原来印尼人和东南亚是这么看中国军工的，有内幕（原创翻 ...

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=105843&page=5
注意，那个论坛比较专业，会英语的二把刀不要跑到那里争吵（现眼）

Hammer写到（这个人不是印泥人）：  
Hi guys, I believe that at this stage the Chinese fighter export industry still lags behind the US, Europpean and Russian industries in what I'sd call "export tradition" and post sale support. I belive the only "considerable" air force that has opted for chinese fighters is still Pakistan with Iran and Egypt coming relatively further down the road from Pak... I sure can't see Chinese fighters breaking into, and in relevant numbers, the South American and/or South Asian fighter markets... Maybe some 15 years ahead... If Egypt decides to buy a slew of J-10Bs for instance and/or Iran goes for the J-20 this would certainly open the doord for many new clients such as Indonesia and Malaysia or even Venezuela... Until then Russia with the Su-35S and the PAK/FA would certainly be the ones to be beat in the 3rd world fighter market.
hi伙伴们，现阶段中国的战机出口在我称之为“传统军火市场”的国家，仍然落后于美国欧洲和俄罗斯，包括售后服务。相对大量装备的只有巴基斯坦，以及伊朗和埃及。我敢肯定在15年之内中国战机不会大量进入南美、东南亚市场，直到俄罗斯的Su-35S和PAK FA在第三世界战机市场被击败，如果埃及决定买一批J10B，或者伊朗买J20，那么也许会打开很多新客户比如印尼和马来，甚至委内瑞拉。

ananda 写到（印泥人）：
Agree, that's what I'm trying to say before. Investing on Fighter jets is huge investment for many Third world nations. Simmply because China can produce something cheaper, does not mean any non 'traditional' China customers will but it.
同意，这正是我要说的，购买战机对很多第三世界国家来说是一笔很大的投资。中国战机仅仅是便宜，但这并不意味着“非传统市场”就会买它们。

Some mentioned of 'non traditional Chinese military market' countries like Indonesia, Malaysia as potential customers for China Fighter jets products. But that's all about. It is simply just that 'a potential'. Much more work still needed for China to convince them (non traditional market) that their Jet Fighters are reliable enough and China also have enough reliable after the market support, in order for for those non traditional countries to change from US, Western and Russian products.
中国军工的“非传统市场”比如 印尼、马来都是中国战机的潜在客户，但仅仅是“潜在的”。中国仍然需要努力让他们的战机变的更可靠，以及提供更可靠的售后服务，这样才能把潜在客户从美国、欧洲和俄罗斯那里抢过来。

It's not a secret that dealling with Third world countries on defense procurement can/will need some kick back/under the table incentives for the officers involved one way or the other. However that 'murky side' is not everything. Those 'grey' area come to play, when two or several contenders products got simmilar points on the 'technical' assesment stages. But if China can not provide enough 'technical' justifications and proof to satisfies the technical assesment commitee, and China Fighters will have difficulty to move to another stages in the procurement.
第三世界国家购买军火要有回扣，这不是什么秘密，但回扣并不能决定一切。如果有两三个竞标者竞标，那么“技术评估”就重要了。但如果中国不能提供足够的“技术”和证明这些技术能让人满意，那么中国战机很难进入采购的下一个阶段。

This 'seems' that happen many times for China's fighters jets when have to compete on 'non tarditional' market countries. For Indonesia I know for certain, that many Chinese defense products simply can not passed 'technical' assesment stages. So far only lighter and lower-tech products like man-pads SAM QW-3 and C-802 SSM that can able to passed those 'technical' assesment stages.
这‘似乎’已经在中国在“非传统市场”兜售战机时发生很多次了，至少我确定在印尼发生过，很多中国军品甚至不能通过技术评估阶段，到目前为止只有轻型、低技术产品比如前卫-3和C-803可以通过技术评估阶段。

rsetiawan  写到（另一个印尼人）：
yes so far only QW3, Zu-23 copy and C802...china stuff in our arsenal
my nation found South Korea is better partner who are really willing give transfer of technology and have quality product at affordable price. we today use locally manufactured Korea designed/korea assisted LPD, Korea KIA jeep for marine, Korea's KT-1 trainer, and soon korea IFV (planned) and involved in KFX project too....
是的，到目前为止，印尼军队只有中国的前卫3和zu-23和C802
我的国家发现南朝鲜是一个更好的伙伴，他们真的愿意以合理的价格转让技术、提供质量好的产品。我们现在使用韩国设计生产的两栖登陆舰，KIA吉普，KT-1涡桨教练机，计划中很快还会有韩国步兵战车和KFX隐形战机

kgblue （不是印尼人）：
I'm curious what are these"many Chinese defense products" have been promoted to Indonesia? besides QW3, C802, make few examples
我很好奇所谓的“很多中国军品”在印尼兜售，除了前卫3，C802还有什么？

ananda：
The lattest Chinese Jets that already included on procurement tenders but failed the test was FC 2000 for LIFT. After FC 2000 failed to next stage, Chinese then put offer for L-15, to be included in the next stage (allongside L-159, Yak-130, and T-50 that pass first stage), however the procurement team still did not want to include L-15 on the next stage up until now.
最近发生的是中国拿出的是fc2000山鹰飞机竞标，在fc2000首轮失败后，中国人又拿出了L15（L-159, Yak-130, and T-50 通过了首轮），但采购小组仍然不想把L15包括进下一轮竞标。

China also try to enter Submarine tender, however Navy procurement team reject it on the basis of late arival on the tender (officially), but unofficially the Navy simply did want to considered Chinese subs.
中国也想参与潜艇竞标，但海军采购小组拒绝了，官方理由是投标晚了，但非官方的理由是海军根本不想考虑中国潜艇。（原文这里可能有笔误，按意思应该是我翻的这个）

Those two are the latest tender. There are also some electronics and sensors and other offer already submit and discussed, that I'm not going to disclose now since it's not an open tender yet. Look, China's already try to get into 'non-traditional' defense market like Indonesia, but it's simply not going to be easy just on the basis of price to convince 'non-traditional chinese defense product users' to use their product.
上面两个例子是最近发生的，他们还想提供电子产品和传感器，我不能多说，因为这些采购现在还没有公开。看，中国已经在努力向“非传统军火市场”兜售了，比如印尼，但如果中国只有价格优势那么抢夺“非传统”客户是非常困难的。

This thread talking about possibility of the latest High Tech (in this sense J-20) of China on taking World Export market. I'm only stated that China need much more work to convince 'non-traditional' export market of China's defense products on the quality and reliability of their 'relative' high-tech products. China making progress on the lower-tech products to some of 'non-traditional' market like Indonesia. But in my oppinion it's still more work to be done by the Chinese to convince those market on higher tech products...Let alone their latest/highest tech defense products.
这个帖子是讨论最新的高科技J20的出口前景的，我只想说中国要想抢夺“非传统市场”，中国需要更多努力让中国产品更有质量和可靠性。中国在低技术产品出口上取得了一定进展，比如印尼。但我的观点是中国人仍然要做更多努力去争夺高技术市场，更不要说最新最高科技产品了（这句指J20）

So good luck for China to try, I'm just simply want to watch if China ablle to change the 'non-traditional export 'market Perception, on their high-tech defense products. Without able to change that perception on the 'non-traditional' users, its very difficult for China to take on world defense market since those 'non-traditional users' of chinese products still constitute the largets market especially in the third world nation. Afterall those 'non-traditional' market in South America and Asia still provide much larger market compared to what is traditional Chinese defense market in Africa and some in South/South East Asia.
祝中国好运，我只想看看中国高科技军品能否得到“非传统市场”的认同，如果不能得到认同，那么中国很难打进巨大的“非传统市场”特别是第三世界国家，这些南美和亚洲的“中国非传统市场”比“中国传统市场”要大多了，比如非洲和一些南亚/东南亚国家。

PS:
Indonesian 'technical' standard in Defense procurement is still lower compared to bigger and more competitive 'non-traditional' Chinese defense export market, like say Brasil, Turkey, etc. If Chinese defense products still have difficulty to enter market like Indonesia, and how it's going to fare well on larger and more competitive 'non-traditional' market ?
另外，印尼军队的技术标准仍然比“中国非传统市场”的主要国家要低，比如巴西土耳其等等。如果中国的军品连印尼市场都进入不了，那么中国怎么可能进入其它更大更具竞争性的其它“非传统市场”呢？

2011.1.21更新
ananda：
That's right..so No matter what you say or I say..in the Internet..will not matter with the decision makers in each Defense Ministry.
说的没错，无论你怎样说，我们只是在互联网上说说而已，不会影响到哪个国防部的决定

You don't believe in the market Perceptions..well it's up to you..you want to believe that China Defense products already at par with Russian and Western products..it's also up to you.
你不相信市场的认同有多重要，如果你认为中国军品的价值已经和俄罗斯、西方产品的价值一样了，那么也随你

However I have a privelage to talk with some official on Armed Forces of few SEA countries (which of course will not be disclosed by me in this forum)..that reflect their doubt of the long term reliability of China's defense products.
然而，我很荣幸有和一些东南亚军队官方交谈的特权（我不会说出这些国家的名字），他们对中国军品的长期可靠性表示怀疑

That market perception that still need to be address by the Chinese producers if they want to break significantly to other non traditional market.
中国军品仍然需要得到市场的认同，这样才能进入中国的非传统市场。

You say that China will make different product according to the wallet of the buyer..Well tell me if China already make significant impact on breaking to 'Rich' non-traditional market ?
Selling some weapons to rich gulf states does not mean China already making impact on their market..How many percentage of the weapon espacially High Tech Weapon that China be able to fill those market ?
If it's still less than 5%..then it's not significant break. And how do you expect they (the richmarket) will buy J-20 (with BTW is the main topic in this thread).
你说中国针对出价不同的客户提供不同等级的产品，那么你能否告诉我中国已经在哪些“富”国出售先进武器了？
卖一些武器到富裕的海湾国家并不意味着中国已经对那里的市场造成冲击了，中国武器在那里的比例到底有多少呢？特别是高技术武器
如果仍然小于5%，那么毫无意义，你怎么能指望他们那些富国将会买J20呢？

From what I heard, it's not economical enough for LIFT long term operation, regardless it's one of the cheapest in the contest. Also again, there's some doubt on the Armed Procurement Commitee on how long China will continue supporting FTC-2000, since at same time they begin offering L-15.
Still, the Commitee also has not included L-15 on the next stage, but they still listen though to Chinese offer.
我听说长期使用ftc2000并不经济，虽然它是最便宜的一个。另外，采购委员会也怀疑中国能对ftc2000持续售后支持多久，后来他们提供了L15，但委员会仍然没有把L15包括进下一阶段的招标。

On the latest Zhuhai, one of the official of CATIC Mr. Liu Jianhai offered another packages as Join Development on what he called L-15 ICA (Indonesian Combat Fighter), as development to L-15 if Indonesian can considered L-15 as LIFT.
CATIC offered to developed Light Fighter to counter KAI moves that besides offering DI/IAe parts of KFX projects, they also offering to Joint Development on Indonesian versions of F/A-50 if T-50 win LIFT projects.
Those offer did not come From Russia on Yak-130 in which even though some Air Force Generals prefer Yak-130 as LIFT, the Min-Def still reserved their final Judgement on LIFT contest.
最近的珠海航展，中航的Liu Jianhai提供了另一套方案——如果印尼选择L15作为LIFT，那么可以和印尼共同研制L15 ICA(印尼战斗机)。
中航提供轻型战斗机来反击韩国KAI的KFX（隐形战机）计划，他们还提供了一套方案，如果T50赢了LIFT可以合作研发印尼版的F/A-50。
最终印尼军队还是选择了俄罗斯的Yak-130作为LIFT，虽然俄罗斯没有提供类似的合作方案。

That's what I'm trying to say on China products on 'non-traditional' market...(which in turn mostly got some 'hot' wounded 'nationalistic' pride repply). China producers need to go 'FURTHER' just like what CATIC try, to win more trust on their products with 'non-traditional' users. What's CATIC trying to 'win' is more trust that they willing to go all the way in order to support the reliability of their products.
我要说的是，中国军品进入非传统市场，需要更多努力（就像中航那样的努力），需要赢得非传统市场的信任。中航试图赢得更多信任的努力将会令中国产品更具可靠性。【译注：他不会是想让印尼和中国联合研制J20吧？？】

Can L-15 will be considered later on..well will see..The contest now still open. But if L-15 can somehow 'nudge' ahead, it's not because 'the price', but because CATIC able to change the perception on Chinese Product Reliability. Will CATIC can do that..will see.
以后也许还会考虑L15，竞争仍然是开放的。但如果L15能取得进一步，那么肯定不会因为它便宜，而是因为中航试图改变用户的认同，中航会这样做吗？让我们看看。

Opening the 'non-traditional' market in which still have doubt, of course different than Traditional Market that already 'Trust' Chinese products.
打开非传统市场仍然有疑问，当然中国军品已经获得传统市场的信任。

BTW; On the beginning of my posts I already say that Chinese defense products on 'lower-tech' catagory already abble to enter Indonesian market. However the 'Higher-Tech' products that's still have difficulty. Something that seems some of the repply already 'emotionally' ignore that
顺便说一句，一开始我说“低技术”中国军品已经进入印尼市场，但“高技术”想进入仍然有困难，我这么说似乎有人在感情上接受不了。
----------------------------------------------------------
就是说中国产品技术低可靠性差，还摆出一副高高在上的姿态，印尼猴子也有这个资本？

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=105843&page=5
注意，那个论坛比较专业，会英语的二把刀不要跑到那里争吵（现眼）

Hammer写到（这个人不是印泥人）：  
Hi guys, I believe that at this stage the Chinese fighter export industry still lags behind the US, Europpean and Russian industries in what I'sd call "export tradition" and post sale support. I belive the only "considerable" air force that has opted for chinese fighters is still Pakistan with Iran and Egypt coming relatively further down the road from Pak... I sure can't see Chinese fighters breaking into, and in relevant numbers, the South American and/or South Asian fighter markets... Maybe some 15 years ahead... If Egypt decides to buy a slew of J-10Bs for instance and/or Iran goes for the J-20 this would certainly open the doord for many new clients such as Indonesia and Malaysia or even Venezuela... Until then Russia with the Su-35S and the PAK/FA would certainly be the ones to be beat in the 3rd world fighter market.
hi伙伴们，现阶段中国的战机出口在我称之为“传统军火市场”的国家，仍然落后于美国欧洲和俄罗斯，包括售后服务。相对大量装备的只有巴基斯坦，以及伊朗和埃及。我敢肯定在15年之内中国战机不会大量进入南美、东南亚市场，直到俄罗斯的Su-35S和PAK FA在第三世界战机市场被击败，如果埃及决定买一批J10B，或者伊朗买J20，那么也许会打开很多新客户比如印尼和马来，甚至委内瑞拉。

ananda 写到（印泥人）：
Agree, that's what I'm trying to say before. Investing on Fighter jets is huge investment for many Third world nations. Simmply because China can produce something cheaper, does not mean any non 'traditional' China customers will but it.
同意，这正是我要说的，购买战机对很多第三世界国家来说是一笔很大的投资。中国战机仅仅是便宜，但这并不意味着“非传统市场”就会买它们。

Some mentioned of 'non traditional Chinese military market' countries like Indonesia, Malaysia as potential customers for China Fighter jets products. But that's all about. It is simply just that 'a potential'. Much more work still needed for China to convince them (non traditional market) that their Jet Fighters are reliable enough and China also have enough reliable after the market support, in order for for those non traditional countries to change from US, Western and Russian products.
中国军工的“非传统市场”比如 印尼、马来都是中国战机的潜在客户，但仅仅是“潜在的”。中国仍然需要努力让他们的战机变的更可靠，以及提供更可靠的售后服务，这样才能把潜在客户从美国、欧洲和俄罗斯那里抢过来。

It's not a secret that dealling with Third world countries on defense procurement can/will need some kick back/under the table incentives for the officers involved one way or the other. However that 'murky side' is not everything. Those 'grey' area come to play, when two or several contenders products got simmilar points on the 'technical' assesment stages. But if China can not provide enough 'technical' justifications and proof to satisfies the technical assesment commitee, and China Fighters will have difficulty to move to another stages in the procurement.
第三世界国家购买军火要有回扣，这不是什么秘密，但回扣并不能决定一切。如果有两三个竞标者竞标，那么“技术评估”就重要了。但如果中国不能提供足够的“技术”和证明这些技术能让人满意，那么中国战机很难进入采购的下一个阶段。

This 'seems' that happen many times for China's fighters jets when have to compete on 'non tarditional' market countries. For Indonesia I know for certain, that many Chinese defense products simply can not passed 'technical' assesment stages. So far only lighter and lower-tech products like man-pads SAM QW-3 and C-802 SSM that can able to passed those 'technical' assesment stages.
这‘似乎’已经在中国在“非传统市场”兜售战机时发生很多次了，至少我确定在印尼发生过，很多中国军品甚至不能通过技术评估阶段，到目前为止只有轻型、低技术产品比如前卫-3和C-803可以通过技术评估阶段。

rsetiawan  写到（另一个印尼人）：
yes so far only QW3, Zu-23 copy and C802...china stuff in our arsenal
my nation found South Korea is better partner who are really willing give transfer of technology and have quality product at affordable price. we today use locally manufactured Korea designed/korea assisted LPD, Korea KIA jeep for marine, Korea's KT-1 trainer, and soon korea IFV (planned) and involved in KFX project too....
是的，到目前为止，印尼军队只有中国的前卫3和zu-23和C802
我的国家发现南朝鲜是一个更好的伙伴，他们真的愿意以合理的价格转让技术、提供质量好的产品。我们现在使用韩国设计生产的两栖登陆舰，KIA吉普，KT-1涡桨教练机，计划中很快还会有韩国步兵战车和KFX隐形战机

kgblue （不是印尼人）：
I'm curious what are these"many Chinese defense products" have been promoted to Indonesia? besides QW3, C802, make few examples
我很好奇所谓的“很多中国军品”在印尼兜售，除了前卫3，C802还有什么？

ananda：
The lattest Chinese Jets that already included on procurement tenders but failed the test was FC 2000 for LIFT. After FC 2000 failed to next stage, Chinese then put offer for L-15, to be included in the next stage (allongside L-159, Yak-130, and T-50 that pass first stage), however the procurement team still did not want to include L-15 on the next stage up until now.
最近发生的是中国拿出的是fc2000山鹰飞机竞标，在fc2000首轮失败后，中国人又拿出了L15（L-159, Yak-130, and T-50 通过了首轮），但采购小组仍然不想把L15包括进下一轮竞标。

China also try to enter Submarine tender, however Navy procurement team reject it on the basis of late arival on the tender (officially), but unofficially the Navy simply did want to considered Chinese subs.
中国也想参与潜艇竞标，但海军采购小组拒绝了，官方理由是投标晚了，但非官方的理由是海军根本不想考虑中国潜艇。（原文这里可能有笔误，按意思应该是我翻的这个）

Those two are the latest tender. There are also some electronics and sensors and other offer already submit and discussed, that I'm not going to disclose now since it's not an open tender yet. Look, China's already try to get into 'non-traditional' defense market like Indonesia, but it's simply not going to be easy just on the basis of price to convince 'non-traditional chinese defense product users' to use their product.
上面两个例子是最近发生的，他们还想提供电子产品和传感器，我不能多说，因为这些采购现在还没有公开。看，中国已经在努力向“非传统军火市场”兜售了，比如印尼，但如果中国只有价格优势那么抢夺“非传统”客户是非常困难的。

This thread talking about possibility of the latest High Tech (in this sense J-20) of China on taking World Export market. I'm only stated that China need much more work to convince 'non-traditional' export market of China's defense products on the quality and reliability of their 'relative' high-tech products. China making progress on the lower-tech products to some of 'non-traditional' market like Indonesia. But in my oppinion it's still more work to be done by the Chinese to convince those market on higher tech products...Let alone their latest/highest tech defense products.
这个帖子是讨论最新的高科技J20的出口前景的，我只想说中国要想抢夺“非传统市场”，中国需要更多努力让中国产品更有质量和可靠性。中国在低技术产品出口上取得了一定进展，比如印尼。但我的观点是中国人仍然要做更多努力去争夺高技术市场，更不要说最新最高科技产品了（这句指J20）

So good luck for China to try, I'm just simply want to watch if China ablle to change the 'non-traditional export 'market Perception, on their high-tech defense products. Without able to change that perception on the 'non-traditional' users, its very difficult for China to take on world defense market since those 'non-traditional users' of chinese products still constitute the largets market especially in the third world nation. Afterall those 'non-traditional' market in South America and Asia still provide much larger market compared to what is traditional Chinese defense market in Africa and some in South/South East Asia.
祝中国好运，我只想看看中国高科技军品能否得到“非传统市场”的认同，如果不能得到认同，那么中国很难打进巨大的“非传统市场”特别是第三世界国家，这些南美和亚洲的“中国非传统市场”比“中国传统市场”要大多了，比如非洲和一些南亚/东南亚国家。

PS:
Indonesian 'technical' standard in Defense procurement is still lower compared to bigger and more competitive 'non-traditional' Chinese defense export market, like say Brasil, Turkey, etc. If Chinese defense products still have difficulty to enter market like Indonesia, and how it's going to fare well on larger and more competitive 'non-traditional' market ?
另外，印尼军队的技术标准仍然比“中国非传统市场”的主要国家要低，比如巴西土耳其等等。如果中国的军品连印尼市场都进入不了，那么中国怎么可能进入其它更大更具竞争性的其它“非传统市场”呢？

2011.1.21更新
ananda：
That's right..so No matter what you say or I say..in the Internet..will not matter with the decision makers in each Defense Ministry.
说的没错，无论你怎样说，我们只是在互联网上说说而已，不会影响到哪个国防部的决定

You don't believe in the market Perceptions..well it's up to you..you want to believe that China Defense products already at par with Russian and Western products..it's also up to you.
你不相信市场的认同有多重要，如果你认为中国军品的价值已经和俄罗斯、西方产品的价值一样了，那么也随你

However I have a privelage to talk with some official on Armed Forces of few SEA countries (which of course will not be disclosed by me in this forum)..that reflect their doubt of the long term reliability of China's defense products.
然而，我很荣幸有和一些东南亚军队官方交谈的特权（我不会说出这些国家的名字），他们对中国军品的长期可靠性表示怀疑

That market perception that still need to be address by the Chinese producers if they want to break significantly to other non traditional market.
中国军品仍然需要得到市场的认同，这样才能进入中国的非传统市场。

You say that China will make different product according to the wallet of the buyer..Well tell me if China already make significant impact on breaking to 'Rich' non-traditional market ?
Selling some weapons to rich gulf states does not mean China already making impact on their market..How many percentage of the weapon espacially High Tech Weapon that China be able to fill those market ?
If it's still less than 5%..then it's not significant break. And how do you expect they (the richmarket) will buy J-20 (with BTW is the main topic in this thread).
你说中国针对出价不同的客户提供不同等级的产品，那么你能否告诉我中国已经在哪些“富”国出售先进武器了？
卖一些武器到富裕的海湾国家并不意味着中国已经对那里的市场造成冲击了，中国武器在那里的比例到底有多少呢？特别是高技术武器
如果仍然小于5%，那么毫无意义，你怎么能指望他们那些富国将会买J20呢？

From what I heard, it's not economical enough for LIFT long term operation, regardless it's one of the cheapest in the contest. Also again, there's some doubt on the Armed Procurement Commitee on how long China will continue supporting FTC-2000, since at same time they begin offering L-15.
Still, the Commitee also has not included L-15 on the next stage, but they still listen though to Chinese offer.
我听说长期使用ftc2000并不经济，虽然它是最便宜的一个。另外，采购委员会也怀疑中国能对ftc2000持续售后支持多久，后来他们提供了L15，但委员会仍然没有把L15包括进下一阶段的招标。

On the latest Zhuhai, one of the official of CATIC Mr. Liu Jianhai offered another packages as Join Development on what he called L-15 ICA (Indonesian Combat Fighter), as development to L-15 if Indonesian can considered L-15 as LIFT.
CATIC offered to developed Light Fighter to counter KAI moves that besides offering DI/IAe parts of KFX projects, they also offering to Joint Development on Indonesian versions of F/A-50 if T-50 win LIFT projects.
Those offer did not come From Russia on Yak-130 in which even though some Air Force Generals prefer Yak-130 as LIFT, the Min-Def still reserved their final Judgement on LIFT contest.
最近的珠海航展，中航的Liu Jianhai提供了另一套方案——如果印尼选择L15作为LIFT，那么可以和印尼共同研制L15 ICA(印尼战斗机)。
中航提供轻型战斗机来反击韩国KAI的KFX（隐形战机）计划，他们还提供了一套方案，如果T50赢了LIFT可以合作研发印尼版的F/A-50。
最终印尼军队还是选择了俄罗斯的Yak-130作为LIFT，虽然俄罗斯没有提供类似的合作方案。

That's what I'm trying to say on China products on 'non-traditional' market...(which in turn mostly got some 'hot' wounded 'nationalistic' pride repply). China producers need to go 'FURTHER' just like what CATIC try, to win more trust on their products with 'non-traditional' users. What's CATIC trying to 'win' is more trust that they willing to go all the way in order to support the reliability of their products.
我要说的是，中国军品进入非传统市场，需要更多努力（就像中航那样的努力），需要赢得非传统市场的信任。中航试图赢得更多信任的努力将会令中国产品更具可靠性。【译注：他不会是想让印尼和中国联合研制J20吧？？】

Can L-15 will be considered later on..well will see..The contest now still open. But if L-15 can somehow 'nudge' ahead, it's not because 'the price', but because CATIC able to change the perception on Chinese Product Reliability. Will CATIC can do that..will see.
以后也许还会考虑L15，竞争仍然是开放的。但如果L15能取得进一步，那么肯定不会因为它便宜，而是因为中航试图改变用户的认同，中航会这样做吗？让我们看看。

Opening the 'non-traditional' market in which still have doubt, of course different than Traditional Market that already 'Trust' Chinese products.
打开非传统市场仍然有疑问，当然中国军品已经获得传统市场的信任。

BTW; On the beginning of my posts I already say that Chinese defense products on 'lower-tech' catagory already abble to enter Indonesian market. However the 'Higher-Tech' products that's still have difficulty. Something that seems some of the repply already 'emotionally' ignore that
顺便说一句，一开始我说“低技术”中国军品已经进入印尼市场，但“高技术”想进入仍然有困难，我这么说似乎有人在感情上接受不了。
----------------------------------------------------------
就是说中国产品技术低可靠性差，还摆出一副高高在上的姿态，印尼猴子也有这个资本？