2007年红旗视频的记录,再帖一次

Well First of all the MKI had issues with the TVC engine.. Quiet a bit of them stalled leading to Kills in I Vs I confrontations

Non-Compatabliity with NATO AWACs and no DATALINK (it was non operational due to Security Reasons , just as the EW Suit and Radar were turned off) lead to alot of Own Goals so to say as they had to get verbal commands from AWACs.

Overall the InAF went with Complete rookie Pilots they had a steep learning curve and adapted quiet well.


In another video (Same Presentation) there is a scathing report of the Rafale as well. The Rafale aparently was more interested in Doing ELINT evesdropping on the MKIs and usually in engagements the MKI went in first (Strike Missions) and the Rafales just hung back and thus "Claimed" Their participation. The Rafale also never got shot down..


the BARs was set ONLY in training mode..no other modes were operational and they were still ahve to use the full range of the R-77. No EW included no CHAFF/Flares so they got shot down quiet a bit in Strike Sorties.

The transcript

You have lot of questions on the Su-30MKI - big aircraft, huge aircraft etc.

(Some bits about an F-22 and Su30 composite video on youtube and how both appear identical but this is only for airshows etc)

Coming to aircraft capabilities, the Sukhoi 30 with its avionics, radar , weapons compares well with our legacy fighters, the F-15 and F-16. The Sukhoi is a tad bit better (holds arm at chest level, and the other arm signifying the Sukhoi a wee bit higher). But now compare with the F-225 raptor, the raptor is here. (holds palm way above his head - signifying that the aircraft is much better).

The Sukhoi engines are very vulnerable to FOD. The Indians asked for a 1 minute spacing between take offs - with nearly 50-60 aircraft supposed to take off in a ___ who will wait one minute between each take off to launch these six aircraft, c'mon, you can go elsewhere.. but what we did was launch their aircraft ahead, since they had enough gas fuel, they would go and wait / orbit ahead and the rest would join up.

The engines were particularly ... what would happen is that the FOD damaged engines would have to be flown to russia for overhaul and the Indians sitting all the way here, it wasnt particulary...

Now coming to the aircombat. You know the story of Cope India and how our F-15s went there for the exercise at the Indian Nellis. Our aircraft were a regular unit while they had the most experienced pilots on the Sukhoi-30s there. ours were a mix of 80-20 - 80 percent with low experience, less than 500 hours on the F-15, the remaining 20 were fairly experienced but they came back from a staff appointment but they had experience. The Indian pilots came from MiG-21 Bison units. the MiG-21 bison, as you know is based on the Mig from the Vietnam war era, but upgraded with an Israeli radar, Israeli jammer, active homing missile etc. the small RCS of the MiG-21 with the Israeli jammer would make them invisible to radar... mean they could close in on our legacy fighters and engage in aircombat.

anyway at Cope India, we held our own, but the Indians went to town thumping their chests - they said we shot them down more times than they shot us down - which was true.

Now here at Red Flag, the Sukhoi unit that they sent was a regular operational unit - had a mix of 50-50 (experienced and inexperienced). They had come off MiG-21s and worked... Well what happened was after the first two to three days of operations, you know exchanging patches and all, we went up in 1 vs 1 combat.

The Sukhoi has thrust vectoring engines. the pilot has to engage a swtich on the stick to engage the TVc nozzles on the engine. We had enough experience with the F-22. which has up/down TVC nozzles. What would happen is that the in a merge with the F-22, you would be pulling in scissor fight hoping you would get the F-22 in your sights (laughs ). The F22 can sustain a turn rate of 26-28 deg per second while the F-15 can get an instantaneous rate of 22 and a sustained rate of 16-17. So you are pulling and hoping.

Now from our experience, the only way you would get the F-22. and the only way - this happens only if there is an inexperienced pilot because the experienced ones never make the mistake. is that he wants more than 26-28 sustained turn rate and pulls tighter. the TVC pushes the aircraft into post stall and the ass end drops. the aircraft then instead of turning goes vertical. This is where the F-15 pilot would pull up vertical, switch to guns, then come down and take a shot at the F-22. Of course you have to first get in close to do this. most probably the F-22 will kill you before that.

the Sukhoi has TVC in a V (hand gesture) . This was with an F-15 in regular configuration, missiles under wings , drop tanks with fuel in them. The Sukhoi was clean with the exception of one wing station which ahd the ACMI pod. So in the mege, with all the frantic manuevering in trying to merge. The sukhoi can do 22 deg in a sustained turn rate. The TVC would kick in and push the aircraft in this direction when the pilot engages the switch on the stick. All this is formidable on paper but what you would know is that with the TVC kicking in, its a huge aircraft, and thrusting such a huge aircraft in that direction creates a lot of drag. So in the fight the aircraft would go into a post stall TVC maneuver, the ass end drops and instead of going up, it just drops in mid air. The F-15 wouldn't even have to pull up. slight pull up on the stick, engage guns, come down and drill his brains out.

The Indians were astonished. We were amazed. After three to four days of `1vs1, they said, okay we had enough of this lets get back to the regular operations. While at Cope India , all the Indians wanted to do was just 1 vs 1 (laughs!)

Part 2

One thing about the IAF - they were a professional lot and they were very strict about the rules of the flying area. during their stay they made zero mistakes -/ errors about the flying area and that was incredible. we had other expectations but they were quite good.

The french usually came with Mirage 2000 dash 6, but the moment they knew the Indians were getting the Sukhois they decided to send the Rafales. their latest, advanced...

Now what the french would do, they would fly many missions with the Indians, the IAF would lead would shoot or get shot, then the french would shoot (implying from a distance) and turn back. They were just listening around, soaking up all the electronic traffic and ... (Snooping around in short) (talks about coalition setting up air cover, french would just send a patrol up, listen in , snoope in and then also say - "we participated as well"

The Koreans bought in their brand new F-15Ks. beautiful aircraft, with AESA radar and all. but they had less than 50 hours on it (this type and these were straight from the factory had zero hours on them) and they were still learning the aircraft. so it did not have any significant impact.
The IAF was also very serious about another thing. They killed a lot of friendlies. You know what was happening is that they didn't have the datalink with the Awacs Big internet data links. Russian made data links no computer link - the Koreans, the French and us could see the complete picture on the HUD, but the IAF had to ask the AWACS. they would ask about a target ahead, "Contact on my nose 22 miles, friendly or hostile?" Awacs would say "No hostile within 40 miles of you" then "Fox2." (laughs/audience laughs) The first two days they got hit bad, they were getting shot down while waiting for answers so they decided to kill the other guy fast without knowing.. better you die than me. But they took the fratricides very seriously.

Something about the French and "God Forbd we have to (fight with them)"

Red Flag Alaska (PACOM??): This is different from Red Flag Nellis. This where we exercise for friendship building. Most countries that fly there are in a conflict with each other. While in Red Flag Nellis we usually fly with coaltions partners. The Indians really wanted to participate in Red Flag Nellis.Well First of all the MKI had issues with the TVC engine.. Quiet a bit of them stalled leading to Kills in I Vs I confrontations

Non-Compatabliity with NATO AWACs and no DATALINK (it was non operational due to Security Reasons , just as the EW Suit and Radar were turned off) lead to alot of Own Goals so to say as they had to get verbal commands from AWACs.

Overall the InAF went with Complete rookie Pilots they had a steep learning curve and adapted quiet well.


In another video (Same Presentation) there is a scathing report of the Rafale as well. The Rafale aparently was more interested in Doing ELINT evesdropping on the MKIs and usually in engagements the MKI went in first (Strike Missions) and the Rafales just hung back and thus "Claimed" Their participation. The Rafale also never got shot down..


the BARs was set ONLY in training mode..no other modes were operational and they were still ahve to use the full range of the R-77. No EW included no CHAFF/Flares so they got shot down quiet a bit in Strike Sorties.

The transcript

You have lot of questions on the Su-30MKI - big aircraft, huge aircraft etc.

(Some bits about an F-22 and Su30 composite video on youtube and how both appear identical but this is only for airshows etc)

Coming to aircraft capabilities, the Sukhoi 30 with its avionics, radar , weapons compares well with our legacy fighters, the F-15 and F-16. The Sukhoi is a tad bit better (holds arm at chest level, and the other arm signifying the Sukhoi a wee bit higher). But now compare with the F-225 raptor, the raptor is here. (holds palm way above his head - signifying that the aircraft is much better).

The Sukhoi engines are very vulnerable to FOD. The Indians asked for a 1 minute spacing between take offs - with nearly 50-60 aircraft supposed to take off in a ___ who will wait one minute between each take off to launch these six aircraft, c'mon, you can go elsewhere.. but what we did was launch their aircraft ahead, since they had enough gas fuel, they would go and wait / orbit ahead and the rest would join up.

The engines were particularly ... what would happen is that the FOD damaged engines would have to be flown to russia for overhaul and the Indians sitting all the way here, it wasnt particulary...

Now coming to the aircombat. You know the story of Cope India and how our F-15s went there for the exercise at the Indian Nellis. Our aircraft were a regular unit while they had the most experienced pilots on the Sukhoi-30s there. ours were a mix of 80-20 - 80 percent with low experience, less than 500 hours on the F-15, the remaining 20 were fairly experienced but they came back from a staff appointment but they had experience. The Indian pilots came from MiG-21 Bison units. the MiG-21 bison, as you know is based on the Mig from the Vietnam war era, but upgraded with an Israeli radar, Israeli jammer, active homing missile etc. the small RCS of the MiG-21 with the Israeli jammer would make them invisible to radar... mean they could close in on our legacy fighters and engage in aircombat.

anyway at Cope India, we held our own, but the Indians went to town thumping their chests - they said we shot them down more times than they shot us down - which was true.

Now here at Red Flag, the Sukhoi unit that they sent was a regular operational unit - had a mix of 50-50 (experienced and inexperienced). They had come off MiG-21s and worked... Well what happened was after the first two to three days of operations, you know exchanging patches and all, we went up in 1 vs 1 combat.

The Sukhoi has thrust vectoring engines. the pilot has to engage a swtich on the stick to engage the TVc nozzles on the engine. We had enough experience with the F-22. which has up/down TVC nozzles. What would happen is that the in a merge with the F-22, you would be pulling in scissor fight hoping you would get the F-22 in your sights (laughs ). The F22 can sustain a turn rate of 26-28 deg per second while the F-15 can get an instantaneous rate of 22 and a sustained rate of 16-17. So you are pulling and hoping.

Now from our experience, the only way you would get the F-22. and the only way - this happens only if there is an inexperienced pilot because the experienced ones never make the mistake. is that he wants more than 26-28 sustained turn rate and pulls tighter. the TVC pushes the aircraft into post stall and the ass end drops. the aircraft then instead of turning goes vertical. This is where the F-15 pilot would pull up vertical, switch to guns, then come down and take a shot at the F-22. Of course you have to first get in close to do this. most probably the F-22 will kill you before that.

the Sukhoi has TVC in a V (hand gesture) . This was with an F-15 in regular configuration, missiles under wings , drop tanks with fuel in them. The Sukhoi was clean with the exception of one wing station which ahd the ACMI pod. So in the mege, with all the frantic manuevering in trying to merge. The sukhoi can do 22 deg in a sustained turn rate. The TVC would kick in and push the aircraft in this direction when the pilot engages the switch on the stick. All this is formidable on paper but what you would know is that with the TVC kicking in, its a huge aircraft, and thrusting such a huge aircraft in that direction creates a lot of drag. So in the fight the aircraft would go into a post stall TVC maneuver, the ass end drops and instead of going up, it just drops in mid air. The F-15 wouldn't even have to pull up. slight pull up on the stick, engage guns, come down and drill his brains out.

The Indians were astonished. We were amazed. After three to four days of `1vs1, they said, okay we had enough of this lets get back to the regular operations. While at Cope India , all the Indians wanted to do was just 1 vs 1 (laughs!)

Part 2

One thing about the IAF - they were a professional lot and they were very strict about the rules of the flying area. during their stay they made zero mistakes -/ errors about the flying area and that was incredible. we had other expectations but they were quite good.

The french usually came with Mirage 2000 dash 6, but the moment they knew the Indians were getting the Sukhois they decided to send the Rafales. their latest, advanced...

Now what the french would do, they would fly many missions with the Indians, the IAF would lead would shoot or get shot, then the french would shoot (implying from a distance) and turn back. They were just listening around, soaking up all the electronic traffic and ... (Snooping around in short) (talks about coalition setting up air cover, french would just send a patrol up, listen in , snoope in and then also say - "we participated as well"

The Koreans bought in their brand new F-15Ks. beautiful aircraft, with AESA radar and all. but they had less than 50 hours on it (this type and these were straight from the factory had zero hours on them) and they were still learning the aircraft. so it did not have any significant impact.
The IAF was also very serious about another thing. They killed a lot of friendlies. You know what was happening is that they didn't have the datalink with the Awacs Big internet data links. Russian made data links no computer link - the Koreans, the French and us could see the complete picture on the HUD, but the IAF had to ask the AWACS. they would ask about a target ahead, "Contact on my nose 22 miles, friendly or hostile?" Awacs would say "No hostile within 40 miles of you" then "Fox2." (laughs/audience laughs) The first two days they got hit bad, they were getting shot down while waiting for answers so they decided to kill the other guy fast without knowing.. better you die than me. But they took the fratricides very seriously.

Something about the French and "God Forbd we have to (fight with them)"

Red Flag Alaska (PACOM??): This is different from Red Flag Nellis. This where we exercise for friendship building. Most countries that fly there are in a conflict with each other. While in Red Flag Nellis we usually fly with coaltions partners. The Indians really wanted to participate in Red Flag Nellis.