AL41F考证贴--总共造了28台， 17台现在处于工作状态（20 ...

80年代就AL41了。。。土鳖！！！

我更关注楼主半年冲到少将,真活跃啊。

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当年开发AL-41F的干将， 现在老了。

--

AL-41性能参数怎么样啊？和F-119比怎么样？

TG啊...跟毛子比重工业还是不行啊

据Wiki上数据，变循环，prototype就有18t推力，研制目标20t
da说是3611

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研发的老大， AL-41F的重要参与者， AL-31的改进者和参与者。

继续爆料。

============

AL-31真是..........苏联第一采用单晶叶片的发动机， 材料为： single-crystal turbine blades from nickel, rhenium and cobalt




最大的T4温度可以为1850K？;funk  为什么在生产型中， 没有那么高呢？

--

In mid-1960 EDB Saturn begins to develop next-generation engine - the AL-21F. They are equipped with fighter-bombers Su-17, MiG-23 ", and also one of the world's best attack aircraft of its time -" Su-24.

Swan song became a prominent designer engine AL-31 ", whose development began in 1972 for fighter Su-27". The history of its creation is full of drama. Only the second attempt - all had to start from scratch - Lyul'ko achieved the desired result. But in the end were born that all the recognized technical masterpiece. It was used so many innovations that would be enough for a dozen others.

For example, the first time in the USSR (if not the world) in the engine AL-31F, used single-crystal turbine blades from nickel, rhenium and cobalt. That was considered an absolute taboo for mass production - single crystal blades - has been predicted with remarkable courage and promptly implemented in aviation engine. As a result, the maximum temperature of the gas has increased to the current 1850 K, respectively, and significantly increase efficiency while reducing the size of the engine alone, this invention deserves a Nobel Prize.

=================

研发的老大， AL-41F的重要参与者， AL-31的改进者和参与者。

继续爆料。

============

AL-31真是..........苏联第一采用单晶叶片的发动机， 材料为： single-crystal turbine blades from nickel, rhenium and cobalt




最大的T4温度可以为1850K？;funk  为什么在生产型中， 没有那么高呢？

--

In mid-1960 EDB Saturn begins to develop next-generation engine - the AL-21F. They are equipped with fighter-bombers Su-17, MiG-23 ", and also one of the world's best attack aircraft of its time -" Su-24.

Swan song became a prominent designer engine AL-31 ", whose development began in 1972 for fighter Su-27". The history of its creation is full of drama. Only the second attempt - all had to start from scratch - Lyul'ko achieved the desired result. But in the end were born that all the recognized technical masterpiece. It was used so many innovations that would be enough for a dozen others.

For example, the first time in the USSR (if not the world) in the engine AL-31F, used single-crystal turbine blades from nickel, rhenium and cobalt. That was considered an absolute taboo for mass production - single crystal blades - has been predicted with remarkable courage and promptly implemented in aviation engine. As a result, the maximum temperature of the gas has increased to the current 1850 K, respectively, and significantly increase efficiency while reducing the size of the engine alone, this invention deserves a Nobel Prize.

==========================

关于117S的推重比， 现在可以有个说法了。

117S 和AL-31相比， 重量一克也没有增加

---------------

Experience thus for ten years, a unique experience, we overthrew the modernization of AL-31F. As a result, the engine was born "117". Even a simple application of developments available an amazing result - the engine thrust increased from 12.5 tonnes to 15. Without adding a gram of weight, we increased the thrust by 20 percent!

For aircraft it has become a huge leap: in some modes of resistance to excess traction tripled. And when four years ago we had this engine for the Sukhoi Su-27 ", we saw that so never flew any fighter - for overclocking, climb, for all flight characteristics.

============

原来买了大修的许可证， 就有了全套图纸............
:L

这个哥们来了中国看过TH？ 对TH的研发人员很有信心啊， “ I personally have no doubt"。

---------------
Chinese plane - an exact copy of our?

- Regarding the engine, it is not an exact copy. I saw it. The Chinese have used and their development, but 70 percent is our AL-31F, all of our automation. Buying a license for the production of engine they have not， only bought a license for the repair of engines (of course with all the drawings).

And since the repair and manufacture, in fact, very close, all the Chinese carefully studied and mastered the production of their own. In China, a very competent engineers, and that they will acquire these products,

I personally have no doubt there was. Therefore, we have only one way out - to do better. And we have done engine "117C". Now let them drive on us!

======================

117S 是个纯粹出口降级版？  给谁呢?。。。。。。。。

总师爆料了..........

---------

- By the way, you are talking about 15 tons, as far as I heard, "117C" has a thrust of 14.5 tons of ...

- This version of the engine is designed mainly for export, will continue to be "cheap" version of the engine is not the letter "C" with a thrust of 15 tons actually. We have to collect. That "117 th" at the beginning will stand and now being built in Komsomolsk-on-Amur, Russia's fifth generation fighter "PAK FA.

======================

117S 是个纯粹出口降级版？  给谁呢?。。。。。。。。

总师爆料了..........

---------

- By the way, you are talking about 15 tons, as far as I heard, "117C" has a thrust of 14.5 tons of ...

- This version of the engine is designed mainly for export, will continue to be "cheap" version of the engine is not the letter "C" with a thrust of 15 tons actually. We have to collect. That "117 th" at the beginning will stand and now being built in Komsomolsk-on-Amur, Russia's fifth generation fighter "PAK FA.

难道117S 是给TG 丝带用的出口版................联想PUPU以前的感叹帖子...........[:a2:]

==========

米格1.44 为什么造那么重呢？  为啥要设计AL-41F发动机呢？


80年代的背景情况.....原因如下：

--
Let's put the question differently. Can we make a superior aircraft "F-22"? Not only can, in fact, fifth-generation fighter, we already have. He is, but not fly. By all measures, he meets the fifth generation fighter aircraft. This is already above 30-ton Mikoyanovsky "1.44/1.42".


Why at the time it laid so great? The logic then was such, and I know that for sure, because he took part in this. Americans while laying the plane, which is now called
"F-22 Raptor. From the open and covert sources knew what kind of weapon he is armed, how much weight, and many other parameters. Our experts have weapons needed to perform the same tasks as the "Raptor" - and it was a 10 per cent heavier than the American. Locator, computers, avionics, etc. - All this also proved to be 15 percent heavier, because the element base was worse. And when everything is loaded onto an airplane, it turned out that it is more difficult than "F-22". And once the car heavier, the engines should have a greater thrust. Engine "F119" has a thrust of 15.5 tons, and our "41F AL - 15 per cent more. The logic, as you see, is simple.

Chinese plane - an exact copy of our?

- Regarding the engine, it is not an exact copy. I saw it. The Chinese have used and their development, but 70 percent is our AL-31F, all of our automation. Buying a license for the production of engine they have not， only bought a license for the repair of engines (of course with all the drawings).

And since the repair and manufacture, in fact, very close, all the Chinese carefully studied and mastered the production of their own. In China, a very competent engineers, and that they will acquire these products,

I personally have no doubt there was. Therefore, we have only one way out - to do better. And we have done engine "117C". Now let them drive on us! ------------------
弄了半天，TH 还是个70%的山寨混血，毛子也够二的把图纸也给我们了。想到各位笑毛子，嘿嘿！棒子阿三有同伙了。

阿三加棒子 发表于 2010-3-4 22:05


    ..........大修图纸,TG悲剧了

JSTCVW09CD 发表于 2010-3-4 21:52


    好久不见PU大了，进来歇泄啊。。。[:a2:]

..........大修图纸,TG悲剧了------难怪会喷零件。

回复 3# mlz


    JS是个好孩子，帖子水分较少，质量比较高的，从技术还有态度方面讲

then - a real "117". It will be much better than the "117C", and the next step - what we call the engine generation 5 +.



------------------------------


- And yet, as things stand with the engine generation 5 +, which was eagerly waiting for aircraft manufacturers?

- This is the next step. As I said, we have done "117C", then - a real "117". It will be much better than the "117C", and the next step - what we call the engine generation 5 +. The new engine - it continued the line AL-41-go ", but when we laid in 1981, even with the participation of AM Lyulka, during which time much has changed even in the ideology of the structure.

MiG-23MLD 发表于 2010-3-4 22:08


    Buying a license for the production of engine they have not， only bought a license for the repair of engines (of course with all the drawings).

PUPU， 快进来给个说法啊..............

JSTCVW09CD 发表于 2010-3-4 22:12

应该是生产是一个说明书,维修是另一本....

我估计他说的是维修的那本...

MiG-23MLD 发表于 2010-3-4 22:14

And since the repair and manufacture, in fact, very close,

JSTCVW09CD 发表于 2010-3-4 22:12

Possible是这本...

Buying a license for the production of engine they have not， only bought a license for the repair of engines (of course with all the drawings).-------是毛子不同意，还是我们太自信想省钱，以为搞个大修图纸就能山寨之，搞到喷零件加趴窝，太有喜感了。

======================

关于5+发动机的技术问题。 总师也是说的很具体啊。


关于2004年， 土星就解决了2000K以上的密封问题， 看来不虚。



最新的风扇， 低压压气机，全新的燃烧室和涡轮， 最新的叶片..............

-----------------

"Ideas and projects we have a lot ...."
  
And while there is a normal job, which, incidentally, I chair. We have designed the parts, now they produce, feel ...

For example, in the stage production of the newest fan, low pressure compressor stage, has already made an entirely new combustion chamber, the turbine is the newest, latest turbine blades. In general, everything goes according to plan.

If you have money, there is a pool of companies and institutions that work on the engine generation 5 +. Need only work, work and work ...

毛子以后大修图纸也要看好了。

MiG-23MLD 和JSTCVW09CD 是这里少有的Normal人，懂得还多。

====================

总师的谦虚---------从这个里面完全体现

Sam-146............为什么要和法国人合作， 三个方面。 很全面， 很地道。

第一， 苏联解体后十多年， 没有经费，国家荒废了。 需要向外面学习设计技术。 50个年轻工程师在巴黎附近和法国人一起设计工作。

第二， 飞机要卖到国际市场， 法国人可以帮助更快的认证改发动机。

第三， 法国发动机公司全球的服务体系。

------------


-----------------

- Victor M., as follows from your story, work on engines for the fighters in NGOs is excellent, there are ideas, and orders, and finance. Why did you undertake non-core EDO task - the development of engines for civilian aircraft, and why have decided to develop a new engine in conjunction with the French?

- The first question I have already partially answered. Furthermore, when it was decided to make Superjet, it appeared that the engine for him to do something no one. In engines for civil aircraft business in our situation is not the best way. No matter how painful it is to say, but neither Soloviev Design Bureau in Perm, nor Kuznetsovsky SNTK in Samara, or other such problem today is not under force.

What is it, if desired tab today Perm Motors, which is called "PS-90, and where to fly Tu-204, Tu 214 and IL-96, I participated, even as the first Deputy SP Solov'ev, and I went from Perm in 1983. In fact, this engine is the ideology of the early 1980's, and his American and British "classmates" is already out of production. Of course, these engines can still be used, but to really compete with modern foreign motors, they can not. This is partly why we were forced to cooperation with Snecma

There are three other considerations.

First, draw the French modern techniques of design. I recall that during those 15 years, while the state abandoned us to fend for themselves, we are seriously podotstali in this case. We now have up to 50 designers continuously work near Paris, and together with the French, designing the engine. These young guys - our hope. For us, a fundamental question - to teach people on the advanced level.

Secondly, certification. From the outset we positioned the aircraft not only Russia but also on the international market. The fact that the development of the aircraft (with engines) will cost roughly $ 2.5 billion aircraft will be sold for say $ 25-27 million, but profit from each sale will be suspended $ 3 million is easy to calculate when repulse (as they say ) the money. To reach the zero level of profitability, need to sell at least 600 machines, but in Russia requires a maximum of 250-300 regional jets. In the world according to the calculations of such machines require 2-3 thousand, and we are fully capable to sell even more not too ousting competitors - Embraer and Bombardier. At the 70 aircraft we already have firm orders, or rather not at "Saturn" and a "SCAC". I say "we", as a participant in the production of the aircraft.

To a civilian aircraft was open sky in all countries, it is essential to go through this procedure. To do this, the results of each test, we need to bring a specialist committee of the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO). Certification, ie, the protection of the international aviation oversight bodies themselves Frenchmen. This is terribly expensive business - Certification of the engine is worth $ 200 million.

And last but not least important consideration - maintenance. Nobody will buy you even the best engine, if you do not have a system service. We rely on service stations Snecma, which are scattered around the world. Post re-Customer Service - terribly expensive business. These three basic considerations and motivates us to work together with the French.

sbtcsem 发表于 2010-3-4 21:29
Изд.20是变循环？！;P

aliasmaya 发表于 2010-3-4 22:31


    做为版主， 要严肃讨论喔................:handshake :P

总师的谦虚---------从这个里面完全体现

Sam-146............为什么要和法国人合作， 三个方面。 很全面， 很地道。

第一， 苏联解体后十多年， 没有经费，国家荒废了。 需要向外面学习设计技术。 50个年轻工程师在巴黎附近和法国人一起设计工作。

第二， 飞机要卖到国际市场， 法国人可以帮助更快的认证改发动机。

第三， 法国发动机公司全球的服务体系。 ------------------------------------肚里有料多的人才会自信又自知，反知就嘿嘿！

回复 30# aliasmaya


    玛雅， 觉得T-50的这个发动机是117的话， 推力如何？

负责研发的老大可是说：


As I said, we have done "117C", then - a real "117". It will be much better than the "117C", and the next step - what we call the engine generation 5 +.

关注中，估计没那么快可以出口的

JSTCVW09CD 发表于 2010-3-4 22:14


    说法？你想要什么说法{:3_94:}

pupu 发表于 2010-3-4 22:43


    我们想知道TG有没去谈T-50 {:3_94:}

pupu 发表于 2010-3-4 22:43


    117S这个纯粹出口版是不是要到TG来了啊？

土星的研发老大都说了， 是纯粹的出口版了...................

----------你在发动机版那里挖了个坑， 是不是要填了...........?:L

一定要诱导PUPU来填坑.............:D

MiG-23MLD 发表于 2010-3-4 22:16

这只是本教材，根据技术说明书等资料编写，型号是最老的（Изделие 99.03、即预生产的серии 1型），十几年前空军工程学院出过译本，大概是谢寿生主持翻译的吧。

JSTCVW09CD 发表于 2010-3-4 22:44


    关于中俄军贸，已经有很多介绍了。从当初的苏-27到后来的苏-30，各方面的报道和介绍都不少。但是有一点很奇怪，就是关于中国引进俄罗斯航空发动机的大修线的情况，似乎从来没有过任何具体的消息。这里的老大怎么多，哪位大能给介绍一下吧{:3_97:}