超级军网MD眼里的日俄岛屿争端
来源：百度文库 编辑：超级军网 时间：2024/04/29 21:36:18
龙腾
美国《The Diplomat》
日期：2013年1月24日
标题：Asia’s Other Island Spat…Between Japan and Russia
链接：http://thediplomat.com/2013/01/2 ... apan-rapprochement/
Asia’s Other Island Spat…Between Japan and Russia
亚洲其他的岛屿争端。。。日本大战俄罗斯
By J. Berkshire Miller
As tensions mount in the East and South China Seas, a dispute over islands between Tokyo and Moscow has also been left unresolved.
随着中国东海及南海的紧张局势的加剧，东京与莫斯科之间的岛屿争端被人们置之不理了。
Earlier this month, former Japanese Prime Minister Yoshiro Mori appeared on national television and drew a line on the map separating Japan from Russia. Mori’s line was directly northeast of three of the disputed isles (Kunashiri, Shikotan and Habomai) but intentionally stopped short of including the largest island, Etorofu, which remained in Russian territory and signaled Mori’s desire to compromise with Russia. Mori justified this concession as a “realistic approach” to resolving the long standing territorial row between the two countries.
这个月早些时候，日本前首相森喜郎上了国家电视，并且在地图上划了一条，将日本与俄罗斯分离开来的线。森喜郎画的的线，直接划出了东北部的有争议的群岛中的三个（国后岛、色丹岛和齿舞岛）,但故意没有包括最大的岛——择捉岛，而是把它留在了俄罗斯的领土上，暗示了森喜郎想与俄罗斯达成妥协的愿望。森喜郎将这一让步举动当作解决两国之间，长期以来的领土纷争的“务实之举”。
Over the years, there have been a host of diplomatic attempts by both sides to determine who has legal sovereignty over the islands. Unfortunately, the two remain at loggerheads and firmly entrenched in their positions which are muddied by a series of historical treaties dating back to 1855. Tokyo claims that the sovereignty of the Northern Territories (referred to as Southern Kurils by Russia) has never been debatable and that the four disputed islands have been part of Japan since the early 19th century. This is confirmed, according to Japan, by— among other treaties— the Shimoda Treaty of 1855 and the Portsmouth Treaty of 1905 at the conclusion of the Russo-Japanese war. For its part, Russia pays little heed to Japan’s claims on the islands, instead pointing to a number of international treaties—including the Yalta Agreement (1945) and Potsdam Declaration (1945)— as proof of its sovereignty. Russia also emphasizes that the 1951 San Francisco Treaty serves as legal evidence that Japan acknowledged Russian sovereignty over the islands, a claim Tokyo vehemently denies.
.
多年以来，双方进行一系列的外交举措试图理清到底哪一方对该群岛拥有合法主权。不幸的是，两方在这一问题上仍旧保持对立，并各自固守着由一系列可追溯自1855年的历史条约搅浑的立场。东京声称北方四岛（俄罗斯称之为南千岛群岛）的主权从来不具有争议，自19世纪早期，此具有争议的四个岛屿就属于日本。就日本而言，通过一些其他条约中的1855年的《下田条约》和1905年，作为日俄战争结局的《朴茨茅斯条约》，对日本的主权诉求加以确认。就其本身而言，俄罗斯对于日本有关这些岛屿的主权诉求并不太在意，反而指出许多国际条约——包括雅尔塔协议（1945年）和波茨坦公告（1945年）——作为其主权的证据。俄罗斯同样强调，1951年的旧金山条约就是日本承认俄罗斯对这些岛屿的主权的合法证据。对于俄罗斯有关日本承认俄罗斯对这些岛屿的主权的声明，日本方面表达强烈否认。
Almost immediately following the Mori proposal, the administration of new Prime Minister Shinzo Abe rebuked the comments and insisted that Japan would maintain its official policy that all four islands be returned. Chief Cabinet Secretary Yoshihide Suga underscored this with a caveat: “(The government) will firmly maintain its basic policy, which is to confirm that the four islands belong to Japan and thereafter conclude a peace treaty with Russia. Then we can be flexible over the timing of actual reversions of those islands.” But Tokyo is not pouring cold water on resolving the spat and has agreed to send Mori, who has a strong relationship with Russian President Vladimir Putin, to Russia in early February to kick start negotiations. There are also reports that Abe is hoping to travel to Russia later in the spring with the intent of making concrete progress on resolving the dispute.
几乎紧跟着森喜郎的建议，日本政府新任首相安倍晋三谴责了这些评论，并坚持日本将保持其官方政策，那就是要收回所有四个岛屿。内阁官房长官菅义伟通过警告强调了这点：“（政府）将坚定的维护其基本政策，那就是坚定地认为这四个岛屿归日本所有，之后与俄罗斯达成一项和平条约。那么我们在处理这些岛屿的实际回归日期上，能进行灵活的操作。”但是东京在解决这一争端的问题上，并没有泼冷水；并且已经同意在2月初，将派遣与俄罗斯总统弗拉基米尔普京关系融洽的森喜郎赴俄启动谈判工作。同样有报道称，安倍希望稍后在春天的时候，能够访问俄罗斯，旨在为解决这些争端争取一些实质性的进步。
Unfortunately, we have seen this narrative before, most notably in 1998 when Japanese Prime Minister Ryutaro Hashimoto sought to use his personal friendship with Russian President Boris Yeltsin to reach a grand bargain. In what would come to be known as the “Kawana Proposal,” Tokyo proposed the two sides demarcate their borders with the Northern Territories belonging to Japan. In return, Hashimoto promised Yeltsin that Japan would agree to continued Russian administration and joint economic development of the islands. Hashimoto’s also promised that Japan would sign a peace treaty with Russia if Yeltsin agreed to the proposal. In other words, Hashimoto offered to delay tangible sovereignty in favor of legal recognition. However, the gambit failed: Russia rejected the proposal later that fall.
.
不幸的是，我们之前就看过这种故事，最明显的是发生在1998年，日本首相桥本龙太郎试图利用他与俄罗斯总统鲍里斯叶利钦之间的个人友谊达到一笔大买卖。在后来大家知道的“川奈提议”里，由东京提出的双方边界中，北方的领土属于日本。作为回报，桥本许诺叶利钦说，日本将同意俄罗斯继续管理并对共同参与这些岛屿的经济发展。桥本同样许诺道，如果叶利钦同意这些建议，日本将会与俄罗斯签订和平条约。换一句话说，桥本为了得到法律认可的主权而推迟了对实际主权的获取。然而，这个策略失败了：俄罗斯稍后，在秋天拒绝了这个提议。
But the geopolitical scene in North East Asia has changed dramatically since 1998 and resolving the Kuril row is not just a priority for Japan anymore. Putin indicated last year that he was committed to “permanently resolving” the dispute. Amid debate about a renaissance of U.S. power in Asia, Putin has been thinking about his own “pivot” to the Far East. Russia has always maintained its historical legacy as a Pacific power, but realistically this has largely been ignored for decades. Japan meanwhile has been challenged vigorously over the past several months by China, South Korea and Russia on its territorial disputes. This, coupled with China’s increased assertiveness on security policy in the region, has created an environment with new challenges that Japan and Russia must confront. Both countries are facing an uncertain future as Northeast Asia continues to morph into the most strategically important region in the world.
但自1998年以来，东北亚的地缘政治面貌发生了巨大的变化。解决有关千岛群岛的争议，再也不仅仅只是日本需要优先考虑的问题了。普京去年发表声明说，他致力于“永久解决”这一争议。在提及美国军事力量重返亚洲这个话题时，普京一直在思考自己在远东的“轴心”。俄罗斯一直致力于保持其作为一个太平洋大国的历史遗产，但实际上，几十年来，这已经在很大程度上被忽视了。与此同时，日本在过去几个月中，在其领土争端上，受到了来自中国、韩国和俄罗斯的积极挑战。这些，外加中国有关该地区的安全政策的不断增加的信心，已经造成一种日本和俄罗斯必须面对的，充满着新的挑战的环境。随着东北亚逐渐演变成世界上最具有重要战略意义的地区，这两个国家都面临着一个不确定的未来。
China’s rapid growth presents challenges and opportunities for Russia and Japan. Both countries have significant investments with Beijing and rely on having access – even if limited – to the Chinese market. Despite this, there is clear recognition in Japan and Russia that a Sino-centric continent is not in their interests.
中国的快速发展，给俄罗斯和日本都带来了机遇跟挑战。这两个国家都有着来自北京的显著的投资并且都依靠着——即使非常有限——的中国市场份额。尽管如此，日本和俄罗斯都非常清醒地认识到，以中国为中心的亚洲大陆，都不是他们的利益所在。
But China is not the only issue policymakers in Tokyo and Moscow are concentrating on. Asia’s security infrastructure has become increasingly dynamic and fragile and is riddled with potential landmines for both states including a truculent regime in North Korea, increased competition for resources and influence in Central Asia and transnational threats such as international terrorism and organized crime. Moreover, Russia and Japan are both keen to enhance their strategic partnership on energy, which has been held hostage by their territorial dispute.
但是中国并不是日本和俄罗斯的决策者们所关切的唯一问题。亚洲的安全体系已经变得越来越动荡、脆弱，并对于这两个国家来说，亚洲的安全体系充斥着潜在的地雷，其中包括好战的北朝鲜政权、在能源方面竞争的增加、在中亚的影响力以及跨国威胁例如国际恐怖主义以及有组织犯罪。此外，俄罗斯和日本都热衷于加强两国之间的已受制于两国领土争端的能源战略合作伙伴关系。
The substantial and growing overlapping interests make it increasingly important for Moscow and Tokyo to acquire the diplomatic courage necessary to resolve their territorial dispute and move closer to a strategic partnership. Unfortunately, we are already seeing the trenches forming as both sides try to appease their domestic electorate which is opposed to concessions on the islands. Earlier today, for instance, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov belittled Japan’s position on the island dispute and called on it to accept legal reality. Japan also seems to be hedging as it also fears too great of a compromise may also embolden its rivals in other territorial disputes.
实质性的以及日益增长的重叠的利益使得，获取能解决两国领土纷争的外交勇气以及促进两国间的战略伙伴关系，对于莫斯科和东京来说，越来越重要。不幸的是，因为双方试图通过反对对岛屿主权的让步来安抚国内的选民，我们已经能够看到两国之间战壕的形成。例如，今天早些时候，俄罗斯外长拉夫罗夫贬低了日本在岛屿争端上的位置，并呼吁日本接受现实。因为担心做出太大的让步，可能助长其他与日本有领土争端的对手的气焰，日本同样似乎不愿做出什么让步。
A long term solution remains problematic, and there are risks involved in such an initiative, but the potential benefits of a partnership between Tokyo and Moscow should prompt both sides to make a serious effort at a rapprochement. Even in the absence of this, Tokyo and Moscow should still take tangible confidence building steps such as increased people-to-people ties on the islands and potentially refloating the idea of a free trade zone and joint development projects. Stagnation is no longer a viable option.
一个长远的解决方案仍然是有问题的，而且参与这样一个倡议是有风险的，但东京和莫斯科之间的合作的潜在好处应该能促使双方在建立友好关系方面，做出真诚的努力。即使没有这个，东京和莫斯科仍应采取切实建立信任的措施，如在这些岛屿的问题上加强民间来往以及潜在的重振自由贸易区的想法和联合开发项目。停滞不再是一个可行的选项。龙腾
美国《The Diplomat》
日期：2013年1月24日
标题：Asia’s Other Island Spat…Between Japan and Russia
链接：http://thediplomat.com/2013/01/2 ... apan-rapprochement/
Asia’s Other Island Spat…Between Japan and Russia
亚洲其他的岛屿争端。。。日本大战俄罗斯
By J. Berkshire Miller
As tensions mount in the East and South China Seas, a dispute over islands between Tokyo and Moscow has also been left unresolved.
随着中国东海及南海的紧张局势的加剧，东京与莫斯科之间的岛屿争端被人们置之不理了。
Earlier this month, former Japanese Prime Minister Yoshiro Mori appeared on national television and drew a line on the map separating Japan from Russia. Mori’s line was directly northeast of three of the disputed isles (Kunashiri, Shikotan and Habomai) but intentionally stopped short of including the largest island, Etorofu, which remained in Russian territory and signaled Mori’s desire to compromise with Russia. Mori justified this concession as a “realistic approach” to resolving the long standing territorial row between the two countries.
这个月早些时候，日本前首相森喜郎上了国家电视，并且在地图上划了一条，将日本与俄罗斯分离开来的线。森喜郎画的的线，直接划出了东北部的有争议的群岛中的三个（国后岛、色丹岛和齿舞岛）,但故意没有包括最大的岛——择捉岛，而是把它留在了俄罗斯的领土上，暗示了森喜郎想与俄罗斯达成妥协的愿望。森喜郎将这一让步举动当作解决两国之间，长期以来的领土纷争的“务实之举”。
Over the years, there have been a host of diplomatic attempts by both sides to determine who has legal sovereignty over the islands. Unfortunately, the two remain at loggerheads and firmly entrenched in their positions which are muddied by a series of historical treaties dating back to 1855. Tokyo claims that the sovereignty of the Northern Territories (referred to as Southern Kurils by Russia) has never been debatable and that the four disputed islands have been part of Japan since the early 19th century. This is confirmed, according to Japan, by— among other treaties— the Shimoda Treaty of 1855 and the Portsmouth Treaty of 1905 at the conclusion of the Russo-Japanese war. For its part, Russia pays little heed to Japan’s claims on the islands, instead pointing to a number of international treaties—including the Yalta Agreement (1945) and Potsdam Declaration (1945)— as proof of its sovereignty. Russia also emphasizes that the 1951 San Francisco Treaty serves as legal evidence that Japan acknowledged Russian sovereignty over the islands, a claim Tokyo vehemently denies.
.
多年以来，双方进行一系列的外交举措试图理清到底哪一方对该群岛拥有合法主权。不幸的是，两方在这一问题上仍旧保持对立，并各自固守着由一系列可追溯自1855年的历史条约搅浑的立场。东京声称北方四岛（俄罗斯称之为南千岛群岛）的主权从来不具有争议，自19世纪早期，此具有争议的四个岛屿就属于日本。就日本而言，通过一些其他条约中的1855年的《下田条约》和1905年，作为日俄战争结局的《朴茨茅斯条约》，对日本的主权诉求加以确认。就其本身而言，俄罗斯对于日本有关这些岛屿的主权诉求并不太在意，反而指出许多国际条约——包括雅尔塔协议（1945年）和波茨坦公告（1945年）——作为其主权的证据。俄罗斯同样强调，1951年的旧金山条约就是日本承认俄罗斯对这些岛屿的主权的合法证据。对于俄罗斯有关日本承认俄罗斯对这些岛屿的主权的声明，日本方面表达强烈否认。
Almost immediately following the Mori proposal, the administration of new Prime Minister Shinzo Abe rebuked the comments and insisted that Japan would maintain its official policy that all four islands be returned. Chief Cabinet Secretary Yoshihide Suga underscored this with a caveat: “(The government) will firmly maintain its basic policy, which is to confirm that the four islands belong to Japan and thereafter conclude a peace treaty with Russia. Then we can be flexible over the timing of actual reversions of those islands.” But Tokyo is not pouring cold water on resolving the spat and has agreed to send Mori, who has a strong relationship with Russian President Vladimir Putin, to Russia in early February to kick start negotiations. There are also reports that Abe is hoping to travel to Russia later in the spring with the intent of making concrete progress on resolving the dispute.
几乎紧跟着森喜郎的建议，日本政府新任首相安倍晋三谴责了这些评论，并坚持日本将保持其官方政策，那就是要收回所有四个岛屿。内阁官房长官菅义伟通过警告强调了这点：“（政府）将坚定的维护其基本政策，那就是坚定地认为这四个岛屿归日本所有，之后与俄罗斯达成一项和平条约。那么我们在处理这些岛屿的实际回归日期上，能进行灵活的操作。”但是东京在解决这一争端的问题上，并没有泼冷水；并且已经同意在2月初，将派遣与俄罗斯总统弗拉基米尔普京关系融洽的森喜郎赴俄启动谈判工作。同样有报道称，安倍希望稍后在春天的时候，能够访问俄罗斯，旨在为解决这些争端争取一些实质性的进步。
Unfortunately, we have seen this narrative before, most notably in 1998 when Japanese Prime Minister Ryutaro Hashimoto sought to use his personal friendship with Russian President Boris Yeltsin to reach a grand bargain. In what would come to be known as the “Kawana Proposal,” Tokyo proposed the two sides demarcate their borders with the Northern Territories belonging to Japan. In return, Hashimoto promised Yeltsin that Japan would agree to continued Russian administration and joint economic development of the islands. Hashimoto’s also promised that Japan would sign a peace treaty with Russia if Yeltsin agreed to the proposal. In other words, Hashimoto offered to delay tangible sovereignty in favor of legal recognition. However, the gambit failed: Russia rejected the proposal later that fall.
.
不幸的是，我们之前就看过这种故事，最明显的是发生在1998年，日本首相桥本龙太郎试图利用他与俄罗斯总统鲍里斯叶利钦之间的个人友谊达到一笔大买卖。在后来大家知道的“川奈提议”里，由东京提出的双方边界中，北方的领土属于日本。作为回报，桥本许诺叶利钦说，日本将同意俄罗斯继续管理并对共同参与这些岛屿的经济发展。桥本同样许诺道，如果叶利钦同意这些建议，日本将会与俄罗斯签订和平条约。换一句话说，桥本为了得到法律认可的主权而推迟了对实际主权的获取。然而，这个策略失败了：俄罗斯稍后，在秋天拒绝了这个提议。
But the geopolitical scene in North East Asia has changed dramatically since 1998 and resolving the Kuril row is not just a priority for Japan anymore. Putin indicated last year that he was committed to “permanently resolving” the dispute. Amid debate about a renaissance of U.S. power in Asia, Putin has been thinking about his own “pivot” to the Far East. Russia has always maintained its historical legacy as a Pacific power, but realistically this has largely been ignored for decades. Japan meanwhile has been challenged vigorously over the past several months by China, South Korea and Russia on its territorial disputes. This, coupled with China’s increased assertiveness on security policy in the region, has created an environment with new challenges that Japan and Russia must confront. Both countries are facing an uncertain future as Northeast Asia continues to morph into the most strategically important region in the world.
但自1998年以来，东北亚的地缘政治面貌发生了巨大的变化。解决有关千岛群岛的争议，再也不仅仅只是日本需要优先考虑的问题了。普京去年发表声明说，他致力于“永久解决”这一争议。在提及美国军事力量重返亚洲这个话题时，普京一直在思考自己在远东的“轴心”。俄罗斯一直致力于保持其作为一个太平洋大国的历史遗产，但实际上，几十年来，这已经在很大程度上被忽视了。与此同时，日本在过去几个月中，在其领土争端上，受到了来自中国、韩国和俄罗斯的积极挑战。这些，外加中国有关该地区的安全政策的不断增加的信心，已经造成一种日本和俄罗斯必须面对的，充满着新的挑战的环境。随着东北亚逐渐演变成世界上最具有重要战略意义的地区，这两个国家都面临着一个不确定的未来。
China’s rapid growth presents challenges and opportunities for Russia and Japan. Both countries have significant investments with Beijing and rely on having access – even if limited – to the Chinese market. Despite this, there is clear recognition in Japan and Russia that a Sino-centric continent is not in their interests.
中国的快速发展，给俄罗斯和日本都带来了机遇跟挑战。这两个国家都有着来自北京的显著的投资并且都依靠着——即使非常有限——的中国市场份额。尽管如此，日本和俄罗斯都非常清醒地认识到，以中国为中心的亚洲大陆，都不是他们的利益所在。
But China is not the only issue policymakers in Tokyo and Moscow are concentrating on. Asia’s security infrastructure has become increasingly dynamic and fragile and is riddled with potential landmines for both states including a truculent regime in North Korea, increased competition for resources and influence in Central Asia and transnational threats such as international terrorism and organized crime. Moreover, Russia and Japan are both keen to enhance their strategic partnership on energy, which has been held hostage by their territorial dispute.
但是中国并不是日本和俄罗斯的决策者们所关切的唯一问题。亚洲的安全体系已经变得越来越动荡、脆弱，并对于这两个国家来说，亚洲的安全体系充斥着潜在的地雷，其中包括好战的北朝鲜政权、在能源方面竞争的增加、在中亚的影响力以及跨国威胁例如国际恐怖主义以及有组织犯罪。此外，俄罗斯和日本都热衷于加强两国之间的已受制于两国领土争端的能源战略合作伙伴关系。
The substantial and growing overlapping interests make it increasingly important for Moscow and Tokyo to acquire the diplomatic courage necessary to resolve their territorial dispute and move closer to a strategic partnership. Unfortunately, we are already seeing the trenches forming as both sides try to appease their domestic electorate which is opposed to concessions on the islands. Earlier today, for instance, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov belittled Japan’s position on the island dispute and called on it to accept legal reality. Japan also seems to be hedging as it also fears too great of a compromise may also embolden its rivals in other territorial disputes.
实质性的以及日益增长的重叠的利益使得，获取能解决两国领土纷争的外交勇气以及促进两国间的战略伙伴关系，对于莫斯科和东京来说，越来越重要。不幸的是，因为双方试图通过反对对岛屿主权的让步来安抚国内的选民，我们已经能够看到两国之间战壕的形成。例如，今天早些时候，俄罗斯外长拉夫罗夫贬低了日本在岛屿争端上的位置，并呼吁日本接受现实。因为担心做出太大的让步，可能助长其他与日本有领土争端的对手的气焰，日本同样似乎不愿做出什么让步。
A long term solution remains problematic, and there are risks involved in such an initiative, but the potential benefits of a partnership between Tokyo and Moscow should prompt both sides to make a serious effort at a rapprochement. Even in the absence of this, Tokyo and Moscow should still take tangible confidence building steps such as increased people-to-people ties on the islands and potentially refloating the idea of a free trade zone and joint development projects. Stagnation is no longer a viable option.
一个长远的解决方案仍然是有问题的，而且参与这样一个倡议是有风险的，但东京和莫斯科之间的合作的潜在好处应该能促使双方在建立友好关系方面，做出真诚的努力。即使没有这个，东京和莫斯科仍应采取切实建立信任的措施，如在这些岛屿的问题上加强民间来往以及潜在的重振自由贸易区的想法和联合开发项目。停滞不再是一个可行的选项。
美国《The Diplomat》
日期：2013年1月24日
标题：Asia’s Other Island Spat…Between Japan and Russia
链接：http://thediplomat.com/2013/01/2 ... apan-rapprochement/
Asia’s Other Island Spat…Between Japan and Russia
亚洲其他的岛屿争端。。。日本大战俄罗斯
By J. Berkshire Miller
As tensions mount in the East and South China Seas, a dispute over islands between Tokyo and Moscow has also been left unresolved.
随着中国东海及南海的紧张局势的加剧，东京与莫斯科之间的岛屿争端被人们置之不理了。
Earlier this month, former Japanese Prime Minister Yoshiro Mori appeared on national television and drew a line on the map separating Japan from Russia. Mori’s line was directly northeast of three of the disputed isles (Kunashiri, Shikotan and Habomai) but intentionally stopped short of including the largest island, Etorofu, which remained in Russian territory and signaled Mori’s desire to compromise with Russia. Mori justified this concession as a “realistic approach” to resolving the long standing territorial row between the two countries.
这个月早些时候，日本前首相森喜郎上了国家电视，并且在地图上划了一条，将日本与俄罗斯分离开来的线。森喜郎画的的线，直接划出了东北部的有争议的群岛中的三个（国后岛、色丹岛和齿舞岛）,但故意没有包括最大的岛——择捉岛，而是把它留在了俄罗斯的领土上，暗示了森喜郎想与俄罗斯达成妥协的愿望。森喜郎将这一让步举动当作解决两国之间，长期以来的领土纷争的“务实之举”。
Over the years, there have been a host of diplomatic attempts by both sides to determine who has legal sovereignty over the islands. Unfortunately, the two remain at loggerheads and firmly entrenched in their positions which are muddied by a series of historical treaties dating back to 1855. Tokyo claims that the sovereignty of the Northern Territories (referred to as Southern Kurils by Russia) has never been debatable and that the four disputed islands have been part of Japan since the early 19th century. This is confirmed, according to Japan, by— among other treaties— the Shimoda Treaty of 1855 and the Portsmouth Treaty of 1905 at the conclusion of the Russo-Japanese war. For its part, Russia pays little heed to Japan’s claims on the islands, instead pointing to a number of international treaties—including the Yalta Agreement (1945) and Potsdam Declaration (1945)— as proof of its sovereignty. Russia also emphasizes that the 1951 San Francisco Treaty serves as legal evidence that Japan acknowledged Russian sovereignty over the islands, a claim Tokyo vehemently denies.
.
多年以来，双方进行一系列的外交举措试图理清到底哪一方对该群岛拥有合法主权。不幸的是，两方在这一问题上仍旧保持对立，并各自固守着由一系列可追溯自1855年的历史条约搅浑的立场。东京声称北方四岛（俄罗斯称之为南千岛群岛）的主权从来不具有争议，自19世纪早期，此具有争议的四个岛屿就属于日本。就日本而言，通过一些其他条约中的1855年的《下田条约》和1905年，作为日俄战争结局的《朴茨茅斯条约》，对日本的主权诉求加以确认。就其本身而言，俄罗斯对于日本有关这些岛屿的主权诉求并不太在意，反而指出许多国际条约——包括雅尔塔协议（1945年）和波茨坦公告（1945年）——作为其主权的证据。俄罗斯同样强调，1951年的旧金山条约就是日本承认俄罗斯对这些岛屿的主权的合法证据。对于俄罗斯有关日本承认俄罗斯对这些岛屿的主权的声明，日本方面表达强烈否认。
Almost immediately following the Mori proposal, the administration of new Prime Minister Shinzo Abe rebuked the comments and insisted that Japan would maintain its official policy that all four islands be returned. Chief Cabinet Secretary Yoshihide Suga underscored this with a caveat: “(The government) will firmly maintain its basic policy, which is to confirm that the four islands belong to Japan and thereafter conclude a peace treaty with Russia. Then we can be flexible over the timing of actual reversions of those islands.” But Tokyo is not pouring cold water on resolving the spat and has agreed to send Mori, who has a strong relationship with Russian President Vladimir Putin, to Russia in early February to kick start negotiations. There are also reports that Abe is hoping to travel to Russia later in the spring with the intent of making concrete progress on resolving the dispute.
几乎紧跟着森喜郎的建议，日本政府新任首相安倍晋三谴责了这些评论，并坚持日本将保持其官方政策，那就是要收回所有四个岛屿。内阁官房长官菅义伟通过警告强调了这点：“（政府）将坚定的维护其基本政策，那就是坚定地认为这四个岛屿归日本所有，之后与俄罗斯达成一项和平条约。那么我们在处理这些岛屿的实际回归日期上，能进行灵活的操作。”但是东京在解决这一争端的问题上，并没有泼冷水；并且已经同意在2月初，将派遣与俄罗斯总统弗拉基米尔普京关系融洽的森喜郎赴俄启动谈判工作。同样有报道称，安倍希望稍后在春天的时候，能够访问俄罗斯，旨在为解决这些争端争取一些实质性的进步。
Unfortunately, we have seen this narrative before, most notably in 1998 when Japanese Prime Minister Ryutaro Hashimoto sought to use his personal friendship with Russian President Boris Yeltsin to reach a grand bargain. In what would come to be known as the “Kawana Proposal,” Tokyo proposed the two sides demarcate their borders with the Northern Territories belonging to Japan. In return, Hashimoto promised Yeltsin that Japan would agree to continued Russian administration and joint economic development of the islands. Hashimoto’s also promised that Japan would sign a peace treaty with Russia if Yeltsin agreed to the proposal. In other words, Hashimoto offered to delay tangible sovereignty in favor of legal recognition. However, the gambit failed: Russia rejected the proposal later that fall.
.
不幸的是，我们之前就看过这种故事，最明显的是发生在1998年，日本首相桥本龙太郎试图利用他与俄罗斯总统鲍里斯叶利钦之间的个人友谊达到一笔大买卖。在后来大家知道的“川奈提议”里，由东京提出的双方边界中，北方的领土属于日本。作为回报，桥本许诺叶利钦说，日本将同意俄罗斯继续管理并对共同参与这些岛屿的经济发展。桥本同样许诺道，如果叶利钦同意这些建议，日本将会与俄罗斯签订和平条约。换一句话说，桥本为了得到法律认可的主权而推迟了对实际主权的获取。然而，这个策略失败了：俄罗斯稍后，在秋天拒绝了这个提议。
But the geopolitical scene in North East Asia has changed dramatically since 1998 and resolving the Kuril row is not just a priority for Japan anymore. Putin indicated last year that he was committed to “permanently resolving” the dispute. Amid debate about a renaissance of U.S. power in Asia, Putin has been thinking about his own “pivot” to the Far East. Russia has always maintained its historical legacy as a Pacific power, but realistically this has largely been ignored for decades. Japan meanwhile has been challenged vigorously over the past several months by China, South Korea and Russia on its territorial disputes. This, coupled with China’s increased assertiveness on security policy in the region, has created an environment with new challenges that Japan and Russia must confront. Both countries are facing an uncertain future as Northeast Asia continues to morph into the most strategically important region in the world.
但自1998年以来，东北亚的地缘政治面貌发生了巨大的变化。解决有关千岛群岛的争议，再也不仅仅只是日本需要优先考虑的问题了。普京去年发表声明说，他致力于“永久解决”这一争议。在提及美国军事力量重返亚洲这个话题时，普京一直在思考自己在远东的“轴心”。俄罗斯一直致力于保持其作为一个太平洋大国的历史遗产，但实际上，几十年来，这已经在很大程度上被忽视了。与此同时，日本在过去几个月中，在其领土争端上，受到了来自中国、韩国和俄罗斯的积极挑战。这些，外加中国有关该地区的安全政策的不断增加的信心，已经造成一种日本和俄罗斯必须面对的，充满着新的挑战的环境。随着东北亚逐渐演变成世界上最具有重要战略意义的地区，这两个国家都面临着一个不确定的未来。
China’s rapid growth presents challenges and opportunities for Russia and Japan. Both countries have significant investments with Beijing and rely on having access – even if limited – to the Chinese market. Despite this, there is clear recognition in Japan and Russia that a Sino-centric continent is not in their interests.
中国的快速发展，给俄罗斯和日本都带来了机遇跟挑战。这两个国家都有着来自北京的显著的投资并且都依靠着——即使非常有限——的中国市场份额。尽管如此，日本和俄罗斯都非常清醒地认识到，以中国为中心的亚洲大陆，都不是他们的利益所在。
But China is not the only issue policymakers in Tokyo and Moscow are concentrating on. Asia’s security infrastructure has become increasingly dynamic and fragile and is riddled with potential landmines for both states including a truculent regime in North Korea, increased competition for resources and influence in Central Asia and transnational threats such as international terrorism and organized crime. Moreover, Russia and Japan are both keen to enhance their strategic partnership on energy, which has been held hostage by their territorial dispute.
但是中国并不是日本和俄罗斯的决策者们所关切的唯一问题。亚洲的安全体系已经变得越来越动荡、脆弱，并对于这两个国家来说，亚洲的安全体系充斥着潜在的地雷，其中包括好战的北朝鲜政权、在能源方面竞争的增加、在中亚的影响力以及跨国威胁例如国际恐怖主义以及有组织犯罪。此外，俄罗斯和日本都热衷于加强两国之间的已受制于两国领土争端的能源战略合作伙伴关系。
The substantial and growing overlapping interests make it increasingly important for Moscow and Tokyo to acquire the diplomatic courage necessary to resolve their territorial dispute and move closer to a strategic partnership. Unfortunately, we are already seeing the trenches forming as both sides try to appease their domestic electorate which is opposed to concessions on the islands. Earlier today, for instance, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov belittled Japan’s position on the island dispute and called on it to accept legal reality. Japan also seems to be hedging as it also fears too great of a compromise may also embolden its rivals in other territorial disputes.
实质性的以及日益增长的重叠的利益使得，获取能解决两国领土纷争的外交勇气以及促进两国间的战略伙伴关系，对于莫斯科和东京来说，越来越重要。不幸的是，因为双方试图通过反对对岛屿主权的让步来安抚国内的选民，我们已经能够看到两国之间战壕的形成。例如，今天早些时候，俄罗斯外长拉夫罗夫贬低了日本在岛屿争端上的位置，并呼吁日本接受现实。因为担心做出太大的让步，可能助长其他与日本有领土争端的对手的气焰，日本同样似乎不愿做出什么让步。
A long term solution remains problematic, and there are risks involved in such an initiative, but the potential benefits of a partnership between Tokyo and Moscow should prompt both sides to make a serious effort at a rapprochement. Even in the absence of this, Tokyo and Moscow should still take tangible confidence building steps such as increased people-to-people ties on the islands and potentially refloating the idea of a free trade zone and joint development projects. Stagnation is no longer a viable option.
一个长远的解决方案仍然是有问题的，而且参与这样一个倡议是有风险的，但东京和莫斯科之间的合作的潜在好处应该能促使双方在建立友好关系方面，做出真诚的努力。即使没有这个，东京和莫斯科仍应采取切实建立信任的措施，如在这些岛屿的问题上加强民间来往以及潜在的重振自由贸易区的想法和联合开发项目。停滞不再是一个可行的选项。龙腾
美国《The Diplomat》
日期：2013年1月24日
标题：Asia’s Other Island Spat…Between Japan and Russia
链接：http://thediplomat.com/2013/01/2 ... apan-rapprochement/
Asia’s Other Island Spat…Between Japan and Russia
亚洲其他的岛屿争端。。。日本大战俄罗斯
By J. Berkshire Miller
As tensions mount in the East and South China Seas, a dispute over islands between Tokyo and Moscow has also been left unresolved.
随着中国东海及南海的紧张局势的加剧，东京与莫斯科之间的岛屿争端被人们置之不理了。
Earlier this month, former Japanese Prime Minister Yoshiro Mori appeared on national television and drew a line on the map separating Japan from Russia. Mori’s line was directly northeast of three of the disputed isles (Kunashiri, Shikotan and Habomai) but intentionally stopped short of including the largest island, Etorofu, which remained in Russian territory and signaled Mori’s desire to compromise with Russia. Mori justified this concession as a “realistic approach” to resolving the long standing territorial row between the two countries.
这个月早些时候，日本前首相森喜郎上了国家电视，并且在地图上划了一条，将日本与俄罗斯分离开来的线。森喜郎画的的线，直接划出了东北部的有争议的群岛中的三个（国后岛、色丹岛和齿舞岛）,但故意没有包括最大的岛——择捉岛，而是把它留在了俄罗斯的领土上，暗示了森喜郎想与俄罗斯达成妥协的愿望。森喜郎将这一让步举动当作解决两国之间，长期以来的领土纷争的“务实之举”。
Over the years, there have been a host of diplomatic attempts by both sides to determine who has legal sovereignty over the islands. Unfortunately, the two remain at loggerheads and firmly entrenched in their positions which are muddied by a series of historical treaties dating back to 1855. Tokyo claims that the sovereignty of the Northern Territories (referred to as Southern Kurils by Russia) has never been debatable and that the four disputed islands have been part of Japan since the early 19th century. This is confirmed, according to Japan, by— among other treaties— the Shimoda Treaty of 1855 and the Portsmouth Treaty of 1905 at the conclusion of the Russo-Japanese war. For its part, Russia pays little heed to Japan’s claims on the islands, instead pointing to a number of international treaties—including the Yalta Agreement (1945) and Potsdam Declaration (1945)— as proof of its sovereignty. Russia also emphasizes that the 1951 San Francisco Treaty serves as legal evidence that Japan acknowledged Russian sovereignty over the islands, a claim Tokyo vehemently denies.
.
多年以来，双方进行一系列的外交举措试图理清到底哪一方对该群岛拥有合法主权。不幸的是，两方在这一问题上仍旧保持对立，并各自固守着由一系列可追溯自1855年的历史条约搅浑的立场。东京声称北方四岛（俄罗斯称之为南千岛群岛）的主权从来不具有争议，自19世纪早期，此具有争议的四个岛屿就属于日本。就日本而言，通过一些其他条约中的1855年的《下田条约》和1905年，作为日俄战争结局的《朴茨茅斯条约》，对日本的主权诉求加以确认。就其本身而言，俄罗斯对于日本有关这些岛屿的主权诉求并不太在意，反而指出许多国际条约——包括雅尔塔协议（1945年）和波茨坦公告（1945年）——作为其主权的证据。俄罗斯同样强调，1951年的旧金山条约就是日本承认俄罗斯对这些岛屿的主权的合法证据。对于俄罗斯有关日本承认俄罗斯对这些岛屿的主权的声明，日本方面表达强烈否认。
Almost immediately following the Mori proposal, the administration of new Prime Minister Shinzo Abe rebuked the comments and insisted that Japan would maintain its official policy that all four islands be returned. Chief Cabinet Secretary Yoshihide Suga underscored this with a caveat: “(The government) will firmly maintain its basic policy, which is to confirm that the four islands belong to Japan and thereafter conclude a peace treaty with Russia. Then we can be flexible over the timing of actual reversions of those islands.” But Tokyo is not pouring cold water on resolving the spat and has agreed to send Mori, who has a strong relationship with Russian President Vladimir Putin, to Russia in early February to kick start negotiations. There are also reports that Abe is hoping to travel to Russia later in the spring with the intent of making concrete progress on resolving the dispute.
几乎紧跟着森喜郎的建议，日本政府新任首相安倍晋三谴责了这些评论，并坚持日本将保持其官方政策，那就是要收回所有四个岛屿。内阁官房长官菅义伟通过警告强调了这点：“（政府）将坚定的维护其基本政策，那就是坚定地认为这四个岛屿归日本所有，之后与俄罗斯达成一项和平条约。那么我们在处理这些岛屿的实际回归日期上，能进行灵活的操作。”但是东京在解决这一争端的问题上，并没有泼冷水；并且已经同意在2月初，将派遣与俄罗斯总统弗拉基米尔普京关系融洽的森喜郎赴俄启动谈判工作。同样有报道称，安倍希望稍后在春天的时候，能够访问俄罗斯，旨在为解决这些争端争取一些实质性的进步。
Unfortunately, we have seen this narrative before, most notably in 1998 when Japanese Prime Minister Ryutaro Hashimoto sought to use his personal friendship with Russian President Boris Yeltsin to reach a grand bargain. In what would come to be known as the “Kawana Proposal,” Tokyo proposed the two sides demarcate their borders with the Northern Territories belonging to Japan. In return, Hashimoto promised Yeltsin that Japan would agree to continued Russian administration and joint economic development of the islands. Hashimoto’s also promised that Japan would sign a peace treaty with Russia if Yeltsin agreed to the proposal. In other words, Hashimoto offered to delay tangible sovereignty in favor of legal recognition. However, the gambit failed: Russia rejected the proposal later that fall.
.
不幸的是，我们之前就看过这种故事，最明显的是发生在1998年，日本首相桥本龙太郎试图利用他与俄罗斯总统鲍里斯叶利钦之间的个人友谊达到一笔大买卖。在后来大家知道的“川奈提议”里，由东京提出的双方边界中，北方的领土属于日本。作为回报，桥本许诺叶利钦说，日本将同意俄罗斯继续管理并对共同参与这些岛屿的经济发展。桥本同样许诺道，如果叶利钦同意这些建议，日本将会与俄罗斯签订和平条约。换一句话说，桥本为了得到法律认可的主权而推迟了对实际主权的获取。然而，这个策略失败了：俄罗斯稍后，在秋天拒绝了这个提议。
But the geopolitical scene in North East Asia has changed dramatically since 1998 and resolving the Kuril row is not just a priority for Japan anymore. Putin indicated last year that he was committed to “permanently resolving” the dispute. Amid debate about a renaissance of U.S. power in Asia, Putin has been thinking about his own “pivot” to the Far East. Russia has always maintained its historical legacy as a Pacific power, but realistically this has largely been ignored for decades. Japan meanwhile has been challenged vigorously over the past several months by China, South Korea and Russia on its territorial disputes. This, coupled with China’s increased assertiveness on security policy in the region, has created an environment with new challenges that Japan and Russia must confront. Both countries are facing an uncertain future as Northeast Asia continues to morph into the most strategically important region in the world.
但自1998年以来，东北亚的地缘政治面貌发生了巨大的变化。解决有关千岛群岛的争议，再也不仅仅只是日本需要优先考虑的问题了。普京去年发表声明说，他致力于“永久解决”这一争议。在提及美国军事力量重返亚洲这个话题时，普京一直在思考自己在远东的“轴心”。俄罗斯一直致力于保持其作为一个太平洋大国的历史遗产，但实际上，几十年来，这已经在很大程度上被忽视了。与此同时，日本在过去几个月中，在其领土争端上，受到了来自中国、韩国和俄罗斯的积极挑战。这些，外加中国有关该地区的安全政策的不断增加的信心，已经造成一种日本和俄罗斯必须面对的，充满着新的挑战的环境。随着东北亚逐渐演变成世界上最具有重要战略意义的地区，这两个国家都面临着一个不确定的未来。
China’s rapid growth presents challenges and opportunities for Russia and Japan. Both countries have significant investments with Beijing and rely on having access – even if limited – to the Chinese market. Despite this, there is clear recognition in Japan and Russia that a Sino-centric continent is not in their interests.
中国的快速发展，给俄罗斯和日本都带来了机遇跟挑战。这两个国家都有着来自北京的显著的投资并且都依靠着——即使非常有限——的中国市场份额。尽管如此，日本和俄罗斯都非常清醒地认识到，以中国为中心的亚洲大陆，都不是他们的利益所在。
But China is not the only issue policymakers in Tokyo and Moscow are concentrating on. Asia’s security infrastructure has become increasingly dynamic and fragile and is riddled with potential landmines for both states including a truculent regime in North Korea, increased competition for resources and influence in Central Asia and transnational threats such as international terrorism and organized crime. Moreover, Russia and Japan are both keen to enhance their strategic partnership on energy, which has been held hostage by their territorial dispute.
但是中国并不是日本和俄罗斯的决策者们所关切的唯一问题。亚洲的安全体系已经变得越来越动荡、脆弱，并对于这两个国家来说，亚洲的安全体系充斥着潜在的地雷，其中包括好战的北朝鲜政权、在能源方面竞争的增加、在中亚的影响力以及跨国威胁例如国际恐怖主义以及有组织犯罪。此外，俄罗斯和日本都热衷于加强两国之间的已受制于两国领土争端的能源战略合作伙伴关系。
The substantial and growing overlapping interests make it increasingly important for Moscow and Tokyo to acquire the diplomatic courage necessary to resolve their territorial dispute and move closer to a strategic partnership. Unfortunately, we are already seeing the trenches forming as both sides try to appease their domestic electorate which is opposed to concessions on the islands. Earlier today, for instance, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov belittled Japan’s position on the island dispute and called on it to accept legal reality. Japan also seems to be hedging as it also fears too great of a compromise may also embolden its rivals in other territorial disputes.
实质性的以及日益增长的重叠的利益使得，获取能解决两国领土纷争的外交勇气以及促进两国间的战略伙伴关系，对于莫斯科和东京来说，越来越重要。不幸的是，因为双方试图通过反对对岛屿主权的让步来安抚国内的选民，我们已经能够看到两国之间战壕的形成。例如，今天早些时候，俄罗斯外长拉夫罗夫贬低了日本在岛屿争端上的位置，并呼吁日本接受现实。因为担心做出太大的让步，可能助长其他与日本有领土争端的对手的气焰，日本同样似乎不愿做出什么让步。
A long term solution remains problematic, and there are risks involved in such an initiative, but the potential benefits of a partnership between Tokyo and Moscow should prompt both sides to make a serious effort at a rapprochement. Even in the absence of this, Tokyo and Moscow should still take tangible confidence building steps such as increased people-to-people ties on the islands and potentially refloating the idea of a free trade zone and joint development projects. Stagnation is no longer a viable option.
一个长远的解决方案仍然是有问题的，而且参与这样一个倡议是有风险的，但东京和莫斯科之间的合作的潜在好处应该能促使双方在建立友好关系方面，做出真诚的努力。即使没有这个，东京和莫斯科仍应采取切实建立信任的措施，如在这些岛屿的问题上加强民间来往以及潜在的重振自由贸易区的想法和联合开发项目。停滞不再是一个可行的选项。
这条报道没有任何意义
John Chan January 24, 2013 at 8:49 am
Japan is a defeated WWII aggressor, one of the punishments for its defeat is to lose all lands it acquired through aggression and its territory is reduced to four main islands and some minor islands specified by the USA, Russia, Britain and China.
日本是二战战败国，其战败后所受到的惩罚之一就是失去它通过侵略而获得的岛屿，它的领土减少到四个主要岛屿以及一些由美国、俄罗斯、英国和中国指定的小岛。
Japan asks Kuril islands back from Russia as though Russia owes Japan, it seems Japan is negating the terms it signed on its unconditional surrender; perhaps it is the time to reinforce Japan’s unconditional surrender terms again to remind Japan the punishments for its unapologetic war crimes; taking Ryukyu away from its illegal administration portfolio is a good starting point.
日本想从俄罗斯手里拿回千岛群岛，仿佛俄罗斯欠日本的一样，日本似乎是在否定它无条件投降时签署的那些条款；也许是时候加强一下日本的无条件投降条款，由于日本对其战争罪行毫无悔意，因此需要再次提醒它这些处罚；把琉球群岛从日本不合法的管理权里拿走，是个好的开始。
Huh? January 24, 2013 at 12:31 pm
China wasn't at the table during the San Francisco accord due the civil war at the time. China didn't / doesn't get to decide which Islands Japan gets to keep.
And why exactly should the Ryukyu islands be given to China? Another rubbish historic claim? Another opportunistic land grab?
当时因为内战，中国并没有出现在旧金山条约的谈判桌上。中国过去不能，现在也不能决定日本能保留哪些岛。究竟为什么，琉球群岛该给中国？另一个垃圾历史索赔么？另一次投机取巧的土地掠夺么？
Tanginathis January 24, 2013 at 4:01 pm
"China wasn't at the table during the San Francisco accord"
@john Chan… BURN!
making up stories is John Chan favorite hobby
“中国并没有出现在旧金山条约的谈判桌上”
@John Chan。。。。砰！！
John Chan最大的爱好就是编故事。
James the Australian January 25, 2013 at 11:17 am
Japan claim to the Dioyutai, is that, they won it in a war with China.
Russia claim to these Kuriles island is that, they won it in a war with Japan.
So, go figures it out guys……..seriously, based on the Japanese silly mentality, the Russians are the owner and do not expect them to return them, as they are real estates with very valuable resources and strategically located within easily strike distance of their Japanese adversary.
日本对钓鱼台的主权要求，那是他们从与中国战争中赢得的。（译注：钓鱼台，巴子咩？）
俄罗斯队千岛群岛的主权要求，那是因为他们从与日本的战争中赢得的。
因此，伙计们，我们能推导出。。。。说真的，基于日本愚蠢的心态，俄罗斯是主人，不会期望俄罗斯把岛还给他们，因为这些岛都是有着珍贵资源的，并且有着易于打击他们的日本敌人的具有战略意义的地理位置。
Be WayJanuary 24, 2013 at 7:23 pm
回复Huh? Huh?
John had only stated that Ryukyu should not illegally being administered by the Japanese. Didn't see him writing anything that it must be returned back to China. Your wild accusation against China is simply astonishing.
John（译注：John Chan）只是说琉球不该由日本执行非法的管辖权。没有看到他写什么，琉球必须归还中国的话。你反中的野蛮指控真是让人惊讶。
John Chan January 24, 2013 at 11:10 pm
回复Huh?
China refused to recognize San Francisco accord, because the San Francisco accord is a betrayal of Cairo and Potsdam Declarations by the USA, the betrayal is the betrayal of Asians’ struggle against the barbaric Fascist Japanese for liberty, justice and equality, the betrayal made the USA a de factor accomplice of Fascism, hence the San Francisco accord is not an implementation of Cairo and Potsdam Declarations which are the terms for the defeated aggressor Japan’s unconditional surrender, in other words, the Japanese unconditional surrender terms have yet been implemented.
中国拒绝承认旧金山协议，因为旧金山协议是由美国一手操纵的，对开罗宣言以及波茨坦公告的背叛。这种背叛是对亚洲人民，为了自由、正义以及平等而与野蛮的日本法西斯作出的斗争的背叛，这种背叛让美国成为法西斯的共犯，因此旧金山协议不是打败侵略者日本，使之无条件投降并签下的开罗宣言和波茨坦公告的实践，换句话说，日本人无条件投降条款还未实现。
。
Nirvana January 25, 2013 at 7:57 pm
Until the end of WW2 and the creation of the UN, a state can gain territories through 2 mechanisms: war or discovery.
Japan won the first Sino-Japan war (1894-95). But the Shimonoseki Treaty did not mention the Senkakus in the gained territories. The Japanese explanation is that they acquired the Senkakus through discovery. We can reasonably accept that, if they did not faithfully believe so, they would have incorporated the Senkakus in the Shimonoseki text.
The Chinese thesis is that Japan “stole” the Senkakus. We can reasonably argue that since China was a loser, it would be beneficial for China to remain silent at the Shimonoseki negotiations. But then why remain silent in the Postdam declaration? Why the ROC remained silent for nearly 30 years when the islands were under the trusteeship of its main ally? When the PRC replaced the ROC as the representative of China people, why Mao and Deng preferred not to discuss the matter when they negotiated the Peace and Friendship Treaty with Tanaka? There are no such ambiguities in the Japanese-Russian disputes around 4 islands. Whether they are part or not of the Kurils, depends on which side you are,and not the subject of my point.
Concerning the Battles of Khalkhin Gol in 1939, Japan LOST. So, this conflict is irrelevant to war compensation to the Soviets after WW2.
If you ask an American today whether the US was a peace-loving in 1956, the likely answer is no. If you ask a Russian whether Stalin was a peace-loving leader, the likely answer is no. If you tell a French that France was a country of freedom and equality in the 50s and 60s, he would likely chuckle. Now ask a Chinese whether Mao and the CCP are communist angels, what would you get as answer? Probably embarrassed silence.
直到二战结束以及联合国的创建，一个国家能够通过两种方式获取领土：战争或发现。
日本赢了第一次中日战争（1894年—1895年）。但是下关条约并未提及尖阁群岛为日本获取的领土。日本人的解释是，他们通过发现而获得尖阁群岛。我们可以合理地认为，如果他们不是笃信这一点，他们应该会把尖阁群岛写入下关条约的条款中。
中国人的论点是，日本人“偷”了尖阁群岛。我们可以合理地认为，由于中国战败，在下关谈判中保持沉默对它是有利的。但是为什么在波茨坦公告中仍然保持沉默呢？为什么当这一群岛由其主要盟友托管时，中华民国保持了将近30年的沉默呢？当中华人民共和国代替中华民国作为中国人民的代表时，为什么毛和邓在与田中协商和平友好条约时，不愿意讨论这个问题呢？在俄罗斯与日本的有关这四个岛屿的纷争中，没有这种模棱两可的地方。他们是否是千岛群岛的一部分，取决于你站在那边，而不是我的观点。
提及1939年的诺门坎战役（译注：日苏之间），日本战败。因此，这个冲突与二战后对苏联的战争赔偿无关。
如果你今天问一个美国人，美国在1956年是否爱好和平，答案很可能是否定的。如果你问一个俄罗斯人，斯大林是否是一位爱好和平的领袖，答案也很可能是否定的。如果你告诉法国人，法国在上世纪五十年代是一个自由平等的国家，他很可能会窃笑不已。现在问一个中国人，毛和GCD是否是共产主义天使，你认为你会得到怎样的答案？很可能是令人尴尬的沉默。
。
Nirvana January 24, 2013 at 6:37 pm
While both the Kuril and the Senkaku disputes are legacies of WW2, there are seven fundamental differences:
1) Japan did not invade the Soviets territories during WW2 and the Soviets declared war to Japan only 2 days after Hiroshima.
2) The Soviets were not co-signatory of Postdam. The “we” in “such minor islands as we determine” of the Postdam declaration, does not include them.
3) The Soviets agreed to enter the Pacific theatre with US, UK and China, to claim back lands that Russia has lost to Japan in previous wars. The Kurils were EXPLICITLY part of their conditions (Google Yalta).
4) Japan never disputed the fact that the Kurils are part of the “deal” after it capitulated (although not really as “compensation” as Japan did not invade the Soviets during WW2). What they have been objecting is that some islands that were taken by the Soviets are technically NOT part of the Kurils.
5) The Soviets agreed that there is some validity in the Japanese argument. Discussions on which islands the Soviets (now Russian federation) shall hand back have been going on since 1956.
6) There is no peace Treaty signed between Japan and the Russia till now, due to this open issue. Legally speaking, Japan and Russia are still in a state of war.
7) Japan has never tried to take the islands back by force, nor challenging Russian coast guards by harassments. There is no Russian military base on the disputed islands.
It is striking to observe how the hatred that John Chan has been forced-fed makes him blind. Or perhaps he knows the obvious but tried to hide the facts by duplicity.
虽然千岛群岛和尖阁群岛都属于二战遗留问题，但是它们之间有七个基本差异：
1、二战期间，日本并没有入侵苏联的领土，仅在广岛事件两天后，苏联向日本宣战。
2、苏联人没有签署波茨坦公告。“由我们决定之诸小岛”中的“我们”，并不包括他们。
3、苏联人同意与美国、英国以及中国一起进入太平洋战场，是为了收回俄国在之前的战争中输给日本的领土。千岛群岛被明确的列入他们的条件（谷歌雅尔塔协议）。
4、在其战败后，日本从未对于千岛群岛属于“交易”的一部分这一事实提出过异议（尽管并不是真正意义上的“赔偿”，因为日本在二战期间没有侵略过苏联）。他们一直反对的是，一些被苏联拿走的岛屿，从技术上来说，并不属于千岛群岛的一部分。
5、苏联同意日本人的论点中有一些是正确的。自从1956年以来，对于哪些岛屿该由苏联（现在的俄罗斯联邦）交换的讨论一直在进行。
6、因为这个悬而未决的问题，日本与俄罗斯之间，直到现在，也没有签订和平条约。从法律上来讲，日本跟俄罗斯之间，仍旧处于战争状态。
7、日本从未试图通过武力夺回这些岛屿，也不会通过骚扰来挑战俄罗斯海岸警备队。在这些有争议的岛屿上，没有俄罗斯的军事基地。
对于John Chan强制灌输怎样的仇恨才会让他在这一问题上失明，看到这一点，这真是令人惊讶。或者他明明知道，却口是心非的想要试图掩盖住真相。
。
John Chan January 24, 2013 at 11:43 pm
回复nirvana,
1. Russian does not agree with you at all; Russian views the so called WWII is a continuation of Japanese aggression against Russia started decades ago; just like Chinese views WWII only as a part of the Japanese aggression against China since Meiji. You should get rid of that hubris attitude that “only the West’s view is the global view.”
2. Even Kuril is indisputably Russian, but for the mutual benefits of neighbours’ sake, Russian is willing to listen what Japanese has to say. Yet a defeated aggressor Japan even refuses to adapted Russian’s open minded approach on Senkaku/Diaoyu, a stolen land with the assistance of the USA from China, it reflects Japan is an unapologetic war criminal with hubris aggressor mentality which is harmful to the security of its neighbours, such dangerous behaviour must be confronted before they repeat the atrocities like their forebears.
3. Instead of commenting on the situation objectively, you are spewing out hate monger troll viciously and it is simply sickening.
1、俄罗斯才不会同意你的讲法；俄罗斯认为，所谓的二战，就是早在几十年前开始的日本对俄国的侵略的延续；就像中国人认为二战仅仅是日本自从明治时代开始对中国的进行侵略的一部分。你应该抛弃那种“只有西方的观点才是全世界的观点”的自大的态度。
2、甚至千岛群岛也毫无争议地属于俄罗斯，但是看在邻国互利互惠的份上，俄罗斯愿意听听日本人怎么说的。然而一个战败的侵略国—日本，甚至拒绝采纳俄罗斯对于解决尖阁列岛/钓鱼岛——一个在美国的协助下，从中国偷来的岛屿——的开发思维，这也反映出日本是一个有着傲慢的侵略者心态的毫无悔意的战争犯，这对邻国的安全是不利的，这种危险的行为，在他们重蹈他们祖先的暴行之前，必须得到遏制。
3、你只是在表达你的恨意，而不是评论客观情况，这一点真让人作呕。
Japan is a defeated WWII aggressor, one of the punishments for its defeat is to lose all lands it acquired through aggression and its territory is reduced to four main islands and some minor islands specified by the USA, Russia, Britain and China.
日本是二战战败国，其战败后所受到的惩罚之一就是失去它通过侵略而获得的岛屿，它的领土减少到四个主要岛屿以及一些由美国、俄罗斯、英国和中国指定的小岛。
Japan asks Kuril islands back from Russia as though Russia owes Japan, it seems Japan is negating the terms it signed on its unconditional surrender; perhaps it is the time to reinforce Japan’s unconditional surrender terms again to remind Japan the punishments for its unapologetic war crimes; taking Ryukyu away from its illegal administration portfolio is a good starting point.
日本想从俄罗斯手里拿回千岛群岛，仿佛俄罗斯欠日本的一样，日本似乎是在否定它无条件投降时签署的那些条款；也许是时候加强一下日本的无条件投降条款，由于日本对其战争罪行毫无悔意，因此需要再次提醒它这些处罚；把琉球群岛从日本不合法的管理权里拿走，是个好的开始。
Huh? January 24, 2013 at 12:31 pm
China wasn't at the table during the San Francisco accord due the civil war at the time. China didn't / doesn't get to decide which Islands Japan gets to keep.
And why exactly should the Ryukyu islands be given to China? Another rubbish historic claim? Another opportunistic land grab?
当时因为内战，中国并没有出现在旧金山条约的谈判桌上。中国过去不能，现在也不能决定日本能保留哪些岛。究竟为什么，琉球群岛该给中国？另一个垃圾历史索赔么？另一次投机取巧的土地掠夺么？
Tanginathis January 24, 2013 at 4:01 pm
"China wasn't at the table during the San Francisco accord"
@john Chan… BURN!
making up stories is John Chan favorite hobby
“中国并没有出现在旧金山条约的谈判桌上”
@John Chan。。。。砰！！
John Chan最大的爱好就是编故事。
James the Australian January 25, 2013 at 11:17 am
Japan claim to the Dioyutai, is that, they won it in a war with China.
Russia claim to these Kuriles island is that, they won it in a war with Japan.
So, go figures it out guys……..seriously, based on the Japanese silly mentality, the Russians are the owner and do not expect them to return them, as they are real estates with very valuable resources and strategically located within easily strike distance of their Japanese adversary.
日本对钓鱼台的主权要求，那是他们从与中国战争中赢得的。（译注：钓鱼台，巴子咩？）
俄罗斯队千岛群岛的主权要求，那是因为他们从与日本的战争中赢得的。
因此，伙计们，我们能推导出。。。。说真的，基于日本愚蠢的心态，俄罗斯是主人，不会期望俄罗斯把岛还给他们，因为这些岛都是有着珍贵资源的，并且有着易于打击他们的日本敌人的具有战略意义的地理位置。
Be WayJanuary 24, 2013 at 7:23 pm
回复Huh? Huh?
John had only stated that Ryukyu should not illegally being administered by the Japanese. Didn't see him writing anything that it must be returned back to China. Your wild accusation against China is simply astonishing.
John（译注：John Chan）只是说琉球不该由日本执行非法的管辖权。没有看到他写什么，琉球必须归还中国的话。你反中的野蛮指控真是让人惊讶。
John Chan January 24, 2013 at 11:10 pm
回复Huh?
China refused to recognize San Francisco accord, because the San Francisco accord is a betrayal of Cairo and Potsdam Declarations by the USA, the betrayal is the betrayal of Asians’ struggle against the barbaric Fascist Japanese for liberty, justice and equality, the betrayal made the USA a de factor accomplice of Fascism, hence the San Francisco accord is not an implementation of Cairo and Potsdam Declarations which are the terms for the defeated aggressor Japan’s unconditional surrender, in other words, the Japanese unconditional surrender terms have yet been implemented.
中国拒绝承认旧金山协议，因为旧金山协议是由美国一手操纵的，对开罗宣言以及波茨坦公告的背叛。这种背叛是对亚洲人民，为了自由、正义以及平等而与野蛮的日本法西斯作出的斗争的背叛，这种背叛让美国成为法西斯的共犯，因此旧金山协议不是打败侵略者日本，使之无条件投降并签下的开罗宣言和波茨坦公告的实践，换句话说，日本人无条件投降条款还未实现。
。
Nirvana January 25, 2013 at 7:57 pm
Until the end of WW2 and the creation of the UN, a state can gain territories through 2 mechanisms: war or discovery.
Japan won the first Sino-Japan war (1894-95). But the Shimonoseki Treaty did not mention the Senkakus in the gained territories. The Japanese explanation is that they acquired the Senkakus through discovery. We can reasonably accept that, if they did not faithfully believe so, they would have incorporated the Senkakus in the Shimonoseki text.
The Chinese thesis is that Japan “stole” the Senkakus. We can reasonably argue that since China was a loser, it would be beneficial for China to remain silent at the Shimonoseki negotiations. But then why remain silent in the Postdam declaration? Why the ROC remained silent for nearly 30 years when the islands were under the trusteeship of its main ally? When the PRC replaced the ROC as the representative of China people, why Mao and Deng preferred not to discuss the matter when they negotiated the Peace and Friendship Treaty with Tanaka? There are no such ambiguities in the Japanese-Russian disputes around 4 islands. Whether they are part or not of the Kurils, depends on which side you are,and not the subject of my point.
Concerning the Battles of Khalkhin Gol in 1939, Japan LOST. So, this conflict is irrelevant to war compensation to the Soviets after WW2.
If you ask an American today whether the US was a peace-loving in 1956, the likely answer is no. If you ask a Russian whether Stalin was a peace-loving leader, the likely answer is no. If you tell a French that France was a country of freedom and equality in the 50s and 60s, he would likely chuckle. Now ask a Chinese whether Mao and the CCP are communist angels, what would you get as answer? Probably embarrassed silence.
直到二战结束以及联合国的创建，一个国家能够通过两种方式获取领土：战争或发现。
日本赢了第一次中日战争（1894年—1895年）。但是下关条约并未提及尖阁群岛为日本获取的领土。日本人的解释是，他们通过发现而获得尖阁群岛。我们可以合理地认为，如果他们不是笃信这一点，他们应该会把尖阁群岛写入下关条约的条款中。
中国人的论点是，日本人“偷”了尖阁群岛。我们可以合理地认为，由于中国战败，在下关谈判中保持沉默对它是有利的。但是为什么在波茨坦公告中仍然保持沉默呢？为什么当这一群岛由其主要盟友托管时，中华民国保持了将近30年的沉默呢？当中华人民共和国代替中华民国作为中国人民的代表时，为什么毛和邓在与田中协商和平友好条约时，不愿意讨论这个问题呢？在俄罗斯与日本的有关这四个岛屿的纷争中，没有这种模棱两可的地方。他们是否是千岛群岛的一部分，取决于你站在那边，而不是我的观点。
提及1939年的诺门坎战役（译注：日苏之间），日本战败。因此，这个冲突与二战后对苏联的战争赔偿无关。
如果你今天问一个美国人，美国在1956年是否爱好和平，答案很可能是否定的。如果你问一个俄罗斯人，斯大林是否是一位爱好和平的领袖，答案也很可能是否定的。如果你告诉法国人，法国在上世纪五十年代是一个自由平等的国家，他很可能会窃笑不已。现在问一个中国人，毛和GCD是否是共产主义天使，你认为你会得到怎样的答案？很可能是令人尴尬的沉默。
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Nirvana January 24, 2013 at 6:37 pm
While both the Kuril and the Senkaku disputes are legacies of WW2, there are seven fundamental differences:
1) Japan did not invade the Soviets territories during WW2 and the Soviets declared war to Japan only 2 days after Hiroshima.
2) The Soviets were not co-signatory of Postdam. The “we” in “such minor islands as we determine” of the Postdam declaration, does not include them.
3) The Soviets agreed to enter the Pacific theatre with US, UK and China, to claim back lands that Russia has lost to Japan in previous wars. The Kurils were EXPLICITLY part of their conditions (Google Yalta).
4) Japan never disputed the fact that the Kurils are part of the “deal” after it capitulated (although not really as “compensation” as Japan did not invade the Soviets during WW2). What they have been objecting is that some islands that were taken by the Soviets are technically NOT part of the Kurils.
5) The Soviets agreed that there is some validity in the Japanese argument. Discussions on which islands the Soviets (now Russian federation) shall hand back have been going on since 1956.
6) There is no peace Treaty signed between Japan and the Russia till now, due to this open issue. Legally speaking, Japan and Russia are still in a state of war.
7) Japan has never tried to take the islands back by force, nor challenging Russian coast guards by harassments. There is no Russian military base on the disputed islands.
It is striking to observe how the hatred that John Chan has been forced-fed makes him blind. Or perhaps he knows the obvious but tried to hide the facts by duplicity.
虽然千岛群岛和尖阁群岛都属于二战遗留问题，但是它们之间有七个基本差异：
1、二战期间，日本并没有入侵苏联的领土，仅在广岛事件两天后，苏联向日本宣战。
2、苏联人没有签署波茨坦公告。“由我们决定之诸小岛”中的“我们”，并不包括他们。
3、苏联人同意与美国、英国以及中国一起进入太平洋战场，是为了收回俄国在之前的战争中输给日本的领土。千岛群岛被明确的列入他们的条件（谷歌雅尔塔协议）。
4、在其战败后，日本从未对于千岛群岛属于“交易”的一部分这一事实提出过异议（尽管并不是真正意义上的“赔偿”，因为日本在二战期间没有侵略过苏联）。他们一直反对的是，一些被苏联拿走的岛屿，从技术上来说，并不属于千岛群岛的一部分。
5、苏联同意日本人的论点中有一些是正确的。自从1956年以来，对于哪些岛屿该由苏联（现在的俄罗斯联邦）交换的讨论一直在进行。
6、因为这个悬而未决的问题，日本与俄罗斯之间，直到现在，也没有签订和平条约。从法律上来讲，日本跟俄罗斯之间，仍旧处于战争状态。
7、日本从未试图通过武力夺回这些岛屿，也不会通过骚扰来挑战俄罗斯海岸警备队。在这些有争议的岛屿上，没有俄罗斯的军事基地。
对于John Chan强制灌输怎样的仇恨才会让他在这一问题上失明，看到这一点，这真是令人惊讶。或者他明明知道，却口是心非的想要试图掩盖住真相。
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John Chan January 24, 2013 at 11:43 pm
回复nirvana,
1. Russian does not agree with you at all; Russian views the so called WWII is a continuation of Japanese aggression against Russia started decades ago; just like Chinese views WWII only as a part of the Japanese aggression against China since Meiji. You should get rid of that hubris attitude that “only the West’s view is the global view.”
2. Even Kuril is indisputably Russian, but for the mutual benefits of neighbours’ sake, Russian is willing to listen what Japanese has to say. Yet a defeated aggressor Japan even refuses to adapted Russian’s open minded approach on Senkaku/Diaoyu, a stolen land with the assistance of the USA from China, it reflects Japan is an unapologetic war criminal with hubris aggressor mentality which is harmful to the security of its neighbours, such dangerous behaviour must be confronted before they repeat the atrocities like their forebears.
3. Instead of commenting on the situation objectively, you are spewing out hate monger troll viciously and it is simply sickening.
1、俄罗斯才不会同意你的讲法；俄罗斯认为，所谓的二战，就是早在几十年前开始的日本对俄国的侵略的延续；就像中国人认为二战仅仅是日本自从明治时代开始对中国的进行侵略的一部分。你应该抛弃那种“只有西方的观点才是全世界的观点”的自大的态度。
2、甚至千岛群岛也毫无争议地属于俄罗斯，但是看在邻国互利互惠的份上，俄罗斯愿意听听日本人怎么说的。然而一个战败的侵略国—日本，甚至拒绝采纳俄罗斯对于解决尖阁列岛/钓鱼岛——一个在美国的协助下，从中国偷来的岛屿——的开发思维，这也反映出日本是一个有着傲慢的侵略者心态的毫无悔意的战争犯，这对邻国的安全是不利的，这种危险的行为，在他们重蹈他们祖先的暴行之前，必须得到遏制。
3、你只是在表达你的恨意，而不是评论客观情况，这一点真让人作呕。
北方四岛问题就好比一个龌龊的小偷因为四处偷人皮夹子引起众怒而遭打，结果以前偷与抢到的皮夹子都吐了出来，并且自己的皮夹子还被作为罚款没收了。。。想从一个脾气莽撞的强盗手里把被抢的皮夹子骗回来，可能吗？
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Jean-Paul January 25, 2013 at 4:22 am
回复John Chan, Anon
Both of you are still stuck in the past and refuse to let go of it, that is why there will never be peace and prosperity in Asia, because both of you and the rest of China refuse to put WW2 behind you and let bygones be bygones.
There are some serious errors in your propaganda, let me address a few of them for you:
1. The San Francisco peace treaty was ratified by 48 sovereign nations; all of these nations represented peace and a willingness to leave the past in the past and begin building a better future for both Japan and Germany. They realized that Japan had suffered enough and to inflict anymore harm upon them would simply be unfair and sadistic. The only nations that had refused to sign the treaty were part of the commie thug axis and, of the 51 nations present, only 3 refused to sign. A clear sign that they are a bunch of thugs that wants to inflict more harm on a defeated suffering opponent.
2. China had not stopped fighting its civil war and had two representative governments at that time so therefore it was in no condition to sign a treaty on anything at all. After suffering millions of casualties in WW2, china, being the sadistic nation that it is still wanted to see more bloodshed and suffering so it turned on itself. After that civil war one of the most notoriously evil men came into power there, Mao Zedong, the mastermind of famine and suffering. The great western nations knew that China was now compromised, it became a part of that thug axis that created the gulags and the great leap forward. As a result China could no longer be trusted to sign any treaties and was thus blocked by the USA from signing anything, a very smart move by the USA actually.
回复John Chan，Anon
你俩都还停留在过去，并拒绝放手让它过去，那就是为什么在亚洲从来没有和平和繁荣的原因，因为你俩以及其他中国人拒绝忘记二战，既往不咎。你们的宣传中有太多严重的错误，让吾为尔等指点一二：
1、旧金山和平条约是由48个主权国家一起缔结的；所有这些国家都代表了和平以及让过去留在过去的意愿，并开始着手为日本及德国规划一个更好的未来。他们都意识到，日本已经受够了惩罚，再在日本身上加诸更多的伤害，这种做法是不公平的，且有虐待特质。拒绝签署的国家都是一些共产主义邪恶轴心国家，在出席大会的51个国家中，只有3个国家拒绝签订旧金山条约。清晰的迹象表明，他们是一群暴徒，想要对一个痛苦的被击败的对手施加更多的伤害。（译者注：Jean-Paul你大爷的！）
2、中国当时还在打内战，且有着两个代议政府，因此它不具备签署任何条约的条件。在二战中承受了成千上万的伤亡后，中国变成了一个虐待狂国家，它仍想看到更多的流血事件和痛苦，因此它拿自己开刀。内战后，最声名狼藉的一个邪恶的男人把持了权力，毛泽东，饥荒及苦难的优秀策划者。伟大的西方国家知道，此中国非彼中国，它成为了一个创造出集中营和大跃进的邪恶轴心国家。因此，中国不再被信任能签署任何协议且被美国封锁不得签署任何东西，实际上，这是美国的一个明智之举。
Boz(idar) January 25, 2013 at 4:42 am
John Chan, correct and good comment…thanks.
John Chan，非常正确及优秀的评论。。。谢谢亲。
John Chan January 25, 2013 at 6:51 am
回复Jean-Paul,
Time cannot erase crimes that have not been redeemed, such as the crimes the French committed as the collaborator of the Nazi, culture genocide and war crimes in Vietnam, the bombing and killing in Libya, its colonial oppression crimes in Africa, … Particularly when those perpetrators are re-offending the crimes they committed before; French warlord action in Mali is an example.
The San Francisco Treaty is a betrayal of Cairo and Potsdam Declarations by the USA, the betrayal is the betrayal of Asians’ struggle against the barbaric Fascist Japanese for liberty, justice and equality, the betrayal made the USA and all other signatories de factor accomplice of Fascism.
回复Jean-Paul
时间也不能抹去那些尚未被救赎的罪行，比如法国承诺成为纳粹分子的同伴的那些罪行，在越南的那些文化灭绝及战争罪行，利比亚的轰炸及屠戮，它在法国的那些压迫殖民罪行，。。。特别是当他们重蹈覆辙时；法国在马里的军事行动就是个例子。
旧金山协议是由美国一手操纵的，对开罗宣言以及波茨坦公告的背叛。这种背叛是对亚洲人民，为了自由、正义以及平等而与野蛮的日本法西斯作出的斗争的背叛，这种背叛让美国成为法西斯的共犯。
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Anon January 25, 2013 at 12:30 am
How about your own "hatred" for China? Come now, don't act like a high school child, ad hominems and personal attacks are ONLY for those who cannot handle arguments based on FACTS. So basically Japn's beef over the Kurils is based on the same as that upon which China is staking its claim for Diaoyu Islands, that those islands were not part of the Kurils, just as the Diaoyu Islands were never part of the Ryukyus or Mainland Japan, as per Cairo Declaration of 1943 "Japan will also be expelled from all other territories which she has taken by violence and greed"..
However, both parties DID come to an agreement, but it was blocked by Japan's Master, the US.
"During the 1956 peace talks between Japan and the Soviet Union, the Soviet side proposed to settle the dispute by returning Shikotan and Habomai to Japan. In the final round of the talks, the Japanese side accepted the weakness of its claim to Etorofu and Kunashiri and agreed to settle for return of Shikotan and the Habomais, in exchange for a peace treaty. However, the Americans intervened and blocked the deal."
It is obvious whose black hand lies behind all the trouble brewing in the North Pacific.
As for Russia and Japan partnering to "counter China", this must be one of the funniest jokes ever made on The Diplomat…come now, Russia just completed its LARGEST ever Post WW2 Naval Exercises and the target isn't China.
http://english.pravda.ru/russia/politics/23-01-2013/123556-russian_navy_drills-0/
In fact, Russia will redeploy some of its most advanced nuclear subs to the North Pacific, in its own "pivot to Asia", and has already conducted joint military exercises with China in the Yellow Sea. Again, it's obvious, both nations need each other in countering the greatest threat to their development, the UNIPOLAR, UNDEMOCRATIC world order. Japan is but a pawn in this Great Game.
你自己对中国的“仇视”又是怎样的？来吧，别像个高中生一样，感情用事和人身攻击只适合那些无法以事实作为基础进行辩论的人。因此基本上日本肉货对于千岛群岛的要求与中国人对于钓鱼岛主权的声明是一样的，那些岛屿不是千岛群岛的一部分，就如同钓鱼岛从来都不是琉球群岛或日本大陆的一部分一样。依据1943年开罗宣言中的“日本将归还所有那些她通过暴力及贪婪而获得的领土”。。。
然而，所有与会方确实都同意这一点，但这一共识被日本的主人—美国所阻止。“1956年，日本与苏联进行和平会谈期间，苏方提出，将色丹岛及齿舞岛归还给日本以给这一岛屿纷争画上句号。在谈判的最后一轮，日本接受了他们对于择捉岛和国后岛的领土要求是不切实际的这一现实情况，并同意接受色丹岛以及齿舞岛以缔结一个和平约定。然而，美国人对此作出干涉并阻止了这一交易的达成。”
很明显，谁在北太平洋所有麻烦的搅屎棍。
至于俄罗斯与日本合作“对抗中国”，这一定是《外交家》开过的最搞笑的玩笑。。。现实点，俄罗斯刚刚结束了其二战后最大规模的海军演习，而目标不是中国。
http://english.pravda.ru/russia/politics/23-01-2013/123556-russian_navy_drills-0/
事实上，俄罗斯在其“亚洲支点”，将部署一些最先进的核潜艇进入北太平洋，并已经于中国在黄海开展了联合军事演习。我再说一次，很明显，这两个国家需要彼此以反击对他们的发展而言最大的威胁，单极的、不民主的世界秩序。在这场伟大的游戏中，日本不过是颗棋子而已。
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Nirvana January 25, 2013 at 1:41 am
@ Anon,
It is true that because of the Cold War, in 1956 the US blocked a deal that could have resulted in a peace Treaty between Japan and the Soviets (note that I am not defending this particular move by the US here).
The fact is that you pretend that Japan took possession of the Senkaku "by violence and greed", whereas it is not the case for these territories. Furthermore, you can not explain why the PRC signed a peace Treaty with Japan while today it considers that there are outstanding WW2 issues. You don't sign Peace and Friendship Treaty with a robber, unless "friendship" and "peace" are always hollow words in your culture.
In one case two nations are trying to close the WW2 chapter, through dialogue. In the other case, two nations HAD already put WW2 behind, but 20 years later one of the signatory has an afterthought and tries to reopen the wounds.
回复Anon
这确实是真的，因为冷战，1956年，美国阻止一场可能导致日苏签订和平条约的交易（注意：我在这儿不是为美国这一行为进行辩护）。
事实是，你假定日本通过“暴力和贪婪”获得尖阁列岛，但这些领土并非如此。此外，你无法解释，为什么中华人民共和国与日本签署了和平条约，而今天它却认为还有些二战遗留问题。你不能跟一个强盗签署和平友好条约，除非“友好”和“和平”在你的文化中，总是空话。
一边，两国正试图通过对话给二战打个结。另一边，两个国家已经将二战抛诸脑后，但是20年后，签署国中的一方有了事后的想法，并试图揭开那些伤疤。
Anon January 25, 2013 at 3:36 am
Cold War or Not, WHY would a peace-loving benevolent nation on the lookout for its allies' interest oppose the peaceful settlement that is agreeable to its KEY ally, Japan? Japan wanted (and still do) to sign a Peace Treaty with its neighbor and settle a difficult border problem once and for all, WHY can't it make its own political decisions? Is Japan now a pawn in US "pivot to Asia", committing political harakiri?
Of course Japan took Diaoyu Islands by violence and greed – at the time of annexation of Diaoyus, it PICKED A WAR with China with the objective of seizing China's territories, including Taiwan, resulting in Shimonoseki. Before that, several diplomatic exchanges among Japan's politicians acknowledged that these islands had Chinese names and that the Chinese were upset to have come across markers left by the Japanese on the islands.
Even if you want to pursue the angle that the islands were part of the Ryukyus (as erroneously and illegally designated by Maj. David Ogden in 1953 without knowledge of China or Taiwan), the Ryukyus were also force ably annexed by Japan, and Japan was only awarded ADMINISTRATIVE rights over Ryukyus/Okinawa.
The TRUTH is that the US has forbidden its "allies" from acting independently from its diktats, and Japan is but a sorry piece on its geopolitical chessboard.
Nobody knows what kind of "G2" relationship overtures Obama sent to China, but China was cool in its reception. This no doubt entails China joining the NATO axis to neutralize Russia at its Far Eastern flank, 'for us or against us". China trades with all of its partners without demanding "preconditions or regime change" – it's a difficult country to demonize, unlike Iran, but of course proxies can be useful in stirring up trouble and the media propaganda blitz. Obama is adept at using proxies, eg. the French in Libya, Mali and Syria, probably to keep his Nobel Peace Prize.
However, an unforseen circumstance of the Hegemon overplaying its hand is for China to join Russia and co-defend their Pacific flank. This frees up Russia to meet the encirclement by NATO head on, and this time, the tables might be turned – the next Empire after the USSR to fall could be the US, now fighting on several fronts.
After 2008, the US could have cleaned house, worked out a more lasting framework for peace among all the powers, including BRIC, focus on reviving its own and the global economy, thus hold on to its own leadership position for a few decades longer. Instead, it stuck to the Neo-Con script, and by dangerously starting and fueling fires all over the world, it would likely trigger larger conflicts that not only hurt its allies but precipitates its own Empire collapse.
冷战与否，为什么一个关注盟友利益的爱好和平的善良的国家会反对和平解决纷争，日本，这是向关键盟友示好么？日本过去想要（现在仍然想要）与它的邻国签署一个和平条约并一劳永逸地解决其复杂的边界问题，为什么它不能自己做出政治决定呢？日本现在是美国“亚洲轴心”策略中的一个准备进行政治切腹的小卒么？
日本当然是通过暴力和贪婪夺取的钓鱼岛——在其吞并钓鱼岛的时候，为了夺取包括台湾在内的中国领土，它选择对中国发动一场战争，即下关之战。在那之前，一些日本政治家之间的几封外交书信承认，这些岛屿有其中国名字，并且中国在无意中发现日本人在岛屿上留下的标志时，对此表达了不满。
即使你想从这些岛屿是琉球群岛的一部分这个角度（1953年由对中国及台湾一无所知的Maj. David Ogden非法指定及误导）来辩论的话，（事实是）琉球群岛同样是被日本通过武力夺取的，其日本仅仅是对琉球群岛/冲绳实施管辖权而已。
事实是美国禁止其“盟友”脱离其束缚，独立行动；但是日本只是美国地缘政治棋盘上，悲剧的一个棋子而已。
没有人知道奥巴马将什么样的“G2”意见送到了中国，不过中国很酷地进行了应对。这无疑需要中国加入北约以制衡在其远东侧翼的俄罗斯，“为了我们或者反对我们”。中国与其所有的合作伙伴交易时，都没有附带“先决条件或政权更迭”的要求——它是个很难被妖魔化的国家，不像伊朗，但是，当然挑起麻烦的时候，代理人是很有用处的，比如在利比亚、马里以及叙利亚冲突中法国的角色，很可能有助于保持其（奥巴马）的诺贝尔和平奖。然而，夸大其辞的霸权国所无法预料的环境是中国联合俄罗斯，共同防御太平洋的一侧。这让俄罗斯能腾出手来应对北约对它的包围，这一次，桌子可能会被掀翻哦——紧随着苏维埃社会主义共和国联盟陨落的第二个帝国可能就是现在同时作战于几条线的美国。
2008年之后，在所有大国中，包括金砖四国，美国本来有机会扫清障碍，为和平制定一个更加持有的框架，集中注意力恢复它自己的以及全球经济，从而在未来的几十年或者更久的时间里，守护好自己的领袖地位。但是，它却固守着新保守主义，不顾危险满世界放火，它可能会引发更大的冲突，这样不但会伤及其盟友，更有可能造成美帝国的崩溃。
Jean-Paul January 25, 2013 at 4:22 am
回复John Chan, Anon
Both of you are still stuck in the past and refuse to let go of it, that is why there will never be peace and prosperity in Asia, because both of you and the rest of China refuse to put WW2 behind you and let bygones be bygones.
There are some serious errors in your propaganda, let me address a few of them for you:
1. The San Francisco peace treaty was ratified by 48 sovereign nations; all of these nations represented peace and a willingness to leave the past in the past and begin building a better future for both Japan and Germany. They realized that Japan had suffered enough and to inflict anymore harm upon them would simply be unfair and sadistic. The only nations that had refused to sign the treaty were part of the commie thug axis and, of the 51 nations present, only 3 refused to sign. A clear sign that they are a bunch of thugs that wants to inflict more harm on a defeated suffering opponent.
2. China had not stopped fighting its civil war and had two representative governments at that time so therefore it was in no condition to sign a treaty on anything at all. After suffering millions of casualties in WW2, china, being the sadistic nation that it is still wanted to see more bloodshed and suffering so it turned on itself. After that civil war one of the most notoriously evil men came into power there, Mao Zedong, the mastermind of famine and suffering. The great western nations knew that China was now compromised, it became a part of that thug axis that created the gulags and the great leap forward. As a result China could no longer be trusted to sign any treaties and was thus blocked by the USA from signing anything, a very smart move by the USA actually.
回复John Chan，Anon
你俩都还停留在过去，并拒绝放手让它过去，那就是为什么在亚洲从来没有和平和繁荣的原因，因为你俩以及其他中国人拒绝忘记二战，既往不咎。你们的宣传中有太多严重的错误，让吾为尔等指点一二：
1、旧金山和平条约是由48个主权国家一起缔结的；所有这些国家都代表了和平以及让过去留在过去的意愿，并开始着手为日本及德国规划一个更好的未来。他们都意识到，日本已经受够了惩罚，再在日本身上加诸更多的伤害，这种做法是不公平的，且有虐待特质。拒绝签署的国家都是一些共产主义邪恶轴心国家，在出席大会的51个国家中，只有3个国家拒绝签订旧金山条约。清晰的迹象表明，他们是一群暴徒，想要对一个痛苦的被击败的对手施加更多的伤害。（译者注：Jean-Paul你大爷的！）
2、中国当时还在打内战，且有着两个代议政府，因此它不具备签署任何条约的条件。在二战中承受了成千上万的伤亡后，中国变成了一个虐待狂国家，它仍想看到更多的流血事件和痛苦，因此它拿自己开刀。内战后，最声名狼藉的一个邪恶的男人把持了权力，毛泽东，饥荒及苦难的优秀策划者。伟大的西方国家知道，此中国非彼中国，它成为了一个创造出集中营和大跃进的邪恶轴心国家。因此，中国不再被信任能签署任何协议且被美国封锁不得签署任何东西，实际上，这是美国的一个明智之举。
Boz(idar) January 25, 2013 at 4:42 am
John Chan, correct and good comment…thanks.
John Chan，非常正确及优秀的评论。。。谢谢亲。
John Chan January 25, 2013 at 6:51 am
回复Jean-Paul,
Time cannot erase crimes that have not been redeemed, such as the crimes the French committed as the collaborator of the Nazi, culture genocide and war crimes in Vietnam, the bombing and killing in Libya, its colonial oppression crimes in Africa, … Particularly when those perpetrators are re-offending the crimes they committed before; French warlord action in Mali is an example.
The San Francisco Treaty is a betrayal of Cairo and Potsdam Declarations by the USA, the betrayal is the betrayal of Asians’ struggle against the barbaric Fascist Japanese for liberty, justice and equality, the betrayal made the USA and all other signatories de factor accomplice of Fascism.
回复Jean-Paul
时间也不能抹去那些尚未被救赎的罪行，比如法国承诺成为纳粹分子的同伴的那些罪行，在越南的那些文化灭绝及战争罪行，利比亚的轰炸及屠戮，它在法国的那些压迫殖民罪行，。。。特别是当他们重蹈覆辙时；法国在马里的军事行动就是个例子。
旧金山协议是由美国一手操纵的，对开罗宣言以及波茨坦公告的背叛。这种背叛是对亚洲人民，为了自由、正义以及平等而与野蛮的日本法西斯作出的斗争的背叛，这种背叛让美国成为法西斯的共犯。
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Anon January 25, 2013 at 12:30 am
How about your own "hatred" for China? Come now, don't act like a high school child, ad hominems and personal attacks are ONLY for those who cannot handle arguments based on FACTS. So basically Japn's beef over the Kurils is based on the same as that upon which China is staking its claim for Diaoyu Islands, that those islands were not part of the Kurils, just as the Diaoyu Islands were never part of the Ryukyus or Mainland Japan, as per Cairo Declaration of 1943 "Japan will also be expelled from all other territories which she has taken by violence and greed"..
However, both parties DID come to an agreement, but it was blocked by Japan's Master, the US.
"During the 1956 peace talks between Japan and the Soviet Union, the Soviet side proposed to settle the dispute by returning Shikotan and Habomai to Japan. In the final round of the talks, the Japanese side accepted the weakness of its claim to Etorofu and Kunashiri and agreed to settle for return of Shikotan and the Habomais, in exchange for a peace treaty. However, the Americans intervened and blocked the deal."
It is obvious whose black hand lies behind all the trouble brewing in the North Pacific.
As for Russia and Japan partnering to "counter China", this must be one of the funniest jokes ever made on The Diplomat…come now, Russia just completed its LARGEST ever Post WW2 Naval Exercises and the target isn't China.
http://english.pravda.ru/russia/politics/23-01-2013/123556-russian_navy_drills-0/
In fact, Russia will redeploy some of its most advanced nuclear subs to the North Pacific, in its own "pivot to Asia", and has already conducted joint military exercises with China in the Yellow Sea. Again, it's obvious, both nations need each other in countering the greatest threat to their development, the UNIPOLAR, UNDEMOCRATIC world order. Japan is but a pawn in this Great Game.
你自己对中国的“仇视”又是怎样的？来吧，别像个高中生一样，感情用事和人身攻击只适合那些无法以事实作为基础进行辩论的人。因此基本上日本肉货对于千岛群岛的要求与中国人对于钓鱼岛主权的声明是一样的，那些岛屿不是千岛群岛的一部分，就如同钓鱼岛从来都不是琉球群岛或日本大陆的一部分一样。依据1943年开罗宣言中的“日本将归还所有那些她通过暴力及贪婪而获得的领土”。。。
然而，所有与会方确实都同意这一点，但这一共识被日本的主人—美国所阻止。“1956年，日本与苏联进行和平会谈期间，苏方提出，将色丹岛及齿舞岛归还给日本以给这一岛屿纷争画上句号。在谈判的最后一轮，日本接受了他们对于择捉岛和国后岛的领土要求是不切实际的这一现实情况，并同意接受色丹岛以及齿舞岛以缔结一个和平约定。然而，美国人对此作出干涉并阻止了这一交易的达成。”
很明显，谁在北太平洋所有麻烦的搅屎棍。
至于俄罗斯与日本合作“对抗中国”，这一定是《外交家》开过的最搞笑的玩笑。。。现实点，俄罗斯刚刚结束了其二战后最大规模的海军演习，而目标不是中国。
http://english.pravda.ru/russia/politics/23-01-2013/123556-russian_navy_drills-0/
事实上，俄罗斯在其“亚洲支点”，将部署一些最先进的核潜艇进入北太平洋，并已经于中国在黄海开展了联合军事演习。我再说一次，很明显，这两个国家需要彼此以反击对他们的发展而言最大的威胁，单极的、不民主的世界秩序。在这场伟大的游戏中，日本不过是颗棋子而已。
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Nirvana January 25, 2013 at 1:41 am
@ Anon,
It is true that because of the Cold War, in 1956 the US blocked a deal that could have resulted in a peace Treaty between Japan and the Soviets (note that I am not defending this particular move by the US here).
The fact is that you pretend that Japan took possession of the Senkaku "by violence and greed", whereas it is not the case for these territories. Furthermore, you can not explain why the PRC signed a peace Treaty with Japan while today it considers that there are outstanding WW2 issues. You don't sign Peace and Friendship Treaty with a robber, unless "friendship" and "peace" are always hollow words in your culture.
In one case two nations are trying to close the WW2 chapter, through dialogue. In the other case, two nations HAD already put WW2 behind, but 20 years later one of the signatory has an afterthought and tries to reopen the wounds.
回复Anon
这确实是真的，因为冷战，1956年，美国阻止一场可能导致日苏签订和平条约的交易（注意：我在这儿不是为美国这一行为进行辩护）。
事实是，你假定日本通过“暴力和贪婪”获得尖阁列岛，但这些领土并非如此。此外，你无法解释，为什么中华人民共和国与日本签署了和平条约，而今天它却认为还有些二战遗留问题。你不能跟一个强盗签署和平友好条约，除非“友好”和“和平”在你的文化中，总是空话。
一边，两国正试图通过对话给二战打个结。另一边，两个国家已经将二战抛诸脑后，但是20年后，签署国中的一方有了事后的想法，并试图揭开那些伤疤。
Anon January 25, 2013 at 3:36 am
Cold War or Not, WHY would a peace-loving benevolent nation on the lookout for its allies' interest oppose the peaceful settlement that is agreeable to its KEY ally, Japan? Japan wanted (and still do) to sign a Peace Treaty with its neighbor and settle a difficult border problem once and for all, WHY can't it make its own political decisions? Is Japan now a pawn in US "pivot to Asia", committing political harakiri?
Of course Japan took Diaoyu Islands by violence and greed – at the time of annexation of Diaoyus, it PICKED A WAR with China with the objective of seizing China's territories, including Taiwan, resulting in Shimonoseki. Before that, several diplomatic exchanges among Japan's politicians acknowledged that these islands had Chinese names and that the Chinese were upset to have come across markers left by the Japanese on the islands.
Even if you want to pursue the angle that the islands were part of the Ryukyus (as erroneously and illegally designated by Maj. David Ogden in 1953 without knowledge of China or Taiwan), the Ryukyus were also force ably annexed by Japan, and Japan was only awarded ADMINISTRATIVE rights over Ryukyus/Okinawa.
The TRUTH is that the US has forbidden its "allies" from acting independently from its diktats, and Japan is but a sorry piece on its geopolitical chessboard.
Nobody knows what kind of "G2" relationship overtures Obama sent to China, but China was cool in its reception. This no doubt entails China joining the NATO axis to neutralize Russia at its Far Eastern flank, 'for us or against us". China trades with all of its partners without demanding "preconditions or regime change" – it's a difficult country to demonize, unlike Iran, but of course proxies can be useful in stirring up trouble and the media propaganda blitz. Obama is adept at using proxies, eg. the French in Libya, Mali and Syria, probably to keep his Nobel Peace Prize.
However, an unforseen circumstance of the Hegemon overplaying its hand is for China to join Russia and co-defend their Pacific flank. This frees up Russia to meet the encirclement by NATO head on, and this time, the tables might be turned – the next Empire after the USSR to fall could be the US, now fighting on several fronts.
After 2008, the US could have cleaned house, worked out a more lasting framework for peace among all the powers, including BRIC, focus on reviving its own and the global economy, thus hold on to its own leadership position for a few decades longer. Instead, it stuck to the Neo-Con script, and by dangerously starting and fueling fires all over the world, it would likely trigger larger conflicts that not only hurt its allies but precipitates its own Empire collapse.
冷战与否，为什么一个关注盟友利益的爱好和平的善良的国家会反对和平解决纷争，日本，这是向关键盟友示好么？日本过去想要（现在仍然想要）与它的邻国签署一个和平条约并一劳永逸地解决其复杂的边界问题，为什么它不能自己做出政治决定呢？日本现在是美国“亚洲轴心”策略中的一个准备进行政治切腹的小卒么？
日本当然是通过暴力和贪婪夺取的钓鱼岛——在其吞并钓鱼岛的时候，为了夺取包括台湾在内的中国领土，它选择对中国发动一场战争，即下关之战。在那之前，一些日本政治家之间的几封外交书信承认，这些岛屿有其中国名字，并且中国在无意中发现日本人在岛屿上留下的标志时，对此表达了不满。
即使你想从这些岛屿是琉球群岛的一部分这个角度（1953年由对中国及台湾一无所知的Maj. David Ogden非法指定及误导）来辩论的话，（事实是）琉球群岛同样是被日本通过武力夺取的，其日本仅仅是对琉球群岛/冲绳实施管辖权而已。
事实是美国禁止其“盟友”脱离其束缚，独立行动；但是日本只是美国地缘政治棋盘上，悲剧的一个棋子而已。
没有人知道奥巴马将什么样的“G2”意见送到了中国，不过中国很酷地进行了应对。这无疑需要中国加入北约以制衡在其远东侧翼的俄罗斯，“为了我们或者反对我们”。中国与其所有的合作伙伴交易时，都没有附带“先决条件或政权更迭”的要求——它是个很难被妖魔化的国家，不像伊朗，但是，当然挑起麻烦的时候，代理人是很有用处的，比如在利比亚、马里以及叙利亚冲突中法国的角色，很可能有助于保持其（奥巴马）的诺贝尔和平奖。然而，夸大其辞的霸权国所无法预料的环境是中国联合俄罗斯，共同防御太平洋的一侧。这让俄罗斯能腾出手来应对北约对它的包围，这一次，桌子可能会被掀翻哦——紧随着苏维埃社会主义共和国联盟陨落的第二个帝国可能就是现在同时作战于几条线的美国。
2008年之后，在所有大国中，包括金砖四国，美国本来有机会扫清障碍，为和平制定一个更加持有的框架，集中注意力恢复它自己的以及全球经济，从而在未来的几十年或者更久的时间里，守护好自己的领袖地位。但是，它却固守着新保守主义，不顾危险满世界放火，它可能会引发更大的冲突，这样不但会伤及其盟友，更有可能造成美帝国的崩溃。
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John Chan January 25, 2013 at 6:36 am
@Stefan Stackhouse,
Neither Americas and Australia are geographic part of European peninsular, nor Hawaii, Guam, midway, Tahiti and Diego Garcia are geographic part of European peninsular, why do you believe it is not really outrageous that the Europeans are claiming as theirs, while Russia claiming Kuril Islands is outrageous? Are you trying to demonstrate double think, double speak and hypocrisy a European forte?
回复Stefan Stackhouse
无论美洲还是澳洲从地理上看都不属于欧洲半岛的一部分，夏威夷、关岛、中途岛、大溪地、加西亚岛也不是欧洲半岛的一部分，你为什么认为欧洲人声称这些地方是他们的就不是很过分，而俄罗斯对千岛群岛的主权要求就很过分呢？你是在展示欧洲佬擅长的双重标准和虚伪么？
@nirvana,
Treaties, accords or agreements are signed by the participants in good faith; it depends on the participants’ integrity to observe the terms they signed, when one of the participants breaks the terms of the treaty they signed, the treaty basically become null and void even without official declaration.
China wanted to put the past behind her, it took a brave step forward to trust its former aggressor, the Fascist imperialist Japan, and signed a peace treaty with Japan in good faith without demanding Japan to demonstrate its integrity and sincerity. Unfortunately history has proved China naive, it was too kinder and gentler to trust a diehard Fascist, imperialist, aggressor and unapologetic war criminal, Japan, which has no intention to be a peaceful neighbour, and to close the WW2 chapter, but instead it views China’s conciliatory approach as weakness and it is its entitlement to take advantage on China as it had done since the time of Meiji.
You ignore Japan breaking the Peace and Friendship Treaty at will and yet blaming China not observing the Treaty when it takes action to rebutting Japan’s dishonesty and aggression; you surely establish yourself a neocon American Exceptionalism, king of law of jungle, and war criminal apologist.
回复nirvana
条约、协议或者契约都是各参与方本着诚心签署的；它依靠参与方的诚信来遵守他们所签署的条款，当签署方中的一方违反他们所签署的条款时，条约甚至在无需官方声明的情况下，基本上就变得无效了。
中国想要将过去抛下，它迈出了勇敢的一步，决定信任昔日的侵略者——日本法西斯帝国主义，在没有要求日本展示它的正直与诚信的基础上，本着诚意，与日本签订了和平条约。不幸的是，历史证明了中国的天真，它太友善，太温和以至于相信了一个顽固法西斯主义、帝国主义、侵略者和死不认错的犯有战争罪的日本；日本根本无意成为一个友好的邻国，也无意翻过二战这一篇，取而代之的是，它将中国的和解方法视为软弱，就像它从明治时代开始，对中国所做的那样，这不过是它利用中国。
你罔顾日本随意打破和平友好条约的事实，反而在中国采取行动反驳日本的欺诈以及侵犯时，责备中国不遵守这一条约；你就宣示了你自己是一个新保守主义派的美国例外论者，尊崇丛林法则并且是个战犯辩护者。
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Skita January 25, 2013 at 1:00 am
In fact it is not totally correct. Japan attacked the Russian army in the Battles of Khalkhin Gol
in 1939 in Mongolia. The famous Zhukov general started is career there, beating the japanese before going to Moscow and then stalingrad against the germans.
So important were these battles for the Japanese, they refused to attack the russians as requested by the germansand insteaddecided to attack the US – their first objective was to test the russians to a future attack on eastern siberia.
事实上，它并不是完全正确。1939年，在蒙古的诺门坎战役中，日本向俄罗斯发起攻击。著名的朱可夫将军自此开始了他的职业生涯，在去莫斯科及斯大林格勒反击德国人之前，狠揍了日本人。
这些战役给日本造成的影响如此重要，以至于他们拒绝按照德国人的要求攻打俄罗斯人，取而代之的是去攻击美国——他们的第一个目标是，为了未来在西伯利亚东部的进攻，试探一下俄罗斯人。
Boz(idar) January 25, 2013 at 4:55 am
Bravo…!…this is one of correct comments..!
太棒了！！。。。这也是一个正确的评论！
Peter Lewis January 25, 2013 at 11:31 am
This is a historical fact and only ignorance, clouds those who do not and will not see.
Japan did attack Russia, hoping to grab Siberia as part of their Evil Greater Japan Empire but was defeated by the renown Russian General who subsequently went on to defeat the Germans.
If Japan harbour any hope of getting these Kuriles islands back, they have made a fatal mistake in keeping the Dioyutai instead of returning them to China. After all, these Kuriles islands are real big island real estates with a lot, lot more values. In steadfasting holding on to the Dioyutai, they have put themselves in a very bad light and position. The Russian are not blind and they know where they stand and Japan bad behaviour has destroy any hope of ever getting them back, short of going to war with Russsia. Bad luck Japan!!
这是历史真相，只有那些无知的人，阴暗的人才不会也不愿看到。
日本确实攻击了俄罗斯，希望将西伯利亚纳入他们邪恶的大日本帝国的版图中，但是被著名的俄罗斯将军击败，该将军随后继续击败了德国人。
如果日本怀有任何拿回千岛群岛的希望，他们已经在拒不将钓鱼岛还给中国这件事上犯了一个致命的错误。毕竟，这些千岛群岛是比钓鱼岛有着多得多的价值的大岛。死抓着钓鱼岛不放，他们已经把自己推进了死角。俄罗斯人不是瞎子，他们知道自己所处的位置，除非日本不惜与俄罗斯一战，其恶行已经摧毁了想要拿回这些岛的所有希望。日本倒霉蛋！！
！
Nirvana January 26, 2013 at 1:07 am
@peter Lewis,
What a tortuous argument!What makes you think that handing the Senkakus to China will provide a lever for Japan to get back the 4 islands that are part (or perhaps not) of the Kurils?
Perhaps you are alluding to the fact that, at one time during the Cold War China proposed to back Japan in its "fight" against the Soviets over the Kurils. Then I would like to draw your attention to the fact that China is courting the Hun Sen government, the Hun Sen that was the deadly enemy of China's ally Pol Pot when China was targeting the Soviets. In the same vein, China attacked Vietnam (South and North) with the US complicity while everybody knows how China helped Ho Chi Minh when China was targeting the US, in complicity with the Soviets. Nobody is really an angel in the Cold War era, but having a deal with the PRC is tantamount to selling your soul to Satan. The Soviets got a taste of it, India got a taste of it, Tibet got a taste of it, Vietnam got a taste of it, Cambodia got a taste of it, and the US is now meditating on it. Let's see what Iran and Syria think in a couple of years.
There are many nations that have become friends after bitter wars. But I don't know which nation can surpass the PRC in the number of bitter wars it had with former "comrades","friendly neighbors" or "strategic partners".
回复Peter Lewis
多么扭曲的观点！你凭什么认为把尖阁列岛给中国，能为日本拿回这四个属于（或可能不属于）千岛群岛的岛屿树立起标杆？也许你是指的这个事实，那就是在冷战的时候，有次中国提出支持日本对抗俄罗斯以拿回千岛群岛的“战斗”。然而，我想提醒你注意这一事实，那就是中国正在讨好洪森政府，洪森政府可是当初中国与苏联针锋相对的时候，其盟友波尔布特的死敌。同样，中国与美国一道攻击越南（南越以及北越）；而大家都知道当中国与苏联串通一气，针对美国的时候，中国是如何帮助胡志明的。在冷战时代，没有谁真的是天使，但是与中华人民共和国做交易，无异于你将灵魂卖给撒旦。苏联尝过它的厉害，印度也尝过它的厉害，XZ、越南柬埔寨都尝过它的厉害，并且美国在有关它的问题上，正在沉思。让我们看看伊朗和叙利亚在一两年后会怎么想。
有许多国家在经历痛苦的战争后，变成了朋友。但我不知道有哪个国家在痛苦的战争数量方面能过超越中华人民共和国与前“同志们”、“友邻”或“战略伙伴”之间发生的战争的数量。
John Chan January 26, 2013 at 6:48 am
@nirvans,
The USA is the first in the list of treacherous nations you should get that has bitter wars with former “allies, comrades, friendly neighbors, or strategic partners.”
China was USA’s comrade in WWII, then became sworn enemy in the Korean War, then became strategic partners in the Cold War, then became assertive “China Threat” in the bitter war of pivoting to Asia.
Russia was USA’s comrade in the struggle over evil Axis Powers, then became an evil empire in the Cold War, then became friendly partner after the collapse of USSR, then became strategy competitor that deserves anti-ballistic missiles encirclement when it wants to break Russia further more.
Japan was USA friendly neighbors to make money before WWII, then became evil Fascist aggressor in a lengthy bitter war that costed millions of American lives in WWII, then becomes a strategic partner to advance its imperialist hegemony in Asia.
Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Panama, France, Italy, Germany, the Philippines, … the nations that were flip-flopped by the USA from friend to enemy and back nearly cover the all membership in the UN.
nirvans, are you sure you are not just born yesterday? In case you are just born yesterday, here is a piece of advice you should never forget “American does not have allies, but only tools; once a tool is done, selling the tool is American way of life.” Filipino cannot escape the fate of American tool, even they kiss American behind enthusiastically.
回复nirvans
你应该知道，美国是那个有关与前“盟友们、同志们、友邻们或者战略伙伴”之间发生痛苦的战争的名单上的头一名。
二战期间，中国可是美国的伙伴，然而在朝鲜战争中变成了不同戴天的仇敌，然后又在冷战期间变成了战略伙伴，然后在亚洲轴心的惨烈的战争中，被断定为“中国威胁”。
俄罗斯曾是美国对抗邪恶轴心国时的伙伴，然后在冷战中变成了一个邪恶的帝国，然后在苏维埃社会主义共和国联盟崩溃后，变成了一个友好伙伴，然后当美国想进一步打击俄罗斯时，俄罗斯变成了被反弹道导弹包围的战略竞争对手。
在二战之前，日本是美国赚钱的友邻国家，然后在二战那场导致美国数百万伤亡的漫长而又惨烈的战争变成了邪恶的法西斯侵略者，然后在美国推进其在亚洲的帝国主义霸权时，日本又成为战略伙伴。
越南、阿富汗、伊拉克、利比亚、巴拿马、法国、意大利、德国、菲律宾。。。这些由美国从朋友变成敌人，又变回朋友的国家，几乎都要遍布联合国所有的成员国了。
Nirvans，你确定你不是个小屁孩？如果你是个小屁孩，这里有条你永远不该忘记的建议，“美国人没有盟友，只有工具；一旦工具用够了，卖掉这个工具是美国人的生活方式。”菲律宾人逃脱不了做美国工具的命运，即使他们跟着美国背后，热情地亲吻美国人。
John Chan January 25, 2013 at 6:36 am
@Stefan Stackhouse,
Neither Americas and Australia are geographic part of European peninsular, nor Hawaii, Guam, midway, Tahiti and Diego Garcia are geographic part of European peninsular, why do you believe it is not really outrageous that the Europeans are claiming as theirs, while Russia claiming Kuril Islands is outrageous? Are you trying to demonstrate double think, double speak and hypocrisy a European forte?
回复Stefan Stackhouse
无论美洲还是澳洲从地理上看都不属于欧洲半岛的一部分，夏威夷、关岛、中途岛、大溪地、加西亚岛也不是欧洲半岛的一部分，你为什么认为欧洲人声称这些地方是他们的就不是很过分，而俄罗斯对千岛群岛的主权要求就很过分呢？你是在展示欧洲佬擅长的双重标准和虚伪么？
@nirvana,
Treaties, accords or agreements are signed by the participants in good faith; it depends on the participants’ integrity to observe the terms they signed, when one of the participants breaks the terms of the treaty they signed, the treaty basically become null and void even without official declaration.
China wanted to put the past behind her, it took a brave step forward to trust its former aggressor, the Fascist imperialist Japan, and signed a peace treaty with Japan in good faith without demanding Japan to demonstrate its integrity and sincerity. Unfortunately history has proved China naive, it was too kinder and gentler to trust a diehard Fascist, imperialist, aggressor and unapologetic war criminal, Japan, which has no intention to be a peaceful neighbour, and to close the WW2 chapter, but instead it views China’s conciliatory approach as weakness and it is its entitlement to take advantage on China as it had done since the time of Meiji.
You ignore Japan breaking the Peace and Friendship Treaty at will and yet blaming China not observing the Treaty when it takes action to rebutting Japan’s dishonesty and aggression; you surely establish yourself a neocon American Exceptionalism, king of law of jungle, and war criminal apologist.
回复nirvana
条约、协议或者契约都是各参与方本着诚心签署的；它依靠参与方的诚信来遵守他们所签署的条款，当签署方中的一方违反他们所签署的条款时，条约甚至在无需官方声明的情况下，基本上就变得无效了。
中国想要将过去抛下，它迈出了勇敢的一步，决定信任昔日的侵略者——日本法西斯帝国主义，在没有要求日本展示它的正直与诚信的基础上，本着诚意，与日本签订了和平条约。不幸的是，历史证明了中国的天真，它太友善，太温和以至于相信了一个顽固法西斯主义、帝国主义、侵略者和死不认错的犯有战争罪的日本；日本根本无意成为一个友好的邻国，也无意翻过二战这一篇，取而代之的是，它将中国的和解方法视为软弱，就像它从明治时代开始，对中国所做的那样，这不过是它利用中国。
你罔顾日本随意打破和平友好条约的事实，反而在中国采取行动反驳日本的欺诈以及侵犯时，责备中国不遵守这一条约；你就宣示了你自己是一个新保守主义派的美国例外论者，尊崇丛林法则并且是个战犯辩护者。
。
Skita January 25, 2013 at 1:00 am
In fact it is not totally correct. Japan attacked the Russian army in the Battles of Khalkhin Gol
in 1939 in Mongolia. The famous Zhukov general started is career there, beating the japanese before going to Moscow and then stalingrad against the germans.
So important were these battles for the Japanese, they refused to attack the russians as requested by the germansand insteaddecided to attack the US – their first objective was to test the russians to a future attack on eastern siberia.
事实上，它并不是完全正确。1939年，在蒙古的诺门坎战役中，日本向俄罗斯发起攻击。著名的朱可夫将军自此开始了他的职业生涯，在去莫斯科及斯大林格勒反击德国人之前，狠揍了日本人。
这些战役给日本造成的影响如此重要，以至于他们拒绝按照德国人的要求攻打俄罗斯人，取而代之的是去攻击美国——他们的第一个目标是，为了未来在西伯利亚东部的进攻，试探一下俄罗斯人。
Boz(idar) January 25, 2013 at 4:55 am
Bravo…!…this is one of correct comments..!
太棒了！！。。。这也是一个正确的评论！
Peter Lewis January 25, 2013 at 11:31 am
This is a historical fact and only ignorance, clouds those who do not and will not see.
Japan did attack Russia, hoping to grab Siberia as part of their Evil Greater Japan Empire but was defeated by the renown Russian General who subsequently went on to defeat the Germans.
If Japan harbour any hope of getting these Kuriles islands back, they have made a fatal mistake in keeping the Dioyutai instead of returning them to China. After all, these Kuriles islands are real big island real estates with a lot, lot more values. In steadfasting holding on to the Dioyutai, they have put themselves in a very bad light and position. The Russian are not blind and they know where they stand and Japan bad behaviour has destroy any hope of ever getting them back, short of going to war with Russsia. Bad luck Japan!!
这是历史真相，只有那些无知的人，阴暗的人才不会也不愿看到。
日本确实攻击了俄罗斯，希望将西伯利亚纳入他们邪恶的大日本帝国的版图中，但是被著名的俄罗斯将军击败，该将军随后继续击败了德国人。
如果日本怀有任何拿回千岛群岛的希望，他们已经在拒不将钓鱼岛还给中国这件事上犯了一个致命的错误。毕竟，这些千岛群岛是比钓鱼岛有着多得多的价值的大岛。死抓着钓鱼岛不放，他们已经把自己推进了死角。俄罗斯人不是瞎子，他们知道自己所处的位置，除非日本不惜与俄罗斯一战，其恶行已经摧毁了想要拿回这些岛的所有希望。日本倒霉蛋！！
！
Nirvana January 26, 2013 at 1:07 am
@peter Lewis,
What a tortuous argument!What makes you think that handing the Senkakus to China will provide a lever for Japan to get back the 4 islands that are part (or perhaps not) of the Kurils?
Perhaps you are alluding to the fact that, at one time during the Cold War China proposed to back Japan in its "fight" against the Soviets over the Kurils. Then I would like to draw your attention to the fact that China is courting the Hun Sen government, the Hun Sen that was the deadly enemy of China's ally Pol Pot when China was targeting the Soviets. In the same vein, China attacked Vietnam (South and North) with the US complicity while everybody knows how China helped Ho Chi Minh when China was targeting the US, in complicity with the Soviets. Nobody is really an angel in the Cold War era, but having a deal with the PRC is tantamount to selling your soul to Satan. The Soviets got a taste of it, India got a taste of it, Tibet got a taste of it, Vietnam got a taste of it, Cambodia got a taste of it, and the US is now meditating on it. Let's see what Iran and Syria think in a couple of years.
There are many nations that have become friends after bitter wars. But I don't know which nation can surpass the PRC in the number of bitter wars it had with former "comrades","friendly neighbors" or "strategic partners".
回复Peter Lewis
多么扭曲的观点！你凭什么认为把尖阁列岛给中国，能为日本拿回这四个属于（或可能不属于）千岛群岛的岛屿树立起标杆？也许你是指的这个事实，那就是在冷战的时候，有次中国提出支持日本对抗俄罗斯以拿回千岛群岛的“战斗”。然而，我想提醒你注意这一事实，那就是中国正在讨好洪森政府，洪森政府可是当初中国与苏联针锋相对的时候，其盟友波尔布特的死敌。同样，中国与美国一道攻击越南（南越以及北越）；而大家都知道当中国与苏联串通一气，针对美国的时候，中国是如何帮助胡志明的。在冷战时代，没有谁真的是天使，但是与中华人民共和国做交易，无异于你将灵魂卖给撒旦。苏联尝过它的厉害，印度也尝过它的厉害，XZ、越南柬埔寨都尝过它的厉害，并且美国在有关它的问题上，正在沉思。让我们看看伊朗和叙利亚在一两年后会怎么想。
有许多国家在经历痛苦的战争后，变成了朋友。但我不知道有哪个国家在痛苦的战争数量方面能过超越中华人民共和国与前“同志们”、“友邻”或“战略伙伴”之间发生的战争的数量。
John Chan January 26, 2013 at 6:48 am
@nirvans,
The USA is the first in the list of treacherous nations you should get that has bitter wars with former “allies, comrades, friendly neighbors, or strategic partners.”
China was USA’s comrade in WWII, then became sworn enemy in the Korean War, then became strategic partners in the Cold War, then became assertive “China Threat” in the bitter war of pivoting to Asia.
Russia was USA’s comrade in the struggle over evil Axis Powers, then became an evil empire in the Cold War, then became friendly partner after the collapse of USSR, then became strategy competitor that deserves anti-ballistic missiles encirclement when it wants to break Russia further more.
Japan was USA friendly neighbors to make money before WWII, then became evil Fascist aggressor in a lengthy bitter war that costed millions of American lives in WWII, then becomes a strategic partner to advance its imperialist hegemony in Asia.
Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Panama, France, Italy, Germany, the Philippines, … the nations that were flip-flopped by the USA from friend to enemy and back nearly cover the all membership in the UN.
nirvans, are you sure you are not just born yesterday? In case you are just born yesterday, here is a piece of advice you should never forget “American does not have allies, but only tools; once a tool is done, selling the tool is American way of life.” Filipino cannot escape the fate of American tool, even they kiss American behind enthusiastically.
回复nirvans
你应该知道，美国是那个有关与前“盟友们、同志们、友邻们或者战略伙伴”之间发生痛苦的战争的名单上的头一名。
二战期间，中国可是美国的伙伴，然而在朝鲜战争中变成了不同戴天的仇敌，然后又在冷战期间变成了战略伙伴，然后在亚洲轴心的惨烈的战争中，被断定为“中国威胁”。
俄罗斯曾是美国对抗邪恶轴心国时的伙伴，然后在冷战中变成了一个邪恶的帝国，然后在苏维埃社会主义共和国联盟崩溃后，变成了一个友好伙伴，然后当美国想进一步打击俄罗斯时，俄罗斯变成了被反弹道导弹包围的战略竞争对手。
在二战之前，日本是美国赚钱的友邻国家，然后在二战那场导致美国数百万伤亡的漫长而又惨烈的战争变成了邪恶的法西斯侵略者，然后在美国推进其在亚洲的帝国主义霸权时，日本又成为战略伙伴。
越南、阿富汗、伊拉克、利比亚、巴拿马、法国、意大利、德国、菲律宾。。。这些由美国从朋友变成敌人，又变回朋友的国家，几乎都要遍布联合国所有的成员国了。
Nirvans，你确定你不是个小屁孩？如果你是个小屁孩，这里有条你永远不该忘记的建议，“美国人没有盟友，只有工具；一旦工具用够了，卖掉这个工具是美国人的生活方式。”菲律宾人逃脱不了做美国工具的命运，即使他们跟着美国背后，热情地亲吻美国人。
。
Nirvana January 27, 2013 at 1:08 am
@John Chan
You are mixing everything.
You are mixing the China (ROC) that fought along side the US in WW2 and the other China (Mao’s) hiding in caves to spare its force while their “class enemy” compatriots paid a heavy tribute against Imperial Army (check how Mao expressed his gratefulness to Japan for that). The former China (ROC) was the one fighting along side the US in South Vietnam, while the other China (Mao’s) was arming the other side.
You failed to see the difference between the alliance of convenience during war between states of different ideologies, and bitter wars between “comrades” of the same ideologies.
Perhaps you ignore that the majority of Americans do not agree with EVERYTHING their government did. Some of them also agree with you that their country has a penchant for hegemony and imperialism. But they live in a system that allows them to speak openly and act quite efficiently against such wrong doings, whether in Philippines, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Iraq,…. And whether they agree or disagree between themselves, they believe in their system.
If you ask Filipinos or Vietnamese with some education whether they trust the US government, the answer is likely no. But they also say that they have high respect for the US, for the blood sacrifice it took to save them from the worse catastrophe in WW2 (did “your China” ever say so?), and for what it did in sharing knowledge and science, and for what it did for not punishing by impoverishing its defeated enemies, and for what many Americans did by showing to the world that there is always hope for a better world when there is freedom of speech.
回复John Chan
你在混淆一切。你把二战中与美国同战线的中国（中华民国）和当自己的“阶级敌人”竭尽全力地对抗帝国主义军队时，却躲在山洞里积聚力量（核实下毛为了这点向日本表达感激之情的事吧）的那一个中国（毛领导的）相混淆。前一个中国（中华民国）在越南南部与美国并肩作战，而另一个中国（毛领导的）则在帮助另一边（北越）。
你没能看到意识形态不同的国家之间的战争与相同意识形态的“伙伴”之间更痛苦的战争，这两种战争之间临时性权宜协定的区别。
也许你无视大多数美国人并不同意他们政府所做的一切。他们中的一些人还同意你的观点，那就是他们的国家喜欢实行霸权主义和帝国主义。但是他们生活的这个国家的体制允许他们公开发表声明或有效的行动以反对这些错误的做法，无论是在菲律宾、越南、柬埔寨、老挝、伊拉克。。。。并且无论他们之间同意或不同意，他们相信他们的体制。
如果你问一些受过教育的菲律宾人或者越南人，他们是否信任美国政府，答案很可能是否定的。但是他们同样会说，他们非常尊敬美国，因为它为将他们从二战这个最惨烈的苦难中，所承载的鲜血及牺牲（“你的中国”曾这么说过么？），因为它在分享知识及科技这一方面的所作所为，因为它不会再去惩罚被它打败而陷入贫穷的敌人，因为许多美国人所做出的努力，以展示给世界看，只要有言论自由，世界变得更好的希望总是存在的。
。
Valbonne January 29, 2013 at 6:20 pm
@ Peter Lewis
What you have written is absolutely correct and has hit the nail of the whole issue. Great.
回复Peter Lewis
你写的这些绝度正确，并对整个问题的给出一针见血的分析。太棒了。
Tamagawa_D9 January 27, 2013 at 12:55 pm
Does China care about the opinion of the 1,384,762 Japanese citizens who actually inhabit Okinawa, or is their right to self-determination as nonexistent as that of Taiwan, Tibetan or Uighur populations?
中国关心实际居住在冲绳的1,384,762名日本民众的想法么，或者他们自己做决定的权力是不是跟台湾人、XZ人或者维吾尔人的一样是不存在的呢？
Leonard R. January 24, 2013 at 9:37 am
This is a logical opportunity for Abe to settle with Putin. After Fukushima, Medvedev even suggested Japanese settle on Russian soil. That was actually a beautiful idea. Tokyo should be more rational than Beijing. One enemy at a time is preferable to lashing out at five different nations at once. But it's a rare event when logic intrudes on diplomacy.
这是个安倍与普京和解的不错的机会。在福岛事件后，梅德韦杰夫甚至建议日本人在俄罗斯的土地上定居。那实际上是个不错的主意。东京比北京应该更理性。一次抨击一个国家好过同时向五个不同的国家发难。但是逻辑上说，外交介入后，这是个小概率事件。
Kanes January 24, 2013 at 1:00 pm
Now we are talking!
Looking at the Japan-China island dispute in isolation is wrong. It must be looked at in its whole. It is a Russia-Japan-China-USA issue. I'm amazed by the language used by the Japanese with the Russians as opposed to dealing with the Chinese. It suggests might is right. Taking back those islands from Russia is nearly impossible as Russia tries to project its military power to the north Pacific along with China. They held joint military exercises in 2010 and 2012 (Vostok?). Medvedev visited these islands when he was the president last year. Looks like Russia's most favored party will get to keep the islands.
Looked that way, stagnation is the best available and the most peaceful option.
现在我们正在讨论！
单独看待中日岛屿纷争是不对的。必须要全面看待这个问题。这是个涉及到俄日中美的问题。我惊讶于日本在与俄罗斯打交道时所使用的言辞与其在与中国打交道时使用的截然相反。这表明可能是正确的。想从俄罗斯手上拿回这些岛屿几乎是不可能的，因为俄罗斯试图与中国一道向北太平洋投放其军事力量。他们在2010年和2012年举行了联合军事演习（东方几号？）。梅德韦杰夫在去年的总统任期内，访问了这些岛屿。看起来俄罗斯最受青睐的政党将继续保留这些岛屿。
从这个角度看上去，停止（向俄罗斯索要岛屿）是最稳定和最和平的选择。
。
Samurai X January 24, 2013 at 4:33 pm
With finding of 200 years worth natural gas on the US soils, Russia is under pressure right now. If US would sell shale gas to other countries, Japan will be the first customer. Russia needs to find a partner quickly before Russian gas price and stocks will go down since they invested so much with pipelines in Siberia. Again, Japan is a perfect choice.
Anti-Russian sentiment in Japan barely exist. Yes, Russia stole these northern islands from Japan by occupying them after Japan signed the Potsdam Declaration and we want them back, but if Russia is willing to work with Japan, the future of Japan-Russo relationship and Siberia will be fertile. If US are cutting budgets and withdraw from the Western Pacific, Japan will need a good ally like Russia.
随着在美国发现可供使用200年的天然气后，俄罗斯骤然感到压力。如果美国向其他国家售卖这些页岩气，日本将会是第一个客户。俄罗斯需要在其气价以及股票下跌前，马上找到一个合伙人，因为他们在西伯利亚的管道上进行了大量的投资。再一次，日本是个完美的选择。
反俄罗斯情绪在日本很少见。是的，在日本签署波茨坦公告后，俄罗斯通过占领，从日本手里窃取了这些北部岛屿，并且我们想要要回这些岛，但是如果俄罗斯愿意跟日本合作，未来的日俄关系及西伯利亚将欣欣向荣。如果美国削减预算并从西太平洋撤退，日本将需要一个像俄罗斯一样的好盟友。
James the Australian January 24, 2013 at 7:05 pm
This is indeed comical….no, it smacks of cynics and ignorance.
There is no chance of them getting an inch of these islands back, nyet,nyet,nyet…why should or would the Russian return them? After all Japan is refusing to return Dioyutai back to China and these Kuriles islands are much bigger and valuable.
So, go figure out, Japan, your contradictory behaviour.
这确实很滑稽。。。不，这有点像玩世不恭和无知。
他们没有丝毫机会拿回一英寸这些岛屿，不不不（此处为俄语）。。为什么俄罗斯要或应该归还这些岛屿？毕竟，日本拒绝将钓鱼岛归还给中国，并且这些岛屿更大更有价值。
因此，日本，搞搞清楚你矛盾的行为。
Raphael January 24, 2013 at 9:30 pm
Obviously this is a issue that should not be taken lightheaded, let alone considering one of the sides.If we go to support the japanese side one could easily use the reunion of the shattered territories of today's Germany to imply that more territory doesn't mean an increase of cultural supermacy and greed and if one supports the russian the fear might come from being a conflict with probably The most technologically developed country trying to make up his short territory for a thirsty for resources. Personally the biggest variable here is China, since it's acceptance to the international markets it has grown by factors comparable to the Japanese Miracle and many of the western industries find cheap labor force there and let's not also forget that China has a dual polticial ideology – democratic in government, communist in economy – though it might be debatable if such continues to be so after the fall of Mao Tse Tsung and it's proximity with North Korea should not be ignored too.
The West must sought to envision carefully the steaks here as a geo-political future but i suspect the United States will take a few to decide since both countries are former enemies (under different circumstances) though the support could probably go to Japan as a reason to stop the ancient fear of 'communist contamination'.
明显，这是个不能轻浮对待的问题，更别提考虑其中一方。如果我们支持日本，人们能轻易利用今天德国支离破碎的领土的重新统一来暗示，越多的领土并不意味着文化的繁荣；如果人们支持俄罗斯，就会可能存在技术最先进的发达国家由于对资源的渴望而试图占有其短期领土，从而爆发冲突带来的恐惧感。个人认为，最大的变数就是中国，自从它被国际市场所接纳，它已经通过那些可与日本奇迹相比拟的因素成长起来，并且很多西方工业企业在那儿找到便宜劳力，我们也不要忘记，中国有着双重政治形态——民主政府、共产经济——虽然这可能有争议，在毛泽东不再掌权后，继续那样的话。并且，它与北朝鲜的亲近也不容忽视。
西方必须将这儿的利益分布作为将来的地缘政治好好思考下，但是我怀疑美国将花心思去决定，因为两个国家都是前敌人（不同的情况下），尽管可能支持日本，作为阻止对于“共产主义污染”的过时的恐惧的原因。
Nirvana January 27, 2013 at 1:08 am
@John Chan
You are mixing everything.
You are mixing the China (ROC) that fought along side the US in WW2 and the other China (Mao’s) hiding in caves to spare its force while their “class enemy” compatriots paid a heavy tribute against Imperial Army (check how Mao expressed his gratefulness to Japan for that). The former China (ROC) was the one fighting along side the US in South Vietnam, while the other China (Mao’s) was arming the other side.
You failed to see the difference between the alliance of convenience during war between states of different ideologies, and bitter wars between “comrades” of the same ideologies.
Perhaps you ignore that the majority of Americans do not agree with EVERYTHING their government did. Some of them also agree with you that their country has a penchant for hegemony and imperialism. But they live in a system that allows them to speak openly and act quite efficiently against such wrong doings, whether in Philippines, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Iraq,…. And whether they agree or disagree between themselves, they believe in their system.
If you ask Filipinos or Vietnamese with some education whether they trust the US government, the answer is likely no. But they also say that they have high respect for the US, for the blood sacrifice it took to save them from the worse catastrophe in WW2 (did “your China” ever say so?), and for what it did in sharing knowledge and science, and for what it did for not punishing by impoverishing its defeated enemies, and for what many Americans did by showing to the world that there is always hope for a better world when there is freedom of speech.
回复John Chan
你在混淆一切。你把二战中与美国同战线的中国（中华民国）和当自己的“阶级敌人”竭尽全力地对抗帝国主义军队时，却躲在山洞里积聚力量（核实下毛为了这点向日本表达感激之情的事吧）的那一个中国（毛领导的）相混淆。前一个中国（中华民国）在越南南部与美国并肩作战，而另一个中国（毛领导的）则在帮助另一边（北越）。
你没能看到意识形态不同的国家之间的战争与相同意识形态的“伙伴”之间更痛苦的战争，这两种战争之间临时性权宜协定的区别。
也许你无视大多数美国人并不同意他们政府所做的一切。他们中的一些人还同意你的观点，那就是他们的国家喜欢实行霸权主义和帝国主义。但是他们生活的这个国家的体制允许他们公开发表声明或有效的行动以反对这些错误的做法，无论是在菲律宾、越南、柬埔寨、老挝、伊拉克。。。。并且无论他们之间同意或不同意，他们相信他们的体制。
如果你问一些受过教育的菲律宾人或者越南人，他们是否信任美国政府，答案很可能是否定的。但是他们同样会说，他们非常尊敬美国，因为它为将他们从二战这个最惨烈的苦难中，所承载的鲜血及牺牲（“你的中国”曾这么说过么？），因为它在分享知识及科技这一方面的所作所为，因为它不会再去惩罚被它打败而陷入贫穷的敌人，因为许多美国人所做出的努力，以展示给世界看，只要有言论自由，世界变得更好的希望总是存在的。
。
Valbonne January 29, 2013 at 6:20 pm
@ Peter Lewis
What you have written is absolutely correct and has hit the nail of the whole issue. Great.
回复Peter Lewis
你写的这些绝度正确，并对整个问题的给出一针见血的分析。太棒了。
Tamagawa_D9 January 27, 2013 at 12:55 pm
Does China care about the opinion of the 1,384,762 Japanese citizens who actually inhabit Okinawa, or is their right to self-determination as nonexistent as that of Taiwan, Tibetan or Uighur populations?
中国关心实际居住在冲绳的1,384,762名日本民众的想法么，或者他们自己做决定的权力是不是跟台湾人、XZ人或者维吾尔人的一样是不存在的呢？
Leonard R. January 24, 2013 at 9:37 am
This is a logical opportunity for Abe to settle with Putin. After Fukushima, Medvedev even suggested Japanese settle on Russian soil. That was actually a beautiful idea. Tokyo should be more rational than Beijing. One enemy at a time is preferable to lashing out at five different nations at once. But it's a rare event when logic intrudes on diplomacy.
这是个安倍与普京和解的不错的机会。在福岛事件后，梅德韦杰夫甚至建议日本人在俄罗斯的土地上定居。那实际上是个不错的主意。东京比北京应该更理性。一次抨击一个国家好过同时向五个不同的国家发难。但是逻辑上说，外交介入后，这是个小概率事件。
Kanes January 24, 2013 at 1:00 pm
Now we are talking!
Looking at the Japan-China island dispute in isolation is wrong. It must be looked at in its whole. It is a Russia-Japan-China-USA issue. I'm amazed by the language used by the Japanese with the Russians as opposed to dealing with the Chinese. It suggests might is right. Taking back those islands from Russia is nearly impossible as Russia tries to project its military power to the north Pacific along with China. They held joint military exercises in 2010 and 2012 (Vostok?). Medvedev visited these islands when he was the president last year. Looks like Russia's most favored party will get to keep the islands.
Looked that way, stagnation is the best available and the most peaceful option.
现在我们正在讨论！
单独看待中日岛屿纷争是不对的。必须要全面看待这个问题。这是个涉及到俄日中美的问题。我惊讶于日本在与俄罗斯打交道时所使用的言辞与其在与中国打交道时使用的截然相反。这表明可能是正确的。想从俄罗斯手上拿回这些岛屿几乎是不可能的，因为俄罗斯试图与中国一道向北太平洋投放其军事力量。他们在2010年和2012年举行了联合军事演习（东方几号？）。梅德韦杰夫在去年的总统任期内，访问了这些岛屿。看起来俄罗斯最受青睐的政党将继续保留这些岛屿。
从这个角度看上去，停止（向俄罗斯索要岛屿）是最稳定和最和平的选择。
。
Samurai X January 24, 2013 at 4:33 pm
With finding of 200 years worth natural gas on the US soils, Russia is under pressure right now. If US would sell shale gas to other countries, Japan will be the first customer. Russia needs to find a partner quickly before Russian gas price and stocks will go down since they invested so much with pipelines in Siberia. Again, Japan is a perfect choice.
Anti-Russian sentiment in Japan barely exist. Yes, Russia stole these northern islands from Japan by occupying them after Japan signed the Potsdam Declaration and we want them back, but if Russia is willing to work with Japan, the future of Japan-Russo relationship and Siberia will be fertile. If US are cutting budgets and withdraw from the Western Pacific, Japan will need a good ally like Russia.
随着在美国发现可供使用200年的天然气后，俄罗斯骤然感到压力。如果美国向其他国家售卖这些页岩气，日本将会是第一个客户。俄罗斯需要在其气价以及股票下跌前，马上找到一个合伙人，因为他们在西伯利亚的管道上进行了大量的投资。再一次，日本是个完美的选择。
反俄罗斯情绪在日本很少见。是的，在日本签署波茨坦公告后，俄罗斯通过占领，从日本手里窃取了这些北部岛屿，并且我们想要要回这些岛，但是如果俄罗斯愿意跟日本合作，未来的日俄关系及西伯利亚将欣欣向荣。如果美国削减预算并从西太平洋撤退，日本将需要一个像俄罗斯一样的好盟友。
James the Australian January 24, 2013 at 7:05 pm
This is indeed comical….no, it smacks of cynics and ignorance.
There is no chance of them getting an inch of these islands back, nyet,nyet,nyet…why should or would the Russian return them? After all Japan is refusing to return Dioyutai back to China and these Kuriles islands are much bigger and valuable.
So, go figure out, Japan, your contradictory behaviour.
这确实很滑稽。。。不，这有点像玩世不恭和无知。
他们没有丝毫机会拿回一英寸这些岛屿，不不不（此处为俄语）。。为什么俄罗斯要或应该归还这些岛屿？毕竟，日本拒绝将钓鱼岛归还给中国，并且这些岛屿更大更有价值。
因此，日本，搞搞清楚你矛盾的行为。
Raphael January 24, 2013 at 9:30 pm
Obviously this is a issue that should not be taken lightheaded, let alone considering one of the sides.If we go to support the japanese side one could easily use the reunion of the shattered territories of today's Germany to imply that more territory doesn't mean an increase of cultural supermacy and greed and if one supports the russian the fear might come from being a conflict with probably The most technologically developed country trying to make up his short territory for a thirsty for resources. Personally the biggest variable here is China, since it's acceptance to the international markets it has grown by factors comparable to the Japanese Miracle and many of the western industries find cheap labor force there and let's not also forget that China has a dual polticial ideology – democratic in government, communist in economy – though it might be debatable if such continues to be so after the fall of Mao Tse Tsung and it's proximity with North Korea should not be ignored too.
The West must sought to envision carefully the steaks here as a geo-political future but i suspect the United States will take a few to decide since both countries are former enemies (under different circumstances) though the support could probably go to Japan as a reason to stop the ancient fear of 'communist contamination'.
明显，这是个不能轻浮对待的问题，更别提考虑其中一方。如果我们支持日本，人们能轻易利用今天德国支离破碎的领土的重新统一来暗示，越多的领土并不意味着文化的繁荣；如果人们支持俄罗斯，就会可能存在技术最先进的发达国家由于对资源的渴望而试图占有其短期领土，从而爆发冲突带来的恐惧感。个人认为，最大的变数就是中国，自从它被国际市场所接纳，它已经通过那些可与日本奇迹相比拟的因素成长起来，并且很多西方工业企业在那儿找到便宜劳力，我们也不要忘记，中国有着双重政治形态——民主政府、共产经济——虽然这可能有争议，在毛泽东不再掌权后，继续那样的话。并且，它与北朝鲜的亲近也不容忽视。
西方必须将这儿的利益分布作为将来的地缘政治好好思考下，但是我怀疑美国将花心思去决定，因为两个国家都是前敌人（不同的情况下），尽管可能支持日本，作为阻止对于“共产主义污染”的过时的恐惧的原因。
。
Anon January 24, 2013 at 10:10 pm
I have seldom come across as resolutely anti-China website as this. Every possible angle of demonizing China, including "framing" China as the common enemy of both Japan and Russia as in this article, has been milked and explored. Far from antagonism, China and Russia have settled border disputes amicably and share a key survival objective in pursuing a Multi-polar world instead of the current dictatorial, undemocratic Unipolar world. The SCO is recognition of the need for Eurasia to break decisively away from Hegemony.
Any sane person who wishes to avert future world wars will simply recognize the inevitable, especially when the Unipolar Elite have robbed the world blind, through their bankers who sold toxic junk as "financial investments". As various nations start to recognize the futility of expecting an ABSOLUTE POWER that is completely corrupted to right itself, they will be preparing for the "storming of the Bastille", so to speak.
The tragedy is that despite the horrendous costs inflicted by the Unipolar Empire on so many nations, whether directly through puppet governments, sanctions, wars and invasions, there are still so many sycophants in service of a undemocratic ORDER.
我很少遇到像这个网站这样，坚决反华的网站。寻找每一个可能的角度妖魔化中国，包括在这篇文章中，将中国“设定”为日本与俄罗斯的共同敌人。与对抗相反的是，中国和俄罗斯已经友好的解决了彼此之间的边界纷争，并且两国都有着用一个多极世界代替目前这个独裁的、不民主的单极世界的目标。欧亚大陆意识到果断脱离霸权主义的需要，上合组织就是应这个需要而产生的。
任何想要避免未来世界大战的理智的人都能清楚的认识到这种必然性，特别当单极精英通过他们的把有毒垃圾当“金融投资”销售的银行家，盲目抢劫这个世界的时候。当各个国家开始意识到，期待一个完全破化其本身的绝对权力是徒劳无功的时候，他们就准备，可以这么说，“攻占巴士底狱”。
悲剧的就是，尽管单极帝国在许多国家造成了如此巨大的花费，无论是不是直接通过傀儡政权、制裁、战争和入侵造成的，还是有那么多马屁精吹捧这一不民主的秩序。
Stefan Stackhouse January 25, 2013 at 1:26 am
Russia is probably on the firmer legal ground. But good grief, look at the size of those islands compared to the rest of Russia's territory! And look at the proximity of these islands to Japan. These islands are obviously a geographic part of the Japanese archipelago, it really isn't an outrageous claim to suggest that these logically should have more connection with Japan than Russia. The question is: what might Japan be able to offer that would be of sufficient value to Russia to enable them to swallow their national pride and think they are getting a good deal?
俄罗斯可能有更坚定的法律基础。但是，天哪，看看这些岛屿面积与俄罗斯其他领土面积的比较！并且看到这些岛屿离日本如此之近，这些岛屿明显是属于日本群岛的一部分；从逻辑上认为这些岛屿与日本的联系比与俄罗斯的的联系更紧密，绝不是什么令人吃惊的宣告。问题是：日本能够提供什么具有足够价值的东西给俄罗斯，使得俄罗斯能吞下他们的民族自豪感并认为他们做了笔好买卖？
？
Anon January 25, 2013 at 3:50 am
Just want to point out once and for all that China is Russia's IDEAL military ally. With China at Russia's side, the Pacific, Russia's Southern flank all the way to Central Asia are covered, leaving RussiaFREE to focus on the Middle East and Europe.
The Eurasian-Continental war is impossible for the millions of PLA and Russian soldiers to lose – both are unbeatable land mobilization powers. And while Russia's Naval prowess is only second to the US, with the PLAN, not to mention China's ASAT and ICBMs, Russia is in a good position to take on the US Navy.
The US and Japan have overplayed their hands this time, and even if sanity prevails after all, it will take a long time before they will be trusted by the Chinese again, and Russia will emerge to benefit most from this stupid and dangerous gambit.
我只想最后一次说明，中国是俄罗斯理想的军事盟友。由于中国位于俄罗斯的一侧、太平洋以及俄罗斯的南翼一路被中亚国家包围，使得俄罗斯能自如地关注着中东和欧洲。
欧亚大陆之战不可能是数以百万计的解放军士兵和俄罗斯士兵输了——两国都有无敌的陆地动员力量。并且俄罗斯的海军力量仅次于美国，再加上解放军海军，更不用说中国的反卫星能力及洲际弹道导弹，俄罗斯在与美国海军对阵中，有着优势。
这次美国及日本过了火，即使再变得理智，他们也需要很长一段时间才能再次得到中国的信任，俄罗斯在这一愚蠢及危险的策略下，成为最大的获益者。
Jean-Paul January 25, 2013 at 4:37 am
@ Anon, any CCP posters
Be careful what you wish for my commie friend, Russia is no where even close what it used to be. The fact that you would want a Mafia run thug state to be your ally speaks volumes about what kind of ethics you have. When your forced to side with a country known for suppression of freedom of speech and rigging elections you know your country is totally morally bankrupt.
Russia's military tech is FAR behind anything the west currently has, they haven't even updated their navy, airfare or army since the end of the cold war, where the great western nations were victorious over commie thugs. You say USA has overplayed its hand? Well that's where your VERY wrong once again. Japanese president Shinzo Abe has already invited both France and the UK with open arms to pivot back to Asia once again and with the combined forces of japan, france, usa and uk you will see that the 1980s cold war navies of Russia and the PRC are totally obsolete against the 21st century fleets of the west and japan.
Better watch out Anon and John Chan, the west has 3/4 of the worlds blue water navies, with both South Korea and India also developing blue water navies, they are natural allies against Chinese aggression as well. Look here to see how poorly matched Russia and China are against the great west: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue-water_navy
France is currently in the process of developing one of the world's most advanced nuclear submarines in the world. Military analysts even suggest that France's barracuda class submarines will give the USA's Virginia class submarine a run for its money, do you really think cold war junk can compete?
回复 Anon，任何共产主义发言者
者
注意你对我的GCD朋友的期望，俄罗斯没有达到，甚至没有接近它过去的样子。事实上，你想要一个黑手党管理的暴徒国家做你的盟友，说明了你有着什么样子的道德规范。当你被迫与一个以压制言论自由以及操纵选举而出名的国家站一边时，你知道你的国家已经道德沦丧。
俄罗斯的军事技术远远落后于目前西方所拥有的一切，自从二战结束，他们甚至没有升级他们的海军、飞机和军队，冷战中，伟大的西方国家战争了共产主义暴徒。你说美国玩过后了？好吧，这又是你再一次错的离谱的地方。日本首相安倍晋三已经邀请英国和法国展开双臂，再一次回归亚洲，随着日本、法国、美国及英国联合军力，你将看到上世纪八十年代冷战时期水平的俄罗斯和中国解放军，在对战21世纪的西方与日本的联合舰队时，完全已经过了时。
最好看仔细了，Anon和John Chan，西方拥有世界上四分之三的远洋海军部队，韩国及印度都在发展远洋海军部队，他们也是反击中国侵略的天然盟友。看看这儿，了解下对比伟大的西方，俄罗斯和中国有多寒酸：http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue-water_navy
法国是目前世界发展过程中，拥有最先进的核潜艇的国家之一。军事分析家甚至暗示法国的梭鱼级核潜艇将给美国的佛吉尼亚级核潜艇运营资金，你真的认为那些冷战垃圾能参与竞争么？
Anon January 24, 2013 at 10:10 pm
I have seldom come across as resolutely anti-China website as this. Every possible angle of demonizing China, including "framing" China as the common enemy of both Japan and Russia as in this article, has been milked and explored. Far from antagonism, China and Russia have settled border disputes amicably and share a key survival objective in pursuing a Multi-polar world instead of the current dictatorial, undemocratic Unipolar world. The SCO is recognition of the need for Eurasia to break decisively away from Hegemony.
Any sane person who wishes to avert future world wars will simply recognize the inevitable, especially when the Unipolar Elite have robbed the world blind, through their bankers who sold toxic junk as "financial investments". As various nations start to recognize the futility of expecting an ABSOLUTE POWER that is completely corrupted to right itself, they will be preparing for the "storming of the Bastille", so to speak.
The tragedy is that despite the horrendous costs inflicted by the Unipolar Empire on so many nations, whether directly through puppet governments, sanctions, wars and invasions, there are still so many sycophants in service of a undemocratic ORDER.
我很少遇到像这个网站这样，坚决反华的网站。寻找每一个可能的角度妖魔化中国，包括在这篇文章中，将中国“设定”为日本与俄罗斯的共同敌人。与对抗相反的是，中国和俄罗斯已经友好的解决了彼此之间的边界纷争，并且两国都有着用一个多极世界代替目前这个独裁的、不民主的单极世界的目标。欧亚大陆意识到果断脱离霸权主义的需要，上合组织就是应这个需要而产生的。
任何想要避免未来世界大战的理智的人都能清楚的认识到这种必然性，特别当单极精英通过他们的把有毒垃圾当“金融投资”销售的银行家，盲目抢劫这个世界的时候。当各个国家开始意识到，期待一个完全破化其本身的绝对权力是徒劳无功的时候，他们就准备，可以这么说，“攻占巴士底狱”。
悲剧的就是，尽管单极帝国在许多国家造成了如此巨大的花费，无论是不是直接通过傀儡政权、制裁、战争和入侵造成的，还是有那么多马屁精吹捧这一不民主的秩序。
Stefan Stackhouse January 25, 2013 at 1:26 am
Russia is probably on the firmer legal ground. But good grief, look at the size of those islands compared to the rest of Russia's territory! And look at the proximity of these islands to Japan. These islands are obviously a geographic part of the Japanese archipelago, it really isn't an outrageous claim to suggest that these logically should have more connection with Japan than Russia. The question is: what might Japan be able to offer that would be of sufficient value to Russia to enable them to swallow their national pride and think they are getting a good deal?
俄罗斯可能有更坚定的法律基础。但是，天哪，看看这些岛屿面积与俄罗斯其他领土面积的比较！并且看到这些岛屿离日本如此之近，这些岛屿明显是属于日本群岛的一部分；从逻辑上认为这些岛屿与日本的联系比与俄罗斯的的联系更紧密，绝不是什么令人吃惊的宣告。问题是：日本能够提供什么具有足够价值的东西给俄罗斯，使得俄罗斯能吞下他们的民族自豪感并认为他们做了笔好买卖？
？
Anon January 25, 2013 at 3:50 am
Just want to point out once and for all that China is Russia's IDEAL military ally. With China at Russia's side, the Pacific, Russia's Southern flank all the way to Central Asia are covered, leaving RussiaFREE to focus on the Middle East and Europe.
The Eurasian-Continental war is impossible for the millions of PLA and Russian soldiers to lose – both are unbeatable land mobilization powers. And while Russia's Naval prowess is only second to the US, with the PLAN, not to mention China's ASAT and ICBMs, Russia is in a good position to take on the US Navy.
The US and Japan have overplayed their hands this time, and even if sanity prevails after all, it will take a long time before they will be trusted by the Chinese again, and Russia will emerge to benefit most from this stupid and dangerous gambit.
我只想最后一次说明，中国是俄罗斯理想的军事盟友。由于中国位于俄罗斯的一侧、太平洋以及俄罗斯的南翼一路被中亚国家包围，使得俄罗斯能自如地关注着中东和欧洲。
欧亚大陆之战不可能是数以百万计的解放军士兵和俄罗斯士兵输了——两国都有无敌的陆地动员力量。并且俄罗斯的海军力量仅次于美国，再加上解放军海军，更不用说中国的反卫星能力及洲际弹道导弹，俄罗斯在与美国海军对阵中，有着优势。
这次美国及日本过了火，即使再变得理智，他们也需要很长一段时间才能再次得到中国的信任，俄罗斯在这一愚蠢及危险的策略下，成为最大的获益者。
Jean-Paul January 25, 2013 at 4:37 am
@ Anon, any CCP posters
Be careful what you wish for my commie friend, Russia is no where even close what it used to be. The fact that you would want a Mafia run thug state to be your ally speaks volumes about what kind of ethics you have. When your forced to side with a country known for suppression of freedom of speech and rigging elections you know your country is totally morally bankrupt.
Russia's military tech is FAR behind anything the west currently has, they haven't even updated their navy, airfare or army since the end of the cold war, where the great western nations were victorious over commie thugs. You say USA has overplayed its hand? Well that's where your VERY wrong once again. Japanese president Shinzo Abe has already invited both France and the UK with open arms to pivot back to Asia once again and with the combined forces of japan, france, usa and uk you will see that the 1980s cold war navies of Russia and the PRC are totally obsolete against the 21st century fleets of the west and japan.
Better watch out Anon and John Chan, the west has 3/4 of the worlds blue water navies, with both South Korea and India also developing blue water navies, they are natural allies against Chinese aggression as well. Look here to see how poorly matched Russia and China are against the great west: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue-water_navy
France is currently in the process of developing one of the world's most advanced nuclear submarines in the world. Military analysts even suggest that France's barracuda class submarines will give the USA's Virginia class submarine a run for its money, do you really think cold war junk can compete?
回复 Anon，任何共产主义发言者
者
注意你对我的GCD朋友的期望，俄罗斯没有达到，甚至没有接近它过去的样子。事实上，你想要一个黑手党管理的暴徒国家做你的盟友，说明了你有着什么样子的道德规范。当你被迫与一个以压制言论自由以及操纵选举而出名的国家站一边时，你知道你的国家已经道德沦丧。
俄罗斯的军事技术远远落后于目前西方所拥有的一切，自从二战结束，他们甚至没有升级他们的海军、飞机和军队，冷战中，伟大的西方国家战争了共产主义暴徒。你说美国玩过后了？好吧，这又是你再一次错的离谱的地方。日本首相安倍晋三已经邀请英国和法国展开双臂，再一次回归亚洲，随着日本、法国、美国及英国联合军力，你将看到上世纪八十年代冷战时期水平的俄罗斯和中国解放军，在对战21世纪的西方与日本的联合舰队时，完全已经过了时。
最好看仔细了，Anon和John Chan，西方拥有世界上四分之三的远洋海军部队，韩国及印度都在发展远洋海军部队，他们也是反击中国侵略的天然盟友。看看这儿，了解下对比伟大的西方，俄罗斯和中国有多寒酸：http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue-water_navy
法国是目前世界发展过程中，拥有最先进的核潜艇的国家之一。军事分析家甚至暗示法国的梭鱼级核潜艇将给美国的佛吉尼亚级核潜艇运营资金，你真的认为那些冷战垃圾能参与竞争么？
应该知道，美国是那个有关与前“盟友们、同志们、友邻们或者战略伙伴”之间发生痛苦的战争的名单上的头一名。
二战期间，中国可是美国的伙伴，然而在朝鲜战争中变成了不同戴天的仇敌，然后又在冷战期间变成了战略伙伴，然后在亚洲轴心的惨烈的战争中，被断定为“中国威胁”。
俄罗斯曾是美国对抗邪恶轴心国时的伙伴，然后在冷战中变成了一个邪恶的帝国，然后在苏维埃社会主义共和国联盟崩溃后，变成了一个友好伙伴，然后当美国想进一步打击俄罗斯时，俄罗斯变成了被反弹道导弹包围的战略竞争对手。
在二战之前，日本是美国赚钱的友邻国家，然后在二战那场导致美国数百万伤亡的漫长而又惨烈的战争变成了邪恶的法西斯侵略者，然后在美国推进其在亚洲的帝国主义霸权时，日本又成为战略伙伴。
越南、阿富汗、伊拉克、利比亚、巴拿马、法国、意大利、德国、菲律宾。。。这些由美国从朋友变成敌人，又变回朋友的国家，几乎都要遍布联合国所有的成员国了。
Nirvans，你确定你不是个小屁孩？如果你是个小屁孩，这里有条你永远不该忘记的建议，“美国人没有盟友，只有工具；一旦工具用够了，卖掉这个工具是美国人的生活方式。”菲律宾人逃脱不了做美国工具的命运，即使他们跟着美国背后，热情地亲吻美国人。
泥马！太经典了！
？
John Chan January 25, 2013 at 7:20 am
@Jean-Paul,
France is known as Sahara/Sahel warlord, and an AFRICOM lackey, its huff and puff rely on the transportation and supplies provided by the British, Canadian and the American. The maximum number of troops the French can put into Mali is 2500 men, it is simply too puny to last one skirmish in Asia.
French even cannot pivot back across the water of Mediterranean without asking others to ship the troops for them, it is just silly for you to talk about French getting out of the pool of water between Europe and Africa. Mind you the water outside of Mediterranean is rough, French will get seasick and their ships will become easy prey for the Somalia pirates.
回复Jean-Paul
法国被称为撒哈拉/萨赫勒地区军阀，以及非洲司令部的随从，它的咆哮依赖于英国、加拿大籍美国提供的运输及补给。法国能投放进马里的最大数量的军队是2500人，在应付亚洲的一个小冲突时，这真是太微不足道了。
不请求别的国家帮他们运输军队，法国甚至无法直接穿越地中海。至于你说到的法国走出欧洲和非洲这个小池子，简直是愚蠢至极。友情提示，地中海以外的水域很凶险哦，法国会晕船哦，他们的船很容易会变成索马里海盗的目标哦。
Jean-Paul January 25, 2013 at 11:17 am
@ John Chan
Do I have to keep educating you on basic economics and how nations save money? Why would the French military conduct a military operation on their own when they can save money and receive support from other nations? Your comment makes no sense at all, even China does joint military exercises with Russia, are you trying to say that China cannot do anything without the Russians help?
Of course the French military force in Mali is small, it does not need to bring in a large force when a smaller, more high-tech force can be brought in instead. Once again you are showing your ignorance, in terms of costs, having a smaller, easier to manage force is much more efficient than a massive force which is expensive and unnecessary.
Besides, quality is always superior to quantity and that high tech French force of 2500 could easily outmatch a Chinese force 4-5 times that size. France has much more combat experience than the Chinese army anyway and their fight in Mali will only make them more experienced and more deadly in the long run.
Finally, if France cannot pivot out of the Mediterranean ocean, then how is it possible for France to have a military base in the UAE? Look here to see that France has a global military force, we even have a naval base in French polynesia which is on the other side of the world. Here is the article on France's UAE base: http://www.economist.com/node/10534515
回复John Chan
难道我还需要在基础经济学和国家如何省钱这方面对你进行教育？当他们能省钱并得到其他国家的支助的时候，法国军队为什么要独立进行战斗？你的评论完全没有任何意义，甚至连中国都与俄罗斯进行联合军事演习，你是想说中国没有俄罗斯的帮助的话，啥都干不了么？
法国在马里的军队规模当然小，当带来规模更小、科技含量更高的军事力量时，它不需要带来大规模的军事力量。你再一次显示了你的无知，在成本方面，规模更小、更易管理的军事力量比又昂贵又不必要的大规模军队，效率更高。
此外，质量总是优先于数量，2500人的高科技法国军队能轻易胜过人数是其四五倍的中国军队。无论如何，法国军队比中国军队更有实战经验，且从长远来看，他们在马里进行的战斗将会让他们积累更多经验和更加致命。
最终，如果法国不能走出地中海，那么他们怎么可能在阿联酋有军事基地？看这儿，看看法国的全球军事力量，我们甚至在世界那一端的法属玻里尼西亚有海军基地。这是一篇有关法国在阿联酋的基地的文章：http://www.economist.com/node/10534515
ohn Chan January 26, 2013 at 6:09 am
@Jean-Paul,
You are rather clumsy at explaining away French incompetence; you should say disbanding all French military can save even more money, no wonder France collaborated with Nazi because they wanted to save money.
The commander of AFRICOMsaid 2,500 men had reached the limit of the French military, it seems even the American is not showing much respect to the French. Looking the photos of the French army in Mali is poorly equipped; Al-Qaeda’s roadside bombs will turn those trucks into twisted metal cans easier than Humvees.
Please save us your fabrication, from WWII, Dien Bien Phu to Algeria, French military’s performance is something much to be desired.
Please do not confuse vacation resort with military presence; French Polynesia is a vacation resort for the French military personnel at the expenses of the French public.
回复Jean-Paul
你在掩饰法国的无能方面十分笨拙；你应该说遣散所有的法国军队能省更多钱，难怪法国与纳粹合作，原来他们想省钱。
非洲司令部的指挥官说，2500人已经达到了法国军队的上限，这给人的感觉是，似乎美国人也不太尊重法国人。看看这些在马里的法国军队的破烂装备；比起悍马来，基地组织的路边炸弹更容易把这些卡车炸成扭曲的金属罐。
捏造事实的事，你就省省吧你，从二战的奠边府战役到阿尔及利亚，法国军队的表现一贯不理想。
请不要将度假胜地和军事存在混为一谈；法属玻里尼西亚是由法国人民出资的，提供给法国军队人员的一处度假胜地。
Nirvana January 27, 2013 at 9:31 pm
John Chan has a good point. The last conventional war fought in Asia was the border war between China and Vietnam in 1979. China deployed 400,000 men, 400 tanks in the campaign and reached about 40 km beyond the border after 30 days. Objective: teaching a lesson. Outcome: 60 thousands dead, roughly split between the two sides. John Chan is referring to the PLA's norm in war. Don't pick a fight with the PLA because they have infinite human life "assets".
Jean Paul overlooked one point. France conducted this war under the legal cover of the UN. Therefore, nobody strongly disapproved France's action, including those holding a veto right in the UNSC. Let's see whether China, the world second economy, is going to shoulder some responsibility of peace keeping here. Clearly losing 2500 men is "peanut" to the PLA's norm (3 days of the border war in 1979). France would have a precious military ally in such a terrain and ethnic-prone situation. Go PLA, go teach the terrorists a lesson! It seems that they use the weapons you supplied to Colonel Khaddafi, through South Africa, in the last month of his regime.
John Chan点出了个好地方。亚洲最近的一次常规战争，就是1979年中越之间的边境战争。中国在此次战斗中，部署了40万部队、400辆坦克，30天后，深入越南境内40公里。目标：给越南一个教训。结果：战死六万人，双方大致各占一半。John Chan指的是战争中解放军的规模。不要跟解放军战斗，因为他们有无限的生命“资产”。
Jean Paul忽视了一点。法国在联合国的合法掩护下，进行了这场战斗。因此，没有人坚决反对法国的行动，包括那些在安理会有投票权的国家。让我们看看，是否中国，世界第二大经济体，打算承担一部分在这儿维和的责任。显然，对于解放军的规模而言，损失2500人不过是九牛一毫（1979年边境战争三天就牺牲这么多）。法国将获得一个有着那种地形和种族倾向情况的宝贵的盟友。前进，解放军，去给这些恐怖分子一个教训！似乎这些恐怖分子用的是你们通过南非在卡大佐政权的最后一个月里，提供给他的武器。
John Chan January 28, 2013 at 9:31 am
@nrvana,
It is widely spread on the internet that French is the AFRICOM’s vanguard in the destruction ofSahara/Sahel, and Mali will be French’s Afghanistan; why should anybody spoil the show the French insists to be the lead actor?
回复nrvana
在对撒哈拉沙漠/萨赫勒地区的破坏中，法国是非洲司令部的马前卒这话说法在互联网上广为流传，并且马里将成为法国的阿富汗；为什么大家都对这场法国坚称自己是男主角的演出喝倒彩？
Nirvana January 30, 2013 at 2:54 am
Interesting to learn from John Chan that the PRC's foreign policy is based first on what is "spread on the Internet"! Secondly it is interesting to note that China did not oppose this military intervention in the UN. However, the 2nd economy would prefer not to shoulder its responsibility in Africa, where it is very present. Free-riders!
!
从John Chan处得知中国的外交政策首先是建立在“互联网上广为流传”这个基础上的，这真有趣！其次，很有趣的注意到，中国不反对联合国的这一次军事干预。然而，这个世界第二大经济体不愿意承担自己在非洲的责任，在非洲，中国是很有存在的。中国真是个搭便车的家伙！！
Kanes January 25, 2013 at 11:28 am
Absolutely!
Russian nukes are the best and they are rapidly expanding them now. China should focus more on conventional weapons, air force, navy and land troops. Russia and China are perfect complements in defense. However, SCO is only a sham. If serious, they could have saved Iran which can be used to control Pakistan, Iraq, Saudi, Afghanistan and the world's largest oil route.
Russia has to reassess India which is no longer in the Russian camp.
绝对的！
俄罗斯的核武器是最好的且他们现在正在快速扩大。中国应该更加集中注意在常规武器、空军、海军和陆军上。俄罗斯和中国在防卫上完美的互补。然而，上合组织就是个幌子。情况如果严重的话，他们可能已经拯救了伊朗以控制巴基斯坦、伊拉克、沙特阿拉伯、阿富汗和世界上最大的石油路线。俄罗斯已经重新评估印度，认为其不再属于俄罗斯阵营。
Anon January 25, 2013 at 5:34 am
@Jean-Paul
Did you not receive the latest memo about the latest Russian Nuclear subs, or China's testing of its Carrier-Killers? Right now, the biggest post-WW2 Russian Naval exercise is happening in the Mediterranean. A Naval exercise has been planned for this year again with China, in the Pacific. Go educate yourself. Poor thing, maybe these memos, are only circulated to the higher rung. First let France get out of its entanglements in Mali, and for the UK to vote on the EU. A little flare up against Argentina isn't like facing down the North Fleet you know. Sorry, what you BS…blah..blah…blah… to yourself no matter how real it seems in your head, doesn't make it REALITY.
回复Jean-Paul
你没有收到有关俄罗斯最新型的核潜艇，或者中国测试其航母杀手的最新备忘录么？现在，俄罗斯在二战后的最大规模的海军演习正在地中海上演。今天与中国一道，在太平洋进行一次军事演习的事情正在计划中。回去反省下吧，可怜的家伙，也许这些备忘录只发送给更高一级的用户群。首先让法国脱身出马里的泥潭，然后让英国在欧盟投票。你知道的，对抗阿根廷的一次小胜利可不比面对北方舰队。对不起，无论你对自己说的这些废话blablabla。。。。对你来说有多真实，千万不要当它是现实哦。
。
Anon January 25, 2013 at 6:08 am
Oh, and about subs, don't need to even go into Russian Borei Class Nuke Subs, remember China's little diesel-powered Song?
American military chiefs have been left dumbstruck by an undetected Chinese submarine popping up at the heart of a recent Pacific exercise and close to the vast U.S.S. Kitty Hawk – a 1,000ft supercarrier with 4,500 personnel on board. By the time it surfaced the 160ft Song Class diesel-electric attack submarine is understood to have sailed within viable range for launching torpedoes or missiles at the carrier. According to senior Nato officials the incident caused consternation in the U.S. Navy.The Americans had no idea China's fast-growing submarine fleet had reached such a level of sophistication, or that it posed such a threat.One Nato figure said the effect was "as big a shock as the Russians launching Sputnik" – a reference to the Soviet Union's first orbiting satellite in 1957 which marked the start of the space age. The incident, which took place in the ocean between southern Japan and Taiwan, is a major embarrassment for the Pentagon.
哦，说到潜艇，甚至不要说俄罗斯的北方之神级核潜艇，记得中国的小巧的宋级柴油动力潜艇么？
出现在最近一次太平洋演习的核心位置且距离载员4500名的1000英尺的超级航空母舰—小鹰号相当近的一艘未被监测到的中国潜艇，吓得美国军事首领瑟瑟发抖。等到这艘160英尺的宋级柴电混合动力攻击型潜艇浮出水面时，据悉，它已经身处发射鱼类或导弹的有效攻击范围之内。根据北约高级官员的话说，这一事件引起了美国海军的恐慌。美国根本没料到中国的潜艇已经快速发展到这样先进的水平，或者造成这样一种威胁。一名北约人士说，影响力不亚于“俄罗斯发射人造卫星带来的巨大冲击”——作为参照，前苏联在1957年发射的第一颗轨道卫星，标志着太空时代的开始。这件事发生在日本南部与台湾之间的水域，对五角大楼说，不可谓不尴尬。
Jean-Paul January 25, 2013 at 7:00am
Hmmm it seems like you are hallucinating on some homemade Chinese opium my friend…..Russia has not updated its military in years, its technology is far behind what the west is currently putting out. I'm not sure where your getting your sources from, is it the global times? LOL
Anyways please provide some sources for your claim that the US navy was shocked at this Chinese submarine…..China has had nuclear powered submarines for what? A few years? Anyone who thinks chinese subs are anything worthwhile is seriously delusional. A Japanese admiral had commented on just how noisy Chinese subs are, in fact the article was recently published on the diplomat maybe a month or so ago, nobody is worried about them.
Russia can conduct all the exercises it wants, Germany, France and Britain will prove to be far more capable of churning out anti-ballistic missile defenses, nuclear powered subs, weaponized lasers etc…..Russia is ONLY NOW conducting amphibious assault and joint naval exercises. The west has been doing these things for TWO DECADES while Russia was stuck with massive economic downgrades, 20% unemployment, currency crisis' and a vastly shrinking military.
Do you really think that the Russian military, which is just starting to get back on its feet can suddenly challenge the well established NATO fleets? China cannot even build a proper jet engine so I dont really need to say anything more on them.
Anyways keep dreaming and hallucinating my friend, France is busy fighting to contain Russia and China in Africa and the middle east, as soon as Assad is toppled Russia will no longer even have access to the Mediterranean anyways. Keep talking the talk, NATO is about action while Russia and China are simply sitting in their borders actively watching NATO contain them even further.
嗯嗯嗯。。。似乎你因为中国自制鸦片而产生了幻觉，我的朋友。。。俄罗斯好几年不更新它的军事装备了，它的技术远远落后于目前西方所应用的。我不知道你从哪里弄到你这些消息，环球时报么？哈哈哈
不管怎样，关于美国海军被中国潜艇吓尿的消息，请你提供出处。。。。中国要核动力潜艇干嘛？短短几年？那些认为中国潜艇有价值的人都有严重的妄想症。一名日本海军上将仅仅评论了中国潜艇噪声有多大，事实上，这篇文章可能一个月左右之前，刊登在《外交家》上，没有人担心这些潜艇。
俄罗斯可以进行所有它想要进行的演习，德国、法国和英国将证明，在制造反弹道导弹防御系统、核动力潜艇、激光武器等方面，有远甚于俄罗斯的能力。。。。俄罗斯现在才进行两栖突击及联合军事演习，西方已经做这些20多年了，而俄罗斯深陷大规模经济下降、20%的失业率、货币危机以及大规模军事缩减的泥塘。
你真的认为刚刚开始恢复元气的俄罗斯军队，能突然挑战发展良好的北约舰队么？中国甚至都造不好一台合适的喷射引擎，因此我真的都不必为他们浪费口舌。
不管怎样，保持梦想和幻觉，我的朋友，法国正忙于在非洲和中东地区遏制俄罗斯和中国，只要阿萨德倒台，俄罗斯将不再有通往地中海的路。继续讨论这个话题，北约是采取行动，而俄罗斯和中国只是坐在他们的边界看着北约进一步遏制他们。
John Chan January 25, 2013 at 7:20 am
@Jean-Paul,
France is known as Sahara/Sahel warlord, and an AFRICOM lackey, its huff and puff rely on the transportation and supplies provided by the British, Canadian and the American. The maximum number of troops the French can put into Mali is 2500 men, it is simply too puny to last one skirmish in Asia.
French even cannot pivot back across the water of Mediterranean without asking others to ship the troops for them, it is just silly for you to talk about French getting out of the pool of water between Europe and Africa. Mind you the water outside of Mediterranean is rough, French will get seasick and their ships will become easy prey for the Somalia pirates.
回复Jean-Paul
法国被称为撒哈拉/萨赫勒地区军阀，以及非洲司令部的随从，它的咆哮依赖于英国、加拿大籍美国提供的运输及补给。法国能投放进马里的最大数量的军队是2500人，在应付亚洲的一个小冲突时，这真是太微不足道了。
不请求别的国家帮他们运输军队，法国甚至无法直接穿越地中海。至于你说到的法国走出欧洲和非洲这个小池子，简直是愚蠢至极。友情提示，地中海以外的水域很凶险哦，法国会晕船哦，他们的船很容易会变成索马里海盗的目标哦。
Jean-Paul January 25, 2013 at 11:17 am
@ John Chan
Do I have to keep educating you on basic economics and how nations save money? Why would the French military conduct a military operation on their own when they can save money and receive support from other nations? Your comment makes no sense at all, even China does joint military exercises with Russia, are you trying to say that China cannot do anything without the Russians help?
Of course the French military force in Mali is small, it does not need to bring in a large force when a smaller, more high-tech force can be brought in instead. Once again you are showing your ignorance, in terms of costs, having a smaller, easier to manage force is much more efficient than a massive force which is expensive and unnecessary.
Besides, quality is always superior to quantity and that high tech French force of 2500 could easily outmatch a Chinese force 4-5 times that size. France has much more combat experience than the Chinese army anyway and their fight in Mali will only make them more experienced and more deadly in the long run.
Finally, if France cannot pivot out of the Mediterranean ocean, then how is it possible for France to have a military base in the UAE? Look here to see that France has a global military force, we even have a naval base in French polynesia which is on the other side of the world. Here is the article on France's UAE base: http://www.economist.com/node/10534515
回复John Chan
难道我还需要在基础经济学和国家如何省钱这方面对你进行教育？当他们能省钱并得到其他国家的支助的时候，法国军队为什么要独立进行战斗？你的评论完全没有任何意义，甚至连中国都与俄罗斯进行联合军事演习，你是想说中国没有俄罗斯的帮助的话，啥都干不了么？
法国在马里的军队规模当然小，当带来规模更小、科技含量更高的军事力量时，它不需要带来大规模的军事力量。你再一次显示了你的无知，在成本方面，规模更小、更易管理的军事力量比又昂贵又不必要的大规模军队，效率更高。
此外，质量总是优先于数量，2500人的高科技法国军队能轻易胜过人数是其四五倍的中国军队。无论如何，法国军队比中国军队更有实战经验，且从长远来看，他们在马里进行的战斗将会让他们积累更多经验和更加致命。
最终，如果法国不能走出地中海，那么他们怎么可能在阿联酋有军事基地？看这儿，看看法国的全球军事力量，我们甚至在世界那一端的法属玻里尼西亚有海军基地。这是一篇有关法国在阿联酋的基地的文章：http://www.economist.com/node/10534515
ohn Chan January 26, 2013 at 6:09 am
@Jean-Paul,
You are rather clumsy at explaining away French incompetence; you should say disbanding all French military can save even more money, no wonder France collaborated with Nazi because they wanted to save money.
The commander of AFRICOMsaid 2,500 men had reached the limit of the French military, it seems even the American is not showing much respect to the French. Looking the photos of the French army in Mali is poorly equipped; Al-Qaeda’s roadside bombs will turn those trucks into twisted metal cans easier than Humvees.
Please save us your fabrication, from WWII, Dien Bien Phu to Algeria, French military’s performance is something much to be desired.
Please do not confuse vacation resort with military presence; French Polynesia is a vacation resort for the French military personnel at the expenses of the French public.
回复Jean-Paul
你在掩饰法国的无能方面十分笨拙；你应该说遣散所有的法国军队能省更多钱，难怪法国与纳粹合作，原来他们想省钱。
非洲司令部的指挥官说，2500人已经达到了法国军队的上限，这给人的感觉是，似乎美国人也不太尊重法国人。看看这些在马里的法国军队的破烂装备；比起悍马来，基地组织的路边炸弹更容易把这些卡车炸成扭曲的金属罐。
捏造事实的事，你就省省吧你，从二战的奠边府战役到阿尔及利亚，法国军队的表现一贯不理想。
请不要将度假胜地和军事存在混为一谈；法属玻里尼西亚是由法国人民出资的，提供给法国军队人员的一处度假胜地。
Nirvana January 27, 2013 at 9:31 pm
John Chan has a good point. The last conventional war fought in Asia was the border war between China and Vietnam in 1979. China deployed 400,000 men, 400 tanks in the campaign and reached about 40 km beyond the border after 30 days. Objective: teaching a lesson. Outcome: 60 thousands dead, roughly split between the two sides. John Chan is referring to the PLA's norm in war. Don't pick a fight with the PLA because they have infinite human life "assets".
Jean Paul overlooked one point. France conducted this war under the legal cover of the UN. Therefore, nobody strongly disapproved France's action, including those holding a veto right in the UNSC. Let's see whether China, the world second economy, is going to shoulder some responsibility of peace keeping here. Clearly losing 2500 men is "peanut" to the PLA's norm (3 days of the border war in 1979). France would have a precious military ally in such a terrain and ethnic-prone situation. Go PLA, go teach the terrorists a lesson! It seems that they use the weapons you supplied to Colonel Khaddafi, through South Africa, in the last month of his regime.
John Chan点出了个好地方。亚洲最近的一次常规战争，就是1979年中越之间的边境战争。中国在此次战斗中，部署了40万部队、400辆坦克，30天后，深入越南境内40公里。目标：给越南一个教训。结果：战死六万人，双方大致各占一半。John Chan指的是战争中解放军的规模。不要跟解放军战斗，因为他们有无限的生命“资产”。
Jean Paul忽视了一点。法国在联合国的合法掩护下，进行了这场战斗。因此，没有人坚决反对法国的行动，包括那些在安理会有投票权的国家。让我们看看，是否中国，世界第二大经济体，打算承担一部分在这儿维和的责任。显然，对于解放军的规模而言，损失2500人不过是九牛一毫（1979年边境战争三天就牺牲这么多）。法国将获得一个有着那种地形和种族倾向情况的宝贵的盟友。前进，解放军，去给这些恐怖分子一个教训！似乎这些恐怖分子用的是你们通过南非在卡大佐政权的最后一个月里，提供给他的武器。
John Chan January 28, 2013 at 9:31 am
@nrvana,
It is widely spread on the internet that French is the AFRICOM’s vanguard in the destruction ofSahara/Sahel, and Mali will be French’s Afghanistan; why should anybody spoil the show the French insists to be the lead actor?
回复nrvana
在对撒哈拉沙漠/萨赫勒地区的破坏中，法国是非洲司令部的马前卒这话说法在互联网上广为流传，并且马里将成为法国的阿富汗；为什么大家都对这场法国坚称自己是男主角的演出喝倒彩？
Nirvana January 30, 2013 at 2:54 am
Interesting to learn from John Chan that the PRC's foreign policy is based first on what is "spread on the Internet"! Secondly it is interesting to note that China did not oppose this military intervention in the UN. However, the 2nd economy would prefer not to shoulder its responsibility in Africa, where it is very present. Free-riders!
!
从John Chan处得知中国的外交政策首先是建立在“互联网上广为流传”这个基础上的，这真有趣！其次，很有趣的注意到，中国不反对联合国的这一次军事干预。然而，这个世界第二大经济体不愿意承担自己在非洲的责任，在非洲，中国是很有存在的。中国真是个搭便车的家伙！！
Kanes January 25, 2013 at 11:28 am
Absolutely!
Russian nukes are the best and they are rapidly expanding them now. China should focus more on conventional weapons, air force, navy and land troops. Russia and China are perfect complements in defense. However, SCO is only a sham. If serious, they could have saved Iran which can be used to control Pakistan, Iraq, Saudi, Afghanistan and the world's largest oil route.
Russia has to reassess India which is no longer in the Russian camp.
绝对的！
俄罗斯的核武器是最好的且他们现在正在快速扩大。中国应该更加集中注意在常规武器、空军、海军和陆军上。俄罗斯和中国在防卫上完美的互补。然而，上合组织就是个幌子。情况如果严重的话，他们可能已经拯救了伊朗以控制巴基斯坦、伊拉克、沙特阿拉伯、阿富汗和世界上最大的石油路线。俄罗斯已经重新评估印度，认为其不再属于俄罗斯阵营。
Anon January 25, 2013 at 5:34 am
@Jean-Paul
Did you not receive the latest memo about the latest Russian Nuclear subs, or China's testing of its Carrier-Killers? Right now, the biggest post-WW2 Russian Naval exercise is happening in the Mediterranean. A Naval exercise has been planned for this year again with China, in the Pacific. Go educate yourself. Poor thing, maybe these memos, are only circulated to the higher rung. First let France get out of its entanglements in Mali, and for the UK to vote on the EU. A little flare up against Argentina isn't like facing down the North Fleet you know. Sorry, what you BS…blah..blah…blah… to yourself no matter how real it seems in your head, doesn't make it REALITY.
回复Jean-Paul
你没有收到有关俄罗斯最新型的核潜艇，或者中国测试其航母杀手的最新备忘录么？现在，俄罗斯在二战后的最大规模的海军演习正在地中海上演。今天与中国一道，在太平洋进行一次军事演习的事情正在计划中。回去反省下吧，可怜的家伙，也许这些备忘录只发送给更高一级的用户群。首先让法国脱身出马里的泥潭，然后让英国在欧盟投票。你知道的，对抗阿根廷的一次小胜利可不比面对北方舰队。对不起，无论你对自己说的这些废话blablabla。。。。对你来说有多真实，千万不要当它是现实哦。
。
Anon January 25, 2013 at 6:08 am
Oh, and about subs, don't need to even go into Russian Borei Class Nuke Subs, remember China's little diesel-powered Song?
American military chiefs have been left dumbstruck by an undetected Chinese submarine popping up at the heart of a recent Pacific exercise and close to the vast U.S.S. Kitty Hawk – a 1,000ft supercarrier with 4,500 personnel on board. By the time it surfaced the 160ft Song Class diesel-electric attack submarine is understood to have sailed within viable range for launching torpedoes or missiles at the carrier. According to senior Nato officials the incident caused consternation in the U.S. Navy.The Americans had no idea China's fast-growing submarine fleet had reached such a level of sophistication, or that it posed such a threat.One Nato figure said the effect was "as big a shock as the Russians launching Sputnik" – a reference to the Soviet Union's first orbiting satellite in 1957 which marked the start of the space age. The incident, which took place in the ocean between southern Japan and Taiwan, is a major embarrassment for the Pentagon.
哦，说到潜艇，甚至不要说俄罗斯的北方之神级核潜艇，记得中国的小巧的宋级柴油动力潜艇么？
出现在最近一次太平洋演习的核心位置且距离载员4500名的1000英尺的超级航空母舰—小鹰号相当近的一艘未被监测到的中国潜艇，吓得美国军事首领瑟瑟发抖。等到这艘160英尺的宋级柴电混合动力攻击型潜艇浮出水面时，据悉，它已经身处发射鱼类或导弹的有效攻击范围之内。根据北约高级官员的话说，这一事件引起了美国海军的恐慌。美国根本没料到中国的潜艇已经快速发展到这样先进的水平，或者造成这样一种威胁。一名北约人士说，影响力不亚于“俄罗斯发射人造卫星带来的巨大冲击”——作为参照，前苏联在1957年发射的第一颗轨道卫星，标志着太空时代的开始。这件事发生在日本南部与台湾之间的水域，对五角大楼说，不可谓不尴尬。
Jean-Paul January 25, 2013 at 7:00am
Hmmm it seems like you are hallucinating on some homemade Chinese opium my friend…..Russia has not updated its military in years, its technology is far behind what the west is currently putting out. I'm not sure where your getting your sources from, is it the global times? LOL
Anyways please provide some sources for your claim that the US navy was shocked at this Chinese submarine…..China has had nuclear powered submarines for what? A few years? Anyone who thinks chinese subs are anything worthwhile is seriously delusional. A Japanese admiral had commented on just how noisy Chinese subs are, in fact the article was recently published on the diplomat maybe a month or so ago, nobody is worried about them.
Russia can conduct all the exercises it wants, Germany, France and Britain will prove to be far more capable of churning out anti-ballistic missile defenses, nuclear powered subs, weaponized lasers etc…..Russia is ONLY NOW conducting amphibious assault and joint naval exercises. The west has been doing these things for TWO DECADES while Russia was stuck with massive economic downgrades, 20% unemployment, currency crisis' and a vastly shrinking military.
Do you really think that the Russian military, which is just starting to get back on its feet can suddenly challenge the well established NATO fleets? China cannot even build a proper jet engine so I dont really need to say anything more on them.
Anyways keep dreaming and hallucinating my friend, France is busy fighting to contain Russia and China in Africa and the middle east, as soon as Assad is toppled Russia will no longer even have access to the Mediterranean anyways. Keep talking the talk, NATO is about action while Russia and China are simply sitting in their borders actively watching NATO contain them even further.
嗯嗯嗯。。。似乎你因为中国自制鸦片而产生了幻觉，我的朋友。。。俄罗斯好几年不更新它的军事装备了，它的技术远远落后于目前西方所应用的。我不知道你从哪里弄到你这些消息，环球时报么？哈哈哈
不管怎样，关于美国海军被中国潜艇吓尿的消息，请你提供出处。。。。中国要核动力潜艇干嘛？短短几年？那些认为中国潜艇有价值的人都有严重的妄想症。一名日本海军上将仅仅评论了中国潜艇噪声有多大，事实上，这篇文章可能一个月左右之前，刊登在《外交家》上，没有人担心这些潜艇。
俄罗斯可以进行所有它想要进行的演习，德国、法国和英国将证明，在制造反弹道导弹防御系统、核动力潜艇、激光武器等方面，有远甚于俄罗斯的能力。。。。俄罗斯现在才进行两栖突击及联合军事演习，西方已经做这些20多年了，而俄罗斯深陷大规模经济下降、20%的失业率、货币危机以及大规模军事缩减的泥塘。
你真的认为刚刚开始恢复元气的俄罗斯军队，能突然挑战发展良好的北约舰队么？中国甚至都造不好一台合适的喷射引擎，因此我真的都不必为他们浪费口舌。
不管怎样，保持梦想和幻觉，我的朋友，法国正忙于在非洲和中东地区遏制俄罗斯和中国，只要阿萨德倒台，俄罗斯将不再有通往地中海的路。继续讨论这个话题，北约是采取行动，而俄罗斯和中国只是坐在他们的边界看着北约进一步遏制他们。
。
John Chan January 25, 2013 at 7:44 am
@Jean-Paul,
Anon is kind enough to update you with the latest information, it is not nice of you not to show appreciation to Anon’s caring of the ill-informed French; Anon just doesn’t want the French requesting help from Russia or China when their submarines suddenly lost contact in the middle of Mediterranean or western Pacific.
回复Jean-Paul
Anon人真是太好了，帮你更新最新的信息，而你对Anon对消息不灵光的法国所表示出来的关心，没有表达丝毫感激之情，这真是太不义道了；Anon只是不想法国，在他们的潜艇在地中海或西太平洋突然失去联系时，求助于俄罗斯或中国。
Jean-Paul January 25, 2013 at 11:21 am
Anon did not update me with anything at all, he just spewed out a bunch of propaganda that made little sense. For example how can the Russian military, which has been shrinking for roughly 20 years since the USSR collapse, suddenly compete with the modern and constantly evolving NATO force, which has not collapsed at all.
Also, he cannot provide me with any proper sources proving any of his claims. Until he provides some useful sources I can read, he is just spewing out nonsense.
Anon才没有帮我学到什么东西，他只是夸夸其谈一些没有意义的宣传。比如，自从苏联解体以来收缩了大约20年的俄罗斯军队，怎么能突然与从未崩溃过的、现代化的且不断发展的北约军队相竞争呢？
同样，他没有提供任何他的消息来源给我。除非他能提供一些我能读的有用的消息来源，否则，他只是在喷些没有意义的东西。
Anon January 25, 2013 at 2:01 pm
Don't bother about the ignoramus who are unacquainted with the most basic current knowledge but are nonetheless all psyched about what they can do from their armchair. Not worth addressing, really. Look out, he's going to bring up Tibet, Xinjiang and Inner Mongolia!
不要在乎那些对当前最基本的知识一无所知，但仍然醉心于眼睛盯着鼻子尖的这些无知的人。不值得费心，真的。小心，他将说起XZ、新疆和内蒙古！
Babeouf January 25, 2013 at 6:09 am
Japan now faces the unpleasant prospect of a 'war on two fronts'. It has a territorial dispute with its largest neighbor China which may heat up to boiling point at any time (deliberately or through miscalculation). And a dormant territorial dispute with Russia which may can still erupt into a confrontation. To paraphrase Mao behind all the legal niceties existing between states lurk the cannons. Japanese policy makes potential enemies of both China and Russia. Not exactly divide and conquer.. Not exactly smart.
日本目前面临最让人不安的“两线作战”的前景。它与随时可能爆发（蓄意或者由于误判）的最大的邻国—中国，有着领土纷争。以及与俄罗斯之间的一场随时可能引发冲突的休眠了的领土纷争。套用毛的话说——在所有法律条令背后，国与国之间都存在着潜在的大炮（译注：译者不才，也不知道原话是哪句）。日本的政策使得中国和俄罗斯都成为其潜在的敌人。不全是分而治之，不全是灵巧。
。
Ivan the Terrible January 25, 2013 at 5:57 pm
We Russian is the Super power of the world and America cannot and will not match our power. Without our Red Army, you guys will be living under the Third Reich eating German pork knuckles and horse sausages! Do not forget that my friends!
Russia will keep the Kuriles islands, all of them forever, so you Japanese can butt out. If you dare try, you can expect total defeat as when our glorious general Zukov destroy you puny Japanese invaders in Siberia and then we will take Hokkaido.
我们俄罗斯可是世界超级大国哟，美国不能也将无法比我们匹敌哟。
没有我们苏联红军，你们这些家伙还住在第三帝国，吃德国人的大便和马肠勒！！不要忘了这一点哟，亲！
俄罗斯会永远保留千岛群岛的主权，因此你们日本人就不要唧唧哇哇了哟。如果你们敢试试，就像当初我们伟大的朱可夫将军击败了你们这些渺小的日本侵略者一样，你们就等着大败吧，到时候北海道就是我们的哟。
Captain America January 27, 2013 at 2:52 am
Hey, Ivan the village idiot: Under the KGB gangster-murderer Putin, Russia is dying.Your military is a laughing stock. The Soviet,er… russian army can't even field 3 full strength brigades; your navy is non-existent. The Soviet Union helped to defeat Germany with American help & supplies; remember Comrade, it was American supplied trucks that kept Stalingrad well stocked with supplies & men. Your army could barely invade Georgia, and took heavy losses. India, your former ally is procuring American weaponry, not backwards Russian junk.
The Russian army is a slave army, based on conscription, and half the 'draftees' avoid service. The Russian officer class is just as greedy & corrupt as the Kremlin oligarchs. Your officers care far more about their apartments, cars, salaries & graft then they do the state of the inept, corrupt and backwards military. Hell, Russian military strategy is still based on WW2 tactics of massed tank armies, instead of net-centric warfare, which your military cannot comprehend nor utilize. Russia is backwards, completely corrupt & everybody steals.In 50 years, your population will be half of what it is now, and the Chinese will simply walk across the border & take Siberia & all of its' riches, and the few 'russians' left will be too drunk to stop them (probably will be paid off, too).Das Vidanya loser, Russia will end up on the scrap heap of history.
回楼上：
嗨，Ivan the village白痴：在克格勃强盗杀人犯普京的领导下，俄罗斯正在灭亡。你们的军队就是个笑柄。苏联。。。俄罗斯军队甚至凑不齐三个旅满员的兵员；你们的海军就等于是不存在的。苏联在美国的帮助以及补给下，才帮助打败了德国；记住，同志，是美国提供的卡车帮助斯大林装载物质和人员。你们的军队几乎都不能入侵格鲁吉亚，并承载了巨大的损失。印度，你们的前盟友在采购美国武器，不在要俄国垃圾。
俄罗斯军队是基于征兵的奴隶军队，并且一半的“征召入伍者”当了逃兵。俄罗斯的军官们，跟克里姆林宫的独裁者一样的贪婪和腐败。你们的官员更关心他们自己的公寓、车子、薪水及收受贿赂，然后他们使国家变得无能、腐败、军事退化。见鬼，俄罗斯的军事战略仍旧基于集结坦克部队的二战水平，而不是你们军队无法理解也无法利用的网络中心战。俄罗斯在退化，处处滋生腐败且人人是小偷。50年后，你们的人口将是现在的一半，中国将轻轻松松走过边界，拿走西伯利亚和它所有的财富，而剩下的为数不多的俄罗斯人将因为喝的太多而不能阻止他们（可能也拿了回扣）。再见了（此处为俄语），失败者，俄罗斯将会在历史的垃圾堆里灭亡。
。
Swagman January 27, 2013 at 6:45 pm
I like it.Keep the Kurils.My father was a WW2 POW of the Japanese in Singapore and never got an apology much less compensation.A lot of us don't share Japan's amnesia.Thinking about Russia, remember too that the low-life Stalin was a Georgian.Another one recently tried to start a war between Russia and NATO over South Ossetia.What is it with Georgians?
我喜欢它。留下千岛群岛。我爸爸是日本人在新加坡的二战战俘，从未得到一个抱歉，更不用说赔偿了。我们中的大多数并没有感染上日本的健忘症。想想俄罗斯，我们也记得斯大林可是个穷困潦倒的格鲁吉亚人。另一个家伙，最近试图在南奥塞梯引发俄罗斯和北约之间的战争。它和格鲁吉亚人是什么关系？
C C P Member January 26, 2013 at 1:45 am
The tales of two governments dealing with territory disputed with other countries:
China Communist Party CCP
Ongoing territory dispute with Bhutan, India, Taiwan, Vietnam, Philippine, Malaysia, S Korea, N Korea, Russia,
CCP had captured Philippine, Vietnamese fishing boats and demanded they pay for release. Cut cable of Viet Nam vessel.
CCP patrol boats continue a cat and mouse game of harassment in disputed water. It had threatened and carried out economics retaliation against its neighbors.
CCP has incited riots against Japanese interest in China. CCP officials and media made crudely aggressive and demeaning statements toward its neighbor.
CCP never apologized to its neighbors for the past invasions that caused pain and suffering.
CCP still receiving Foreign Aid in 2012 even though it is the 2nd largest economy in the world.
This is not how CIVILIZED NATION behaves.
Liberal Democratic Party LDP
Ongoing territorial dispute with South Korea, Russia, Taiwan and China
Japan has not used or threatened force, or applied economic pressure to retrieve what it considers Japan territory.
Japan had been a responsible country over the last half century.It has apologized repeatedly, even if perhaps imperfectly to some, for its behavior during the WII. Japan had provided billions of dollars in regional aid. Today Japan is not the Imperialism of the WII as much as CCP would have people believe.
两个政府与其他国家处理领土争议的故事：
中国GCD—CCP
与不丹、印度、台湾、越南、菲律宾、马来西亚、韩国、朝鲜及俄罗斯之间仍存在领土争议
GCD抓捕菲律宾、越南的渔船并要求他们交赎金。割断越南舰船的电缆。
GCD的巡逻船在争议水域一直在玩猫捉老鼠的把戏。它曾威胁并使用经济手段报复邻国。
GCD在国内煽动伤害日本利益的反日暴行。GCD官方及媒体对其邻国使用粗鲁、攻击性的、刻薄的言辞。
GCD从未因为过去给邻国造成痛苦和伤害的侵略行为而向它的邻国道过谦。
GCD在2012年仍然接受外援，即使它是世界第二大经济体。
这不是文明国家的行为。
——————————
自由民主党
与韩国、俄罗斯、台湾及中国之间仍有领土争议。
日本没有使用或威胁使用武力或运用经济压力来要回它认为的日本领土。
在过去的半个世纪，日本一直是个负责任的国家。它屡次因为它在二战的行为而道歉，即使可能对一些人来说，这个道歉并不完美。日本提供了数十亿美元的区域援助。人们将相信，今天的日本不是如同GCD一样的，二战时的帝国主义日本。
John Chan January 25, 2013 at 7:44 am
@Jean-Paul,
Anon is kind enough to update you with the latest information, it is not nice of you not to show appreciation to Anon’s caring of the ill-informed French; Anon just doesn’t want the French requesting help from Russia or China when their submarines suddenly lost contact in the middle of Mediterranean or western Pacific.
回复Jean-Paul
Anon人真是太好了，帮你更新最新的信息，而你对Anon对消息不灵光的法国所表示出来的关心，没有表达丝毫感激之情，这真是太不义道了；Anon只是不想法国，在他们的潜艇在地中海或西太平洋突然失去联系时，求助于俄罗斯或中国。
Jean-Paul January 25, 2013 at 11:21 am
Anon did not update me with anything at all, he just spewed out a bunch of propaganda that made little sense. For example how can the Russian military, which has been shrinking for roughly 20 years since the USSR collapse, suddenly compete with the modern and constantly evolving NATO force, which has not collapsed at all.
Also, he cannot provide me with any proper sources proving any of his claims. Until he provides some useful sources I can read, he is just spewing out nonsense.
Anon才没有帮我学到什么东西，他只是夸夸其谈一些没有意义的宣传。比如，自从苏联解体以来收缩了大约20年的俄罗斯军队，怎么能突然与从未崩溃过的、现代化的且不断发展的北约军队相竞争呢？
同样，他没有提供任何他的消息来源给我。除非他能提供一些我能读的有用的消息来源，否则，他只是在喷些没有意义的东西。
Anon January 25, 2013 at 2:01 pm
Don't bother about the ignoramus who are unacquainted with the most basic current knowledge but are nonetheless all psyched about what they can do from their armchair. Not worth addressing, really. Look out, he's going to bring up Tibet, Xinjiang and Inner Mongolia!
不要在乎那些对当前最基本的知识一无所知，但仍然醉心于眼睛盯着鼻子尖的这些无知的人。不值得费心，真的。小心，他将说起XZ、新疆和内蒙古！
Babeouf January 25, 2013 at 6:09 am
Japan now faces the unpleasant prospect of a 'war on two fronts'. It has a territorial dispute with its largest neighbor China which may heat up to boiling point at any time (deliberately or through miscalculation). And a dormant territorial dispute with Russia which may can still erupt into a confrontation. To paraphrase Mao behind all the legal niceties existing between states lurk the cannons. Japanese policy makes potential enemies of both China and Russia. Not exactly divide and conquer.. Not exactly smart.
日本目前面临最让人不安的“两线作战”的前景。它与随时可能爆发（蓄意或者由于误判）的最大的邻国—中国，有着领土纷争。以及与俄罗斯之间的一场随时可能引发冲突的休眠了的领土纷争。套用毛的话说——在所有法律条令背后，国与国之间都存在着潜在的大炮（译注：译者不才，也不知道原话是哪句）。日本的政策使得中国和俄罗斯都成为其潜在的敌人。不全是分而治之，不全是灵巧。
。
Ivan the Terrible January 25, 2013 at 5:57 pm
We Russian is the Super power of the world and America cannot and will not match our power. Without our Red Army, you guys will be living under the Third Reich eating German pork knuckles and horse sausages! Do not forget that my friends!
Russia will keep the Kuriles islands, all of them forever, so you Japanese can butt out. If you dare try, you can expect total defeat as when our glorious general Zukov destroy you puny Japanese invaders in Siberia and then we will take Hokkaido.
我们俄罗斯可是世界超级大国哟，美国不能也将无法比我们匹敌哟。
没有我们苏联红军，你们这些家伙还住在第三帝国，吃德国人的大便和马肠勒！！不要忘了这一点哟，亲！
俄罗斯会永远保留千岛群岛的主权，因此你们日本人就不要唧唧哇哇了哟。如果你们敢试试，就像当初我们伟大的朱可夫将军击败了你们这些渺小的日本侵略者一样，你们就等着大败吧，到时候北海道就是我们的哟。
Captain America January 27, 2013 at 2:52 am
Hey, Ivan the village idiot: Under the KGB gangster-murderer Putin, Russia is dying.Your military is a laughing stock. The Soviet,er… russian army can't even field 3 full strength brigades; your navy is non-existent. The Soviet Union helped to defeat Germany with American help & supplies; remember Comrade, it was American supplied trucks that kept Stalingrad well stocked with supplies & men. Your army could barely invade Georgia, and took heavy losses. India, your former ally is procuring American weaponry, not backwards Russian junk.
The Russian army is a slave army, based on conscription, and half the 'draftees' avoid service. The Russian officer class is just as greedy & corrupt as the Kremlin oligarchs. Your officers care far more about their apartments, cars, salaries & graft then they do the state of the inept, corrupt and backwards military. Hell, Russian military strategy is still based on WW2 tactics of massed tank armies, instead of net-centric warfare, which your military cannot comprehend nor utilize. Russia is backwards, completely corrupt & everybody steals.In 50 years, your population will be half of what it is now, and the Chinese will simply walk across the border & take Siberia & all of its' riches, and the few 'russians' left will be too drunk to stop them (probably will be paid off, too).Das Vidanya loser, Russia will end up on the scrap heap of history.
回楼上：
嗨，Ivan the village白痴：在克格勃强盗杀人犯普京的领导下，俄罗斯正在灭亡。你们的军队就是个笑柄。苏联。。。俄罗斯军队甚至凑不齐三个旅满员的兵员；你们的海军就等于是不存在的。苏联在美国的帮助以及补给下，才帮助打败了德国；记住，同志，是美国提供的卡车帮助斯大林装载物质和人员。你们的军队几乎都不能入侵格鲁吉亚，并承载了巨大的损失。印度，你们的前盟友在采购美国武器，不在要俄国垃圾。
俄罗斯军队是基于征兵的奴隶军队，并且一半的“征召入伍者”当了逃兵。俄罗斯的军官们，跟克里姆林宫的独裁者一样的贪婪和腐败。你们的官员更关心他们自己的公寓、车子、薪水及收受贿赂，然后他们使国家变得无能、腐败、军事退化。见鬼，俄罗斯的军事战略仍旧基于集结坦克部队的二战水平，而不是你们军队无法理解也无法利用的网络中心战。俄罗斯在退化，处处滋生腐败且人人是小偷。50年后，你们的人口将是现在的一半，中国将轻轻松松走过边界，拿走西伯利亚和它所有的财富，而剩下的为数不多的俄罗斯人将因为喝的太多而不能阻止他们（可能也拿了回扣）。再见了（此处为俄语），失败者，俄罗斯将会在历史的垃圾堆里灭亡。
。
Swagman January 27, 2013 at 6:45 pm
I like it.Keep the Kurils.My father was a WW2 POW of the Japanese in Singapore and never got an apology much less compensation.A lot of us don't share Japan's amnesia.Thinking about Russia, remember too that the low-life Stalin was a Georgian.Another one recently tried to start a war between Russia and NATO over South Ossetia.What is it with Georgians?
我喜欢它。留下千岛群岛。我爸爸是日本人在新加坡的二战战俘，从未得到一个抱歉，更不用说赔偿了。我们中的大多数并没有感染上日本的健忘症。想想俄罗斯，我们也记得斯大林可是个穷困潦倒的格鲁吉亚人。另一个家伙，最近试图在南奥塞梯引发俄罗斯和北约之间的战争。它和格鲁吉亚人是什么关系？
C C P Member January 26, 2013 at 1:45 am
The tales of two governments dealing with territory disputed with other countries:
China Communist Party CCP
Ongoing territory dispute with Bhutan, India, Taiwan, Vietnam, Philippine, Malaysia, S Korea, N Korea, Russia,
CCP had captured Philippine, Vietnamese fishing boats and demanded they pay for release. Cut cable of Viet Nam vessel.
CCP patrol boats continue a cat and mouse game of harassment in disputed water. It had threatened and carried out economics retaliation against its neighbors.
CCP has incited riots against Japanese interest in China. CCP officials and media made crudely aggressive and demeaning statements toward its neighbor.
CCP never apologized to its neighbors for the past invasions that caused pain and suffering.
CCP still receiving Foreign Aid in 2012 even though it is the 2nd largest economy in the world.
This is not how CIVILIZED NATION behaves.
Liberal Democratic Party LDP
Ongoing territorial dispute with South Korea, Russia, Taiwan and China
Japan has not used or threatened force, or applied economic pressure to retrieve what it considers Japan territory.
Japan had been a responsible country over the last half century.It has apologized repeatedly, even if perhaps imperfectly to some, for its behavior during the WII. Japan had provided billions of dollars in regional aid. Today Japan is not the Imperialism of the WII as much as CCP would have people believe.
两个政府与其他国家处理领土争议的故事：
中国GCD—CCP
与不丹、印度、台湾、越南、菲律宾、马来西亚、韩国、朝鲜及俄罗斯之间仍存在领土争议
GCD抓捕菲律宾、越南的渔船并要求他们交赎金。割断越南舰船的电缆。
GCD的巡逻船在争议水域一直在玩猫捉老鼠的把戏。它曾威胁并使用经济手段报复邻国。
GCD在国内煽动伤害日本利益的反日暴行。GCD官方及媒体对其邻国使用粗鲁、攻击性的、刻薄的言辞。
GCD从未因为过去给邻国造成痛苦和伤害的侵略行为而向它的邻国道过谦。
GCD在2012年仍然接受外援，即使它是世界第二大经济体。
这不是文明国家的行为。
——————————
自由民主党
与韩国、俄罗斯、台湾及中国之间仍有领土争议。
日本没有使用或威胁使用武力或运用经济压力来要回它认为的日本领土。
在过去的半个世纪，日本一直是个负责任的国家。它屡次因为它在二战的行为而道歉，即使可能对一些人来说，这个道歉并不完美。日本提供了数十亿美元的区域援助。人们将相信，今天的日本不是如同GCD一样的，二战时的帝国主义日本。
对于北方四岛 可以参考加里宁格勒 德国要是能要回 鬼子估计也能要回
问题是要得回吗
谁见过熊把吃下去的东西吐出来的 除非 鹅毛人口迅速降至6000w
问题是要得回吗
谁见过熊把吃下去的东西吐出来的 除非 鹅毛人口迅速降至6000w
泥马，我怎马搅得这个论坛的水平比CD要高一截，不管观点如何，人家都是言之有物啊~~
fafo770 发表于 2013-2-23 22:38 
对于北方四岛 可以参考加里宁格勒 德国要是能要回 鬼子估计也能要回
问题是要得回吗
谁见过熊把吃下去 ...
嗯嗯，德国二战后失去的土地要比日本多得多，而且都是真金白银，人德国要过吗？
对于北方四岛 可以参考加里宁格勒 德国要是能要回 鬼子估计也能要回
问题是要得回吗
谁见过熊把吃下去 ...
嗯嗯，德国二战后失去的土地要比日本多得多，而且都是真金白银，人德国要过吗？
。
Bibi January 27, 2013 at 1:08 am
I want to pick one dispute you listed and it is with India because it is well-documented.Here are two sources that you may want to check out:
http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/podcasts/India_China_Border.mp3
http://www.gregoryclark.net/redif.html
回楼上
我想指出你列出的一个争议的不实之处（译注：结合上下文）——与印度的争议，因为它证据确凿。这儿有两个消息来源，你可能希望查看
http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/podcasts/India_China_Border.mp3
http://www.gregoryclark.net/redif.html
nirvana January 28, 2013 at 2:37 am
@Bibi,
Thanks for the links. There are indeed well-documented opinions that India was the one to blame for the 1962 border conflicts.
What is your opinion/documentation about: Korea (51), Tibet (1959), Russia (69), Vietnam (1974,1979, 1988), Vietnam, Philippines and Japan today? The Chinese thesis is that each time they were provoked. But can one generalize from the Indo-China conflict that China was victim of demonization all the time?
回复Bibi
谢谢你提供这些链接。确实有证据支持印度是1962年边界冲突中的角色是属于被责难方的观点。
你有关以下这些战争的观点和证据是什么：朝鲜战争（1951）、XZ（1959）、中苏战争（1969）（译注：珍宝岛咩？）、中越战争（1974、1979、1988年）以及今天的越南、菲律宾和日本？中国人的观点是，每一次，他们都是自卫反击。但从中印冲突能概括出，中国总是妖魔化的受害者么？
Booo Xiii Laiii January 29, 2013 at 12:30 am
Comrades @c C P – ""CCP still receiving Foreign Aid in 2012 even though it is the 2nd largest economy in the world"
According to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, foreign aid to China totals $2.6 billion a year. The biggest donor is Japan, followed by Germany, France and Britain, then the U.S.
There goes an idiom "Don't bite the hand that feed you" could not get through since CCP members had preached MOTTO:
1) Cheat is good
2) Lie is Great
3) Steal is greatest
No wondering that there are millions of illusion CCP members inside China now going to quit CCP, this include large number from the arm forces as well.
On the other hand, the problem of Chinese officials abandoning their posts and emigrating overseas has become severe. In January 2010, a report indicated that according to the CCP
Central Organization Department investigation, 1.8 million families of senior CCP cadres moved to Hong Kong and Macau over the years. Included are former Politburo Standing Committee ZengQinghong's son, Zeng Wei, and the two sons of Politburo Standing Committee Jia Qinglin.
All CCP Bloggers — Heaven's net seems sparse, but nothing escapes.
It means that justice is surely to come serve the righteous.
To the atheist communist regime which fights against heaven's laws, the heavenly net of justice is now in motion.
同志们，回复C C P Member——“GCD在2012年仍然接受外援，即使它是世界第二大经济体。”
根据经合组织的统计，一年对中国的外援，总额是26亿美元。最大的捐助者是日本，随后是德国、法国和英国，然后是美国。
自从中国开始鼓吹下面这些座右铭，那句叫做“不要咬喂你的那只手”的俗语就行不通了：
1、欺骗是好的行为
2、说话很棒
3、偷窃棒极了
难怪中国国内有数百万的带有幻想的GCD员打算推党，军队中也有不少人要退党。
另一方面，中国官员们放弃职位并移民海外的问题也变得很严重。在2010年1月，根据中共中央组织部的调查报告显示，多年来，有180万中共高级官员的家族成员将家搬到香港和澳门。包括前中央政治局常委曾庆红的儿子，曾伟以及中央政治局常委贾庆林的两个儿子。
所有的中共博主们——天网恢恢，疏而不漏。
意思是正义一定会得到伸张。对于与天理抗争的无神论共产主义政权来说，正在受到天谴。
。
Anon January 27, 2013 at 5:49 pm
@fake C C C P member
Japan likes to WHITEWASH its history, just ask its WW2 victims Korea and China. What you will get is the reverse accusation from Japan and its allies, that the victims are victimizing Japan. This is chutzpah of the highest order.
The only people sympathetic to Japan, as shown on this site and other pro-Japan sites, are WHITE POWERS, the same powers that COLONIZED China, and the whole Asia, nuked Japan and are now targeting China, and helping Japan in its campaign of vilification.
Japan is now the PAWN of the WHITE POWERS to use against Asia, in particular, the largest Asian power, China.
This JAPANESE WHITEWASHING extends to the current events.
In the past, Japan's coast guard ships have repeatedly RAMMED Hong Kong and Taiwanese fishing boats and causing dangerous damages. Diaoyu Tai – literally means "Fishing Platform", has been the fishing grounds for centuries for fishing boats from China.
Japan also rammed nationalist boats from Hong Kong and Taiwan, one nationalist from Hong Kong drowned in one such incident.
Recently, in response to a tiny Y-10 CIVILIANsurvey plane flying near the Diaoyu Islands, Japan sent 8 F15 FIGHTER PLANES to harass this small unarmed CIVILIAN plane.
The Koreans no doubt have their own litany of Japanese aggression.
One of the WORST WHITEWASHING ongoing is the FUKUSHIMA CONTAMINATION, which is covered up by Japan and the WHITE POWERS. Japan is poisoning the Pacific Ocean in an unprecedented manner, but all is covered up by the MSM.
Tepco even released figures that pointed to Fukushima releasing FOUR TIMES THE CESIUM LEVEL OF CHERNOBYL, yet how many have head of it? Chernobyl put out a toChernobyl put out a total of 85,000 TBq of caesium-137 over the course of the disaster. The Fukushima reactor, however, has so far released 360,000 TBq of cesium-137, according to TEPCO.
This is the UNVARNISHED TRUTH instead of your transparent propaganda.
回复假冒C C P member
日本喜欢洗白它的历史，这只要问问它二战的受害者朝鲜和中国就知道了。你将得到的是，来自于日本及其盟友相反的指控，那就是这些受害者正在欺诈日本。这正是最大程度的肆无忌惮。
本网站以及其他亲日网站上同情日本的人，只可能是白种人国家，就是殖民中国以及整个亚洲、核平日本，现在又将目标瞄准中国，在这场污蔑中国的活动中帮助日本的那些国家。
日本现在是那些白种人国家用来制衡亚洲，特别是亚洲最大的国家—中国的一颗棋子。
日本的洗白行为已经延伸到了现在发生的一些事情。
在过去，日本的海岸警备队船只一再骚扰香港和台湾的渔船并造成危险的损害。钓鱼台—字面上的意思是“钓鱼的平台”，几个世纪以来，一直是中国渔民的渔场。
日本同样骚扰香港和台湾的保钓船，一艘香港的保钓船就在一次这样的事故中沉没了。
最近，为回应小型运10民用测量飞机飞临钓鱼岛，日本派出了8架F15干扰这架小型的手无寸铁的民用飞机。
朝鲜人民毫无疑问有着被日本侵略的冗长历史。
最糟糕的洗白行为之一就是被日本和白种人国家掩盖的福岛核污染。日本以一种前所未有的方式污染着太平洋，但是一切都被主流媒体掩盖了。
东京电力发布的数据甚至指称福岛释放出的铯元素的水平是切尔诺贝利的四倍，然而有多少人已经死于这些放射性元素？切尔诺贝利在这场灾难中，释放出总量为85000TBq的铯-137。然而，根据东电的报道，福岛反应堆目前为止已经释放出360000TBq的铯-137。
这都是赤裸裸的真相，而不是你的透明的宣传。
Jean-Paul January 28, 2013 at 1:10 am
@ Anon
Hey look guys its anon here once again spewing out un-sourced rubbish all in the name of the "unvarnished truth". Really, Fukushima was worse than Chernobyl? What are you going to say next that China won the Korean war?
Hey Anon let me teach you how to debate properly, in a debate you need to make points that are not only logically sound and make sense, but are also backed by legitimate sources. Your radiation claims are completely made up, did you get those stats from the global times? Here, let me give you a credible source showing just how bad the Chernobyl disaster was in comparison with Fukushima and I'll quote it directly:
"Japan's nuclear safety commission has estimated that the Fukushima plant's reactors had released up to 10,000 terabecquerels of radioactive iodine-131 per hour into the air for several hours after they were damaged in the 11 March earthquake and tsunami. It said emissions since then had dropped to below one terabecquerel per hour, adding that it was examining the total amount of radioactive materials released. A terabecquerel equals a trillion becquerels, a measure for radiation emissions. The government says the Chernobyl incident released 5.2m terabecquerels into the air about 10 times that of the Fukushima plant."
Source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/ ... l-crisis-comparison
Also, your racist ranting about white powers make your posts seem a little angry and rabid, next time take a deep breath and then post so that you might make a little more sense. Your rants all point to one thing that we have all known for quite sometime. China still hasn't gotten over its spanking that it received by the British and French during the opium wars and even to this day is still jealous of all the accomplishments that white people have achieved over your so called "superior" Han race. Please save your jealous ranting for the global times forums, they only make you sound like a child here.
回复 Anon
嗨，看Anon这家伙再一次以“不加修饰的真相”的名义，喷吐这些没有出处的垃圾。真的，福岛比切尔诺贝利严重？你下一步是要说中国赢了朝鲜战争么？
？
嗨，Anon，让我教你如何正确地辩论，在一场辩论中你需要树立不仅有逻辑性和有意义的，还要有合法出处的论点。你的说法完全是虚构的，你是从环球时报上得到这些数据的么？来，让我给你一个可信的来源，向你展示出，与福岛相比，切尔诺贝利有多糟糕；我直接写在下面了：“日本的核安全委员会估计福岛核电站的反应堆在3月11日的地震和海啸中被损坏后，每小时向空气中释放多达10000太贝可的放射性碘- 131。据说，自那时以来排放量降到每小时1太贝可，并说这是检查的释放出的放射性物质的总量。”在测量放射性释放物时，1太贝可相当于一万亿贝可。政府说，切尔诺贝利事故释放出520万太贝可到空中，大约是福岛核电站的10倍。
出处：
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/12/japan-fukushima-chernobyl-crisis-comparison
同样，你对白人种族主义的咆哮，使你发表的文字，似乎有点愤怒和狂暴，下次深呼吸然后贴出你想说的话，这可能会让你的发言变得稍微有点意义。你的咆哮都指向长久以来，我们都知道的一件事。中国还没有放下，在鸦片战争中被英法联军狠揍的这件事；甚至到了今天，它仍嫉妒白种人超越你们所谓的“优秀”的汉族，所取得的所有成就。
Bibi January 27, 2013 at 1:08 am
I want to pick one dispute you listed and it is with India because it is well-documented.Here are two sources that you may want to check out:
http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/podcasts/India_China_Border.mp3
http://www.gregoryclark.net/redif.html
回楼上
我想指出你列出的一个争议的不实之处（译注：结合上下文）——与印度的争议，因为它证据确凿。这儿有两个消息来源，你可能希望查看
http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/podcasts/India_China_Border.mp3
http://www.gregoryclark.net/redif.html
nirvana January 28, 2013 at 2:37 am
@Bibi,
Thanks for the links. There are indeed well-documented opinions that India was the one to blame for the 1962 border conflicts.
What is your opinion/documentation about: Korea (51), Tibet (1959), Russia (69), Vietnam (1974,1979, 1988), Vietnam, Philippines and Japan today? The Chinese thesis is that each time they were provoked. But can one generalize from the Indo-China conflict that China was victim of demonization all the time?
回复Bibi
谢谢你提供这些链接。确实有证据支持印度是1962年边界冲突中的角色是属于被责难方的观点。
你有关以下这些战争的观点和证据是什么：朝鲜战争（1951）、XZ（1959）、中苏战争（1969）（译注：珍宝岛咩？）、中越战争（1974、1979、1988年）以及今天的越南、菲律宾和日本？中国人的观点是，每一次，他们都是自卫反击。但从中印冲突能概括出，中国总是妖魔化的受害者么？
Booo Xiii Laiii January 29, 2013 at 12:30 am
Comrades @c C P – ""CCP still receiving Foreign Aid in 2012 even though it is the 2nd largest economy in the world"
According to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, foreign aid to China totals $2.6 billion a year. The biggest donor is Japan, followed by Germany, France and Britain, then the U.S.
There goes an idiom "Don't bite the hand that feed you" could not get through since CCP members had preached MOTTO:
1) Cheat is good
2) Lie is Great
3) Steal is greatest
No wondering that there are millions of illusion CCP members inside China now going to quit CCP, this include large number from the arm forces as well.
On the other hand, the problem of Chinese officials abandoning their posts and emigrating overseas has become severe. In January 2010, a report indicated that according to the CCP
Central Organization Department investigation, 1.8 million families of senior CCP cadres moved to Hong Kong and Macau over the years. Included are former Politburo Standing Committee ZengQinghong's son, Zeng Wei, and the two sons of Politburo Standing Committee Jia Qinglin.
All CCP Bloggers — Heaven's net seems sparse, but nothing escapes.
It means that justice is surely to come serve the righteous.
To the atheist communist regime which fights against heaven's laws, the heavenly net of justice is now in motion.
同志们，回复C C P Member——“GCD在2012年仍然接受外援，即使它是世界第二大经济体。”
根据经合组织的统计，一年对中国的外援，总额是26亿美元。最大的捐助者是日本，随后是德国、法国和英国，然后是美国。
自从中国开始鼓吹下面这些座右铭，那句叫做“不要咬喂你的那只手”的俗语就行不通了：
1、欺骗是好的行为
2、说话很棒
3、偷窃棒极了
难怪中国国内有数百万的带有幻想的GCD员打算推党，军队中也有不少人要退党。
另一方面，中国官员们放弃职位并移民海外的问题也变得很严重。在2010年1月，根据中共中央组织部的调查报告显示，多年来，有180万中共高级官员的家族成员将家搬到香港和澳门。包括前中央政治局常委曾庆红的儿子，曾伟以及中央政治局常委贾庆林的两个儿子。
所有的中共博主们——天网恢恢，疏而不漏。
意思是正义一定会得到伸张。对于与天理抗争的无神论共产主义政权来说，正在受到天谴。
。
Anon January 27, 2013 at 5:49 pm
@fake C C C P member
Japan likes to WHITEWASH its history, just ask its WW2 victims Korea and China. What you will get is the reverse accusation from Japan and its allies, that the victims are victimizing Japan. This is chutzpah of the highest order.
The only people sympathetic to Japan, as shown on this site and other pro-Japan sites, are WHITE POWERS, the same powers that COLONIZED China, and the whole Asia, nuked Japan and are now targeting China, and helping Japan in its campaign of vilification.
Japan is now the PAWN of the WHITE POWERS to use against Asia, in particular, the largest Asian power, China.
This JAPANESE WHITEWASHING extends to the current events.
In the past, Japan's coast guard ships have repeatedly RAMMED Hong Kong and Taiwanese fishing boats and causing dangerous damages. Diaoyu Tai – literally means "Fishing Platform", has been the fishing grounds for centuries for fishing boats from China.
Japan also rammed nationalist boats from Hong Kong and Taiwan, one nationalist from Hong Kong drowned in one such incident.
Recently, in response to a tiny Y-10 CIVILIANsurvey plane flying near the Diaoyu Islands, Japan sent 8 F15 FIGHTER PLANES to harass this small unarmed CIVILIAN plane.
The Koreans no doubt have their own litany of Japanese aggression.
One of the WORST WHITEWASHING ongoing is the FUKUSHIMA CONTAMINATION, which is covered up by Japan and the WHITE POWERS. Japan is poisoning the Pacific Ocean in an unprecedented manner, but all is covered up by the MSM.
Tepco even released figures that pointed to Fukushima releasing FOUR TIMES THE CESIUM LEVEL OF CHERNOBYL, yet how many have head of it? Chernobyl put out a toChernobyl put out a total of 85,000 TBq of caesium-137 over the course of the disaster. The Fukushima reactor, however, has so far released 360,000 TBq of cesium-137, according to TEPCO.
This is the UNVARNISHED TRUTH instead of your transparent propaganda.
回复假冒C C P member
日本喜欢洗白它的历史，这只要问问它二战的受害者朝鲜和中国就知道了。你将得到的是，来自于日本及其盟友相反的指控，那就是这些受害者正在欺诈日本。这正是最大程度的肆无忌惮。
本网站以及其他亲日网站上同情日本的人，只可能是白种人国家，就是殖民中国以及整个亚洲、核平日本，现在又将目标瞄准中国，在这场污蔑中国的活动中帮助日本的那些国家。
日本现在是那些白种人国家用来制衡亚洲，特别是亚洲最大的国家—中国的一颗棋子。
日本的洗白行为已经延伸到了现在发生的一些事情。
在过去，日本的海岸警备队船只一再骚扰香港和台湾的渔船并造成危险的损害。钓鱼台—字面上的意思是“钓鱼的平台”，几个世纪以来，一直是中国渔民的渔场。
日本同样骚扰香港和台湾的保钓船，一艘香港的保钓船就在一次这样的事故中沉没了。
最近，为回应小型运10民用测量飞机飞临钓鱼岛，日本派出了8架F15干扰这架小型的手无寸铁的民用飞机。
朝鲜人民毫无疑问有着被日本侵略的冗长历史。
最糟糕的洗白行为之一就是被日本和白种人国家掩盖的福岛核污染。日本以一种前所未有的方式污染着太平洋，但是一切都被主流媒体掩盖了。
东京电力发布的数据甚至指称福岛释放出的铯元素的水平是切尔诺贝利的四倍，然而有多少人已经死于这些放射性元素？切尔诺贝利在这场灾难中，释放出总量为85000TBq的铯-137。然而，根据东电的报道，福岛反应堆目前为止已经释放出360000TBq的铯-137。
这都是赤裸裸的真相，而不是你的透明的宣传。
Jean-Paul January 28, 2013 at 1:10 am
@ Anon
Hey look guys its anon here once again spewing out un-sourced rubbish all in the name of the "unvarnished truth". Really, Fukushima was worse than Chernobyl? What are you going to say next that China won the Korean war?
Hey Anon let me teach you how to debate properly, in a debate you need to make points that are not only logically sound and make sense, but are also backed by legitimate sources. Your radiation claims are completely made up, did you get those stats from the global times? Here, let me give you a credible source showing just how bad the Chernobyl disaster was in comparison with Fukushima and I'll quote it directly:
"Japan's nuclear safety commission has estimated that the Fukushima plant's reactors had released up to 10,000 terabecquerels of radioactive iodine-131 per hour into the air for several hours after they were damaged in the 11 March earthquake and tsunami. It said emissions since then had dropped to below one terabecquerel per hour, adding that it was examining the total amount of radioactive materials released. A terabecquerel equals a trillion becquerels, a measure for radiation emissions. The government says the Chernobyl incident released 5.2m terabecquerels into the air about 10 times that of the Fukushima plant."
Source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/ ... l-crisis-comparison
Also, your racist ranting about white powers make your posts seem a little angry and rabid, next time take a deep breath and then post so that you might make a little more sense. Your rants all point to one thing that we have all known for quite sometime. China still hasn't gotten over its spanking that it received by the British and French during the opium wars and even to this day is still jealous of all the accomplishments that white people have achieved over your so called "superior" Han race. Please save your jealous ranting for the global times forums, they only make you sound like a child here.
回复 Anon
嗨，看Anon这家伙再一次以“不加修饰的真相”的名义，喷吐这些没有出处的垃圾。真的，福岛比切尔诺贝利严重？你下一步是要说中国赢了朝鲜战争么？
？
嗨，Anon，让我教你如何正确地辩论，在一场辩论中你需要树立不仅有逻辑性和有意义的，还要有合法出处的论点。你的说法完全是虚构的，你是从环球时报上得到这些数据的么？来，让我给你一个可信的来源，向你展示出，与福岛相比，切尔诺贝利有多糟糕；我直接写在下面了：“日本的核安全委员会估计福岛核电站的反应堆在3月11日的地震和海啸中被损坏后，每小时向空气中释放多达10000太贝可的放射性碘- 131。据说，自那时以来排放量降到每小时1太贝可，并说这是检查的释放出的放射性物质的总量。”在测量放射性释放物时，1太贝可相当于一万亿贝可。政府说，切尔诺贝利事故释放出520万太贝可到空中，大约是福岛核电站的10倍。
出处：
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/12/japan-fukushima-chernobyl-crisis-comparison
同样，你对白人种族主义的咆哮，使你发表的文字，似乎有点愤怒和狂暴，下次深呼吸然后贴出你想说的话，这可能会让你的发言变得稍微有点意义。你的咆哮都指向长久以来，我们都知道的一件事。中国还没有放下，在鸦片战争中被英法联军狠揍的这件事；甚至到了今天，它仍嫉妒白种人超越你们所谓的“优秀”的汉族，所取得的所有成就。
。
Nirvana January 29, 2013 at 9:59 pm
@sc Lai,
We all understand how Chinese suffered the barbarity of Imperial Japan. So did Filipinos, Vietnamese, Burmese… It is also understood that your nation need a "gesture" from Japan to close the chapter. BUT, your people had that opportunity several times 20-30 years ago. When Japan capitulated, you could reclaim whatever you want. The Russians even got what they wanted although they did not suffer as much as China and really took part in the war only 2 days after Hiroshima.
Now, if you have "great leaders" such as the Generalissimo who said nothing about Daioyu in Postdam, and nothing during the time the ROC represented your people at the UN, If you have the great Mao who said to Tanaka "You should not apologize…. Without Imperial Army we would not be in power today", such as the diminutive Deng who preferred not to discuss in order to have Japan firmly on China's side against China's "comrades" in Moscow, then you should forget your grievance. Otherwise, hang Mao effigy upside down in Tiananmen, take to the streets and ask the CCP to declare null the Friendship and Peace Treaty between China and Japan. Give back BTW all the aid you have received from Japan since 1972. Justice and Righteousness go together.
回复Sc Lai
我们都明白，中国在野蛮的日本帝国主义铁蹄下所经历的苦难。菲律宾、越南、缅甸。。同样如此。同样也明白，你的国家需要日本做出一些“姿态”以放下过去。但是，你的人民在二三十年以前，有过几次这样的机会。当日本认输的时候，你可以拿回任何你想要的东西。俄罗斯人甚至都得到了他们想要的，尽管他们没有经历过中国遭受的那些苦难，且在广岛事件发生后两天才参战。
现在，如果你有着像在波茨坦公告中以及当中华民国在联合国代表中国时，屁都没放一个的大元帅一样的“伟大领袖”，如果你有着像田中说“你不需要道歉。。。没有日本帝国主义军队，我们今天不可能掌权”的伟大的毛，比如像在莫斯科，为了在对抗中国的“同志们”的时候，争取日本站在中国这一边，而不愿意讨论这个问题的身材矮小的邓，那么你应该忘记你的委屈。否则，将天安门的毛浙东肖像倒挂起来，走上街头，要求GCD宣布，中国与日本之间，没有什么和平友好协议。顺便说一句，还要归还你们从1972年以来，从日本接受的援助。既公平又公义。
。
Sc Lai January 30, 2013 at 12:25 am
@nirvana,first of all China is not my country, and I am not even pro China,I am merely against injustice and double standards.If what you said is true that both ROC and PRC leaders had 20 to 30 years to dispute but did nothing about it,that doesn't mean the current leaders cannot and should not do anything now.Because the Potsdam Declaration, unlike any civil suits,has no expiry date. Seriously thinking, there should be an review of the clauses, to see if there is any non compliance, and any shortcoming / lop-hole should be plugged. Japan is a very dangerous and cunning nation,it should not be allowed to break the leash anymore, lest we have no chance to shed a tear because the retaliation will surly be fierce and extremely deadly.
回复nirvana
首先，中国不是我的祖国，并且我都不亲中。我只是反对不公平和双重标准。如果你说的一切都是真的，中华民国和中华人民共和国的领导人有二三十年的时间去争论却什么都没做，这不意味着现任的领导人，现在不能或不应该采取行动。因为《波茨坦宣言》不像任何民事诉讼，它是没有期限的。认真想想，应该需要一个审核条款，去看看是否有任何不服从的情况，或者有任何的短处或漏洞需要堵起。日本是一个非常危险且狡猾的国家，它不应该被允许打破束缚，以免我们没有机会流下泪水，因为（日本的）报复将会是异常激烈和致命的。
Babeouf January 28, 2013 at 3:53 am
Captain America surely some mistake here. In the 11th century European states launched a crusade with the ultimate object of capturing Jerusalem.These European armies couldproperly speaking be called invaders. By contrast the arab armies were not invaders. They were armies attacking the armies of Israel. A state whose creation and existence was as a direct consequence of the policies of European states and one excolony of a European state (the USA). As everybody knows Israel's fate is tied to the fate of the USA.USA, USA , number 1 but only until l about 2017 when China becomes officially theworlds largesteconomy. While the unofficial US policy appears to beone of managed decline the regime in Israel hasn't yet considered what this will mean for them.
Captain America在这儿明显犯了些错误。11世纪的欧洲国家发起了一场终极目标是占领耶路撒冷的十字军东征。这些欧洲军队恰当的说，就是入侵者。相比之下，阿拉伯的军队不是入侵者。他们的军队攻击以色列的军队。有那么一个国家，它的产生及存在完全是这些欧洲国家政策的一个直接后果，并且是一个欧洲国家的前殖民地（美国）。谁都知道，以色列的命运是与美国的命运紧紧绑在一起的。美国，世界第一，但是第一的位置仅能维持到2017年，当中国正式变成世界第一大经济体时。而美国的非官方政策似乎成为一个在以色列政权管理的下降，还没有考虑，这对他们来说意味着什么。
）
Kim’s Uncle January 29, 2013 at 3:07 pm
Wow so many posts by John chan, anon and other paranoid schizoids from mainland China!!! I’m glad chairman Mao’s teachings are still alive!! I have never come into contact with china’s crazy red guards but hearing the posts that animate from your mouths only reinforce the need for Western democracies to stay strong and vigilant because we surely do not to live in such cesspool like your country. Btw, modern Japan is a democracy that has been at peace with her neighbors for 50 years! I do not hold modern Japan responsible for the sins of her militaristic past! She has earn my respect and trust. If one day china becomes civilized and cultured, then we will respect china as a responsible country. But based on the crazy talk from John chan, be way, anon and other wu Mao red guards, I can say that china is as mature as North Korea. Btw how about those ultra modern Russian subs like the Kursk that sank and needed help from Western navies? LOL
哇哦，这么多由John Chan以及Anon和其他来自中国大陆的偏执分裂狂留的言啊！！！我很高兴毛泽东的教导还起着作用！！我从来没有接触过中国的疯狂的红卫兵，但从你们嘴里听到的这些生动的故事，只会加强西方民主保持强大和警惕的需要，因为我们必须确保，不要生活在像你们的国家那样的粪坑里。顺便说一句，现代日本是一个与邻国和平相处了五十年的民主国家！我不认为现在的日本需要为过去的军国主义负责！她已经获得了我的尊重和信任。如果有一天，中国变成文明和有文化，那么我们将把中国当成一个负责任的国家那样尊重。但是基于John Chan、Anon和其他毛泽东的红卫兵们的疯狂言论，我只能说中国跟北朝鲜一样不成熟（译注：原文是否少了个NOT？）。顺便说一下，你如何看待那些超现代的俄罗斯潜艇比如像沉没的库尔斯克号，需要来自西方海军的帮助的呢？哈哈
哈
Babeouf January 29, 2013 at 10:54 pm
Having re read some of these comments I see there is a lot of anti Russian stuff to the effect that the Russian military has disintegrated. Well then after the US military created the modern Georgian armed forces and let them loose on Russia troops they should have joined in when their proxy forces were threatened with defeat. What could they loose? Well according to every other open source everything. Russian nuclear weapon delivery systems are tested every year normally several times. And if the US military launch a conventional strike on Russian soldiers they are likely to respond with tactical nukes or ICBM's. For the Russian military nukes are essential conventional forces optional. All modern conventional forces will provide for the Russian military is an option that doesn't automatically trigger a nuclear exchange. As for the blue water no brain stuff. In the Second World War aircraft carriers showed that the day of the Battle Ship was over. In the next major conflict hypersonic missiles launched by bombers will show that the day of the aircraft carrier is over. And I certainly wouldn't want to be sitting on one of these floating bulls eyes. Appearing on satellites, homed on by missiles, sinking into history.
我又重新读了一些评论，我发现很多反俄罗斯的家伙，试图制造俄罗斯军队已经瓦解的影响。那么用美国武器武装下的现代格鲁吉亚武装部队，并让他们对抗俄罗斯军队。当他们的代理人遭受到战败的威胁时，美国佬应该加入这场战斗。为什么他们松开了（格鲁吉亚）？可参考已经公开的消息源中的每一条。俄罗斯的核武器发射系统，通常每年要进行几次测试。如果美国军方对俄罗斯士兵发动一次常规攻击，他们可能得到战术核武器或者洲际弹道导弹的带来的回应。因为俄罗斯军事核武器是常规部队必备项。所有的现代常规部队都为俄罗斯军队提供了一个选择项，那就是不能自动触发核武器交换。至于（炫耀）远洋（舰队），那是没脑子的东西。（译注：呃，自己补充的，大家看看原句吧。）二战中，航母的出现，显示出战舰的日子到头了。接下来，由轰炸机发射的高超音速导弹所带来的挑战，将显示出航母的日子也到头了。我确定我可不愿意坐在这些船上面，被卫星抓到，被导弹瞄准，然后沉入历史中。
Nirvana January 29, 2013 at 9:59 pm
@sc Lai,
We all understand how Chinese suffered the barbarity of Imperial Japan. So did Filipinos, Vietnamese, Burmese… It is also understood that your nation need a "gesture" from Japan to close the chapter. BUT, your people had that opportunity several times 20-30 years ago. When Japan capitulated, you could reclaim whatever you want. The Russians even got what they wanted although they did not suffer as much as China and really took part in the war only 2 days after Hiroshima.
Now, if you have "great leaders" such as the Generalissimo who said nothing about Daioyu in Postdam, and nothing during the time the ROC represented your people at the UN, If you have the great Mao who said to Tanaka "You should not apologize…. Without Imperial Army we would not be in power today", such as the diminutive Deng who preferred not to discuss in order to have Japan firmly on China's side against China's "comrades" in Moscow, then you should forget your grievance. Otherwise, hang Mao effigy upside down in Tiananmen, take to the streets and ask the CCP to declare null the Friendship and Peace Treaty between China and Japan. Give back BTW all the aid you have received from Japan since 1972. Justice and Righteousness go together.
回复Sc Lai
我们都明白，中国在野蛮的日本帝国主义铁蹄下所经历的苦难。菲律宾、越南、缅甸。。同样如此。同样也明白，你的国家需要日本做出一些“姿态”以放下过去。但是，你的人民在二三十年以前，有过几次这样的机会。当日本认输的时候，你可以拿回任何你想要的东西。俄罗斯人甚至都得到了他们想要的，尽管他们没有经历过中国遭受的那些苦难，且在广岛事件发生后两天才参战。
现在，如果你有着像在波茨坦公告中以及当中华民国在联合国代表中国时，屁都没放一个的大元帅一样的“伟大领袖”，如果你有着像田中说“你不需要道歉。。。没有日本帝国主义军队，我们今天不可能掌权”的伟大的毛，比如像在莫斯科，为了在对抗中国的“同志们”的时候，争取日本站在中国这一边，而不愿意讨论这个问题的身材矮小的邓，那么你应该忘记你的委屈。否则，将天安门的毛浙东肖像倒挂起来，走上街头，要求GCD宣布，中国与日本之间，没有什么和平友好协议。顺便说一句，还要归还你们从1972年以来，从日本接受的援助。既公平又公义。
。
Sc Lai January 30, 2013 at 12:25 am
@nirvana,first of all China is not my country, and I am not even pro China,I am merely against injustice and double standards.If what you said is true that both ROC and PRC leaders had 20 to 30 years to dispute but did nothing about it,that doesn't mean the current leaders cannot and should not do anything now.Because the Potsdam Declaration, unlike any civil suits,has no expiry date. Seriously thinking, there should be an review of the clauses, to see if there is any non compliance, and any shortcoming / lop-hole should be plugged. Japan is a very dangerous and cunning nation,it should not be allowed to break the leash anymore, lest we have no chance to shed a tear because the retaliation will surly be fierce and extremely deadly.
回复nirvana
首先，中国不是我的祖国，并且我都不亲中。我只是反对不公平和双重标准。如果你说的一切都是真的，中华民国和中华人民共和国的领导人有二三十年的时间去争论却什么都没做，这不意味着现任的领导人，现在不能或不应该采取行动。因为《波茨坦宣言》不像任何民事诉讼，它是没有期限的。认真想想，应该需要一个审核条款，去看看是否有任何不服从的情况，或者有任何的短处或漏洞需要堵起。日本是一个非常危险且狡猾的国家，它不应该被允许打破束缚，以免我们没有机会流下泪水，因为（日本的）报复将会是异常激烈和致命的。
Babeouf January 28, 2013 at 3:53 am
Captain America surely some mistake here. In the 11th century European states launched a crusade with the ultimate object of capturing Jerusalem.These European armies couldproperly speaking be called invaders. By contrast the arab armies were not invaders. They were armies attacking the armies of Israel. A state whose creation and existence was as a direct consequence of the policies of European states and one excolony of a European state (the USA). As everybody knows Israel's fate is tied to the fate of the USA.USA, USA , number 1 but only until l about 2017 when China becomes officially theworlds largesteconomy. While the unofficial US policy appears to beone of managed decline the regime in Israel hasn't yet considered what this will mean for them.
Captain America在这儿明显犯了些错误。11世纪的欧洲国家发起了一场终极目标是占领耶路撒冷的十字军东征。这些欧洲军队恰当的说，就是入侵者。相比之下，阿拉伯的军队不是入侵者。他们的军队攻击以色列的军队。有那么一个国家，它的产生及存在完全是这些欧洲国家政策的一个直接后果，并且是一个欧洲国家的前殖民地（美国）。谁都知道，以色列的命运是与美国的命运紧紧绑在一起的。美国，世界第一，但是第一的位置仅能维持到2017年，当中国正式变成世界第一大经济体时。而美国的非官方政策似乎成为一个在以色列政权管理的下降，还没有考虑，这对他们来说意味着什么。
）
Kim’s Uncle January 29, 2013 at 3:07 pm
Wow so many posts by John chan, anon and other paranoid schizoids from mainland China!!! I’m glad chairman Mao’s teachings are still alive!! I have never come into contact with china’s crazy red guards but hearing the posts that animate from your mouths only reinforce the need for Western democracies to stay strong and vigilant because we surely do not to live in such cesspool like your country. Btw, modern Japan is a democracy that has been at peace with her neighbors for 50 years! I do not hold modern Japan responsible for the sins of her militaristic past! She has earn my respect and trust. If one day china becomes civilized and cultured, then we will respect china as a responsible country. But based on the crazy talk from John chan, be way, anon and other wu Mao red guards, I can say that china is as mature as North Korea. Btw how about those ultra modern Russian subs like the Kursk that sank and needed help from Western navies? LOL
哇哦，这么多由John Chan以及Anon和其他来自中国大陆的偏执分裂狂留的言啊！！！我很高兴毛泽东的教导还起着作用！！我从来没有接触过中国的疯狂的红卫兵，但从你们嘴里听到的这些生动的故事，只会加强西方民主保持强大和警惕的需要，因为我们必须确保，不要生活在像你们的国家那样的粪坑里。顺便说一句，现代日本是一个与邻国和平相处了五十年的民主国家！我不认为现在的日本需要为过去的军国主义负责！她已经获得了我的尊重和信任。如果有一天，中国变成文明和有文化，那么我们将把中国当成一个负责任的国家那样尊重。但是基于John Chan、Anon和其他毛泽东的红卫兵们的疯狂言论，我只能说中国跟北朝鲜一样不成熟（译注：原文是否少了个NOT？）。顺便说一下，你如何看待那些超现代的俄罗斯潜艇比如像沉没的库尔斯克号，需要来自西方海军的帮助的呢？哈哈
哈
Babeouf January 29, 2013 at 10:54 pm
Having re read some of these comments I see there is a lot of anti Russian stuff to the effect that the Russian military has disintegrated. Well then after the US military created the modern Georgian armed forces and let them loose on Russia troops they should have joined in when their proxy forces were threatened with defeat. What could they loose? Well according to every other open source everything. Russian nuclear weapon delivery systems are tested every year normally several times. And if the US military launch a conventional strike on Russian soldiers they are likely to respond with tactical nukes or ICBM's. For the Russian military nukes are essential conventional forces optional. All modern conventional forces will provide for the Russian military is an option that doesn't automatically trigger a nuclear exchange. As for the blue water no brain stuff. In the Second World War aircraft carriers showed that the day of the Battle Ship was over. In the next major conflict hypersonic missiles launched by bombers will show that the day of the aircraft carrier is over. And I certainly wouldn't want to be sitting on one of these floating bulls eyes. Appearing on satellites, homed on by missiles, sinking into history.
我又重新读了一些评论，我发现很多反俄罗斯的家伙，试图制造俄罗斯军队已经瓦解的影响。那么用美国武器武装下的现代格鲁吉亚武装部队，并让他们对抗俄罗斯军队。当他们的代理人遭受到战败的威胁时，美国佬应该加入这场战斗。为什么他们松开了（格鲁吉亚）？可参考已经公开的消息源中的每一条。俄罗斯的核武器发射系统，通常每年要进行几次测试。如果美国军方对俄罗斯士兵发动一次常规攻击，他们可能得到战术核武器或者洲际弹道导弹的带来的回应。因为俄罗斯军事核武器是常规部队必备项。所有的现代常规部队都为俄罗斯军队提供了一个选择项，那就是不能自动触发核武器交换。至于（炫耀）远洋（舰队），那是没脑子的东西。（译注：呃，自己补充的，大家看看原句吧。）二战中，航母的出现，显示出战舰的日子到头了。接下来，由轰炸机发射的高超音速导弹所带来的挑战，将显示出航母的日子也到头了。我确定我可不愿意坐在这些船上面，被卫星抓到，被导弹瞄准，然后沉入历史中。
泥马，我怎马搅得这个论坛的水平比CD要高一截，不管观点如何，人家都是言之有物啊~~
嘴炮的加强版而已
嘴炮的加强版而已
挺有趣的文章，原来森喜朗是想要3个岛……
认为兔子更容易欺负一些
Babeouf January 25, 2013 at 6:09 am
Japan now faces the unpleasant prospect of a 'war on two fronts'. It has a territorial dispute with its largest neighbor China which may heat up to boiling point at any time (deliberately or through miscalculation). And a dormant territorial dispute with Russia which may can still erupt into a confrontation. To paraphrase Mao behind all the legal niceties existing between states lurk the cannons. Japanese policy makes potential enemies of both China and Russia. Not exactly divide and conquer.. Not exactly smart.
日本目前面临最让人不安的“两线作战”的前景。它与随时可能爆发（蓄意或者由于误判）的最大的邻国—中国，有着领土纷争。以及与俄罗斯之间的一场随时可能引发冲突的休眠了的领土纷争。套用毛的话说——在所有法律条令背后，国与国之间都存在着潜在的大炮（译注：译者不才，也不知道原话是哪句）。日本的政策使得中国和俄罗斯都成为其潜在的敌人。不全是分而治之，不全是灵巧。
all the legal niceties existing between states lurk the cannons.
有效的法律需要大炮的背书。（真理在大炮的射程范围内）？
原话是俾斯麦说的。
这种自创式的引用名人名言确实不好翻译。
Japan now faces the unpleasant prospect of a 'war on two fronts'. It has a territorial dispute with its largest neighbor China which may heat up to boiling point at any time (deliberately or through miscalculation). And a dormant territorial dispute with Russia which may can still erupt into a confrontation. To paraphrase Mao behind all the legal niceties existing between states lurk the cannons. Japanese policy makes potential enemies of both China and Russia. Not exactly divide and conquer.. Not exactly smart.
日本目前面临最让人不安的“两线作战”的前景。它与随时可能爆发（蓄意或者由于误判）的最大的邻国—中国，有着领土纷争。以及与俄罗斯之间的一场随时可能引发冲突的休眠了的领土纷争。套用毛的话说——在所有法律条令背后，国与国之间都存在着潜在的大炮（译注：译者不才，也不知道原话是哪句）。日本的政策使得中国和俄罗斯都成为其潜在的敌人。不全是分而治之，不全是灵巧。
all the legal niceties existing between states lurk the cannons.
有效的法律需要大炮的背书。（真理在大炮的射程范围内）？
原话是俾斯麦说的。
这种自创式的引用名人名言确实不好翻译。
对于俄罗斯有关日本承认俄罗斯对这些岛屿的主权的声明，日本方面表达强烈否认。
======================================================
这就是否认二战战败，是对正义反侵略胜利者们的公然否定，
是对法西斯联盟发动战争给世界造成灾难 为侵略及战争罪行翻案。
不是一个简单领土主权问题，是意图以索取领土主权而颠覆整个二战意义的不轨图谋。
如果有那个美国脑残认为倭人主张是合理的，那就是对为反法西斯而牺牲的 美国先辈英灵们的亵渎。
对于俄罗斯有关日本承认俄罗斯对这些岛屿的主权的声明，日本方面表达强烈否认。
======================================================
这就是否认二战战败，是对正义反侵略胜利者们的公然否定，
是对法西斯联盟发动战争给世界造成灾难 为侵略及战争罪行翻案。
不是一个简单领土主权问题，是意图以索取领土主权而颠覆整个二战意义的不轨图谋。
如果有那个美国脑残认为倭人主张是合理的，那就是对为反法西斯而牺牲的 美国先辈英灵们的亵渎。
一到说日俄就难免牵扯到TG,而黑TG的一大堆,而有些回复中也能看到那些美蓄很看不起俄国,我想,这也没有错,一个为了个人的私欲而打着民主自由确分裂了自己国家的人,又怎么使这个国家被人所尊重!TG还不够强大,还需努力,让那些白 皮垃圾继续抹黑吧,毕竟又不是一两天了,在说多几年也无妨!
觉得他们水平不错啊。能了解到挺多内容
nbyqhy069 发表于 2013-2-23 22:56
泥马，我怎马搅得这个论坛的水平比CD要高一截，不管观点如何，人家都是言之有物啊~~
也不知 您是怎么看的？ 其中方的反击发言真TM给力，依据和说服力 都是杠杠的。
也就是说，您认为要高一截的 是个中国人（或持中国立场的），也许就是CD的某位， 嘻嘻 ！
泥马，我怎马搅得这个论坛的水平比CD要高一截，不管观点如何，人家都是言之有物啊~~
也不知 您是怎么看的？ 其中方的反击发言真TM给力，依据和说服力 都是杠杠的。
也就是说，您认为要高一截的 是个中国人（或持中国立场的），也许就是CD的某位， 嘻嘻 ！
中方的发言者 太特么给力了。
不错，不错，不管是嘴炮还是空谈，还算是很真实的了解来别人对我们及整个东亚局势的看法和观点，虽不是很赞同部分观点，但至少非常务实，这一点和国内军坛动不动就先扣帽子来的实在多了
坐等本子被战略巡航
国外反华势力的水平不低啊！！！国内高水平的在哪里，需要你们的时候到了
坐等本子被战略巡航
“熊”的保留节目就是围着AV转圈圈
“熊”的保留节目就是围着AV转圈圈
这些货真是闲的蛋疼
扯什么法律啊、条约啊，有啥用？
土地从来都是能者居之
所谓 千年土地八百主,地是主人人是客
美洲的原住民印第安人被白人杀光了，白人就认为美洲理所当然是他们的
其实也不过占了200多年嘛，以后是谁的真不好说
扯什么法律啊、条约啊，有啥用？
土地从来都是能者居之
所谓 千年土地八百主,地是主人人是客
美洲的原住民印第安人被白人杀光了，白人就认为美洲理所当然是他们的
其实也不过占了200多年嘛，以后是谁的真不好说
在不能发动战争取走土地的时候，嘴炮舆论是必须有的，在这条舆论战线上中国在外面输得太惨了。泥轰在战后这几十年的时间里在世界上给自己树立了一个良好形象，即使跟那些白人说泥轰改历史教科书他们也会说你被洗脑被ZF骗了。
自大的白皮猪们对太祖的恐惧很深啊。。道不同不相为谋，别说那反中俄的白皮们了就是冷静党们仅仅是在道义方面指出双重标准之类的，要是在国内就了不得了带路党什么的早喷的不像样了。。。