德国台风飞行员谈红旗军演对抗F-22演习结果

来源:百度文库 编辑:超级军网 时间:2024/04/28 04:07:19

The F-22 made its debut at the international Red Flag Alaska training exercise this June where the planes "cleared the skies of simulated enemy forces and provided security for Australian, German, Japanese, Polish and [NATO] aircraft," according to an after-action public report by the Air Force. The F-22 took part in the exercise while under strict flying restrictions imposed by Defense Secretary Leon Panetta in light of mysterious, potentially deadly oxygen problems with the planes - problems that the Pentagon believes it has since solved.

The Air Force said the planes flew 80 missions during the event "with a very high mission success rate." However, a new report from Combat Aircraft Monthly revealed that in a handful of missions designed to test the F-22 in a very specific situation - close-range, one-on-one combat - the jet appeared to lose its pricey advantages over a friendly rival, the Eurofighter Typhoon, flown in this case by German airmen.

"We expected to perform less with the Eurofighter but we didn't," German air officer Marc Grune said, according to Combat Aircraft Monthly. "We were evenly matched. They didn't expect us to turn so aggressively."

Two other German officers, Col. Andreas Pfeiffer and Maj. Marco Gumbrecht, noted in the same report that the F-22's capabilities are "overwhelming" when it comes to modern, long-range combat as the stealth fighter is designed to engage multiple enemies well-beyond the pilot's natural field of vision - mostly while the F-22 is still out of the other plane's range. Grumbrecht said that even if his planes did everything right, they weren't able to get within 20 miles of the next-generation jets before being targeted.

"But as soon as you get to the merge…" Pfeiffer said, referring to the point at which fighters engage in close-up dog fighting, "in that area, at least, the Typhoon doesn't necessarily have to fear the F-22 in all aspects… In the dogfight the Eurofighter is at least as capable as the F-22, with advantages in some aspects."

链接:http://news.yahoo.com/f-22-fight ... ews-topstories.html

简单翻译:美国F-22在红旗军演中执行了80个任务,包括跟台风对抗。德国飞行员说在超视距战斗无法在不被锁定情况下靠近F-22,就算在完美表现下也是如此。但是德国人补充说一旦进入狗斗,台风并不处于下风,可以跟F-22扳平,甚至某些方面超越,特别是美国飞行员没有预计到台风瞬盘转向能力如此凶猛。

第二篇节选:
Indeed, it looks like the F-22 tends to lose too much energy when using thrust vectoring (TV): TV can be useful to enable a rapid direction change without losing sight of the adversary but, unless the Raptor can manage to immediately get in the proper position to score a kill, the energy it loses makes the then slow moving stealth combat plane quite vulnerable.

This would be coherent by analysis made in the past according to which the TV it’s not worth the energy cost unless the fighter is in the post stall regime, especially in the era of High Off Bore Sight and Helmet Mounted Display (features that the F-22 lacks).

Moreover, at a distance of about 50 km the Typhoon IRST (Infra-Red Search and Track) system is capable to find even a stealthy plane “especially if it is large and hot, like the F-22″ a Eurofighter pilot said.

链接:http://theaviationist.com/2012/07/13/fia12-typhoon-raptor/

翻译:F-22在狗斗中使用推力矢量时能量损失很大,虽然这对瞬盘有很大帮助。但是如果使用推力矢量后F-22不能马上进入锁定位置,损失的能量让它在后面的对抗中显出弱势。而且在大瞄角头显成为潮流下,矢推所损失的能量是否值得还需要探讨。另外,台风的IRST在50公里距离能发现F-22。
The F-22 made its debut at the international Red Flag Alaska training exercise this June where the planes "cleared the skies of simulated enemy forces and provided security for Australian, German, Japanese, Polish and [NATO] aircraft," according to an after-action public report by the Air Force. The F-22 took part in the exercise while under strict flying restrictions imposed by Defense Secretary Leon Panetta in light of mysterious, potentially deadly oxygen problems with the planes - problems that the Pentagon believes it has since solved.

The Air Force said the planes flew 80 missions during the event "with a very high mission success rate." However, a new report from Combat Aircraft Monthly revealed that in a handful of missions designed to test the F-22 in a very specific situation - close-range, one-on-one combat - the jet appeared to lose its pricey advantages over a friendly rival, the Eurofighter Typhoon, flown in this case by German airmen.

"We expected to perform less with the Eurofighter but we didn't," German air officer Marc Grune said, according to Combat Aircraft Monthly. "We were evenly matched. They didn't expect us to turn so aggressively."

Two other German officers, Col. Andreas Pfeiffer and Maj. Marco Gumbrecht, noted in the same report that the F-22's capabilities are "overwhelming" when it comes to modern, long-range combat as the stealth fighter is designed to engage multiple enemies well-beyond the pilot's natural field of vision - mostly while the F-22 is still out of the other plane's range. Grumbrecht said that even if his planes did everything right, they weren't able to get within 20 miles of the next-generation jets before being targeted.

"But as soon as you get to the merge…" Pfeiffer said, referring to the point at which fighters engage in close-up dog fighting, "in that area, at least, the Typhoon doesn't necessarily have to fear the F-22 in all aspects… In the dogfight the Eurofighter is at least as capable as the F-22, with advantages in some aspects."

链接:http://news.yahoo.com/f-22-fight ... ews-topstories.html

简单翻译:美国F-22在红旗军演中执行了80个任务,包括跟台风对抗。德国飞行员说在超视距战斗无法在不被锁定情况下靠近F-22,就算在完美表现下也是如此。但是德国人补充说一旦进入狗斗,台风并不处于下风,可以跟F-22扳平,甚至某些方面超越,特别是美国飞行员没有预计到台风瞬盘转向能力如此凶猛。

第二篇节选:
Indeed, it looks like the F-22 tends to lose too much energy when using thrust vectoring (TV): TV can be useful to enable a rapid direction change without losing sight of the adversary but, unless the Raptor can manage to immediately get in the proper position to score a kill, the energy it loses makes the then slow moving stealth combat plane quite vulnerable.

This would be coherent by analysis made in the past according to which the TV it’s not worth the energy cost unless the fighter is in the post stall regime, especially in the era of High Off Bore Sight and Helmet Mounted Display (features that the F-22 lacks).

Moreover, at a distance of about 50 km the Typhoon IRST (Infra-Red Search and Track) system is capable to find even a stealthy plane “especially if it is large and hot, like the F-22″ a Eurofighter pilot said.

链接:http://theaviationist.com/2012/07/13/fia12-typhoon-raptor/

翻译:F-22在狗斗中使用推力矢量时能量损失很大,虽然这对瞬盘有很大帮助。但是如果使用推力矢量后F-22不能马上进入锁定位置,损失的能量让它在后面的对抗中显出弱势。而且在大瞄角头显成为潮流下,矢推所损失的能量是否值得还需要探讨。另外,台风的IRST在50公里距离能发现F-22。
德国飞行员说在超视距战斗无法在不被锁定情况下靠近F-22,就算在完美表现下也是如此。
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这个情况要是也适用于肥电的话,那肥电可高兴了。
看来娘娘没有米蒂吹嘘的那么神奇
这些数据难道不是机密级别的吗?或者就是乱吹
所以说,三代机和四代机的主要差距在超视距空战能力。一旦进入近距离格斗,双方在机动性能方面的差异并不是特别大。
楼主你怎么不提22因为顾忌缺氧问题放不开玩过激烈动作
所以说,四代机最好的战术选择就是不进入狗斗,这样再强的三代机也要吃瘪
不过22很快就改观这个了,3.2升级就加装头显和AIM-9X全向蛋了。

杀人解闷 发表于 2012-9-21 15:00
德国飞行员说在超视距战斗无法在不被锁定情况下靠近F-22,就算在完美表现下也是如此。
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不适用,肥电是前向隐身,不能超巡
杀人解闷 发表于 2012-9-21 15:00
德国飞行员说在超视距战斗无法在不被锁定情况下靠近F-22,就算在完美表现下也是如此。
------------------ ...


不适用,肥电是前向隐身,不能超巡
这个,
有AIM-120D的资料吗?
肯定还有更多的办法,没有绝对不可战胜的!比如与无人机配合,以无人机清耗对方的中距弹,然后接近空战,是不是也可行啊?没有细想,只是这么假设一下,请不要喷我!
看起来鸭翼狗斗还不错
那就让兼具隐身与鸭翼的20上吧


F-22与3代机交战很容易刷出ACE这种说法应该是正确的-_-

F-22与3代机交战很容易刷出ACE这种说法应该是正确的-_-
yumanyuman 发表于 2012-9-21 15:06
这些数据难道不是机密级别的吗?或者就是乱吹
同感!更是像台风营销广告!
无法靠近还怎么狗斗??直接说台风无法对抗猛禽不就完了。
台风也许需要升级AESA,流星导弹和隐形能力
IRST在50公里距离能发现F-22,迎头还是尾追?
问题是狗不狗斗的选择权在22


德国飞行员说在超视距战斗无法在不被锁定情况下靠近F-22,就算在完美表现下也是如此。


也就是说在实际战斗中台风基本无法把F22逼入狗斗,差距比三代机对二代机还要大得多

德国飞行员说在超视距战斗无法在不被锁定情况下靠近F-22,就算在完美表现下也是如此。


也就是说在实际战斗中台风基本无法把F22逼入狗斗,差距比三代机对二代机还要大得多
50公里,超巡?前向?后向?
杀人解闷 发表于 2012-9-21 15:00
德国飞行员说在超视距战斗无法在不被锁定情况下靠近F-22,就算在完美表现下也是如此。
------------------ ...

肥电的RTS可比F22大不少吧?
说实在的,人家已经承认劣势了,至于格斗不格斗,红旗军演这种性质,不格斗干什么? 开着预警机巡航还是大西洋顶上摸黑玩?
除了50公里那个可能有点水分,台风的水准,尤其是那天生拿来格斗的身板,打成这样不足为怪。
有限无垠 发表于 2012-9-21 15:05
看来娘娘没有米蒂吹嘘的那么神奇
EF2000连“靠近”都做不到,这已经够神奇了吧?
混的 发表于 2012-9-21 16:20
说实在的,人家已经承认劣势了,至于格斗不格斗,红旗军演这种性质,不格斗干什么? 开着预警机巡航还是大西 ...
其实从性能指标而言,台风简直是米格29他弟弟……
八岐刺蛇 发表于 2012-9-21 16:20
肥电的RTS可比F22大不少吧?
嗯,说是大了些。
IRST即使能够发现,台风也要吃大亏,因为指挥系统根本没法正确地引导台风作战吧?
杀人解闷 发表于 2012-9-21 15:00
德国飞行员说在超视距战斗无法在不被锁定情况下靠近F-22,就算在完美表现下也是如此。
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能否超巡对于BVR的影响太大了
yetian1988 发表于 2012-9-21 15:10
楼主你怎么不提22因为顾忌缺氧问题放不开玩过激烈动作
缺氧问题已解决,参看这一期兵器知识,是个阀门的问题。
这等于说,台风在22面前如果不靠体系对抗,就是一个渣
杀人解闷 发表于 2012-9-21 15:00
德国飞行员说在超视距战斗无法在不被锁定情况下靠近F-22,就算在完美表现下也是如此。
------------------ ...
不适用,无法接近是由于F22的超巡和超机动导致的,3代机包括台风这种3.5代,压根跟不上F22的攻击节奏
让不让近身,由F22说了算哎。三代机格斗在厉害也没用啊。
只要22速度一起来,台风就完了.
wxy0wxy 发表于 2012-9-21 16:32
缺氧问题已解决,参看这一期兵器知识,是个阀门的问题。
主要是文中这件事发生在7月份,不知道那时候22的限制有没有解除,印象里是有G限制的
我觉得这里还是隐身起了主要作用。在中距上,台风没法锁定对方……
看来还是超巡+隐身这点对战斗力提升最大。。

交战选择权很重要。。

看起来台风的格斗性能很凶猛啊?  不知道20姬近距格斗表现如何。。 个人还是蛮有信心的。
路过路过
倒令人联想到了印军的MKI和美军F-15之间的对抗,前者同样因为使用TVC而掉速度和高度被后者占了先机。
记得MD的飞飞说过,一旦F22进入超巡,那就没的玩了,三代怎么都玩不过它
F22老远就看见你了,你却没法看到它,他可以随时给你一发,然后脱离接触,就算你一不小心运气超好,发现它了,因为它已进入超巡,你也追不上它

J20的隐身能力将改变F22的探测距离,J20本身的AESA也将大大提高自身的探测距离,BVR上可以一搏
一旦进入格斗,鸭翼将发挥作用
至于全向格斗弹,头盔瞄具,相信我们也会有
台风近距格斗 主要靠鸭翼瞬盘能力强的优势 F22近锯开失推会损失能量  不开常规布局瞬盘又不是鸭子的对手  现代空战 狗斗都是几十秒种  最长不过几分钟。象以前的水平稳盘缠斗已经越来越短 未来不再是主要战术动作了。


现在来看 超巡加超视距将是未来空战的主要特点。  这点上J20做的出色。