论坛讨论LCA延迟问题——也是极端火爆！

看了LCA延迟印度人的情绪，显示与CD有过之而无不及。有意思。
来不及翻译，请有空的帮补。


Will the LCA ever fly with an Indian engine?
LCA将用印度发动机
Seema Singh - Monday, February 09, 2009 10:27 PM
That's a billion dollar question or least will become one by the time we even have a good working prototype.
Consider this: India's GTRE (Gas Turbine Research Establishment) has spent about $411 million in the development of Kaveri engine since the project began in 1989. It was supposed to power India's much-touted Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), Tejas, which is likely to be inducted into the Indian Air Force in 2011. But it now appears the LCA will have to use a foreign engine (it currently uses a GE engine) until at least the middle of the next decade.
Twenty years and no solid progress in sight!
Now, don't ask me what's the cost and time overrun in LCA. That's another billion-dollar question.

这是个数十亿美元的问题，或至少我们届时将有一个能够很好工作的原型。考虑这点，印度的GTRE ( Gas Turbine Research Establishment燃气涡轮研究机构)从1989年启动的计划，至今已经花费了4.11亿美元用于开发Kaveri发动机。它将用于推动印度大力兜售的轻型战斗机LCA上，Tejas（光辉），它有可能于2011年引入到印度空军。但现在显示LCA可能必须装一台外国发动机（当前使用通用引擎），至少直到下一个十年内都是如此。20年了,看不到可靠的进展!现在不要问我LCA的费用和时间超出预算，那是另一个数十亿美元的问题。
  
Pix courtesy: ADA and Defencetalk
So, when today I got the ‘media' invite for a technical symposium on Feb 13 on the "Latest and future trends in Gas Turbine technology" from Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd., I cringed. （不及物动词 vi.1. 畏缩;蜷缩） Future trends are good to know, but what I'd ideally like to know is our "past" delays and failures in GT and other defense technologies. Alas, no one holds any meeting/symposium/seminar on them!
Can someone tell me why taxpayers' money is spent on buying tools/software whose packs don't even get opened! [Reportedly, allegedly, (call it what you will), some DRDO labs bought expensive and brilliant Matlab tools but left them unopened for years!)
This space is too small and my reporting abilities too frail to dig up the DRDO delays, which incidentally the defense minister was happy to defend last year but blames it on red tape this year.

Ironically, he remembers this now -- at the fag end of his government's term and at the beginning of a high-profile biennial Aero-India 2009, starting on Feb 11 in Bangalore.
If anybody has any insight on these issues, please share!

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Tagged in: GE Kaveri, GTRE, AK Antony, AeroShow 2009, defense, LCA, ADA
42 Comment
From Sanjib Ghosh

February 9, 2009 11:38 PM
Do you understand the complexity of making an engine of a fighter aircraft. "Twenty years and no solid progress in sight!" Do you have any idea, how much knowledge India has gained in this process. If you want progress you have to start one day and failure is a part of it. Today Kaveri is 95% complete. The problem is, it does not have adequate thrust for LCA, as LCA gained weight(Due to change in specification again and again). LCA can fly with Kaveri but you will not get required thrust. Please appreciate the hard woke by our scientists and engineers. Remember, they are working for peanuts just for their pride. This is not as easy writing a junk report like this. You can't make fighter jet engine overnight. I am sure Kaveri will come just wait.

你是否懂得制造飞机引擎的复杂性？“20年看不到实在的进展！”对于印度在这个过程中获得了多少知识，你有什么想法？如果想要进步你必须在某天开始而失败就是其中一部分。今天，Kaveri卡弗里95%完成。问题是，它不能为LCA提供足够的推力，因为LCA重量增加（由于再三更改规格）。LCA可以用Kaveri飞行但你将达不到需要的推力。请感谢我们的科学家和工程师的辛苦工作吧。记住，他们只是为他们的荣誉而工作！
From Bharath

February 10, 2009 12:13 AM
Hi Ms Singh, I guess you are not aware that there are only 4 countries, which makes engines on their own. FOUR!, Now when India took a complex program as this, with no prior experience, it is bound to encounter MANY hurdles. Hell, even the LCA consulting companies, such as GE, Boeing, Snecma, Eurojet Consortium are ready to give away any knowledge. THAT IS THE IMPORTANCE and SECRECY they realize, and will do any thing, so that INDIA does not get its own engine. Considering all this, such half baked report, in a condescending way DOES NOT show any respect to a few people working on the project. Maybe, lets see, I want you to research all you can and talk about digital quadruple flight control system, which INDIANS managed,and it is best out there. Your article looks like a 5th grade babbling that he could not manage to get an extra laddho.
From sanjay

Singh女士好，我猜你不知道只有4个国家能够制造他们自己的（航空）发动机。对，四个！现在当印度进行象这样一个如此复杂的项目，完全没有前面的经验，它必然遇到许多障碍。Hell，即使是LCA的顾问公司如通用电气，波音公司，斯奈克玛，Eurojet联盟也（不）准备出卖任何知识。他们知道它是重要性的机密，将不会做任何（转让）的事情，因此印度才不能得到自己的发动机。考虑这些，如此一个半生不熟的报告，以傲慢的方式对项目上工作的少数人一点也不尊重。也许，我们看看，我希望以你的能力研究再谈论数字四重飞行控制系统，是哪些印度人在做，这样最好。你的文章象一个5年级的小学生的胡说八道而他不能设法获得额外laddho（印度语）。

February 10, 2009 1:45 AM
The article seems to have been written by a lay person who is a complete idiot in defence R&D matters.
From Pavan

这篇文章看起来象一个完全不懂国防研发事务的白痴写的。

February 10, 2009 2:19 AM
Come on now, don't scorn the author like that. What she is asking is a relevant question. 2 decades and no engine ?, i understand its a very complex feat, however, the ministry should have done everything in its hands to get it done, it is a matter of national security. If there is a war, and Russia refuses/delay's engines for the sukhoi's/mig's do you think the enemy country will wait till we get our act together ? and then attack us ?, i am sure it would. The attitude should be, get it done, beg borrow steal or create it, does not matter how much money, that is the attitude which lacks in management, plus the folks working there get in through reservations, who i am sure are the top of their class !!. If i am not wrong, if the present trend continues, the engine will never get built, not until 2 more decades, when everybody is so far ahead, they wont care if we have the tech or not.

好的，不要那样嘲笑作者。好问的问题是一个恰当的问题。20年没有引擎？，我明白它是一个非常复杂的事情，但是部长应该在自己手里把事情做完以使之成功，这是关系到国家安全的大事！如果发生战争，而俄罗斯拒绝/延迟苏霍伊/米格引擎，你想敌国会等我们准备好再来攻击我们？我想它不会的。正确的态度是，要做，而不管是讨来的、借来的、偷来的还是自己做出来的，不在乎用多少钱，这种态度是没有远见的，那些人也在增加他们的技术储备，我肯定他们是最优秀的！如果我没错，如果当前的趋势继续，发动机将不会制造，直到二十年后也不会，当每个人都哪此超前，他们不管我们有没有这种技术。
From Pavan

February 10, 2009 2:28 AM
That said, i would very much like the engine built, no matter what !!.
From Raman

就是说，无论如何，我都很愿意这个发动机建造好。

February 10, 2009 4:30 AM
firstly, for the author, please dont attempt at writing at such important topics without any research. you wasted lot of people's time and with your amateur work, anyone who has followed the story diligently and fairly will be provoked to rebuke. now, Pavan, you are correct when you say that we shall get it done by hook or crook but in time. plz consider that India had no fighter aircraft development experience (except Marut) and we were attempting a 4 or as some analyst say 4.5 gen aircraft. so, dude it will never be an easy task. you seem hell bent on considering Indian scientists and engineers as bad but even those attached to prestigious US defence projects acknowledge the complexity of this task. I am refering you to another report on livemint and quoting the text from its last para...  "Ricardo Traven, chief test pilot of the F/A-18 programme, the twin-engine fighter of Boeing Corp., said building the class of Tejas planes is very difficult. “If you say (you are) building a fourth generation airplane, the first question that comes in mind is, show me your third or second generation plane. If you haven’t built an earlier generation plane, how can you possibly build the next one?” he said."
From Pavan

首先，对于作者，不要企图在没有任何研究的情况下写一个如此重要的题目。你浪费了很多人的时间，你的业余工作任何人一旦勤奋地跟随那个故事，就会被公平地激起指责。现在，Pavan，你是对的当你说我们必须按时做成不管是偷还是骗。请考虑印度没有制造战斗机的经验（除Marut外），我们是在企图制造一架4代或4.5代的飞机。因此，不是一个简单的任务。你不好象不会弯下腰考虑印度科学家和工程师那么差，而喜爱那些有名望的美国防务项目都知道的这个任务的复杂性。我可提供您另一个关于livemint的报告并且引述文本最后一节…
“Ricardo Traven, F/A-18项目，波音双引擎战斗机的首席试飞员说，建造一架这种级别的战斗机是非常困难的。“如果你说（正在说）建造一架四代飞机，第一个跳入脑子的问题是，给我看看你们的二代或三代飞机。如果你不能更早的飞机，你怎么可能建造一个下一代的？”他说。

February 10, 2009 4:47 AM
Raman, I understand their will be difficulties, and any complex project is without challenges and hurdles. Yes, the engineers are trying to build a 4.5 gen engine without ever built a 1 2 3 gen engine. Now correct me if i am not wrong, does not India have all the engines from the fighter aircraft that come from Russia ?, did they not peep into the engines or ask the Russian's how it was being made ?, if they did not shame on them. I understand the major drawback is in the area of metallurgy, i may be wrong. The approach should be to, Swallow ego, pinpoint critical area's of failure, and work on them diligently and round the clock, i don't care, work 24 hrs with 8 hour shifts, but get it done !, it is a matter of national security, you cannot always rely on Russia for the engines, China is way ahead, and it is sharing all the data/know how with Pakistan, we cannot always aim Pakistan, we need to be better than the chinese, rather let me rephrase, the chinese should lag behind indians and not other way round and that should be the goal. That said, the engineers in india are not bad, but the management should change, old fashioned red tape should be flushed down the toilet, fire people from management positions, get the engine done by the end of 2010, no matter what. But i seriously doubt it, i don't think they have what it takes to make a successful engine, they have already compromised. Let me say this, Failure is a key to success, only if you learn why you have failed. Jai Hind Pavan.

Raman，我理解存在很多困难，任何复杂工程都会存在挑战和困境。确实，工程师位是在努力建造一台4.5代的引擎而他们从来没有建造过1、2、3代的引擎。如果我错了请指出，印度没有从俄罗斯来的战斗机的所有引擎吗？难道他们不去偷看引擎内部或者求教于俄国人是怎么制造的吗？如果他们不做就是可耻的。我理解主要的问题是冶金学方面的，如果我没错的话。这就是说，印度工程师不差，但管理要变，老式的红带子要冲到厕所里，炒掉管理职位的人，在2010年底完成发动机工作，不管什么其他事情。但我深深怀疑，他们没有办法制造一台成功引擎的本事，他们已经气馁了。让我说，失败是成功的关键，只有你知道为什么失败才可能成功。Jai Hind Pavan.
From Seema Singh

February 10, 2009 7:28 AM
Folks, that's a great response; precisely what I wanted to know. Remember, this post is not to belittle Indian engineers, but to provoke them to come out and talk about what ails our defense R&D which is -- come on, accept it -- always unduly delayed. Keep all your views coming, I don't mind being called an 'idiot' or a 'lay person' or a 'fifth grader' in lieu of some insight!

伙计们，这么大的反应！我希望精确知道的。记住，发表的这个看法的不是轻视印度工程师，而是激发他们起来谈论是什么在折磨我们的防务研发——好吧，接受吧——总是无度地延期。有什么想法都说出来，我不在乎什么“白痴”或者“外行”或者“第五类人”以替代看到什么。
From Arun

February 10, 2009 8:26 AM
I appreciate what the author has tried to do, and she is right in saying that the defense projects in India are unduly delayed. But all you need to look at is something as simple as Tata's Nano to see how complicated it is to build anything other than communal politics in the great land of India. Just imagine how much delayed that project has become. That inspite of it being a private company. So imagine how it will be in a government organization.

我首先感谢作者的努力，她说的印度的防备项目总是无度地延迟，这点是对的。
只要想像项目延迟了多少，如果他们是个私营企业的话。因此，想像在政府机构里是什么样吧。

It is the politicians in India who are to blame for every delay in these projects. Of course we were short on technical knowledge when we started the project. In fact we were so short on knowledge that even the Air Force set its requirements too low when the project started , which in turn made the Air Force change its ASR later. Well now that we got on the international aerospace bandwagon, we should be proud that we actually made an engine, which atleast works with 95% of target thrust. We did not know how to make single crystal turbine blades when we started the project. But we know now. The problem with the Kaveri is that it is flat rated and so with the current airflow parameters, it wont have the outright thrust that the Air Force requires. In fact it wont have the outright thrust to give the Tejas a thrust to weight ratio of 1:1. That is a minimum requirement, as a thrust to weight ratio of greater than 1 gives the fighter a substantial advantage in agility as it wont lose speed in a sustained turn , and will have better climb rate and acceleration. The problem with the whole design is that it was optimized for an earlier ASR, and now it is very late to change the design without finalizing the flight control laws for IOC.

是印度的政治家每当项目延迟就进行指责。当我们开始这个项目的时候，我们肯定是缺乏技术知识。事实上，我们如此的缺乏知识，以到空军的需求设置得太低，当项目开始，于是空军就开始不断地更改ASR（武器系统需求）。那么现在，我们在国际航天行列的时候，我们应该感到自豪，我们确实制造了一个引擎，它至少可以工作在 95％的目标推力。当我们开始这个项目的时候，我们不知道如何制造单晶涡轮叶片。但我们现在知道了。卡佛里的问题是，它表现太平庸，以致于用目前的气流参数，它不能满足空军全加力推力需求。事实上，它不会有全加力推力使Tejas（光辉，就是LCA）推重比达到1:1。这是一个最起码的要求，作为推力重量比大于1，会让战斗机在敏捷性上有大幅优势，它不会在转弯时就失去速度，并将有更好的爬升率和加速性。与整个设计的问题是，它是按早期的ASR来优化的，现在已经太迟以至于不能变更设计，为IOC的飞行控制规律的设计没法完成。

I think the best approach would be to use the GE-F404 engine for the first squadron, and then use a higher thrust engine ( F414 or EJ200) for the subsequent 3 or 4 squadrons. After that , we should have the redesigned Kaveri with a higher flow rate which should be comparable to the F414( the next gen F414 will develop 117.6 KN of afterburning thrust) or the EJ230. This way, the Kaveri can be redesigned( and the work should start now) to develop 120KN of thrust. Thus the Tejas( Mark 3) would be able to supercruise and able to carry a higher weapons load. I also suggest adding a bit to the fuselage length, redesigning intakes, adding wingtip pylons, and adding canards for better high AoA handling. This would also benefit with added fuel carrying capacity etc. The point is that more resources need to be poured in, and then we can have a Mark 3 version with capabilites comparable to the best fighters around. The new version would need modifications to the airframe, and flight control system, and can be designed to carry a higher weapons load, and a better avionics system. This would be a logical next step for the MCA which can add stealth, and an engine to make it a twin engined platform. This can be accomplished in the next ten years, now that we have the technology to develop engines, and avionics, and airframes, eventhough our engine tech is not mature yet.

我认为最好的办法是使用的GE - F404引擎装第一个中队，然后使用一个更高推力的发动机（F-414或EJ200）装后续的3~4个中队。之后，我们应该进行重新设计卡佛里，使其具有较高的流速应该可以与F414媲美的（F414的下一代将开发的加力推力117.6千牛）或者EJ230。这样，卡佛里可重新设计（工作现在就应该开始），以发展成推力120KN。因此，Tejas（马克3）将可以超音速巡航，并能够携带较高的武器载荷。我还建议略微增加机身长度，重新设计进气口，增加翼尖挂架，并增加可对大迎角处理能力的鸭翼。这将有利于增加载油量等等。此点是要使更多的油料可以喷入，这样我们就可以拥有一台MARK3的版本，其性能可以和我们周围的最好的战斗机相比美。新版本将需要修改的机身，和飞行控制系统，可以设计更高的携带武器的负载能力，以及更好的航电系统。这将是一个合乎逻辑的下一步使MCA能够增加隐身能力，增加一个发动机使其成为双引擎平台。这个可以在下一个10年完成，现在我们有技术开发发动机，航空电子设备，以及机体，尽管我们的发动机技术并不成熟。

We need better paid engineers, and scientists and more of them. The engineers should have a pay structure which would give them an equal footing with the private sector. I might be tempted to work on this if we have that. For now, I am honing my skills in the automotive industry, and I specialise in computational fluid dynamics and thermal systems and engines, which is kind of what you need to develop jet engines. I am also going to do my second Masters( my first is in Mechanical) in aerospace. So all we need to do is to kick start the project and avoid the infamous Indian bureaucracy(easier said than done). Thank you.
From Abhijit

我们需要让工程师，科学家和其他人有更好的收入。工程师应该有一个工资结构，使他们在与私营部门的平等。我也许很想在这个工作，如果我们有。现在，我在训练汽车行业的技能，并专攻计算流体力学和发动机的热系统，这些都是开发喷气发动机所需要的。我也要做我的第二个研究生学位（我第一次在机械的），航空航天。因此，我们需要的启动该项目，避免臭名昭著的印度官僚机构（谈何容易但可能做不到）的影响。谢谢您。
（待续）

看了LCA延迟印度人的情绪，显示与CD有过之而无不及。有意思。
来不及翻译，请有空的帮补。


Will the LCA ever fly with an Indian engine?
LCA将用印度发动机
Seema Singh - Monday, February 09, 2009 10:27 PM
That's a billion dollar question or least will become one by the time we even have a good working prototype.
Consider this: India's GTRE (Gas Turbine Research Establishment) has spent about $411 million in the development of Kaveri engine since the project began in 1989. It was supposed to power India's much-touted Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), Tejas, which is likely to be inducted into the Indian Air Force in 2011. But it now appears the LCA will have to use a foreign engine (it currently uses a GE engine) until at least the middle of the next decade.
Twenty years and no solid progress in sight!
Now, don't ask me what's the cost and time overrun in LCA. That's another billion-dollar question.

这是个数十亿美元的问题，或至少我们届时将有一个能够很好工作的原型。考虑这点，印度的GTRE ( Gas Turbine Research Establishment燃气涡轮研究机构)从1989年启动的计划，至今已经花费了4.11亿美元用于开发Kaveri发动机。它将用于推动印度大力兜售的轻型战斗机LCA上，Tejas（光辉），它有可能于2011年引入到印度空军。但现在显示LCA可能必须装一台外国发动机（当前使用通用引擎），至少直到下一个十年内都是如此。20年了,看不到可靠的进展!现在不要问我LCA的费用和时间超出预算，那是另一个数十亿美元的问题。
  
Pix courtesy: ADA and Defencetalk
So, when today I got the ‘media' invite for a technical symposium on Feb 13 on the "Latest and future trends in Gas Turbine technology" from Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd., I cringed. （不及物动词 vi.1. 畏缩;蜷缩） Future trends are good to know, but what I'd ideally like to know is our "past" delays and failures in GT and other defense technologies. Alas, no one holds any meeting/symposium/seminar on them!
Can someone tell me why taxpayers' money is spent on buying tools/software whose packs don't even get opened! [Reportedly, allegedly, (call it what you will), some DRDO labs bought expensive and brilliant Matlab tools but left them unopened for years!)
This space is too small and my reporting abilities too frail to dig up the DRDO delays, which incidentally the defense minister was happy to defend last year but blames it on red tape this year.

Ironically, he remembers this now -- at the fag end of his government's term and at the beginning of a high-profile biennial Aero-India 2009, starting on Feb 11 in Bangalore.
If anybody has any insight on these issues, please share!

Share this post: email it! | del.icio.us! | digg it! | newsVine!
Tagged in: GE Kaveri, GTRE, AK Antony, AeroShow 2009, defense, LCA, ADA
42 Comment
From Sanjib Ghosh

February 9, 2009 11:38 PM
Do you understand the complexity of making an engine of a fighter aircraft. "Twenty years and no solid progress in sight!" Do you have any idea, how much knowledge India has gained in this process. If you want progress you have to start one day and failure is a part of it. Today Kaveri is 95% complete. The problem is, it does not have adequate thrust for LCA, as LCA gained weight(Due to change in specification again and again). LCA can fly with Kaveri but you will not get required thrust. Please appreciate the hard woke by our scientists and engineers. Remember, they are working for peanuts just for their pride. This is not as easy writing a junk report like this. You can't make fighter jet engine overnight. I am sure Kaveri will come just wait.

你是否懂得制造飞机引擎的复杂性？“20年看不到实在的进展！”对于印度在这个过程中获得了多少知识，你有什么想法？如果想要进步你必须在某天开始而失败就是其中一部分。今天，Kaveri卡弗里95%完成。问题是，它不能为LCA提供足够的推力，因为LCA重量增加（由于再三更改规格）。LCA可以用Kaveri飞行但你将达不到需要的推力。请感谢我们的科学家和工程师的辛苦工作吧。记住，他们只是为他们的荣誉而工作！
From Bharath

February 10, 2009 12:13 AM
Hi Ms Singh, I guess you are not aware that there are only 4 countries, which makes engines on their own. FOUR!, Now when India took a complex program as this, with no prior experience, it is bound to encounter MANY hurdles. Hell, even the LCA consulting companies, such as GE, Boeing, Snecma, Eurojet Consortium are ready to give away any knowledge. THAT IS THE IMPORTANCE and SECRECY they realize, and will do any thing, so that INDIA does not get its own engine. Considering all this, such half baked report, in a condescending way DOES NOT show any respect to a few people working on the project. Maybe, lets see, I want you to research all you can and talk about digital quadruple flight control system, which INDIANS managed,and it is best out there. Your article looks like a 5th grade babbling that he could not manage to get an extra laddho.
From sanjay

Singh女士好，我猜你不知道只有4个国家能够制造他们自己的（航空）发动机。对，四个！现在当印度进行象这样一个如此复杂的项目，完全没有前面的经验，它必然遇到许多障碍。Hell，即使是LCA的顾问公司如通用电气，波音公司，斯奈克玛，Eurojet联盟也（不）准备出卖任何知识。他们知道它是重要性的机密，将不会做任何（转让）的事情，因此印度才不能得到自己的发动机。考虑这些，如此一个半生不熟的报告，以傲慢的方式对项目上工作的少数人一点也不尊重。也许，我们看看，我希望以你的能力研究再谈论数字四重飞行控制系统，是哪些印度人在做，这样最好。你的文章象一个5年级的小学生的胡说八道而他不能设法获得额外laddho（印度语）。

February 10, 2009 1:45 AM
The article seems to have been written by a lay person who is a complete idiot in defence R&D matters.
From Pavan

这篇文章看起来象一个完全不懂国防研发事务的白痴写的。

February 10, 2009 2:19 AM
Come on now, don't scorn the author like that. What she is asking is a relevant question. 2 decades and no engine ?, i understand its a very complex feat, however, the ministry should have done everything in its hands to get it done, it is a matter of national security. If there is a war, and Russia refuses/delay's engines for the sukhoi's/mig's do you think the enemy country will wait till we get our act together ? and then attack us ?, i am sure it would. The attitude should be, get it done, beg borrow steal or create it, does not matter how much money, that is the attitude which lacks in management, plus the folks working there get in through reservations, who i am sure are the top of their class !!. If i am not wrong, if the present trend continues, the engine will never get built, not until 2 more decades, when everybody is so far ahead, they wont care if we have the tech or not.

好的，不要那样嘲笑作者。好问的问题是一个恰当的问题。20年没有引擎？，我明白它是一个非常复杂的事情，但是部长应该在自己手里把事情做完以使之成功，这是关系到国家安全的大事！如果发生战争，而俄罗斯拒绝/延迟苏霍伊/米格引擎，你想敌国会等我们准备好再来攻击我们？我想它不会的。正确的态度是，要做，而不管是讨来的、借来的、偷来的还是自己做出来的，不在乎用多少钱，这种态度是没有远见的，那些人也在增加他们的技术储备，我肯定他们是最优秀的！如果我没错，如果当前的趋势继续，发动机将不会制造，直到二十年后也不会，当每个人都哪此超前，他们不管我们有没有这种技术。
From Pavan

February 10, 2009 2:28 AM
That said, i would very much like the engine built, no matter what !!.
From Raman

就是说，无论如何，我都很愿意这个发动机建造好。

February 10, 2009 4:30 AM
firstly, for the author, please dont attempt at writing at such important topics without any research. you wasted lot of people's time and with your amateur work, anyone who has followed the story diligently and fairly will be provoked to rebuke. now, Pavan, you are correct when you say that we shall get it done by hook or crook but in time. plz consider that India had no fighter aircraft development experience (except Marut) and we were attempting a 4 or as some analyst say 4.5 gen aircraft. so, dude it will never be an easy task. you seem hell bent on considering Indian scientists and engineers as bad but even those attached to prestigious US defence projects acknowledge the complexity of this task. I am refering you to another report on livemint and quoting the text from its last para...  "Ricardo Traven, chief test pilot of the F/A-18 programme, the twin-engine fighter of Boeing Corp., said building the class of Tejas planes is very difficult. “If you say (you are) building a fourth generation airplane, the first question that comes in mind is, show me your third or second generation plane. If you haven’t built an earlier generation plane, how can you possibly build the next one?” he said."
From Pavan

首先，对于作者，不要企图在没有任何研究的情况下写一个如此重要的题目。你浪费了很多人的时间，你的业余工作任何人一旦勤奋地跟随那个故事，就会被公平地激起指责。现在，Pavan，你是对的当你说我们必须按时做成不管是偷还是骗。请考虑印度没有制造战斗机的经验（除Marut外），我们是在企图制造一架4代或4.5代的飞机。因此，不是一个简单的任务。你不好象不会弯下腰考虑印度科学家和工程师那么差，而喜爱那些有名望的美国防务项目都知道的这个任务的复杂性。我可提供您另一个关于livemint的报告并且引述文本最后一节…
“Ricardo Traven, F/A-18项目，波音双引擎战斗机的首席试飞员说，建造一架这种级别的战斗机是非常困难的。“如果你说（正在说）建造一架四代飞机，第一个跳入脑子的问题是，给我看看你们的二代或三代飞机。如果你不能更早的飞机，你怎么可能建造一个下一代的？”他说。

February 10, 2009 4:47 AM
Raman, I understand their will be difficulties, and any complex project is without challenges and hurdles. Yes, the engineers are trying to build a 4.5 gen engine without ever built a 1 2 3 gen engine. Now correct me if i am not wrong, does not India have all the engines from the fighter aircraft that come from Russia ?, did they not peep into the engines or ask the Russian's how it was being made ?, if they did not shame on them. I understand the major drawback is in the area of metallurgy, i may be wrong. The approach should be to, Swallow ego, pinpoint critical area's of failure, and work on them diligently and round the clock, i don't care, work 24 hrs with 8 hour shifts, but get it done !, it is a matter of national security, you cannot always rely on Russia for the engines, China is way ahead, and it is sharing all the data/know how with Pakistan, we cannot always aim Pakistan, we need to be better than the chinese, rather let me rephrase, the chinese should lag behind indians and not other way round and that should be the goal. That said, the engineers in india are not bad, but the management should change, old fashioned red tape should be flushed down the toilet, fire people from management positions, get the engine done by the end of 2010, no matter what. But i seriously doubt it, i don't think they have what it takes to make a successful engine, they have already compromised. Let me say this, Failure is a key to success, only if you learn why you have failed. Jai Hind Pavan.

Raman，我理解存在很多困难，任何复杂工程都会存在挑战和困境。确实，工程师位是在努力建造一台4.5代的引擎而他们从来没有建造过1、2、3代的引擎。如果我错了请指出，印度没有从俄罗斯来的战斗机的所有引擎吗？难道他们不去偷看引擎内部或者求教于俄国人是怎么制造的吗？如果他们不做就是可耻的。我理解主要的问题是冶金学方面的，如果我没错的话。这就是说，印度工程师不差，但管理要变，老式的红带子要冲到厕所里，炒掉管理职位的人，在2010年底完成发动机工作，不管什么其他事情。但我深深怀疑，他们没有办法制造一台成功引擎的本事，他们已经气馁了。让我说，失败是成功的关键，只有你知道为什么失败才可能成功。Jai Hind Pavan.
From Seema Singh

February 10, 2009 7:28 AM
Folks, that's a great response; precisely what I wanted to know. Remember, this post is not to belittle Indian engineers, but to provoke them to come out and talk about what ails our defense R&D which is -- come on, accept it -- always unduly delayed. Keep all your views coming, I don't mind being called an 'idiot' or a 'lay person' or a 'fifth grader' in lieu of some insight!

伙计们，这么大的反应！我希望精确知道的。记住，发表的这个看法的不是轻视印度工程师，而是激发他们起来谈论是什么在折磨我们的防务研发——好吧，接受吧——总是无度地延期。有什么想法都说出来，我不在乎什么“白痴”或者“外行”或者“第五类人”以替代看到什么。
From Arun

February 10, 2009 8:26 AM
I appreciate what the author has tried to do, and she is right in saying that the defense projects in India are unduly delayed. But all you need to look at is something as simple as Tata's Nano to see how complicated it is to build anything other than communal politics in the great land of India. Just imagine how much delayed that project has become. That inspite of it being a private company. So imagine how it will be in a government organization.

我首先感谢作者的努力，她说的印度的防备项目总是无度地延迟，这点是对的。
只要想像项目延迟了多少，如果他们是个私营企业的话。因此，想像在政府机构里是什么样吧。

It is the politicians in India who are to blame for every delay in these projects. Of course we were short on technical knowledge when we started the project. In fact we were so short on knowledge that even the Air Force set its requirements too low when the project started , which in turn made the Air Force change its ASR later. Well now that we got on the international aerospace bandwagon, we should be proud that we actually made an engine, which atleast works with 95% of target thrust. We did not know how to make single crystal turbine blades when we started the project. But we know now. The problem with the Kaveri is that it is flat rated and so with the current airflow parameters, it wont have the outright thrust that the Air Force requires. In fact it wont have the outright thrust to give the Tejas a thrust to weight ratio of 1:1. That is a minimum requirement, as a thrust to weight ratio of greater than 1 gives the fighter a substantial advantage in agility as it wont lose speed in a sustained turn , and will have better climb rate and acceleration. The problem with the whole design is that it was optimized for an earlier ASR, and now it is very late to change the design without finalizing the flight control laws for IOC.

是印度的政治家每当项目延迟就进行指责。当我们开始这个项目的时候，我们肯定是缺乏技术知识。事实上，我们如此的缺乏知识，以到空军的需求设置得太低，当项目开始，于是空军就开始不断地更改ASR（武器系统需求）。那么现在，我们在国际航天行列的时候，我们应该感到自豪，我们确实制造了一个引擎，它至少可以工作在 95％的目标推力。当我们开始这个项目的时候，我们不知道如何制造单晶涡轮叶片。但我们现在知道了。卡佛里的问题是，它表现太平庸，以致于用目前的气流参数，它不能满足空军全加力推力需求。事实上，它不会有全加力推力使Tejas（光辉，就是LCA）推重比达到1:1。这是一个最起码的要求，作为推力重量比大于1，会让战斗机在敏捷性上有大幅优势，它不会在转弯时就失去速度，并将有更好的爬升率和加速性。与整个设计的问题是，它是按早期的ASR来优化的，现在已经太迟以至于不能变更设计，为IOC的飞行控制规律的设计没法完成。

I think the best approach would be to use the GE-F404 engine for the first squadron, and then use a higher thrust engine ( F414 or EJ200) for the subsequent 3 or 4 squadrons. After that , we should have the redesigned Kaveri with a higher flow rate which should be comparable to the F414( the next gen F414 will develop 117.6 KN of afterburning thrust) or the EJ230. This way, the Kaveri can be redesigned( and the work should start now) to develop 120KN of thrust. Thus the Tejas( Mark 3) would be able to supercruise and able to carry a higher weapons load. I also suggest adding a bit to the fuselage length, redesigning intakes, adding wingtip pylons, and adding canards for better high AoA handling. This would also benefit with added fuel carrying capacity etc. The point is that more resources need to be poured in, and then we can have a Mark 3 version with capabilites comparable to the best fighters around. The new version would need modifications to the airframe, and flight control system, and can be designed to carry a higher weapons load, and a better avionics system. This would be a logical next step for the MCA which can add stealth, and an engine to make it a twin engined platform. This can be accomplished in the next ten years, now that we have the technology to develop engines, and avionics, and airframes, eventhough our engine tech is not mature yet.

我认为最好的办法是使用的GE - F404引擎装第一个中队，然后使用一个更高推力的发动机（F-414或EJ200）装后续的3~4个中队。之后，我们应该进行重新设计卡佛里，使其具有较高的流速应该可以与F414媲美的（F414的下一代将开发的加力推力117.6千牛）或者EJ230。这样，卡佛里可重新设计（工作现在就应该开始），以发展成推力120KN。因此，Tejas（马克3）将可以超音速巡航，并能够携带较高的武器载荷。我还建议略微增加机身长度，重新设计进气口，增加翼尖挂架，并增加可对大迎角处理能力的鸭翼。这将有利于增加载油量等等。此点是要使更多的油料可以喷入，这样我们就可以拥有一台MARK3的版本，其性能可以和我们周围的最好的战斗机相比美。新版本将需要修改的机身，和飞行控制系统，可以设计更高的携带武器的负载能力，以及更好的航电系统。这将是一个合乎逻辑的下一步使MCA能够增加隐身能力，增加一个发动机使其成为双引擎平台。这个可以在下一个10年完成，现在我们有技术开发发动机，航空电子设备，以及机体，尽管我们的发动机技术并不成熟。

We need better paid engineers, and scientists and more of them. The engineers should have a pay structure which would give them an equal footing with the private sector. I might be tempted to work on this if we have that. For now, I am honing my skills in the automotive industry, and I specialise in computational fluid dynamics and thermal systems and engines, which is kind of what you need to develop jet engines. I am also going to do my second Masters( my first is in Mechanical) in aerospace. So all we need to do is to kick start the project and avoid the infamous Indian bureaucracy(easier said than done). Thank you.
From Abhijit

我们需要让工程师，科学家和其他人有更好的收入。工程师应该有一个工资结构，使他们在与私营部门的平等。我也许很想在这个工作，如果我们有。现在，我在训练汽车行业的技能，并专攻计算流体力学和发动机的热系统，这些都是开发喷气发动机所需要的。我也要做我的第二个研究生学位（我第一次在机械的），航空航天。因此，我们需要的启动该项目，避免臭名昭著的印度官僚机构（谈何容易但可能做不到）的影响。谢谢您。
（待续）