JY已经变成畜生了，竟然在国外关于南京大屠杀的贴子里指 ...

转自龙腾网

注意那个ID wenge

Just a question on this massacre
源地址：http://www.historum.com/asian-hi ... stion-massacre.html
译者：该用户已注册


1#（楼主）
mt774 （来自英国）

Speaking of Nanjin Massacre, Do you believe the historical accounts of this? or think that was exaggerated and did not happen is as worst way as we are told? Some Japanese really feel that exaggerated to make them look too bad in many ways...  

说到南京大屠杀，你相信它的史料记载吗？或者你认为那是夸大的，并没有我们说的以那么糟糕的形式发生过？一些日本人确实觉得（南京大屠杀）言过其实，想方设法使得他们看起来非常坏……
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2#
Kevinmeath （来自冰岛 ）



Horror in the East: Japan and the Atrocities of World War II (9780306811784): Laurence Rees: Books
This book seems good and after reading it, not only understand why they were so cruel but also its hard to underestimate how cruel they were.

颤栗东方：日本二战暴行(9780306811784): Laurence Rees著
这本书似乎挺好的，并且在读完之后，不仅仅了解他们为什么如此残暴而且难以低估他们残暴的程度。
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3#
sylla1（来自墨西哥 ）

Quote:
Originally Posted by mt774  
Speaking of Nanjin Massacre, Do you believe the historical accounts of this? or think that was exaggerated and did not happen is as worst way as we are told? Some Japanese really feel that exaggerated to make them look too bad in many ways...

This was a terrible colonial massacre by any standard.
Unsurprisingly, colonial powers have always tended to see the mote in somebody else's eye and not the beam in one's own.
(Just check out the bad press on the Belgian Congo or the Spanish American colonies).
Let just say that each colonial power had their own good share of skeletons in their closets.  

引用1#
以任何标准来看，这是一场可怕的殖民大屠杀。
不令人吃惊的，殖民国家总是倾向于看到别人眼里的小错，而不是自己的。（只要查看刚果或者美国拉丁美洲裔殖民地的负面报道）。我只能说每个殖民国家在他们的衣柜里有同样的骷髅堆。
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4#
diddyriddick（来自美国 ）

Regardless of the numbers involved, there was clearly a pattern of behavior in Nanjing. The Japanese can claim (perhaps correctly) that this does not reflect Japanese attitudes, but SOMEBODY above the individual soldiers has to be accountable. Tojo? Kwantung army commander Kenkichi Ueda?

不管涉及的数字多少，在南京的暴行是显而易见的。日本人可能声称（也许是正确的）那不能反映日本人的态度，但是在每个士兵之上的某些人是有责任的。东条英机？关东军指挥官植田谦吉？
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5#
bartieboy（来自荷兰 ）

Quote:
Originally Posted by mt774  
Speaking of Nanjin Massacre, Do you believe the historical accounts of this? or think that was exaggerated and did not happen is as worst way as we are told? Some Japanese really feel that exaggerated to make them look too bad in many ways...

I don't see the point in exaggerating this number, who were they trying to get on their side? Would you call somebody who has killed 150.000 people a bigger &$@@?- then somebody who killed 200.000 people?  

引用1#
我不明白数字夸大了的观点，他们试图站在他们那边？你们会称呼杀死15万人为大魔头？——那么杀死20万的人呢？

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6#
mt774（楼主，来自英国 ）

Well, some Japanese feel that China needed to exaggerate due to their need to portrait Japanese as barbarians. Maybe they only wanted to use those Chinese for medical experiment, as was normal at time -- and the most horrors of rape and so on were exploited by Chinese historians.  
   
好吧，一些日本人觉得由于他们把日本人描绘成野蛮人的需求，中国需要夸大史实。也许他们（指日本人）只是想用这些中国人来做医学实验，在那时太正常了——而且强奸等等惨状都是中国历史学家挖掘的。
     
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7#
Linschoten（来自美国）

"Maybe they only wanted to use those Chinese for medical experiment, as was normal at time" ??  

“也许他们只是想用这些中国人来做医学实验，在那时太正常了”？？
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8#
Naomasa298（来自英国）

I second Linschoten's sentiment, and would like to add... what the heck? "Normal"?
Do you think that makes it acceptable? How were "the horrors of rape" exploited? Isn't it horrific enough?
Enough documentary evidence exists of the horrific treatment of the Chinese at the hands of the Japanese.  

我支持Linschoten（楼上）的观点，而我想要加上一句……什么玩意儿？“正常”？
你认为那么做是可以接受的？“强奸的惨状”是怎么挖掘的？这还不够可怕？
在日本人手里有足够多的中国人被残忍对待的书面证明存在。  
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9#
DeliciousTomatoesYay （来自美国 ）

Quote:
Originally Posted by diddyriddick  
Regardless of the numbers involved, there was clearly a pattern of behavior in Nanjing. The Japanese can claim (perhaps correctly) that this does not reflect Japanese attitudes, but SOMEBODY above the individual soldiers has to be accountable. Tojo? Kwantung army commander Kenkichi Ueda?

This, I agree with!
If people still linger around and hate the Japanese because of the massacre it would be like hating modern day Germans because of the Nazis :O
I mean history should not be forgotten but also not linger in it xD
On Topic I believe it's real, maybe some very few of the extremely Chinese-hating people in Japan that holds power is preventing Japan from apologizing? It's what I hope to believe xD  

引用4#
这个，我同意！
如果人们由于大屠杀仍然逗留不去并憎恨日本人，这就像因为纳粹而憎恨今天的德国人。
我是说历史不会忘记但也不用徘徊不前XD
关于话题我认为（南京大屠杀）是真实的，可能在日本有极少数极度仇中的人极力阻挠日本道歉？这是我希望去相信的 XD
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10#
fangqingming（来自中国 ）

Quote:
Originally Posted by mt774  
Speaking of Nanjin Massacre, Do you believe the historical accounts of this? or think that was exaggerated and did not happen is as worst way as we are told? Some Japanese really feel that exaggerated to make them look too bad in many ways...

i suggest that you go to nanjing, then say these words and say massacre is nomal when you face to these victims's bones.
normal? what is that?
ps: The nanjing massacre museum， is one of a lot of massacre places, the open places only is 40 square , but be found 208 bones, above 120 bodies can be distinguished age, children bones are 32, old persons bones are 12, female bones are 20% in all 82 bones that can be
identify female or male. 6# bone is female bone, bone have japanese bayonet trace， 106# , 109#, 90#, 114# , all have Nails hurt trace.
whole nanjing massacre museum built on a huge bones pile, only around the place, there have about 28730 bones.
finally, i really want to say to those japanese who don't want to admit nanjing massacre, admitting ancestor's crimes , that is not shame, decimator pretend to be victims , that is really shame, and let me to vomit.
look those japanese atitude, why to blame china is not enough tolerance?  

引用1#
我建议你去南京，然后说这些话，对着受害者的遗骨说大屠杀是正常的。
正常？那是什么玩意儿？
PS:南京大屠杀（遇难者）纪念馆 ，位于许多大屠杀遗址之一，已公开的空间只有40平方，却发现了208具遗骨，120具遗骨可鉴定年龄，儿童的遗骨32具，老人的遗骨12具，在所有82具可鉴别男女的遗骨中女性占20%。6号遗骨是女性，遗骨上有日军刺刀的痕迹，106号、109号、90号、114号，都有铁钉钉入人体的痕迹。
整个南京大屠杀（遇难者）纪念馆建立在一个巨大的白骨堆上，只在这个遗址周围，就共埋尸达28730具。
最后，我真正要说的是那些不想承认南京大屠杀的日本人，不承认先人的罪行，这不羞耻，但杀了那么多人却假装是受害者，才真正应该感到羞耻，而且让我想吐。
看看那些日本人的态度，为什么却来指责中国不够宽容？
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11#
Wenge （来自中国）

When one country points fingers at another country because of an atrocity they should reflect inward and see how their own actions should "truthfully' be perceived.  

当一个国家对另一个国家的暴行指指点点时，他们应该深思一下内部而且看看他们自己的行为如何“如实”的被领会。   
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12#
DeliciousTomatoesYay （来自美国 ）

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wenge  
When one country points fingers at another country because of an atrocity they should reflect inward and see how their own actions should "truthfully' be perceived.

Oh, but I hardly see anyone do that! It's hard! The countries are all on some kind of drug! D:
This forums is like crack... I should stop posting before I start to not get sleepy before my piano test tomorrow :x  

引用11#
哦，但是我几乎看不到任何一个人做到！太难啦！国家都吸了一样的毒！ D:
这论坛像要破碎了……在明天的钢琴测试前，我应该在还没开始呼呼欲睡前停止发帖

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13#
fangqingming（来自中国）

Quote:
Originally Posted by mt774  
Well, some Japanese feel that China needed to exaggerate due to their need to portrait Japanese as barbarians. Maybe they only wanted to use those Chinese for medical experiment, as was normal at time -- and the most horrors of rape and so on were exploited by Chinese historians.

Quote:
by Linschoten
"Maybe they only wanted to use those Chinese for medical experiment, as was normal at time" ??  

here are some medical experiment records by some brave japanese , writen in japan:
they dissect alive chinese.
they grow bacteria in alive chinese.
they use 2 months chinese baby for medical experiment, when the baby cry for huge pain, they cut the baby's finger to avoid fingers became fist.
i can list many many cruel records,
now tell me these medical experiments all is normal and that all are faults of Chinese historians again, please.  

引用6#7#
这儿有些勇敢的日本人提供的一点人体医学实验记录，写于日本：
他们解剖活着的中国人。
他们在活着的中国人身上进行细菌感染。
他们使用两个月大的中国婴儿做医学实验，当婴儿因巨大的痛苦而大哭，他们切掉婴儿的指头来避免他们握拳。
我无法继续列举许许多多的残忍记录，
现在请再次告诉我，那些人体实验都是正常的，所有的中国历史学家都错了！
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14#
Incitatusenator （来自爱尔兰 ）

The Horror of UNIT 731 pt.1 - YouTube

This video should convey just how heinous the Japanese Army was.
(I found the lady in the 5th part saying "These people were human beings...they died like worms" particularly moving.)  

【一段YouTube 的视频，标题是The Horror of UNIT 731 pt.1】
这段视频充分体现了日军是多么的穷凶恶极。
（我注意到第五部分里那个女人说“这里没有人了……他们像蠕虫一样死去”）
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15#
Naomasa298 （来自英国）

Even if China is pointing fingers at Japan, it does not lessen or cheapen the Nanjing massacre. That would be like saying that the Allies shouldn't have prosecuted the Nazis because they themselves firebomb Dresden and dropped atomic bombs.
Unit 731, and the experiments they did on Chinese peasants - tying them to stakes at various distances from an explosion to study the effects of bomb injuries, spreading plague amongst the local population, etc. etc. are documented and rival anything the Nazis did. That they did it in the name of medical science doesn't make it any less of an atrocity that should be acknowledged and condemned. The Americans were complicit in that they allowed the Japanese doctors to go free because they wanted access to their research.
I happen to agree that the Japanese should acknowledge - and possibly apologise for - these war atrocities. I don't necessarily think it should change their foreign policies, but at the Japanese themselves should look at their actions in WW2 for what they really were.  

即使中国不断指责日本，这也不能忽视或减轻南京大屠杀。这就像是说盟军不应该起诉纳粹因为他们自己使用炸弹进攻并且扔了原子弹。
731部队，和他们对中国平民的人体实验——捆绑他们以各种距离的爆炸来打赌并研究炸弹伤害的副作用，在当地人中传播瘟疫等等。这些事都备有内部文件记录，胜过纳粹所为。他们以医学科研的名义这样做并不能使暴行减轻，这些暴行应该被公众知道并定罪。美国人和他们串通一气，允许日本医生自由行动，因为他们想要获得日本的研究结果。
我很同意日本应该承认——也许应该要道歉——为这些战争恶行。我不觉得这将会改变他们的外交政策，但日本人自己应该正视他们在二战时的行为。
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16#
Kevinmeath （来自爱尔兰）

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naomasa298  
...........................
Unit 731, and the experiments they did on Chinese peasants ..................
It wasn't just special units but standard practice among many medical units to use Chinese for 'practice'.
Some were shot in the stomach so that medics could practice the 'worst' kind of wound.
Others had all their limbs amputated (sometimes with, sometimes without, pain relief) so that Japanese doctors could practice these difficult battlefield operations.  

引用15#
这不能算是个特别的部队，但是作为许多医疗部队之间的常规练习却是用中国人来“训练”。
一些人胃部被射击以便医疗人员可以练习“最糟糕”的伤口。
其他人被截去四肢（有时打麻醉药，有时没有）以便日本医生可以实践那些困难的战地手术。
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17#
Wenge （来自中国）

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naomasa298  
Even if China is pointing fingers at Japan, it does not lessen or cheapen the Nanjing massacre. That would be like saying that the Allies shouldn't have prosecuted the Nazis because they themselves firebomb Dresden and dropped atomic bombs.
Unit 731, and the experiments they did on Chinese peasants - tying them to stakes at various distances from an explosion to study the effects of bomb injuries, spreading plague amongst the local population, etc. etc. are documented and rival anything the Nazis did. That they did it in the name of medical science doesn't make it any less of an atrocity that should be acknowledged and condemned. The Americans were complicit in that they allowed the Japanese doctors to go free because they wanted access to their research.
I happen to agree that the Japanese should acknowledge - and possibly apologise for - these war atrocities. I don't necessarily think it should change their foreign policies, but at the Japanese themselves should look at their actions in WW2 for what they really were.
The Japanese made their sincere apologies and offered reparations. Mao refused the reparations and even thanked the Japanese for their actions. The time for Japanese hatred in China should be finished.
As for being truthful about history; both countries are guilty of not telling the complete truth about their respective histories. The difference is that in Japan if a person wishes to learn the true history they have the means to do it.  

引用15#
日本人做出了他们真诚的道歉并愿意提供赔款。但毛拒绝了赔款甚至感谢日本人的行为。憎恨日本人的时代在中国该结束了。
至于历史的真实性；两个国家都有愧于在各自的历史里没有说出彻底的真相。区别在于在日本如果一个人希望学习真正的历史意味着他能够办到。
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18#
Naomasa298 （来自英国）

Who did they offer the reparations to, and when were they offered?
Joint Communiqué of the Government of Japan and the Government of the People's Republic of China - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Either way, it still does not lessen the scale of the atrocity.  

谁提供了赔款，什么时候提供的？
请贴出日本政府和中华人民共和国政府的公告—从维基百科（自由的百科全书）。
无论如何，这仍然不能减轻他们残暴的程度。
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19#
fangqingming （来自中国）

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wenge  
The Japanese made their sincere apologies and offered reparations. Mao refused the reparations and even thanked the Japanese for their actions. The time for Japanese hatred in China should be finished.
As for being truthful about history; both countries are guilty of not telling the complete truth about their respective histories. The difference is that in Japan if a person wishes to learn the true history they have the means to do it.

wenge, i don't know what mao did to you, but you almost contact everything to mao in discussion.
i correct your opinion about japanese history search if you don't mind.
most of japanese common don't know the missacre, some even think that nanjing massacre is false, you can go to japan to watch it by yourself, they wear in japanese military uniform, parade their honor on street ,when some brave japanese(in fact very rarely) stand up to blame them, these brave japanese will are blamed as traitor by most of japanese, they can't
accept all true history just like what you said. that is very surprised, you can contrast bettween germany and japan, germany have some extremists to did these things but very rarely, when they parade, a lot of german local people will stand up to express against. and most of german know nazi is bad, that is why people view germany is a normal country, but japan always have trouble about historical problems with the neighbours , i need to point out , not only china, but also sk, nk, philippine, singapore, Malaysia, etc, all have these trobles with japan, and about japanese cruel crimes records in ww2, not only china have records, ussr, usa, germany, uk, etc, all have records, even japanese soldiers have records too, although their baggages were checked when they went back to japan, some diarys still was saved until now.
stop to sing for japanese freedom about history search, please, japanese history search work never dare to check curel things what they did in history(although those curel records in anywhere of other contries), only know to blame their neighbours, i don't think they have freedom about history search.

引用17#
wenge，我不知道毛对你干了什么，但你几乎在讨论中把毛联系上任何事。
我要纠正你关于日本历史研究的观点，如果你不介意的话。
大部分日本平民不知道南京大屠杀，一些人甚至认为南京大屠杀是伪造的，你可以到日本自己看看，他们穿上日本军装，在街上行游炫耀他们的荣耀，当一些勇敢的日本人（事实上很少）站出来指责他们，这些勇敢的日本人将被大多数日本人作为叛徒来谴责，他们不能接受真正的历史就像你所说的。非常让人吃惊，你可以对比一下德国和日本，德国有些极端份子也这么干但非常少，当他们行游时，很多德国当地人会站住来表示反对。而且大多数德国人知道纳粹很糟，这就是为什么人们看待德国为一个正常的国家，而日本总和领国有历史问题，我必须指出，不仅仅是中国，还有韩国、朝鲜，菲律宾，新加坡、马来西亚等等，都和日本有麻烦。而且关于二战时日本战争暴行的档案，不仅中国有记录，前苏联、美国、德国、英国等等都有记录，甚至连日本士兵也有记录，尽管这些士兵的行李在他们回日本时被检查了，但一些日记仍然被保留到现在。
请停止歌颂日本历史研究的自由，日本的历史研究工作从来不敢确认他们历史上的暴行（尽管在其他国家到处都记录了这些暴行），只懂得指责他们的邻国，我不认为他们在历史研究上有任何自由。

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naomasa298  
Who did they offer the reparations to, and when were they offered?
Joint Communiqué of the Government of Japan and the Government of the People's Republic of China - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Either way, it still does not lessen the scale of the atrocity.
that mean china try to ended these hostile relations but key is in japanese hands, japanese did bad things indeed in history(a lot of records and informations from many countries)，a lot of chinese died after suffering ----------------china give up war reparations to show goodwill--------a lot of japanese deny the nanjing massacre or say that nanjing massacre is not too bad, blame chinese historians are too exaggerated ------------chinese are angry, more dislike japanese---------- japanese say chinese have hostility to japanese-------------------look like japan forgot that chinese is really victims , not japanese.

引用19#
那意味着中国想要结束敌对关系但是钥匙在日本人手上，日本人确实在历史上做了糟糕的事情（来自许多国家的一堆记录和信息），很多中国人受难而亡——中国放弃战争赔款来表现善意——很多日本人拒绝承认南京大屠杀或说南京大屠杀没那么糟，责备中国史学家过于夸张——中国人愤怒了，更不喜欢日本人——日本人说中国人对日本有敌意——日本人似乎忘了中国人才是受害者，不是日本人。
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20#
Wenge （来自中国 ）

Quote:
Originally Posted by fangqingming  
wenge, i don't know what mao did to you, but you almost contact
everything to mao in discussion.
i correct your opinion of japanese if you don't mind.
most of japanese common don't know the missacre, some even think that nanjing massacre is false, you can go to japan to watch it by yourself, they wear in japanese military uniform, parade their honor on street ,when some brave japanese(in fact very rarely) stand up to blame them, these brave japanese will are blamed as traitor by most of japanese, they can't
accept all true history just like what you said. that is very surprised, you can contrast bettween germany and japan, germany have some extremists to did these things but very rarely, when they parade, a lot of german local people will stand up to express against. and most of german know nazi is bad, that is why people view germany is a normal country, but japan always have trouble about historical problems with the neighbours , i need to point out , not only china, but also sk, nk, philippine, singapore,
Malaysia, etc, all have these trobles with japan, and about japanese cruel
crimes records in ww2, not only china have records, ussr, usa, germany, uk, etc, all have records, even japanese soldiers have records too, although their baggages were checked when they went back to japan, some diarys still was saved until now.
stop to sing for japanese freedom about history search, please, japanese history search work never dare to check curel things what they did in history(although those curel records in anywhere of other contries), only know to blame their neighbours, i don't think they have freedom about history search.

You cannot correct my opinion. The Japanese have the Freedom to search. What they are not taught has no bearing on what they are able to do. The history that Chinese students are taught has just as many flaws as the history that Japanese students are taught. The difference is that they will not end up in some "Black Jail" for speaking the truth or searching and talking about the truth.
In today's world it is not Japan that is causing problems for all those Pacific countries that you named and that history is irrelevant to today's world. Japan learned from their mistakes and are a proper nation in the world.
I do not believe that you know enough of the truth to be qualified to criticize the things I have said. You are entitled to your opinion and I am grateful that you have this opinion but just as you are not apt to change your opinion, you cannot CORRECT mine.  

引用19#
你无法改变我的观点。日本人有历史研究的自由。他们能去做的不受被教授的（知识）影响。中国学生被教授的历史就像日本学生被教授的那样有许多缺陷。区别在于他们不会因说真相或者调查和谈论真相而以“黑牢”告终。
在今天的世界上，并非日本对那些你提到的太平洋国家引起麻烦，历史与今天的世界不相干。日本从他们的错误中学习并且在世界上是一个正派的国家。
我不认为你对真相足够了解以至于能够批评我所说的。你有权有自己的观点，而我对你有这样的想法感到开心，但就像你不会倾向于改变你的观点，你也无法改变我的。
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转自龙腾网

注意那个ID wenge

Just a question on this massacre
源地址：http://www.historum.com/asian-hi ... stion-massacre.html
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1#（楼主）
mt774 （来自英国）

Speaking of Nanjin Massacre, Do you believe the historical accounts of this? or think that was exaggerated and did not happen is as worst way as we are told? Some Japanese really feel that exaggerated to make them look too bad in many ways...  

说到南京大屠杀，你相信它的史料记载吗？或者你认为那是夸大的，并没有我们说的以那么糟糕的形式发生过？一些日本人确实觉得（南京大屠杀）言过其实，想方设法使得他们看起来非常坏……
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2#
Kevinmeath （来自冰岛 ）



Horror in the East: Japan and the Atrocities of World War II (9780306811784): Laurence Rees: Books
This book seems good and after reading it, not only understand why they were so cruel but also its hard to underestimate how cruel they were.

颤栗东方：日本二战暴行(9780306811784): Laurence Rees著
这本书似乎挺好的，并且在读完之后，不仅仅了解他们为什么如此残暴而且难以低估他们残暴的程度。
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3#
sylla1（来自墨西哥 ）

Quote:
Originally Posted by mt774  
Speaking of Nanjin Massacre, Do you believe the historical accounts of this? or think that was exaggerated and did not happen is as worst way as we are told? Some Japanese really feel that exaggerated to make them look too bad in many ways...

This was a terrible colonial massacre by any standard.
Unsurprisingly, colonial powers have always tended to see the mote in somebody else's eye and not the beam in one's own.
(Just check out the bad press on the Belgian Congo or the Spanish American colonies).
Let just say that each colonial power had their own good share of skeletons in their closets.  

引用1#
以任何标准来看，这是一场可怕的殖民大屠杀。
不令人吃惊的，殖民国家总是倾向于看到别人眼里的小错，而不是自己的。（只要查看刚果或者美国拉丁美洲裔殖民地的负面报道）。我只能说每个殖民国家在他们的衣柜里有同样的骷髅堆。
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4#
diddyriddick（来自美国 ）

Regardless of the numbers involved, there was clearly a pattern of behavior in Nanjing. The Japanese can claim (perhaps correctly) that this does not reflect Japanese attitudes, but SOMEBODY above the individual soldiers has to be accountable. Tojo? Kwantung army commander Kenkichi Ueda?

不管涉及的数字多少，在南京的暴行是显而易见的。日本人可能声称（也许是正确的）那不能反映日本人的态度，但是在每个士兵之上的某些人是有责任的。东条英机？关东军指挥官植田谦吉？
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5#
bartieboy（来自荷兰 ）

Quote:
Originally Posted by mt774  
Speaking of Nanjin Massacre, Do you believe the historical accounts of this? or think that was exaggerated and did not happen is as worst way as we are told? Some Japanese really feel that exaggerated to make them look too bad in many ways...

I don't see the point in exaggerating this number, who were they trying to get on their side? Would you call somebody who has killed 150.000 people a bigger &$@@?- then somebody who killed 200.000 people?  

引用1#
我不明白数字夸大了的观点，他们试图站在他们那边？你们会称呼杀死15万人为大魔头？——那么杀死20万的人呢？

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6#
mt774（楼主，来自英国 ）

Well, some Japanese feel that China needed to exaggerate due to their need to portrait Japanese as barbarians. Maybe they only wanted to use those Chinese for medical experiment, as was normal at time -- and the most horrors of rape and so on were exploited by Chinese historians.  
   
好吧，一些日本人觉得由于他们把日本人描绘成野蛮人的需求，中国需要夸大史实。也许他们（指日本人）只是想用这些中国人来做医学实验，在那时太正常了——而且强奸等等惨状都是中国历史学家挖掘的。
     
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7#
Linschoten（来自美国）

"Maybe they only wanted to use those Chinese for medical experiment, as was normal at time" ??  

“也许他们只是想用这些中国人来做医学实验，在那时太正常了”？？
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8#
Naomasa298（来自英国）

I second Linschoten's sentiment, and would like to add... what the heck? "Normal"?
Do you think that makes it acceptable? How were "the horrors of rape" exploited? Isn't it horrific enough?
Enough documentary evidence exists of the horrific treatment of the Chinese at the hands of the Japanese.  

我支持Linschoten（楼上）的观点，而我想要加上一句……什么玩意儿？“正常”？
你认为那么做是可以接受的？“强奸的惨状”是怎么挖掘的？这还不够可怕？
在日本人手里有足够多的中国人被残忍对待的书面证明存在。  
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9#
DeliciousTomatoesYay （来自美国 ）

Quote:
Originally Posted by diddyriddick  
Regardless of the numbers involved, there was clearly a pattern of behavior in Nanjing. The Japanese can claim (perhaps correctly) that this does not reflect Japanese attitudes, but SOMEBODY above the individual soldiers has to be accountable. Tojo? Kwantung army commander Kenkichi Ueda?

This, I agree with!
If people still linger around and hate the Japanese because of the massacre it would be like hating modern day Germans because of the Nazis :O
I mean history should not be forgotten but also not linger in it xD
On Topic I believe it's real, maybe some very few of the extremely Chinese-hating people in Japan that holds power is preventing Japan from apologizing? It's what I hope to believe xD  

引用4#
这个，我同意！
如果人们由于大屠杀仍然逗留不去并憎恨日本人，这就像因为纳粹而憎恨今天的德国人。
我是说历史不会忘记但也不用徘徊不前XD
关于话题我认为（南京大屠杀）是真实的，可能在日本有极少数极度仇中的人极力阻挠日本道歉？这是我希望去相信的 XD
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10#
fangqingming（来自中国 ）

Quote:
Originally Posted by mt774  
Speaking of Nanjin Massacre, Do you believe the historical accounts of this? or think that was exaggerated and did not happen is as worst way as we are told? Some Japanese really feel that exaggerated to make them look too bad in many ways...

i suggest that you go to nanjing, then say these words and say massacre is nomal when you face to these victims's bones.
normal? what is that?
ps: The nanjing massacre museum， is one of a lot of massacre places, the open places only is 40 square , but be found 208 bones, above 120 bodies can be distinguished age, children bones are 32, old persons bones are 12, female bones are 20% in all 82 bones that can be
identify female or male. 6# bone is female bone, bone have japanese bayonet trace， 106# , 109#, 90#, 114# , all have Nails hurt trace.
whole nanjing massacre museum built on a huge bones pile, only around the place, there have about 28730 bones.
finally, i really want to say to those japanese who don't want to admit nanjing massacre, admitting ancestor's crimes , that is not shame, decimator pretend to be victims , that is really shame, and let me to vomit.
look those japanese atitude, why to blame china is not enough tolerance?  

引用1#
我建议你去南京，然后说这些话，对着受害者的遗骨说大屠杀是正常的。
正常？那是什么玩意儿？
PS:南京大屠杀（遇难者）纪念馆 ，位于许多大屠杀遗址之一，已公开的空间只有40平方，却发现了208具遗骨，120具遗骨可鉴定年龄，儿童的遗骨32具，老人的遗骨12具，在所有82具可鉴别男女的遗骨中女性占20%。6号遗骨是女性，遗骨上有日军刺刀的痕迹，106号、109号、90号、114号，都有铁钉钉入人体的痕迹。
整个南京大屠杀（遇难者）纪念馆建立在一个巨大的白骨堆上，只在这个遗址周围，就共埋尸达28730具。
最后，我真正要说的是那些不想承认南京大屠杀的日本人，不承认先人的罪行，这不羞耻，但杀了那么多人却假装是受害者，才真正应该感到羞耻，而且让我想吐。
看看那些日本人的态度，为什么却来指责中国不够宽容？
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11#
Wenge （来自中国）

When one country points fingers at another country because of an atrocity they should reflect inward and see how their own actions should "truthfully' be perceived.  

当一个国家对另一个国家的暴行指指点点时，他们应该深思一下内部而且看看他们自己的行为如何“如实”的被领会。   
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12#
DeliciousTomatoesYay （来自美国 ）

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wenge  
When one country points fingers at another country because of an atrocity they should reflect inward and see how their own actions should "truthfully' be perceived.

Oh, but I hardly see anyone do that! It's hard! The countries are all on some kind of drug! D:
This forums is like crack... I should stop posting before I start to not get sleepy before my piano test tomorrow :x  

引用11#
哦，但是我几乎看不到任何一个人做到！太难啦！国家都吸了一样的毒！ D:
这论坛像要破碎了……在明天的钢琴测试前，我应该在还没开始呼呼欲睡前停止发帖

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13#
fangqingming（来自中国）

Quote:
Originally Posted by mt774  
Well, some Japanese feel that China needed to exaggerate due to their need to portrait Japanese as barbarians. Maybe they only wanted to use those Chinese for medical experiment, as was normal at time -- and the most horrors of rape and so on were exploited by Chinese historians.

Quote:
by Linschoten
"Maybe they only wanted to use those Chinese for medical experiment, as was normal at time" ??  

here are some medical experiment records by some brave japanese , writen in japan:
they dissect alive chinese.
they grow bacteria in alive chinese.
they use 2 months chinese baby for medical experiment, when the baby cry for huge pain, they cut the baby's finger to avoid fingers became fist.
i can list many many cruel records,
now tell me these medical experiments all is normal and that all are faults of Chinese historians again, please.  

引用6#7#
这儿有些勇敢的日本人提供的一点人体医学实验记录，写于日本：
他们解剖活着的中国人。
他们在活着的中国人身上进行细菌感染。
他们使用两个月大的中国婴儿做医学实验，当婴儿因巨大的痛苦而大哭，他们切掉婴儿的指头来避免他们握拳。
我无法继续列举许许多多的残忍记录，
现在请再次告诉我，那些人体实验都是正常的，所有的中国历史学家都错了！
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14#
Incitatusenator （来自爱尔兰 ）

The Horror of UNIT 731 pt.1 - YouTube

This video should convey just how heinous the Japanese Army was.
(I found the lady in the 5th part saying "These people were human beings...they died like worms" particularly moving.)  

【一段YouTube 的视频，标题是The Horror of UNIT 731 pt.1】
这段视频充分体现了日军是多么的穷凶恶极。
（我注意到第五部分里那个女人说“这里没有人了……他们像蠕虫一样死去”）
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15#
Naomasa298 （来自英国）

Even if China is pointing fingers at Japan, it does not lessen or cheapen the Nanjing massacre. That would be like saying that the Allies shouldn't have prosecuted the Nazis because they themselves firebomb Dresden and dropped atomic bombs.
Unit 731, and the experiments they did on Chinese peasants - tying them to stakes at various distances from an explosion to study the effects of bomb injuries, spreading plague amongst the local population, etc. etc. are documented and rival anything the Nazis did. That they did it in the name of medical science doesn't make it any less of an atrocity that should be acknowledged and condemned. The Americans were complicit in that they allowed the Japanese doctors to go free because they wanted access to their research.
I happen to agree that the Japanese should acknowledge - and possibly apologise for - these war atrocities. I don't necessarily think it should change their foreign policies, but at the Japanese themselves should look at their actions in WW2 for what they really were.  

即使中国不断指责日本，这也不能忽视或减轻南京大屠杀。这就像是说盟军不应该起诉纳粹因为他们自己使用炸弹进攻并且扔了原子弹。
731部队，和他们对中国平民的人体实验——捆绑他们以各种距离的爆炸来打赌并研究炸弹伤害的副作用，在当地人中传播瘟疫等等。这些事都备有内部文件记录，胜过纳粹所为。他们以医学科研的名义这样做并不能使暴行减轻，这些暴行应该被公众知道并定罪。美国人和他们串通一气，允许日本医生自由行动，因为他们想要获得日本的研究结果。
我很同意日本应该承认——也许应该要道歉——为这些战争恶行。我不觉得这将会改变他们的外交政策，但日本人自己应该正视他们在二战时的行为。
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16#
Kevinmeath （来自爱尔兰）

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naomasa298  
...........................
Unit 731, and the experiments they did on Chinese peasants ..................
It wasn't just special units but standard practice among many medical units to use Chinese for 'practice'.
Some were shot in the stomach so that medics could practice the 'worst' kind of wound.
Others had all their limbs amputated (sometimes with, sometimes without, pain relief) so that Japanese doctors could practice these difficult battlefield operations.  

引用15#
这不能算是个特别的部队，但是作为许多医疗部队之间的常规练习却是用中国人来“训练”。
一些人胃部被射击以便医疗人员可以练习“最糟糕”的伤口。
其他人被截去四肢（有时打麻醉药，有时没有）以便日本医生可以实践那些困难的战地手术。
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17#
Wenge （来自中国）

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naomasa298  
Even if China is pointing fingers at Japan, it does not lessen or cheapen the Nanjing massacre. That would be like saying that the Allies shouldn't have prosecuted the Nazis because they themselves firebomb Dresden and dropped atomic bombs.
Unit 731, and the experiments they did on Chinese peasants - tying them to stakes at various distances from an explosion to study the effects of bomb injuries, spreading plague amongst the local population, etc. etc. are documented and rival anything the Nazis did. That they did it in the name of medical science doesn't make it any less of an atrocity that should be acknowledged and condemned. The Americans were complicit in that they allowed the Japanese doctors to go free because they wanted access to their research.
I happen to agree that the Japanese should acknowledge - and possibly apologise for - these war atrocities. I don't necessarily think it should change their foreign policies, but at the Japanese themselves should look at their actions in WW2 for what they really were.
The Japanese made their sincere apologies and offered reparations. Mao refused the reparations and even thanked the Japanese for their actions. The time for Japanese hatred in China should be finished.
As for being truthful about history; both countries are guilty of not telling the complete truth about their respective histories. The difference is that in Japan if a person wishes to learn the true history they have the means to do it.  

引用15#
日本人做出了他们真诚的道歉并愿意提供赔款。但毛拒绝了赔款甚至感谢日本人的行为。憎恨日本人的时代在中国该结束了。
至于历史的真实性；两个国家都有愧于在各自的历史里没有说出彻底的真相。区别在于在日本如果一个人希望学习真正的历史意味着他能够办到。
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18#
Naomasa298 （来自英国）

Who did they offer the reparations to, and when were they offered?
Joint Communiqué of the Government of Japan and the Government of the People's Republic of China - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Either way, it still does not lessen the scale of the atrocity.  

谁提供了赔款，什么时候提供的？
请贴出日本政府和中华人民共和国政府的公告—从维基百科（自由的百科全书）。
无论如何，这仍然不能减轻他们残暴的程度。
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19#
fangqingming （来自中国）

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wenge  
The Japanese made their sincere apologies and offered reparations. Mao refused the reparations and even thanked the Japanese for their actions. The time for Japanese hatred in China should be finished.
As for being truthful about history; both countries are guilty of not telling the complete truth about their respective histories. The difference is that in Japan if a person wishes to learn the true history they have the means to do it.

wenge, i don't know what mao did to you, but you almost contact everything to mao in discussion.
i correct your opinion about japanese history search if you don't mind.
most of japanese common don't know the missacre, some even think that nanjing massacre is false, you can go to japan to watch it by yourself, they wear in japanese military uniform, parade their honor on street ,when some brave japanese(in fact very rarely) stand up to blame them, these brave japanese will are blamed as traitor by most of japanese, they can't
accept all true history just like what you said. that is very surprised, you can contrast bettween germany and japan, germany have some extremists to did these things but very rarely, when they parade, a lot of german local people will stand up to express against. and most of german know nazi is bad, that is why people view germany is a normal country, but japan always have trouble about historical problems with the neighbours , i need to point out , not only china, but also sk, nk, philippine, singapore, Malaysia, etc, all have these trobles with japan, and about japanese cruel crimes records in ww2, not only china have records, ussr, usa, germany, uk, etc, all have records, even japanese soldiers have records too, although their baggages were checked when they went back to japan, some diarys still was saved until now.
stop to sing for japanese freedom about history search, please, japanese history search work never dare to check curel things what they did in history(although those curel records in anywhere of other contries), only know to blame their neighbours, i don't think they have freedom about history search.

引用17#
wenge，我不知道毛对你干了什么，但你几乎在讨论中把毛联系上任何事。
我要纠正你关于日本历史研究的观点，如果你不介意的话。
大部分日本平民不知道南京大屠杀，一些人甚至认为南京大屠杀是伪造的，你可以到日本自己看看，他们穿上日本军装，在街上行游炫耀他们的荣耀，当一些勇敢的日本人（事实上很少）站出来指责他们，这些勇敢的日本人将被大多数日本人作为叛徒来谴责，他们不能接受真正的历史就像你所说的。非常让人吃惊，你可以对比一下德国和日本，德国有些极端份子也这么干但非常少，当他们行游时，很多德国当地人会站住来表示反对。而且大多数德国人知道纳粹很糟，这就是为什么人们看待德国为一个正常的国家，而日本总和领国有历史问题，我必须指出，不仅仅是中国，还有韩国、朝鲜，菲律宾，新加坡、马来西亚等等，都和日本有麻烦。而且关于二战时日本战争暴行的档案，不仅中国有记录，前苏联、美国、德国、英国等等都有记录，甚至连日本士兵也有记录，尽管这些士兵的行李在他们回日本时被检查了，但一些日记仍然被保留到现在。
请停止歌颂日本历史研究的自由，日本的历史研究工作从来不敢确认他们历史上的暴行（尽管在其他国家到处都记录了这些暴行），只懂得指责他们的邻国，我不认为他们在历史研究上有任何自由。

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naomasa298  
Who did they offer the reparations to, and when were they offered?
Joint Communiqué of the Government of Japan and the Government of the People's Republic of China - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Either way, it still does not lessen the scale of the atrocity.
that mean china try to ended these hostile relations but key is in japanese hands, japanese did bad things indeed in history(a lot of records and informations from many countries)，a lot of chinese died after suffering ----------------china give up war reparations to show goodwill--------a lot of japanese deny the nanjing massacre or say that nanjing massacre is not too bad, blame chinese historians are too exaggerated ------------chinese are angry, more dislike japanese---------- japanese say chinese have hostility to japanese-------------------look like japan forgot that chinese is really victims , not japanese.

引用19#
那意味着中国想要结束敌对关系但是钥匙在日本人手上，日本人确实在历史上做了糟糕的事情（来自许多国家的一堆记录和信息），很多中国人受难而亡——中国放弃战争赔款来表现善意——很多日本人拒绝承认南京大屠杀或说南京大屠杀没那么糟，责备中国史学家过于夸张——中国人愤怒了，更不喜欢日本人——日本人说中国人对日本有敌意——日本人似乎忘了中国人才是受害者，不是日本人。
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20#
Wenge （来自中国 ）

Quote:
Originally Posted by fangqingming  
wenge, i don't know what mao did to you, but you almost contact
everything to mao in discussion.
i correct your opinion of japanese if you don't mind.
most of japanese common don't know the missacre, some even think that nanjing massacre is false, you can go to japan to watch it by yourself, they wear in japanese military uniform, parade their honor on street ,when some brave japanese(in fact very rarely) stand up to blame them, these brave japanese will are blamed as traitor by most of japanese, they can't
accept all true history just like what you said. that is very surprised, you can contrast bettween germany and japan, germany have some extremists to did these things but very rarely, when they parade, a lot of german local people will stand up to express against. and most of german know nazi is bad, that is why people view germany is a normal country, but japan always have trouble about historical problems with the neighbours , i need to point out , not only china, but also sk, nk, philippine, singapore,
Malaysia, etc, all have these trobles with japan, and about japanese cruel
crimes records in ww2, not only china have records, ussr, usa, germany, uk, etc, all have records, even japanese soldiers have records too, although their baggages were checked when they went back to japan, some diarys still was saved until now.
stop to sing for japanese freedom about history search, please, japanese history search work never dare to check curel things what they did in history(although those curel records in anywhere of other contries), only know to blame their neighbours, i don't think they have freedom about history search.

You cannot correct my opinion. The Japanese have the Freedom to search. What they are not taught has no bearing on what they are able to do. The history that Chinese students are taught has just as many flaws as the history that Japanese students are taught. The difference is that they will not end up in some "Black Jail" for speaking the truth or searching and talking about the truth.
In today's world it is not Japan that is causing problems for all those Pacific countries that you named and that history is irrelevant to today's world. Japan learned from their mistakes and are a proper nation in the world.
I do not believe that you know enough of the truth to be qualified to criticize the things I have said. You are entitled to your opinion and I am grateful that you have this opinion but just as you are not apt to change your opinion, you cannot CORRECT mine.  

引用19#
你无法改变我的观点。日本人有历史研究的自由。他们能去做的不受被教授的（知识）影响。中国学生被教授的历史就像日本学生被教授的那样有许多缺陷。区别在于他们不会因说真相或者调查和谈论真相而以“黑牢”告终。
在今天的世界上，并非日本对那些你提到的太平洋国家引起麻烦，历史与今天的世界不相干。日本从他们的错误中学习并且在世界上是一个正派的国家。
我不认为你对真相足够了解以至于能够批评我所说的。你有权有自己的观点，而我对你有这样的想法感到开心，但就像你不会倾向于改变你的观点，你也无法改变我的。
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