他培训棒子的空军飞行员的过程，棒子的空军飞行员内部有 ...
那说的是培训民航飞行员不是军方的
不是差是很死板
没听说韩国空军的飞行员水平差，说差的主要是韩国民航飞行员，各种拽而且技术差。上次在美国出事那回，虽然有风向不利的因素，但是视野很好，机场条件也好，居然能飞成那样，绝对有技术方面的原因。
韩国飞行员水平,取决于空军食堂泡菜的水平.
是那个美国民航教官发表的文章咩？
是台湾节目里说的。
是台湾节目里说的。
172495037 发表于 2013-11-28 14:28
那说的是培训民航飞行员不是军方的
A网上有个波音的教官吐槽，最差的就是这些个军方的退下来的飞行员。有个人牛逼哄哄的跟他吹自己开过F16，F15也是几大百飞行小时，结果上了飞机，教官让他关掉辅助降落电子系统然后完全手动降落，他MLGB的竟然说不会，没这么干过…………美国人直接崩溃了…………
Yankee说过两个故事，我们在渤海的雷达站光是看飞行轨迹就知道哪个是MD，哪个是棒子的F16了。另外就是，F15K竟然被筷子B各种体位QJ而毫无办法，完全不像是装着129Kn强劲动力的样子。
那说的是培训民航飞行员不是军方的
A网上有个波音的教官吐槽，最差的就是这些个军方的退下来的飞行员。有个人牛逼哄哄的跟他吹自己开过F16，F15也是几大百飞行小时，结果上了飞机，教官让他关掉辅助降落电子系统然后完全手动降落，他MLGB的竟然说不会，没这么干过…………美国人直接崩溃了…………
Yankee说过两个故事，我们在渤海的雷达站光是看飞行轨迹就知道哪个是MD，哪个是棒子的F16了。另外就是，F15K竟然被筷子B各种体位QJ而毫无办法，完全不像是装着129Kn强劲动力的样子。
江豪 发表于 2013-11-28 10:32
有美帝训练，加上长期处于战备中，水平应该不差吧。
延坪岛还是战备第一线呢，结果呢，活生生的北棒子抽的死去活来。。。。。。
有美帝训练，加上长期处于战备中，水平应该不差吧。
延坪岛还是战备第一线呢，结果呢，活生生的北棒子抽的死去活来。。。。。。
再转一次吧
http://bbs.feeyo.com/posts/548/topic-0011-5486223.html
Low-down on Korean pilots，原文出处pprune.org，翻译是我朋友圣牛做的，删掉一段技术含量过高的文字。希望各位飞友能够对韩国飞行员增加一点直观的认识。
After I retired from UAL as a Standards Captain on the -400, I got a job as a simulator instructor working for Alteon (a Boeing subsidiary) at Asiana. When I first got there, I was shocked and surprised by the lack of basic piloting skills shown by most of the pilots. It is not a normal situation with normal progression from new hire, right seat, left seat taking a decade or two. One big difference is that ex-Military pilots are given super-seniority and progress to the left seat much faster. Compared to the US, they also upgrade fairly rapidly because of the phenomenal growth by all Asian air carriers. By the way, after about six months at Asiana, I was moved over to KAL and found them to be identical. The only difference was the color of the uniforms and airplanes. I worked in Korea for 5 long years and although I found most of the people to be very pleasant, it is a minefield of a work environment ... for them and for us expats.
我从美联航波音747-400机长教员的位置上退休后，在波音的子公司Alteon谋了个模拟器教官的职位，训练韩亚的飞行员。我刚到那里的时候真的被震惊了，绝大多数的飞行员缺乏基本的飞行技术。在韩国一个飞行员不象美国这边一样花上十几二十年从菜鸟升到副驾驶再升到机长，其中一个区别是韩国空军的退役飞行员晋升机长要快得多；另一个因素是亚洲航空公司的增长比美国快，相应的飞行员晋升也快。在韩亚干了六个月后，我转而训练大韩的飞行员，然后发现这些人都是一路货，唯一不同的是制服和飞机的颜色。我在韩国工作了五年，虽然我碰到的韩国人大多数很友善，但从工作环境来说那地方真是个地雷阵，不论对韩国人还是外国人而言。
One of the first things I learned was that the pilots kept a web-site and reported on every training session. I dont think this was officially sanctioned by the company, but after one or two simulator periods, a database was building on me (and everyone else) that told them exactly how I ran the sessions, what to expect on checks, and what to look out for. For example; I used to open an aft cargo door at 100 knots to get them to initiate an RTO and I would brief them on it during the briefing. This was on the B-737 NG and many of the captains were coming off the 777 or B744 and they were used to the Master Caution System being inhibited at 80 kts. Well, for the first few days after I started that, EVERYONE rejected the takeoff. Then, all of a sudden they all got it; and continued the takeoff (in accordance with their manuals). The word had gotten out. I figured it was an overall PLUS for the training program.
我最早的发现之一是飞行员们自己搞了一个网站，互相通气培训中发生了什么。我倒不认为公司公开地支持鼓励这种行为，但是一两堂模拟器课程下来，就有一个关于我 (当然其他教员也跑不了) 的个人数据库：我是怎样上课的，检查的时候喜欢查些什么，什么方面要特别小心等等。我曾经在起飞滑跑速度100节的时候模拟打开后货舱的门，等着学员中断起飞，然后我在讲评中再指出他们的错误。培训的机型是737NG，很多受训机长是从777或747-400改型号的，他们的老习惯是速度在80节以上时总警报已经被关闭了。一开始几天，所有学员都中断了起飞；几天后，后来的人全都开了窍一样，按照公司手册继续起飞。当然是他们互相交换了信息，好在这也达到了我的目的，对培训算是件好事。
We expat instructors were forced upon them after the amount of fatal accidents (most of the them totally avoidable) over a decade began to be noticed by the outside world. They were basically given an ultimatum by the FAA, Transport Canada, and the EU to totally rebuild and rethink their training program or face being banned from the skies all over the world. They hired Boeing and Airbus to staff the training centers. KAL has one center and Asiana has another. When I was there (2003-2008) we had about 60 expats conducting training KAL and about 40 at Asiana. Most instructors were from the USA, Canada, Australia, or New Zealand with a few stuffed in from Europe and Asia. Boeing also operated training centers in Singapore and China so they did hire some instructors from there.
用我们这些外国教官，对他们来说是不得已而为之。十来年里连续不断的致命事故 (绝大部分是可以避免的) 使外界注意到韩国恶劣的民航安全记录。FAA，加拿大运输部和欧盟对韩国人发了最后通牒 -- 如果他们不能彻底改变现有的飞行员培训课程，韩国的民航机会被禁止在上述国家领空飞行。于是韩国人聘请了波音和空客的教官来他们的培训中心执教，大韩有一个培训中心，韩亚有另外一个。我在那边的时候(2003 - 2008) 大概有60个外国教员在大韩，40个在韩亚。多数教员来自美国，加拿大，澳大利亚和新西兰，少数来自欧洲和亚洲。波音在新加坡和中国设有培训中心，所以他们也从那边雇一些人过来。
This solution has only been partially successful but still faces ingrained resistance from the Koreans. I lost track of the number of highly qualified instructors I worked with who were fired because they tried to enforce normal standards of performance. By normal standards, I would include being able to master basic tasks like successfully shoot a visual approach with 10 kt crosswind and the weather CAVOK. I am not kidding when I tell you that requiring them to shoot a visual approach struck fear in their hearts ... with good reason. Like this Asiana crew, it didnt compute that you needed to be a 1000 AGL at 3 miles and your sink rate should be 600-800 Ft/Min. But, after 5 years, they finally nailed me. I still had to sign my name to their training and sometimes if I just couldnt pass someone on a check, I had no choice but to fail them. I usually busted about 3-5 crews a year and the resistance against me built. I finally failed an extremely incompetent crew and it turned out he was the a high-ranking captain who was the Chief Line Check pilot on the fleet I was teaching on. I found out on my next monthly trip home that KAL was not going to renew my Visa. The crew I failed was given another check and continued a fly while talking about how unfair Captain so-and-so was.
这个办法只是部分有效，并且仍然面临韩国人的抵抗。我已经记不清有多少优秀的教官同事因为坚持正常的考核标准而被解雇了。我说的正常的考核标准是指如下基本技巧 -- 在晴朗天气，侧风10节的条件下的目视进近。不开玩笑，让他们飞一个目视进近会把他们吓死...他们也有理由被吓死。就像这次的韩亚机组，他们根本就不会速算距离3英里时高度应该是1000英尺，下降率应该是每分钟600-800英尺。每次培训完之后我都得在培训记录上签名，如果考核时我实在没法让某人过关，那我别无选择，只能关掉他；我通常一年关掉3-5个人，因此对我的不满和抵抗也越来越强烈。到了第五年，他们终于逮到我了。我关掉了一个极其不称职的，结果那个家伙是我培训机队的首席检查机长。我下一次回美国的时候，大韩拒绝再帮我延长工作签证。那个被我关掉的家伙通过了第二次考核，继续在那里飞行，并到处说某某教官太不公平。
This Asiana SFO accident makes me sick and while I am surprised there are not more, I expect that there will be many more of the same type accidents in the future unless some drastic steps are taken. They are already required to hire a certain percentage of expats to try to ingrain more flying expertise in them, but more likely, they will eventually be fired too. One of the best trainees I ever had was a Korean/American (he grew up and went to school in the USA) who flew C-141s in the USAF. When he got out, he moved back to Korea and got hired by KAL. I met him when I gave him some training and a check on the B-737 and of course, he breezed through the training. I give him annual PCs for a few years and he was always a good pilot. Then, he got involved with trying to start a pilots union and when they tired to enforce some sort of duty rigs on international flights, he was fired after being arrested and JAILED!
这次韩亚在旧金山的事故让我感到愤怒；让我惊讶的是他们出这种事只有一次，如果不采取坚决措施的话，我看这种事故将来还会出很多次。他们已经雇佣一定比例的外国飞行员来给飞行员队伍注入经验，可是这些外国人不合作的话很可能也会被炒掉。我训练的一个最优秀的学员是个在美国长大和读书的韩国人，他曾经在美国空军里飞C-141。退役以后他回到韩国加入大韩。我给他做过 737培训，那些课程对他都是小菜一碟。以后好几年我都做他的年度检查，他是个好飞行员。然后这小子试图组织一个飞行员工会，试图让公司严格执行飞行员在国际航线上的执勤时间限制。他们把他逮捕下狱，然后炒了他！
The Koreans are very very bright and smart so I was puzzled by their inability to fly an airplane well. They would show up on Day 1 of training (an hour before the scheduled briefing time, in a 3-piece suit, and shined shoes) with the entire contents of the FCOM and Flight Manual totally memorized. But, putting that information to actual use was many times impossible. Crosswind landings are also an unsolvable puzzle for most of them. I never did figure it out completely, but I think I did uncover a few clues. Here is my best guess. First off, their educational system emphasizes ROTE memorization from the first day of school as little kids. As you know, that is the lowest form of learning and they act like robots. They are also taught to NEVER challenge authority and in spite of the flight training heavily emphasizing CRM/CLR, it still exists either on the surface or very subtly. You just cant change 3000 years of culture.
韩国人是很聪明的，所以我无法理解为什么他们不能飞好飞机。他们会在培训的第一天提前一个小时到达，穿着整齐的三件套，皮鞋擦得锃亮；此时他们已经把整本的飞行手册都倒背如流了。然而，要运用这些知识对他们来说就是另一码事，很多时候是不可能的任务。侧风着陆对他们中的大多数是解不开的谜团，我从来就没有搞明白这是为什么，不过我起码知道些头绪：首先，他们的教育体系从入学第一天起就强调死记硬背，死记硬背是最低级的学习方式，而从小到大这样教出来的人只会象机器人一样行动。他们的教育也灌输不要挑战权威，所以尽管有那些座舱资源管理的培训，这一点仍然存在。江山易改，本性难移，三千年的文化没法一夜之间改变。
The other thing that I think plays an important role is the fact that there is virtually NO civil aircraft flying in Korea. Its actually illegal to own a Cessna-152 and just go learn to fly. Ultra-lights and Powered Hang Gliders are Ok. I guess they dont trust the people to not start WW III by flying 35 miles north of Inchon into North Korea. But, they dont get the kids who grew up flying (and thinking for themselves) and hanging around airports. They do recruit some kids from college and send then to the US or Australia and get them their tickets. Generally, I had better experience with them than with the ex-Military pilots. This was a surprise to me as I spent years as a Naval Aviator flying fighters after getting my private in light airplanes. I would get experienced F-4, F-5, F-15, and F-16 pilots who were actually terrible pilots if they had to hand fly the airplane. What a shock!
其次，在韩国几乎没有民间的飞行活动。买一架塞斯纳学飞行是非法的，只有超轻型飞机和滑翔伞才成。我想他们怕有人从仁川起飞往北35英里，然后第三次世界大战就爆发了。所以他们国家没有从小在机场边长大和飞机打交道的孩子，他们只是从大学里招几个人，把他们送到美国和澳大利亚拿个商业执照。总体说来，他们比那些空军退役飞行员还强些。我本人以前是海军飞行员，所以这实在让我吃惊。我培训的学员里有退役的F-4，F-5, F-15和F-16飞行员，你要他们手动操纵飞机时才发现他们是糟糕的飞行员。怎么会这样！
Finally, I"ll get off my box and talk about the total flight hours they claim. I do accept that there are a few talented and free-thinking pilots that I met and trained in Korea. Some are still in contact and I consider them friends. They were a joy! But, they were few and far between and certainly not the norm.
最后，我提一下他们的所谓飞行经验小时数。我在韩国也培训过有才华，能独立思考的飞行员，我和其中一些现在仍保持联系。但是，他们是异类，不是常态。
Actually, this is a worldwide problem involving automation and the auto-flight concept. Take one of these new first officers that got his ratings in the US or Australia and came to KAL or Asiana with 225 flight hours. After takeoff, in accordance with their SOP, he calls for the autopilot to be engaged after takeoff. How much actual flight time is that? Hardly one minute. Then he might fly for hours on the autopilot and finally disengage it (MAYBE?) below 800 ft after the gear was down, flaps extended and on airspeed (autothrottle). Then he might bring it in to land. Again, how much real flight time or real experience did he get. Minutes! Of course, on the 777 or 747, its the same only they get more inflated logbooks.
飞行的自动化是一个世界性的问题。看看那些从美国或澳大利亚拿了个商照，积累了225个飞行小时进入大韩或韩亚的菜鸟飞行员们。每次起飞以后，按照公司的标准操作程序，他接通自动驾驶仪。这是多少实际飞行小时？一分钟而已。然后飞机在自动驾驶仪的操控下飞几个小时，最后在800英尺以下，襟翼和起落架已经放下，由自动油门保持着速度，他解除自动驾驶操纵飞机着陆。这家伙飞一次总共积累了多少实际经验？几分钟而已。当然在越洋的777或747上，飞行小时数的通货膨胀更加厉害。
So, when I hear that a 10,000 hour Korean captain was vectored in for a 17-mile final and cleared for a visual approach in CAVOK weather, it raises the hair on the back of my neck.
所以，当我听说一个一万小时飞行经验的韩国机长，在大好的天气条件下从17英里外目视进近，我立时感到毛骨悚然。
http://bbs.feeyo.com/posts/548/topic-0011-5486223.html
Low-down on Korean pilots，原文出处pprune.org，翻译是我朋友圣牛做的，删掉一段技术含量过高的文字。希望各位飞友能够对韩国飞行员增加一点直观的认识。
After I retired from UAL as a Standards Captain on the -400, I got a job as a simulator instructor working for Alteon (a Boeing subsidiary) at Asiana. When I first got there, I was shocked and surprised by the lack of basic piloting skills shown by most of the pilots. It is not a normal situation with normal progression from new hire, right seat, left seat taking a decade or two. One big difference is that ex-Military pilots are given super-seniority and progress to the left seat much faster. Compared to the US, they also upgrade fairly rapidly because of the phenomenal growth by all Asian air carriers. By the way, after about six months at Asiana, I was moved over to KAL and found them to be identical. The only difference was the color of the uniforms and airplanes. I worked in Korea for 5 long years and although I found most of the people to be very pleasant, it is a minefield of a work environment ... for them and for us expats.
我从美联航波音747-400机长教员的位置上退休后，在波音的子公司Alteon谋了个模拟器教官的职位，训练韩亚的飞行员。我刚到那里的时候真的被震惊了，绝大多数的飞行员缺乏基本的飞行技术。在韩国一个飞行员不象美国这边一样花上十几二十年从菜鸟升到副驾驶再升到机长，其中一个区别是韩国空军的退役飞行员晋升机长要快得多；另一个因素是亚洲航空公司的增长比美国快，相应的飞行员晋升也快。在韩亚干了六个月后，我转而训练大韩的飞行员，然后发现这些人都是一路货，唯一不同的是制服和飞机的颜色。我在韩国工作了五年，虽然我碰到的韩国人大多数很友善，但从工作环境来说那地方真是个地雷阵，不论对韩国人还是外国人而言。
One of the first things I learned was that the pilots kept a web-site and reported on every training session. I dont think this was officially sanctioned by the company, but after one or two simulator periods, a database was building on me (and everyone else) that told them exactly how I ran the sessions, what to expect on checks, and what to look out for. For example; I used to open an aft cargo door at 100 knots to get them to initiate an RTO and I would brief them on it during the briefing. This was on the B-737 NG and many of the captains were coming off the 777 or B744 and they were used to the Master Caution System being inhibited at 80 kts. Well, for the first few days after I started that, EVERYONE rejected the takeoff. Then, all of a sudden they all got it; and continued the takeoff (in accordance with their manuals). The word had gotten out. I figured it was an overall PLUS for the training program.
我最早的发现之一是飞行员们自己搞了一个网站，互相通气培训中发生了什么。我倒不认为公司公开地支持鼓励这种行为，但是一两堂模拟器课程下来，就有一个关于我 (当然其他教员也跑不了) 的个人数据库：我是怎样上课的，检查的时候喜欢查些什么，什么方面要特别小心等等。我曾经在起飞滑跑速度100节的时候模拟打开后货舱的门，等着学员中断起飞，然后我在讲评中再指出他们的错误。培训的机型是737NG，很多受训机长是从777或747-400改型号的，他们的老习惯是速度在80节以上时总警报已经被关闭了。一开始几天，所有学员都中断了起飞；几天后，后来的人全都开了窍一样，按照公司手册继续起飞。当然是他们互相交换了信息，好在这也达到了我的目的，对培训算是件好事。
We expat instructors were forced upon them after the amount of fatal accidents (most of the them totally avoidable) over a decade began to be noticed by the outside world. They were basically given an ultimatum by the FAA, Transport Canada, and the EU to totally rebuild and rethink their training program or face being banned from the skies all over the world. They hired Boeing and Airbus to staff the training centers. KAL has one center and Asiana has another. When I was there (2003-2008) we had about 60 expats conducting training KAL and about 40 at Asiana. Most instructors were from the USA, Canada, Australia, or New Zealand with a few stuffed in from Europe and Asia. Boeing also operated training centers in Singapore and China so they did hire some instructors from there.
用我们这些外国教官，对他们来说是不得已而为之。十来年里连续不断的致命事故 (绝大部分是可以避免的) 使外界注意到韩国恶劣的民航安全记录。FAA，加拿大运输部和欧盟对韩国人发了最后通牒 -- 如果他们不能彻底改变现有的飞行员培训课程，韩国的民航机会被禁止在上述国家领空飞行。于是韩国人聘请了波音和空客的教官来他们的培训中心执教，大韩有一个培训中心，韩亚有另外一个。我在那边的时候(2003 - 2008) 大概有60个外国教员在大韩，40个在韩亚。多数教员来自美国，加拿大，澳大利亚和新西兰，少数来自欧洲和亚洲。波音在新加坡和中国设有培训中心，所以他们也从那边雇一些人过来。
This solution has only been partially successful but still faces ingrained resistance from the Koreans. I lost track of the number of highly qualified instructors I worked with who were fired because they tried to enforce normal standards of performance. By normal standards, I would include being able to master basic tasks like successfully shoot a visual approach with 10 kt crosswind and the weather CAVOK. I am not kidding when I tell you that requiring them to shoot a visual approach struck fear in their hearts ... with good reason. Like this Asiana crew, it didnt compute that you needed to be a 1000 AGL at 3 miles and your sink rate should be 600-800 Ft/Min. But, after 5 years, they finally nailed me. I still had to sign my name to their training and sometimes if I just couldnt pass someone on a check, I had no choice but to fail them. I usually busted about 3-5 crews a year and the resistance against me built. I finally failed an extremely incompetent crew and it turned out he was the a high-ranking captain who was the Chief Line Check pilot on the fleet I was teaching on. I found out on my next monthly trip home that KAL was not going to renew my Visa. The crew I failed was given another check and continued a fly while talking about how unfair Captain so-and-so was.
这个办法只是部分有效，并且仍然面临韩国人的抵抗。我已经记不清有多少优秀的教官同事因为坚持正常的考核标准而被解雇了。我说的正常的考核标准是指如下基本技巧 -- 在晴朗天气，侧风10节的条件下的目视进近。不开玩笑，让他们飞一个目视进近会把他们吓死...他们也有理由被吓死。就像这次的韩亚机组，他们根本就不会速算距离3英里时高度应该是1000英尺，下降率应该是每分钟600-800英尺。每次培训完之后我都得在培训记录上签名，如果考核时我实在没法让某人过关，那我别无选择，只能关掉他；我通常一年关掉3-5个人，因此对我的不满和抵抗也越来越强烈。到了第五年，他们终于逮到我了。我关掉了一个极其不称职的，结果那个家伙是我培训机队的首席检查机长。我下一次回美国的时候，大韩拒绝再帮我延长工作签证。那个被我关掉的家伙通过了第二次考核，继续在那里飞行，并到处说某某教官太不公平。
This Asiana SFO accident makes me sick and while I am surprised there are not more, I expect that there will be many more of the same type accidents in the future unless some drastic steps are taken. They are already required to hire a certain percentage of expats to try to ingrain more flying expertise in them, but more likely, they will eventually be fired too. One of the best trainees I ever had was a Korean/American (he grew up and went to school in the USA) who flew C-141s in the USAF. When he got out, he moved back to Korea and got hired by KAL. I met him when I gave him some training and a check on the B-737 and of course, he breezed through the training. I give him annual PCs for a few years and he was always a good pilot. Then, he got involved with trying to start a pilots union and when they tired to enforce some sort of duty rigs on international flights, he was fired after being arrested and JAILED!
这次韩亚在旧金山的事故让我感到愤怒；让我惊讶的是他们出这种事只有一次，如果不采取坚决措施的话，我看这种事故将来还会出很多次。他们已经雇佣一定比例的外国飞行员来给飞行员队伍注入经验，可是这些外国人不合作的话很可能也会被炒掉。我训练的一个最优秀的学员是个在美国长大和读书的韩国人，他曾经在美国空军里飞C-141。退役以后他回到韩国加入大韩。我给他做过 737培训，那些课程对他都是小菜一碟。以后好几年我都做他的年度检查，他是个好飞行员。然后这小子试图组织一个飞行员工会，试图让公司严格执行飞行员在国际航线上的执勤时间限制。他们把他逮捕下狱，然后炒了他！
The Koreans are very very bright and smart so I was puzzled by their inability to fly an airplane well. They would show up on Day 1 of training (an hour before the scheduled briefing time, in a 3-piece suit, and shined shoes) with the entire contents of the FCOM and Flight Manual totally memorized. But, putting that information to actual use was many times impossible. Crosswind landings are also an unsolvable puzzle for most of them. I never did figure it out completely, but I think I did uncover a few clues. Here is my best guess. First off, their educational system emphasizes ROTE memorization from the first day of school as little kids. As you know, that is the lowest form of learning and they act like robots. They are also taught to NEVER challenge authority and in spite of the flight training heavily emphasizing CRM/CLR, it still exists either on the surface or very subtly. You just cant change 3000 years of culture.
韩国人是很聪明的，所以我无法理解为什么他们不能飞好飞机。他们会在培训的第一天提前一个小时到达，穿着整齐的三件套，皮鞋擦得锃亮；此时他们已经把整本的飞行手册都倒背如流了。然而，要运用这些知识对他们来说就是另一码事，很多时候是不可能的任务。侧风着陆对他们中的大多数是解不开的谜团，我从来就没有搞明白这是为什么，不过我起码知道些头绪：首先，他们的教育体系从入学第一天起就强调死记硬背，死记硬背是最低级的学习方式，而从小到大这样教出来的人只会象机器人一样行动。他们的教育也灌输不要挑战权威，所以尽管有那些座舱资源管理的培训，这一点仍然存在。江山易改，本性难移，三千年的文化没法一夜之间改变。
The other thing that I think plays an important role is the fact that there is virtually NO civil aircraft flying in Korea. Its actually illegal to own a Cessna-152 and just go learn to fly. Ultra-lights and Powered Hang Gliders are Ok. I guess they dont trust the people to not start WW III by flying 35 miles north of Inchon into North Korea. But, they dont get the kids who grew up flying (and thinking for themselves) and hanging around airports. They do recruit some kids from college and send then to the US or Australia and get them their tickets. Generally, I had better experience with them than with the ex-Military pilots. This was a surprise to me as I spent years as a Naval Aviator flying fighters after getting my private in light airplanes. I would get experienced F-4, F-5, F-15, and F-16 pilots who were actually terrible pilots if they had to hand fly the airplane. What a shock!
其次，在韩国几乎没有民间的飞行活动。买一架塞斯纳学飞行是非法的，只有超轻型飞机和滑翔伞才成。我想他们怕有人从仁川起飞往北35英里，然后第三次世界大战就爆发了。所以他们国家没有从小在机场边长大和飞机打交道的孩子，他们只是从大学里招几个人，把他们送到美国和澳大利亚拿个商业执照。总体说来，他们比那些空军退役飞行员还强些。我本人以前是海军飞行员，所以这实在让我吃惊。我培训的学员里有退役的F-4，F-5, F-15和F-16飞行员，你要他们手动操纵飞机时才发现他们是糟糕的飞行员。怎么会这样！
Finally, I"ll get off my box and talk about the total flight hours they claim. I do accept that there are a few talented and free-thinking pilots that I met and trained in Korea. Some are still in contact and I consider them friends. They were a joy! But, they were few and far between and certainly not the norm.
最后，我提一下他们的所谓飞行经验小时数。我在韩国也培训过有才华，能独立思考的飞行员，我和其中一些现在仍保持联系。但是，他们是异类，不是常态。
Actually, this is a worldwide problem involving automation and the auto-flight concept. Take one of these new first officers that got his ratings in the US or Australia and came to KAL or Asiana with 225 flight hours. After takeoff, in accordance with their SOP, he calls for the autopilot to be engaged after takeoff. How much actual flight time is that? Hardly one minute. Then he might fly for hours on the autopilot and finally disengage it (MAYBE?) below 800 ft after the gear was down, flaps extended and on airspeed (autothrottle). Then he might bring it in to land. Again, how much real flight time or real experience did he get. Minutes! Of course, on the 777 or 747, its the same only they get more inflated logbooks.
飞行的自动化是一个世界性的问题。看看那些从美国或澳大利亚拿了个商照，积累了225个飞行小时进入大韩或韩亚的菜鸟飞行员们。每次起飞以后，按照公司的标准操作程序，他接通自动驾驶仪。这是多少实际飞行小时？一分钟而已。然后飞机在自动驾驶仪的操控下飞几个小时，最后在800英尺以下，襟翼和起落架已经放下，由自动油门保持着速度，他解除自动驾驶操纵飞机着陆。这家伙飞一次总共积累了多少实际经验？几分钟而已。当然在越洋的777或747上，飞行小时数的通货膨胀更加厉害。
So, when I hear that a 10,000 hour Korean captain was vectored in for a 17-mile final and cleared for a visual approach in CAVOK weather, it raises the hair on the back of my neck.
所以，当我听说一个一万小时飞行经验的韩国机长，在大好的天气条件下从17英里外目视进近，我立时感到毛骨悚然。
172495037 发表于 2013-11-28 14:28
那说的是培训民航飞行员不是军方的
They do recruit some kids from college and send then to the US or Australia and get them their tickets. Generally, I had better experience with them than with the ex-Military pilots. This was a surprise to me as I spent years as a Naval Aviator flying fighters after getting my private in light airplanes. I would get experienced F-4, F-5, F-15, and F-16 pilots who were actually terrible pilots if they had to hand fly the airplane. What a shock!
一开始就去US, AUSTRALIA训练的民航飞行员甚至比ex-Military的飞行员还更好！！！
那说的是培训民航飞行员不是军方的
They do recruit some kids from college and send then to the US or Australia and get them their tickets. Generally, I had better experience with them than with the ex-Military pilots. This was a surprise to me as I spent years as a Naval Aviator flying fighters after getting my private in light airplanes. I would get experienced F-4, F-5, F-15, and F-16 pilots who were actually terrible pilots if they had to hand fly the airplane. What a shock!
一开始就去US, AUSTRALIA训练的民航飞行员甚至比ex-Military的飞行员还更好！！！
Yankee倒的确吐槽过
95年之前，韩国空军没有自己的ACM训练系统，是使用美军的。
而湾湾和本本的ACM训练系统是自己管理的。
而湾湾和本本的ACM训练系统是自己管理的。
dizangli1 发表于 2013-11-28 11:20
天天和美军混在一起，应该不差
想我大菲律宾也曾是美帝正儿八经的殖民地，也没见菲佣长点本事。。。
天天和美军混在一起，应该不差
想我大菲律宾也曾是美帝正儿八经的殖民地，也没见菲佣长点本事。。。
MAZ543M 发表于 2013-11-28 13:32
你知道DPRK的飞行员不行？我看DPRK那次4.25阅兵上米格29的飞行员飞的有板有眼，挺好的
就那不到三十架能动的米格-29和每年可怜的训练时间，能飞出多高的水平实在叫人眯眼。
你知道DPRK的飞行员不行？我看DPRK那次4.25阅兵上米格29的飞行员飞的有板有眼，挺好的
就那不到三十架能动的米格-29和每年可怜的训练时间，能飞出多高的水平实在叫人眯眼。
我觉得棒子的飞飞也不会太差吧！
蓝色的歌 发表于 2013-11-28 18:49
就那不到三十架能动的米格-29和每年可怜的训练时间，能飞出多高的水平实在叫人眯眼。
北边就算了，汽油都没有，驾驶那种缺乏维护和备件的老爷机，在没有搜救能力的情况下上天，北边飞行员真的是主题思想护身
就那不到三十架能动的米格-29和每年可怜的训练时间，能飞出多高的水平实在叫人眯眼。
北边就算了，汽油都没有，驾驶那种缺乏维护和备件的老爷机，在没有搜救能力的情况下上天，北边飞行员真的是主题思想护身