加拿大政府：依然留在F-35项目中

另据报道：加拿大国内的航空工业，迄今为止已经获得了4.5亿美元的合同，为F-35项目生产水平尾翼、热管理系统部件等等。

不是刚下过订单吗，折腾的啥

作为中国人一定要和加拿大某些不识时务的无知群众和政党做持之以恒的斗争，为35正名！

最近有2个国家刚下了F-35的新订单：

一个是英国，于2014年11月24日确定了第一阶段14架F-35B的量产订单，此前的4架属于评估测试/培训订单。
http://www.straitstimes.com/news ... elivered-2016-20141

第二是以色列，2014年11月30日正式确定了第2-1阶段14架F-35A的订单，并大致确定了第2-2阶段17架的订单（2017年国防预算制定后再正式签署）。
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/is ... 18292--finance.html

加拿大还没有（或者说还不敢——因为明年大选）做最后的决定。

giantbroom 发表于 2014-12-12 13:53
不是刚下过订单吗，折腾的啥

最近有2个国家刚下了F-35的新订单：

一个是英国，于2014年11月24日确定了第一阶段14架F-35B的量产订单，此前的4架属于评估测试/培训订单。
http://www.straitstimes.com/news ... elivered-2016-20141

第二是以色列，2014年11月30日正式确定了第2-1阶段14架F-35A的订单，并大致确定了第2-2阶段17架的订单（2017年国防预算制定后再正式签署）。
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/is ... 18292--finance.html

加拿大还没有（或者说还不敢——因为明年大选）做最后的决定。

guoxing1987 发表于 2014-12-12 13:54
作为中国人一定要和加拿大某些不识时务的无知群众和政党做持之以恒的斗争，为35正名！

哈哈哈哈，说得好

当然，“不识时务的无知群众”需要交税的，他们有理由担心F-35买的值不值

因此对于应对恐怖主义、执行国际事务（如奥运会安保）、人道主义救灾等任务而言，F-35比其他战机优势不大。
-------------------------
哈哈，对黑子们真是“啪啪啪”啊。

楼主帖子及时，以正视听！
隔壁帖标题断章取义混淆视听，标题党害人呐。

Each was assessed on its ability to carry out six mission sets including defence of Canadian airspace, responding to an “international event”, such as the Olympics, in Canada or a terrorist attack, peace enforcement, humanitarian disaster relief and state-on-state war fighting.All aircraft were deemed low-risk candidates to perform each of the missions up to 2030 and beyond, except in fighting another peer nation. In that category, all the aircraft were deemed a higher risk platform beyond 2030 and none distinguished itself.

确实有人断章取义啊，红字啥意思？



别人国防部到某人嘴里就成反对派了，还能忽悠版主加分，真是高~

岚天使 发表于 2014-12-12 14:50
楼主帖子及时，以正视听！
隔壁帖标题断章取义混淆视听，标题党害人呐。

Each was assessed on its ability to carry out six mission sets including defence of Canadian airspace, responding to an “international event”, such as the Olympics, in Canada or a terrorist attack, peace enforcement, humanitarian disaster relief and state-on-state war fighting.All aircraft were deemed low-risk candidates to perform each of the missions up to 2030 and beyond, except in fighting another peer nation. In that category, all the aircraft were deemed a higher risk platform beyond 2030 and none distinguished itself.

确实有人断章取义啊，红字啥意思？



别人国防部到某人嘴里就成反对派了，还能忽悠版主加分，真是高~

LZ把加拿大国防部的评估报告说成是”反对派的报告”，？以为别人不懂英文混肴视听？



原文：http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/canada-rates-f-35a-rivals-equal-on-most-missions-407025/
报告 : http://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/1377585/12-08-annual-update-2014-en.pdf
加拿大国营广播公司文章连接: http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/f-35-purchase-cost-could-rise-by-1b-to-replace-lost-aircraft-1.2868894


LZ把加拿大国防部的评估报告说成是”反对派的报告”，？以为别人不懂英文混肴视听？

A new Canadian government report suggests other fighter jets are just as capable as the Lockheed Martin F-35A at fulfilling the nation’s most likely mission needs, potentially opening the door to a competitive acquisition process to replace a fleet of 77 Boeing CF-18s.

原文：http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/canada-rates-f-35a-rivals-equal-on-most-missions-407025/
报告 : http://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/1377585/12-08-annual-update-2014-en.pdf
加拿大国营广播公司文章连接: http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/f-35-purchase-cost-could-rise-by-1b-to-replace-lost-aircraft-1.2868894

加拿大不太可能发生国与国之间的战争，因此对于应对恐怖主义、执行国际事务（如奥运会安保）、人道主义救灾等任务而言，F-35比其他战机优势不大。
===============
这话半点都没错，以加拿大面临的国际形势和他们空军要承担的任务，F16/18这玩意都嫌浪费，他们最需要的是运输机和直升机，作战飞机中类似蝎子这样的有大续航力的战场支援飞机比空战为主任务的飞机更有价值。F35这东西对他们来说真没啥用处。
但是要考虑到南边邻居美国政治上和外交上的关系，这东西就非要不可了，正如不少网友鼓噪的买苏35表态一样，同样是35，加拿大也需要买这玩意表明自己态度。

无敌五代半 发表于 2014-12-12 14:19
因此对于应对恐怖主义、执行国际事务（如奥运会安保）、人道主义救灾等任务而言，F-35比其他战机优势不大。 ...
“啪啪啪”对某些人被耍还不自知确实很合适。

两国交战。

Each was assessed on its ability to carry out six mission sets including defence of Canadian air ...
呵呵，你的帖子里对六项任务故意只挑了三项说，“包括国土防空、紧急应变和外国交战”，而对反恐、人道主义救援和维和只字不提，带有明显倾向性，那种夹带私货的帖子版主能不封吗？
楼主针对你那误导性的帖子开新帖说明，说出你故意隐藏的东西，版主适当加分有何不可？
现在你倒是知道把六项任务完完整整贴出来了，你编辑自己主帖的时候干嘛去了？

第一，想当然的你是，我列的是flightglobal的报道，和CBC提到的“国防部文件”根本不是同一个文件，我说麻烦您也仔细看看你给出那个PDF，完全是在说采购F-35的财政资金问题，哪里提到flightglobal新闻里说的“和超级大黄蜂、阵风、台风”的作战能力对比了？

另外一个报道说的更清楚：““The mission needs analysis undertaken as part of the evaluation of options makes clear that Canadian engagement in future state-on-state conflicts will be highly unlikely,” a report called The Evaluation of Options for the Replacement of the CF-18 Fighter Fleet says”
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/n ... 5s/article22036016/

看到没？这份报告名字叫《The Evaluation of Options for the Replacement of the CF-18 Fighter Fleet》，和你列的是同一份报告？？

你看看你列的是啥：

QQ截图20141212165819.png (59.06 KB, 下载次数: 1)

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2014-12-12 16:54 上传

第二，关于为什么对于“国与国之间的战争”而言，F-35比其他飞机强得多，雅虎原文：
“The analysis found the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter, Eurofighter Typhoon, Dassault Rafale and Boeing Super Hornet to be capable of accomplishing most mission tasks envisioned by Canadian military leaders.

The only exception would be going to war with another state, but the reports' authors concluded that was an "exceptionally unlikely" scenario.”
http://news.yahoo.com/no-edge-f- ... port-194652889.html
说的十分明确，“国与国的战争”，不包含在“F-35比其他战机优势不大”的范围中。


第三，关于这份报告的作者都是什么人：
http://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/app-acq/documents/cf18-eval-eng.pdf
“The Panel members were: ………… Rod Monette, Fellow Chartered Accountant and former Comptroller General of Canada”

其他人就不说了，说说这个Rod Monette，前加拿大总审计长，2012年那次风波的时候就对F-35采购开骂，这回又冒充“独立”专家来写报告，呵呵呵呵

“former federal comptroller-general Rod Monette, who also served as a senior bureaucrat in National Defence; and University of Ottawa professor Philippe Lagassé, an outspoken critic of the jet procurement.”http://www.theglobeandmail.com/n ... ion/article6260601/

Roboroach 发表于 2014-12-12 15:23
Each was assessed on its ability to carry out six mission sets including defence of Canadian air ...

第一，想当然的你是，我列的是flightglobal的报道，和CBC提到的“国防部文件”根本不是同一个文件，我说麻烦您也仔细看看你给出那个PDF，完全是在说采购F-35的财政资金问题，哪里提到flightglobal新闻里说的“和超级大黄蜂、阵风、台风”的作战能力对比了？

另外一个报道说的更清楚：““The mission needs analysis undertaken as part of the evaluation of options makes clear that Canadian engagement in future state-on-state conflicts will be highly unlikely,” a report called The Evaluation of Options for the Replacement of the CF-18 Fighter Fleet says”
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/n ... 5s/article22036016/

看到没？这份报告名字叫《The Evaluation of Options for the Replacement of the CF-18 Fighter Fleet》，和你列的是同一份报告？？

你看看你列的是啥：

QQ截图20141212165819.png (59.06 KB, 下载次数: 1)

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2014-12-12 16:54 上传

第二，关于为什么对于“国与国之间的战争”而言，F-35比其他飞机强得多，雅虎原文：
“The analysis found the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter, Eurofighter Typhoon, Dassault Rafale and Boeing Super Hornet to be capable of accomplishing most mission tasks envisioned by Canadian military leaders.

The only exception would be going to war with another state, but the reports' authors concluded that was an "exceptionally unlikely" scenario.”
http://news.yahoo.com/no-edge-f- ... port-194652889.html
说的十分明确，“国与国的战争”，不包含在“F-35比其他战机优势不大”的范围中。


第三，关于这份报告的作者都是什么人：
http://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/app-acq/documents/cf18-eval-eng.pdf
“The Panel members were: ………… Rod Monette, Fellow Chartered Accountant and former Comptroller General of Canada”

其他人就不说了，说说这个Rod Monette，前加拿大总审计长，2012年那次风波的时候就对F-35采购开骂，这回又冒充“独立”专家来写报告，呵呵呵呵

“former federal comptroller-general Rod Monette, who also served as a senior bureaucrat in National Defence; and University of Ottawa professor Philippe Lagassé, an outspoken critic of the jet procurement.”http://www.theglobeandmail.com/n ... ion/article6260601/

想象一下如果F35下马，情况会这样？

岚天使 发表于 2014-12-12 16:34
呵呵，你的帖子里对六项任务故意只挑了三项说，“包括国土防空、紧急应变和外国交战”，而对反恐、人道主 ...
嘿，我没说的东西多了，要整篇翻译你来干？一架战斗机最体现高性能是哪方面？国土防空、紧急应变和外国交战呢？还是反恐、人道主义救援和维和啊？别告诉我说你搞不清楚。故意把政府报告扭曲成反对派又怎么算？还是你选择性失明？

Analysis undertaken by the Department of National Defence found that it’s “highly unlikely” Canada would find itself participating in first-strike conflict with other countries that have sophisticated air-defence systems – a scenario where the Lockheed Martin F-35’s vaunted stealth capabilities and other features might be most useful.

别告诉我说你认为DND支持的一个评估委员会是政府反对派啊，你搞清楚加拿大反对派是什么没有？

it’s “highly unlikely” Canada would find itself participating in first-strike conflict with other countries that have sophisticated air-defence systems – a scenario where the Lockheed Martin F-35’s vaunted stealth capabilities and other features might be most useful."
不考虑与他国交战 - 得面对一个复杂防空系统的脚本 - 这是F-35相对于其他候选机的差异(隐身能力)


至于你的截图是这篇: http://s3.documentcloud.org/docu ... -update-2014-en.pdf,主要是在说选用F35的话他未来使用期里高昂的费用

呵呵，反对派的问题是我写的着急了，我对前加拿大总审计长Rod Monette是不是自由派记混了，只对他的过去行为印象深刻；这一点我道歉。相比之下，你自己的 “添油加醋” 的 “造谣” 又是 “居心何在” ？？

你给大家解释下你自己开的帖子里大言不惭的说
“加拿大政府评估报告认为F-35并不比三代半对手有任何优势”
http://lt.cjdby.net/thread-1938611-1-1.html


“A new Canadian government report suggests other fighter jets are just as capable as the Lockheed Martin F-35A at fulfilling the nation’s most likely mission needs, potentially opening the door to a competitive acquisition process to replace a fleet of 77 Boeing CF-18s.”
你给翻译下“most likely”是什么意思？

为什么如此之多的报道里，都明确说明F-35在国与国之间的战争中有明显的优势？“执行人道主义救援任务时，F-35和三代半没差别” 就是你在你自己的贴子里论证 “粽子最终超越F-35不是问题” 的证据？

至少，我可没像某人那样，PDF都没看两眼就乱发帖，两个完全不同的报告都混为一谈

Roboroach 发表于 2014-12-12 18:23
还在造谣，Flight Global第一句话是什么？你造谣说是政府反对派居心何在？

呵呵，反对派的问题是我写的着急了，我对前加拿大总审计长Rod Monette是不是自由派记混了，只对他的过去行为印象深刻；这一点我道歉。相比之下，你自己的 “添油加醋” 的 “造谣” 又是 “居心何在” ？？

你给大家解释下你自己开的帖子里大言不惭的说
“加拿大政府评估报告认为F-35并不比三代半对手有任何优势”
http://lt.cjdby.net/thread-1938611-1-1.html


“A new Canadian government report suggests other fighter jets are just as capable as the Lockheed Martin F-35A at fulfilling the nation’s most likely mission needs, potentially opening the door to a competitive acquisition process to replace a fleet of 77 Boeing CF-18s.”
你给翻译下“most likely”是什么意思？

为什么如此之多的报道里，都明确说明F-35在国与国之间的战争中有明显的优势？“执行人道主义救援任务时，F-35和三代半没差别” 就是你在你自己的贴子里论证 “粽子最终超越F-35不是问题” 的证据？

至少，我可没像某人那样，PDF都没看两眼就乱发帖，两个完全不同的报告都混为一谈

none distinguished itself.
别告诉我说你不懂这句话什么意思，哪来的F-35明显优势？又来脑补了？

TAOG 发表于 2014-12-12 18:31
额,你这篇flightglobal的报道主要是对应这篇: http://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/app-acq/stamgp-lamsmp/eorf ...
我原贴有两段，一段是flightglobal报道加拿大国防部对F-35跟其他4个三代半竞争对手的评估。第二句是根据另外一篇CBC文章有关于F-35超出预算十亿以上，一共3个链接，后两个是关于预算的。

Roboroach 发表于 2014-12-12 18:56
我原贴有两段，一段是flightglobal报道加拿大国防部对F-35跟其他4个三代半竞争对手的评估。第二句是根据 ...
好的,我晚点在看仔细点,谢了

TAOG 发表于 2014-12-12 18:57
好的,我晚点在看仔细点,谢了
原贴在这：http://lt.cjdby.net/thread-1938611-1-1.html

2014-12-12 19:14 上传

别在TAOG面前给自己贴金，看看10楼是谁根本没看报告的内容，就随便把一个报告当成另一个报告给贴上来了{:soso_e120:}

Roboroach 发表于 2014-12-12 18:56
我原贴有两段，一段是flightglobal报道加拿大国防部对F-35跟其他4个三代半竞争对手的评估。第二句是根据 ...
我再粗看了一遍报告,2020~2030和beyond 2030似乎在higher level threat的State-on-State War Fighting还是有高低风险之分,當然他沒列出來是哪个高哪个低

额大概吧...

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/po ... ost-missions-report

刚搜到的,这篇新闻就讲的比较明白了,不考虑cost下,就像偶上面说的在政府报告中指出在跟他国交战的项目上四款候选机的确有差距,但没有直接指出哪一款飞机是对应到比较高风险而哪一款是低风险

（"The report shows all four aircraft were capable of protecting Canadian airspace and performing four of the other missions with minimal risk. “This was due to the fact that most of these missions involve relatively low level of threat and are less onerous for fighter aircraft,” the report says.

The exception was war with another country, where some of the aircraft were at greater risk than others “due to the higher level of potential threat confronting fighter aircraft in that mission,” the report says. There are also concerns about countries rolling out new high-tech defences.

The report does not specifically identify which of the four fighter jets is best or worst, only that at least one of the planes would face significant risks in fighting another country in the 2020-2030 timeframe, and at least one would face high risks beyond 2030."
讲的应该是报告step one的评比

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Roboroach 发表于 2014-12-12 18:56
我原贴有两段，一段是flightglobal报道加拿大国防部对F-35跟其他4个三代半竞争对手的评估。第二句是根据 ...

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/po ... ost-missions-report

刚搜到的,这篇新闻就讲的比较明白了,不考虑cost下,就像偶上面说的在政府报告中指出在跟他国交战的项目上四款候选机的确有差距,但没有直接指出哪一款飞机是对应到比较高风险而哪一款是低风险

（"The report shows all four aircraft were capable of protecting Canadian airspace and performing four of the other missions with minimal risk. “This was due to the fact that most of these missions involve relatively low level of threat and are less onerous for fighter aircraft,” the report says.

The exception was war with another country, where some of the aircraft were at greater risk than others “due to the higher level of potential threat confronting fighter aircraft in that mission,” the report says. There are also concerns about countries rolling out new high-tech defences.

The report does not specifically identify which of the four fighter jets is best or worst, only that at least one of the planes would face significant risks in fighting another country in the 2020-2030 timeframe, and at least one would face high risks beyond 2030."
讲的应该是报告step one的评比

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）

Deltao 发表于 2014-12-12 14:09
最近有2个国家刚下了F-35的新订单：

一个是英国，于2014年11月24日确定了第一阶段14架F-35B的量产订 ...
谢资料，我记得前段时间看到晨风的消息，说是加拿大用某9批次换了7批次，具体数量忘了

Roboroach 发表于 2014-12-12 19:00
原贴在这：http://lt.cjdby.net/thread-1938611-1-1.html
怎被锁了？


                        

大家拿，大家拿，肥电还要多少投资，都拿去吧。

不管兔小将环球时报再怎么黑，大家拿都会买F35

既然知道结果了还有啥好争的么