求教，坦克炮用破甲弹是否会是明日黄花呢？

但是这货便宜，穿甲弹贵。你看看土鳖坦克里的三弹配比，就知道了

你的问题其实跟美军发展AMP弹的关系不是非常大。

仔细推敲了一下你引用的那段逻辑上是矛盾的，显然写的人连AMP弹研究出来作用是啥不是很明白。


简单给你翻译一下官方的新闻
来源：美国陆军官网（论坛依旧不给我上外链，不过上了也没用。美国陆军的网站国内貌似是屏蔽的

WASHINGTON (Army News Service, March 15, 2013) - The Army is developing a new Advanced Multi-Purpose 120mm tank round that combines six different capabilities into a single round, service officials said.
华盛顿（陆军新闻 2013年3月15日）所谓的AMP炮弹全称应该为多种用途炮弹， 美军计划用这种炮弹代替其现有服役弹种的六种功能。

The Advanced Multi-Purpose, or AMP, is ready to enter into the Engineering and Manufacturing Development phase after a prototype successfully demonstrated Technology Readiness Level 6 through a science and technology program at Picatinny Arsenal, N.J., in 2006.

The new round will replace a rapidly aging inventory of tank munitions, said Col. Paul Laughlin, the 47th chief of Armor and commandant of the Armor School at the Maneuver Center of Excellence, Fort Benning, Ga.
新的AMP弹会更换一大批现有美军坦克炮弹库存。

"The new AMP round is long overdue," Laughlin said. "Tankers have struggled for years with a growing number of main gun rounds capable of defeating single types of threats; this resulted in a mix of ammunition types carried on board the tank that was always a problem.
“我们已经期待这种新炮弹很久了。坦克手们多年以来一直在各种不同炮弹弹种当中周旋以选用正确的炮弹应对单一威胁，这中混杂弹种的装备方式给装甲兵作战带来了很大的麻烦，同时引起很多的问题。”

"This is not just an issue of logistics," he said. "It creates both operational and survival issues. No one wants to get into a tank engagement and not have the right ammunition to defeat the range of threats that we will see on the future battlefield. The AMP round is a game changer that greatly increases our effectiveness. We need to make a very modest and affordable investment, spread over 30 years, to field a highly versatile and reliable round with the capabilities we need for the future fight."
“这并不只是一个单纯的军事物流问题， 同时也是一个作战和生存的问题。没有人希望开着坦克加入战斗时身边没有正确的炮弹去应对即将面对的威胁。AMP炮弹的出现将改变战场的形势并提高我们的作战效率。我们需要做的是做一个非常现代化的，合理的投资，使我们在今后至少30年里能在战场上仰仗这种炮弹给我们在战场上带来优势地位。

The AMP round will replace four tank rounds now in use. The first two are the M830, High Explosive Anti Tank, or HEAT, round and the M830A1, Multi-Purpose Anti Tank, or MPAT, round. The latter round was introduced in 1993 to engage and defeat enemy helicopters, specifically the Russian Hind helicopter. The MPAT round has a two-position fuze, ground and air, that must be manually set.
AMP炮弹将会代替四种现用主要坦克弹种。第一种是M830高爆反坦克炮弹HEAT，第二种是M830A1多用反坦克炮弹MPAT。后者在1993年开始被部队使用着重应对敌方直升机威胁，尤其是苏军的低空直升机。MPAT的炮弹包含有两种不同的引信：对地和对空。这种引信需要用手工设置。

The M1028 Canister round is the third tank round being replaced. The Canister round was first introduced in 2005 by the Army to engage and defeat dismounted Infantry, specifically to defeat close-in human-wave assaults.
第三种是M1028霰弹 第一次引入这个炮弹是在2005年，用于抵御步兵威胁，尤其是应对大规模的人海攻击。

The M908, Obstacle Reduction round, is the fourth that the AMP round will replace; it was designed to assist in destroying large obstacles positioned on roads by the enemy to block advancing mounted forces.
最后一种是M908破障炮弹，这种炮弹被设计用于摧毁被敌方安置在路中央的大型反坦克障碍。

AMP also provides two additional capabilities: defeat of enemy dismounts, especially enemy anti-tank guided missile, or ATMG, teams at a distance, and breaching walls in support of dismounted Infantry operations.
AMP炮弹同时包含两个额外的作战功能：解决敌方的机动力量，尤其是在一定距离上消灭敌方的制导反坦克导弹即ATMG小队。和击毁墙壁支援机动步兵行动。

"The AMP round is a significant advance in tank ammunition capability," said Lt. Col. Brian Gruchaz, product manager for large caliber munitions at Picatinny Arsenal. "It uses an ammunition data link and a multi-mode, programmable fuze to achieve multiple effects that currently can only be achieved by selecting, loading and firing one of four different 120mm tank rounds the AMP round will replace. Together with the two additional capabilities provided by the AMP round, a single AMP round can now achieve desired effects against ATGM teams, reinforced walls, bunkers, light armor, dismounts, and obstacles."
AMP炮弹有着非常高级的区分弹种能力，通过选择，调整编程过的引信这种炮弹可以完成多种任务需要，造成不同的打击效果。一发AMP炮弹可达到6种不同的毁伤效果。

"To demonstrate these individual effects with a single round is the result of the efforts of the men and women at the Army's Armament Research, Development and Engineering Center, Picatinny Arsenal, N.J. They demonstrated the AMP capability using two key technologies that are actually quite mature, an ammunition data link and a multi-mode programmable fuze. Using these technologies, commands to select the desired effect are transmitted via data link to the fuze on the round. The fuze setting determines whether the round will function with a point-detonate, point-detonate delay, or airburst effect," Gruchacz said.

"While not yet approved to proceed to the next developmental phase of the acquisition cycle, the Engineering Manufacturing and Development or EMD, phase, the AMP capability has been successfully tested and demonstrated," Gruchacz said.

Based on the AMP round's performance during development, many tankers and Army capabilities developers believe the AMP will also provide warfighters an improved Battle Carry capability.

Battle Carry is a term used by tank crews during combat when they are preparing to engage the enemy; they load the round they believe is the most likely needed to defeat the most likely threat target. If AMP were available to Army tankers, they'd be able to Battle Carry one round capable of achieving the desired effect across a wide range of targets.

"I have commanded tankers from platoon through regiment; I wish that each of my units would have had the capabilities that the AMP round provides," Laughlin concluded. "Now, as the chief of Armor, I can influence the system to give future tankers the ammunition they need to be more lethal, more survivable, and more effective."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
简单的来说呢，比方同样是装42发炮弹在坦克中。为了完成一次复杂的作战行动你可以选择将这42发炮弹的弹容分给不同的4种弹种。这不仅要求乘员能够根据作战需要科学配比这些炮弹，还要求战时要尽可能避免用错炮弹。无论怎么样都难以避免缺乏必要炮弹或是多弹种造成的不必要麻烦。更不要说后勤保养了，首先坦克兵自己分弹种保养类，后勤方面储存，分发管理四种不同弹种也麻烦。
另外一种选择就是你发展AMP炮弹，42发全装上打啥都行，只要炮弹出膛前通过电脑设置下电子引信即可。这样还优化了后勤保养的问题。生产，维护，储存，运输一种弹种绝对比多弹种轻松不知道多少倍。
至于你说的打啥啥不行，呵呵。我倒是担心AMP这个新弹种别有这种问题。

总结一下：
坦克炮用破甲弹是否会是明日黄花？不是。
AMP炮弹是不是未来智能炮弹的发展趋势？绝对是！（光后勤一项就很值，更不要说增强坦克作战能力和战场生存能力了）
AMP炮弹的作战性能是否会因多样性的特征而受影响？不知道，得看实战表现。

你的问题其实跟美军发展AMP弹的关系不是非常大。

仔细推敲了一下你引用的那段逻辑上是矛盾的，显然写的人连AMP弹研究出来作用是啥不是很明白。


简单给你翻译一下官方的新闻
来源：美国陆军官网（论坛依旧不给我上外链，不过上了也没用。美国陆军的网站国内貌似是屏蔽的

WASHINGTON (Army News Service, March 15, 2013) - The Army is developing a new Advanced Multi-Purpose 120mm tank round that combines six different capabilities into a single round, service officials said.
华盛顿（陆军新闻 2013年3月15日）所谓的AMP炮弹全称应该为多种用途炮弹， 美军计划用这种炮弹代替其现有服役弹种的六种功能。

The Advanced Multi-Purpose, or AMP, is ready to enter into the Engineering and Manufacturing Development phase after a prototype successfully demonstrated Technology Readiness Level 6 through a science and technology program at Picatinny Arsenal, N.J., in 2006.

The new round will replace a rapidly aging inventory of tank munitions, said Col. Paul Laughlin, the 47th chief of Armor and commandant of the Armor School at the Maneuver Center of Excellence, Fort Benning, Ga.
新的AMP弹会更换一大批现有美军坦克炮弹库存。

"The new AMP round is long overdue," Laughlin said. "Tankers have struggled for years with a growing number of main gun rounds capable of defeating single types of threats; this resulted in a mix of ammunition types carried on board the tank that was always a problem.
“我们已经期待这种新炮弹很久了。坦克手们多年以来一直在各种不同炮弹弹种当中周旋以选用正确的炮弹应对单一威胁，这中混杂弹种的装备方式给装甲兵作战带来了很大的麻烦，同时引起很多的问题。”

"This is not just an issue of logistics," he said. "It creates both operational and survival issues. No one wants to get into a tank engagement and not have the right ammunition to defeat the range of threats that we will see on the future battlefield. The AMP round is a game changer that greatly increases our effectiveness. We need to make a very modest and affordable investment, spread over 30 years, to field a highly versatile and reliable round with the capabilities we need for the future fight."
“这并不只是一个单纯的军事物流问题， 同时也是一个作战和生存的问题。没有人希望开着坦克加入战斗时身边没有正确的炮弹去应对即将面对的威胁。AMP炮弹的出现将改变战场的形势并提高我们的作战效率。我们需要做的是做一个非常现代化的，合理的投资，使我们在今后至少30年里能在战场上仰仗这种炮弹给我们在战场上带来优势地位。

The AMP round will replace four tank rounds now in use. The first two are the M830, High Explosive Anti Tank, or HEAT, round and the M830A1, Multi-Purpose Anti Tank, or MPAT, round. The latter round was introduced in 1993 to engage and defeat enemy helicopters, specifically the Russian Hind helicopter. The MPAT round has a two-position fuze, ground and air, that must be manually set.
AMP炮弹将会代替四种现用主要坦克弹种。第一种是M830高爆反坦克炮弹HEAT，第二种是M830A1多用反坦克炮弹MPAT。后者在1993年开始被部队使用着重应对敌方直升机威胁，尤其是苏军的低空直升机。MPAT的炮弹包含有两种不同的引信：对地和对空。这种引信需要用手工设置。

The M1028 Canister round is the third tank round being replaced. The Canister round was first introduced in 2005 by the Army to engage and defeat dismounted Infantry, specifically to defeat close-in human-wave assaults.
第三种是M1028霰弹 第一次引入这个炮弹是在2005年，用于抵御步兵威胁，尤其是应对大规模的人海攻击。

The M908, Obstacle Reduction round, is the fourth that the AMP round will replace; it was designed to assist in destroying large obstacles positioned on roads by the enemy to block advancing mounted forces.
最后一种是M908破障炮弹，这种炮弹被设计用于摧毁被敌方安置在路中央的大型反坦克障碍。

AMP also provides two additional capabilities: defeat of enemy dismounts, especially enemy anti-tank guided missile, or ATMG, teams at a distance, and breaching walls in support of dismounted Infantry operations.
AMP炮弹同时包含两个额外的作战功能：解决敌方的机动力量，尤其是在一定距离上消灭敌方的制导反坦克导弹即ATMG小队。和击毁墙壁支援机动步兵行动。

"The AMP round is a significant advance in tank ammunition capability," said Lt. Col. Brian Gruchaz, product manager for large caliber munitions at Picatinny Arsenal. "It uses an ammunition data link and a multi-mode, programmable fuze to achieve multiple effects that currently can only be achieved by selecting, loading and firing one of four different 120mm tank rounds the AMP round will replace. Together with the two additional capabilities provided by the AMP round, a single AMP round can now achieve desired effects against ATGM teams, reinforced walls, bunkers, light armor, dismounts, and obstacles."
AMP炮弹有着非常高级的区分弹种能力，通过选择，调整编程过的引信这种炮弹可以完成多种任务需要，造成不同的打击效果。一发AMP炮弹可达到6种不同的毁伤效果。

"To demonstrate these individual effects with a single round is the result of the efforts of the men and women at the Army's Armament Research, Development and Engineering Center, Picatinny Arsenal, N.J. They demonstrated the AMP capability using two key technologies that are actually quite mature, an ammunition data link and a multi-mode programmable fuze. Using these technologies, commands to select the desired effect are transmitted via data link to the fuze on the round. The fuze setting determines whether the round will function with a point-detonate, point-detonate delay, or airburst effect," Gruchacz said.

"While not yet approved to proceed to the next developmental phase of the acquisition cycle, the Engineering Manufacturing and Development or EMD, phase, the AMP capability has been successfully tested and demonstrated," Gruchacz said.

Based on the AMP round's performance during development, many tankers and Army capabilities developers believe the AMP will also provide warfighters an improved Battle Carry capability.

Battle Carry is a term used by tank crews during combat when they are preparing to engage the enemy; they load the round they believe is the most likely needed to defeat the most likely threat target. If AMP were available to Army tankers, they'd be able to Battle Carry one round capable of achieving the desired effect across a wide range of targets.

"I have commanded tankers from platoon through regiment; I wish that each of my units would have had the capabilities that the AMP round provides," Laughlin concluded. "Now, as the chief of Armor, I can influence the system to give future tankers the ammunition they need to be more lethal, more survivable, and more effective."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
简单的来说呢，比方同样是装42发炮弹在坦克中。为了完成一次复杂的作战行动你可以选择将这42发炮弹的弹容分给不同的4种弹种。这不仅要求乘员能够根据作战需要科学配比这些炮弹，还要求战时要尽可能避免用错炮弹。无论怎么样都难以避免缺乏必要炮弹或是多弹种造成的不必要麻烦。更不要说后勤保养了，首先坦克兵自己分弹种保养类，后勤方面储存，分发管理四种不同弹种也麻烦。
另外一种选择就是你发展AMP炮弹，42发全装上打啥都行，只要炮弹出膛前通过电脑设置下电子引信即可。这样还优化了后勤保养的问题。生产，维护，储存，运输一种弹种绝对比多弹种轻松不知道多少倍。
至于你说的打啥啥不行，呵呵。我倒是担心AMP这个新弹种别有这种问题。

总结一下：
坦克炮用破甲弹是否会是明日黄花？不是。
AMP炮弹是不是未来智能炮弹的发展趋势？绝对是！（光后勤一项就很值，更不要说增强坦克作战能力和战场生存能力了）
AMP炮弹的作战性能是否会因多样性的特征而受影响？不知道，得看实战表现。

我建议坦克用编程引信，加厚外壳的榴弹，遇到工事和装甲车，穿进去再爆炸
不过听说苏联在阿富汗得出的经验，破甲弹杀伤不比榴弹差，在那里的地形可以溅射大量碎石

陆战精英 发表于 2013-4-8 01:46
你的问题其实跟美军发展AMP弹的关系不是非常大。

仔细推敲了一下你引用的那段逻辑上是矛盾的，显然写的人 ...
两句话是并列的啊：
1、amp出现，因为破甲弹过时了
2、破甲弹干啥啥不成

兄台的结论第一点没有论据支持啊，2、3点最多说明amp取代破甲弹的部分原因是后勤。

AMP的出现跟破甲弹过时这一点没有必然联系。所以我说你引用的那段在逻辑安排上有问题，先说AMP会换掉破障，霰弹，破甲弹三种炮弹。后在没有主语的情况下又说打啥啥不行的问题。这个如何理解正确。

再看看我解释的内容里AMP理念出现的主要原因。说只为单纯后勤保障那是不对的。再加说你要单纯将AMP的理论出现怪罪于所谓的破甲弹是”明日黄花“的话，那霰弹和破障弹等弹种也应算入其内。为啥？ AMP炮弹的出现主要原因是为解决坦克弹种杂乱，作用单一的问题。目的是提高坦克的作战效率和战场生存能力，同时改善后勤的运作。

最后破甲弹理念是不是过时的问题。不说美军现在还装备有HEAT的炮弹，各军都在用所谓的破甲弹做主要的反装甲弹种。在伊拉克战场上针对那种伊拉克军队过时的，没有装备爆炸反应装甲块的苏式坦克还是很有效的。再说即便是AMP炮弹出来了，它执行破甲弹功能的时候调了引信依然是破甲弹。其他军队呢？你没AMP那个技术就不拿破甲弹HEAT打坦克了？笑话。破甲弹过时了所有单兵反坦克装备都别混了，你当都是美帝拿着标枪导弹嗖嗖嗖砸顶呢。所以从技术层面上讲，破甲弹还没到过时的时候。

仔细推敲推敲，我说的断章取义的问题，到底有没有{:soso_e104:}

坍缩者 发表于 2013-4-8 14:25
两句话是并列的啊：
1、amp出现，因为破甲弹过时了
2、破甲弹干啥啥不成

AMP的出现跟破甲弹过时这一点没有必然联系。所以我说你引用的那段在逻辑安排上有问题，先说AMP会换掉破障，霰弹，破甲弹三种炮弹。后在没有主语的情况下又说打啥啥不行的问题。这个如何理解正确。

再看看我解释的内容里AMP理念出现的主要原因。说只为单纯后勤保障那是不对的。再加说你要单纯将AMP的理论出现怪罪于所谓的破甲弹是”明日黄花“的话，那霰弹和破障弹等弹种也应算入其内。为啥？ AMP炮弹的出现主要原因是为解决坦克弹种杂乱，作用单一的问题。目的是提高坦克的作战效率和战场生存能力，同时改善后勤的运作。

最后破甲弹理念是不是过时的问题。不说美军现在还装备有HEAT的炮弹，各军都在用所谓的破甲弹做主要的反装甲弹种。在伊拉克战场上针对那种伊拉克军队过时的，没有装备爆炸反应装甲块的苏式坦克还是很有效的。再说即便是AMP炮弹出来了，它执行破甲弹功能的时候调了引信依然是破甲弹。其他军队呢？你没AMP那个技术就不拿破甲弹HEAT打坦克了？笑话。破甲弹过时了所有单兵反坦克装备都别混了，你当都是美帝拿着标枪导弹嗖嗖嗖砸顶呢。所以从技术层面上讲，破甲弹还没到过时的时候。

仔细推敲推敲，我说的断章取义的问题，到底有没有{:soso_e104:}

主战坦克的复合装甲，大多只有正面才有，侧面和尾部大多只是普通的均质钢装甲，所以破甲弹依旧有用的。何况破甲弹还能对付钢筋混凝土掩体的

北风之神不露头 发表于 2013-4-8 09:29
我建议坦克用编程引信，加厚外壳的榴弹，遇到工事和装甲车，穿进去再爆炸
不过听说苏联在阿富汗得出的经验 ...
PABM弹在小口径火炮上用用还行，坦克炮这类大口径炮真没啥必要用，皮薄的建筑物榴弹或者破甲弹多打几发就能轰塌皮厚的干脆喊飞机过来扔JDAM就行了，装甲车能抗住大口径炮榴弹的也真没几辆

陆战精英 发表于 2013-4-8 11:09
AMP的出现跟破甲弹过时这一点没有必然联系。所以我说你引用的那段在逻辑安排上有问题，先说AMP会换掉破 ...
多谢解答

坍缩者 发表于 2013-4-9 01:15
多谢解答
客气。
私以为AMP这种炮弹还是在研发当中，短期之内在美军中换装改变多弹种同行的事情发生可能性不大。
AMP炮弹自身可能会有的问题也很突出，一是成本造价问题，二是执行多种任务的弹头效率问题，此外还有一些操作上的小问题自然也会一并而出。不过弹药智能化肯定是未来战争的发展趋势，我军也可从此信息当中借鉴一二，找找方向。

狠毒之狼 发表于 2013-4-8 18:54
PABM弹在小口径火炮上用用还行，坦克炮这类大口径炮真没啥必要用，皮薄的建筑物榴弹或者破甲弹多打几发就 ...
坦克在直射范围内呼叫火力支援？那还要坦克干嘛。等飞机过来二十炮也打出去了。

谁都知道HE和AP没有APCR好用，但是APER敢不要小钱钱么？

WALXY121 发表于 2013-4-9 10:52
坦克在直射范围内呼叫火力支援？那还要坦克干嘛。等飞机过来二十炮也打出去了。
要是碰上坦克搞不定的目标呢？

狠毒之狼 发表于 2013-4-11 13:47
要是碰上坦克搞不定的目标呢？
除非坚固永备工事和先进主战坦克。不然在陆战场上只有坦克打不到的，没有坦克搞不定的。

WALXY121 发表于 2013-4-11 14:43
除非坚固永备工事和先进主战坦克。不然在陆战场上只有坦克打不到的，没有坦克搞不定的。
那么求教如何用坦克打地下工事和密集建筑群中的目标？

狠毒之狼 发表于 2013-4-11 15:00
那么求教如何用坦克打地下工事和密集建筑群中的目标？
你的理解能力捉鸡啊。我都说了只有打不到。

打不到，没有搞不定。