印度专家呼吁立刻中止MMRCA项目,转向采购F-35

来源:百度文库 编辑:超级军网 时间:2024/05/02 16:14:39


大意是最快2015年能从欧洲获得首批双风,2020年J-20批量服役后,MMRCA只装备5年就过时了。
MMRCA预期的批量服役时间为2020-2050年,所以双风的性能是不可接受的。

亚洲除了中国即将装备J-20外,日本、韩国、新加坡等都要采购F-35战斗机,印度的双风会显得灰头土脸。

英国、德国、意大利最近都在削减台风的采购数量(英国意大利裁减台风数量的同时,在采购F-35)。F-35飞离成本不高....

印度国防部采购过时机型并不明智,应立刻将F-35作为唯一选择,与美国协商政府间采购,而不要搞什么竞标。

End this MMRCA hara-kiri

Knife-edge tension is guaranteed as senior executives from Eurofighter GmbH and Dassault assemble on Friday in the office of Vivek Rae, Director General (Acquisitions) of the Ministry of Defence (MoD). The purpose of the gathering: to open commercial bids for the world’s most ill-conceived and biggest international arms purchase. I refer to the Indian Air Force’s harebrained proposal to buy 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) that will be outrun and outgunned by Chinese fighters soon after they enter Indian Air Force (IAF) service.

The opening of bids in any big contract is a tense moment. Eurofighter’s and Dassault’s inordinate anxiety also stems from the fact that the IAF buy is crucial to their future. Eurofighter GmbH faces serious internal problems with partner nations scaling down their orders. India is desperately needed to restore the economics of production. Britain’s Royal Air Force has already slashed its order for Typhoons. And, last week, The New York Times reported that Germany’s Luftwaffe (which ironically spearheads the Typhoon campaign in India) is trimming its purchase from 177 to 140 Typhoons. Dassault is in even direr straits, with Rafale having failed to find a single international customer; there are just 180 Rafale fighters on order, all for the French military, which hardly has a choice.

The only relatively carefree man at the start of that meeting on Friday might be Mr Rae himself, who will be sitting on the defence ministry’s war chest of Rs 42,000 crore. But his good cheer may not survive the opening of bids because the MoD’s estimate – arrived at some six years ago – will almost certainly be dwarfed by the lower bid. Last month the MoD revalued its original estimation in a process called “benchmarking”. But Mr Rae knows that if the winning quote emerges significantly more expensive than the MoD’s “benchmarked” figure, the process will begin anew.

Such an eventuality would be a blessing in disguise; and the best way to sidestep this cockamamie purchase of overpriced fighters that will take heavy casualties in any future conflict with China. Both the Typhoon and Rafale are “4th Generation-plus fighters”, inferior in crucial aspects like stealth to the J-20, China’s “5th Generation” (Gen-5) stealth fighter that took to the skies this year. Admittedly the J-20 would need a decade of flight-testing before it enters operational service, but the first MMRCA would only be delivered to India by 2015-16. Five years after that, operational J-20s, of the People’s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF), will be dominating the Himalayas. The IAF MMRCAs, already outclassed by 2020, will limp around the skies till 2050 since the MoD will rightly protest that Rs 42,000-84,000 crore have been spent on them.

The IAF sadly is shutting its eyes to this even as China’s rising aerospace profile informs the security calculus of other regional air forces. Japan, South Korea and Singapore are realising that a Gen-5 fleet is needed for a credible defence capability against the PLA. South Korea is set to choose Lockheed Martin’s F-35 Lightening II, the only Gen-5 fighter on offer in the global market. The Japan Air Self Defence Force (JASDF) too is veering around to the F-35 after Lockheed Martin was denied export clearances to supply Tokyo the F-22 Raptor, unarguably the world’s most advanced fighter. In 2003, Singapore invested money into the F-35 development programme; it is on course to buy the aircraft.



Given that a rising China makes choosing Gen-5 a no-brainer, why then is the IAF (presumably a rational actor) inexplicably buying Gen-4+ fighters? The reason, sadly, is the political-bureaucratic stranglehold over procurement in which any IAF re-evaluation carries a penalty of years of delay. In the early 2000s, when the IAF framed the case for buying an MMRCA, no Gen-5 aircraft were available for sale. The F-35 was under development but was not ready for flight-testing, an essential part of India’s procurement process. Unwilling to wait for a Gen-5 fighter, the IAF scaled down its requirements and initiated an impartial multi-vendor contest for whatever Gen-4+ fighters were there in the market.

Years later, as the IAF finds itself choosing between two Gen-4+ aircraft, it must also note that the F-35 is on the cusp of operational clearance. It’s manufacturer, Lockheed Martin, has signalled in multiple ways that it would supply the IAF that fighter at a fly-away cost of $65 million per aircraft (significantly cheaper than the Rafale and the Typhoon) with deliveries beginning by 2015. Washington has indicated that any F-35 sale to India would be expeditiously cleared. But for an insecure IAF, used to being shoved around by the MoD, a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. The MMRCA purchase would bring in six squadrons of reasonably good fighters, even if they were outclassed by the PLAAF in war. Any change at this state, or so the IAF believes and accepts, would require fresh MoD clearances and financial sanctions that could take another three years.

But there is an alternative. The IAF must frankly tell the MoD that the situation has changed, and that national security demands scrapping the overpriced MMRCA procurement and buying the F-35 through a single-vendor contract. The defence of the realm cannot be held hostage to the procedural requirement of multi-vendor bidding; nor is overpaying justifiable if it was done through competitive bidding. New Delhi has recently procured several fine aircraft on a single-vendor, government-to-government basis: the Sukhoi-30MKI from Russia; and the C-130J and C-17 transport aircraft from the US. The procurement of a new fighter that will form the backbone of the IAF for decades must be treated with the same urgency.

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2 ... mrca-hara-kiri.html

大意是最快2015年能从欧洲获得首批双风,2020年J-20批量服役后,MMRCA只装备5年就过时了。
MMRCA预期的批量服役时间为2020-2050年,所以双风的性能是不可接受的。

亚洲除了中国即将装备J-20外,日本、韩国、新加坡等都要采购F-35战斗机,印度的双风会显得灰头土脸。

英国、德国、意大利最近都在削减台风的采购数量(英国意大利裁减台风数量的同时,在采购F-35)。F-35飞离成本不高....

印度国防部采购过时机型并不明智,应立刻将F-35作为唯一选择,与美国协商政府间采购,而不要搞什么竞标。

End this MMRCA hara-kiri

Knife-edge tension is guaranteed as senior executives from Eurofighter GmbH and Dassault assemble on Friday in the office of Vivek Rae, Director General (Acquisitions) of the Ministry of Defence (MoD). The purpose of the gathering: to open commercial bids for the world’s most ill-conceived and biggest international arms purchase. I refer to the Indian Air Force’s harebrained proposal to buy 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) that will be outrun and outgunned by Chinese fighters soon after they enter Indian Air Force (IAF) service.

The opening of bids in any big contract is a tense moment. Eurofighter’s and Dassault’s inordinate anxiety also stems from the fact that the IAF buy is crucial to their future. Eurofighter GmbH faces serious internal problems with partner nations scaling down their orders. India is desperately needed to restore the economics of production. Britain’s Royal Air Force has already slashed its order for Typhoons. And, last week, The New York Times reported that Germany’s Luftwaffe (which ironically spearheads the Typhoon campaign in India) is trimming its purchase from 177 to 140 Typhoons. Dassault is in even direr straits, with Rafale having failed to find a single international customer; there are just 180 Rafale fighters on order, all for the French military, which hardly has a choice.

The only relatively carefree man at the start of that meeting on Friday might be Mr Rae himself, who will be sitting on the defence ministry’s war chest of Rs 42,000 crore. But his good cheer may not survive the opening of bids because the MoD’s estimate – arrived at some six years ago – will almost certainly be dwarfed by the lower bid. Last month the MoD revalued its original estimation in a process called “benchmarking”. But Mr Rae knows that if the winning quote emerges significantly more expensive than the MoD’s “benchmarked” figure, the process will begin anew.

Such an eventuality would be a blessing in disguise; and the best way to sidestep this cockamamie purchase of overpriced fighters that will take heavy casualties in any future conflict with China. Both the Typhoon and Rafale are “4th Generation-plus fighters”, inferior in crucial aspects like stealth to the J-20, China’s “5th Generation” (Gen-5) stealth fighter that took to the skies this year. Admittedly the J-20 would need a decade of flight-testing before it enters operational service, but the first MMRCA would only be delivered to India by 2015-16. Five years after that, operational J-20s, of the People’s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF), will be dominating the Himalayas. The IAF MMRCAs, already outclassed by 2020, will limp around the skies till 2050 since the MoD will rightly protest that Rs 42,000-84,000 crore have been spent on them.

The IAF sadly is shutting its eyes to this even as China’s rising aerospace profile informs the security calculus of other regional air forces. Japan, South Korea and Singapore are realising that a Gen-5 fleet is needed for a credible defence capability against the PLA. South Korea is set to choose Lockheed Martin’s F-35 Lightening II, the only Gen-5 fighter on offer in the global market. The Japan Air Self Defence Force (JASDF) too is veering around to the F-35 after Lockheed Martin was denied export clearances to supply Tokyo the F-22 Raptor, unarguably the world’s most advanced fighter. In 2003, Singapore invested money into the F-35 development programme; it is on course to buy the aircraft.



Given that a rising China makes choosing Gen-5 a no-brainer, why then is the IAF (presumably a rational actor) inexplicably buying Gen-4+ fighters? The reason, sadly, is the political-bureaucratic stranglehold over procurement in which any IAF re-evaluation carries a penalty of years of delay. In the early 2000s, when the IAF framed the case for buying an MMRCA, no Gen-5 aircraft were available for sale. The F-35 was under development but was not ready for flight-testing, an essential part of India’s procurement process. Unwilling to wait for a Gen-5 fighter, the IAF scaled down its requirements and initiated an impartial multi-vendor contest for whatever Gen-4+ fighters were there in the market.

Years later, as the IAF finds itself choosing between two Gen-4+ aircraft, it must also note that the F-35 is on the cusp of operational clearance. It’s manufacturer, Lockheed Martin, has signalled in multiple ways that it would supply the IAF that fighter at a fly-away cost of $65 million per aircraft (significantly cheaper than the Rafale and the Typhoon) with deliveries beginning by 2015. Washington has indicated that any F-35 sale to India would be expeditiously cleared. But for an insecure IAF, used to being shoved around by the MoD, a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. The MMRCA purchase would bring in six squadrons of reasonably good fighters, even if they were outclassed by the PLAAF in war. Any change at this state, or so the IAF believes and accepts, would require fresh MoD clearances and financial sanctions that could take another three years.

But there is an alternative. The IAF must frankly tell the MoD that the situation has changed, and that national security demands scrapping the overpriced MMRCA procurement and buying the F-35 through a single-vendor contract. The defence of the realm cannot be held hostage to the procedural requirement of multi-vendor bidding; nor is overpaying justifiable if it was done through competitive bidding. New Delhi has recently procured several fine aircraft on a single-vendor, government-to-government basis: the Sukhoi-30MKI from Russia; and the C-130J and C-17 transport aircraft from the US. The procurement of a new fighter that will form the backbone of the IAF for decades must be treated with the same urgency.

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2 ... mrca-hara-kiri.html
买肥电吧
fly-away cost of $65 million per aircraft
without engine
阿三不差钱,到时再买好了
印度人啊!啥也不说了!
要是这样,会动了很多人的,回扣的
三哥也有三哥的烦恼
看嘛,马上把FGFA抛到脑后去了,让毛子情何以堪啊
钓鱼工程。
A3这个美元党不怕被欧元党和卢布党亲死,乃鄙视双峰就算了,乃把FGFA置于何地?
这个...直接无视T50
毛子还是先把T-50整利索,中型机这块暂时指望不上了。
印度应该买F35,为什么,欧洲人都准备用F35了,作为英联邦国家你没有F35你都没脸和别人打招呼。
这对中国是好事,就F35轮到印度采购的时候,都2030年了。
这200亿还是买肥电核算,就算现在拿不到,等拿到肥电的时候说不定那个FAGA还不知道在哪了,MCA还在模型阶段


T50被无视
还是按三锅一贯的收藏原则为妙,就没有选项太多的烦恼,

T50被无视
还是按三锅一贯的收藏原则为妙,就没有选项太多的烦恼,
印度人认为J-20要到2020年才能装备?

LCA花了10多年试飞还未能装备,以为J-20也一样?
这么个大国,不能自己造飞机还确实挺悲哀的。
matrix2388 发表于 2011-11-6 15:32
印度应该买F35,为什么,欧洲人都准备用F35了,作为英联邦国家你没有F35你都没脸和别人打招呼。
这对中国是 ...
有道理,年产量就那么多,先得济MD自己和铁杆盟友,等轮到三哥不定哪一年了
我看还是先坐等这个多嘴的专家悲剧了。
看来MD在超虫和石榴标子失败后,终于明白三锅的规矩了,不给三锅管事滴回扣肿马行。就是不知道这位三锅砖家收了md多少银子啊,这么卖力
奇多圈 发表于 2011-11-6 15:30
看嘛,马上把FGFA抛到脑后去了,让毛子情何以堪啊
他敢抛弃毛子,格尔斯科夫航母必然会无限期推迟交付
三锅么  地球上的人都知道有钱  没事 多买点
shishan 发表于 2011-11-6 16:03
他敢抛弃毛子,格尔斯科夫航母必然会无限期推迟交付
美国要淘汰一艘旧航母现在,小鹰号也闲着,心情好给印度2艘二手航母都没问题。

戈舰印度已付的那点钱还不够MMRCA的零头,无所谓了。
官僚决策哪里这么干脆……
有道理!
这砖家根本就是个MD的买办吧?
shishan 发表于 2011-11-6 16:03
他敢抛弃毛子,格尔斯科夫航母必然会无限期推迟交付
恩,fgfa,台风/阵风,mki,苏35,这后勤
哈瓦隆 发表于 2011-11-6 16:10
美国要淘汰一艘旧航母现在,小鹰号也闲着,心情好给印度2艘二手航母都没问题。

戈舰印度已付的 ...
呵呵,问题不是你写的这么简单,毛子和印度多少年的军备合作关系,其中的千丝万缕的联系,岂能拿一两件武器就能说明白的,举个极端的情形,如果毛子完全断绝和印度的军备合作,估计印度的国防维持能力就得瘫掉百分之五十,数据我自己瞎说的,我只想表明这种厉害关系,印度要想抛弃毛子,也是一步步,一点点的抛弃,不会嘎笔一刀切的中断,否则吃亏的必然是印度,
奇多圈 发表于 2011-11-6 16:39
恩,fgfa,台风/阵风,mki,苏35,这后勤
还有米格29舰载型,布拉莫斯巡弋飞弹,4000吨级的护卫舰,核潜艇租赁,T-90坦克,毛子捏印度的手指多得很
回扣内战?
shishan 发表于 2011-11-6 16:41
呵呵,问题不是你写的这么简单,毛子和印度多少年的军备合作关系,其中的千丝万缕的联系,岂能拿一两件武 ...
力的作用是相互的,印度放弃T-50,毛子就要跟印度彻底决裂吗?印度已经弃掉了米格-35、米-28等不少东西了。

这些年,俄罗斯的军工很大程度上靠印度维持。现在更多是买方市场,而不是卖方市场。

俄罗斯要因为一个项目与印度翻脸,承受不了的不一定是印度,让印度彻底倒向欧美对俄罗斯不是什么好事。
T-50说:Y,你个吃里扒外的东西。


T-50:最近要加紧试飞,加紧定型,加把力气飞到印度。

不然就被F-35那个胖子把生意抢走了。想象一下,F-35而不是T-50先在印度航展上进行飞行表演的情景。

毛子现在的武器项目,少有T-50这么赶进度的,压力大啊。

T-50:最近要加紧试飞,加紧定型,加把力气飞到印度。

不然就被F-35那个胖子把生意抢走了。想象一下,F-35而不是T-50先在印度航展上进行飞行表演的情景。

毛子现在的武器项目,少有T-50这么赶进度的,压力大啊。
回扣大决战,美元党,欧元党,卢布党
有眼光{:soso_e179:}
哈瓦隆 发表于 2011-11-6 17:28
T-50:最近要加紧试飞,加紧定型,加把力气飞到印度。

不然就被F-35那个胖子把生意抢走了。想象一下,F- ...
F-35在国际航展上飞过没有?


印度应该停止一切招标,静下心来整理一下空军的准备思路;
哪里能够见啥要啥?

看不起“双凤”?
给印度啃30年,能够吃透还算悟性高!

印度应该停止一切招标,静下心来整理一下空军的准备思路;
哪里能够见啥要啥?

看不起“双凤”?
给印度啃30年,能够吃透还算悟性高!
兩年后又說應中止F35項目釆購F22
尼玛跟有些人高考填志愿一样,又想报清华,又想报北大,接着港大来招生了,又觉得还是上港大号
shishan 发表于 2011-11-6 16:41
呵呵,问题不是你写的这么简单,毛子和印度多少年的军备合作关系,其中的千丝万缕的联系,岂能拿一两件武 ...
50%可不止吧?印度从T-72坦克到苏-30MKI战斗机甚至海军一大票舰艇都是高度倚赖俄国配件的。