超级军网中国史上军事最强的王朝（中）--ZT龙腾
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你觉得中国哪一个朝代的军事实力最为耀眼？译文来源:原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.com 翻译：trytrytry
http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/ ... ic-military-68.html正文翻译:原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.com 翻译：trytrytry
08-30-2005 09:38 AM #1 Liberator
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Posts 270 Chinas best dynastic military?
Which Chinese dynasty do you think has the most glorious military?
你觉得中国哪一个朝代的军事实力最为耀眼？
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but during yuan there wasn't much military advancement. they basically used
superior cavalries to conquer everything, and that's why the mongols were
truly amazing.
In the Yuan dynasty of China. Chinese generals and soldiers were on
conquests and attacked Persia, and European countries. But did not kept the
lands.
引用 “不过元朝的军事没怎么进步啊。他们还是在用那无敌的骑兵碾压一切，不过这也是他们牛B之处了吧。”
元朝时候中国的将领和士兵们一直在进攻波斯和欧洲国家，但他们征服了之后没有守住那些土地。
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08-31-2005 09:32 PM #32 FriedRiceNSpice
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The Yuan dynasty shouldn't count because they were Mongol invaders. The Qing
dynasty should count because the Manchus are considered Chinese. Also, the
Manchus were accepted by the Chinese as rulers while the Mongols were not.
That is why the Yuan fell after only 80 years.
元朝不能算数，他们是蒙古入侵者。清朝不一样，因为满族已经被认为是中国人了。也正因此满族统治者得到了中国人的承认，不像蒙古人。这也是为什么元朝在80年后就分崩离析。
09-01-2005 08:20 AM #33 J T Z
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Posts 6 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
Tang was never a military power house. it is known for its culture and
science. Song was small and weak beacuse of all the boarder confilct with
other chinese ethnic groups. and none of those nations during Song era was
really big and well funded. thats why mongols just rolled through them all.
Of course the mongols were amazing too.
唐从来不是个以武力著称的朝代，而是以文化和科学闻名。宋朝由于频繁地与中国其他少数民族发生边境冲突而版图缩小，国家疲弱。宋朝时中国没有任何一个民族政权是真正强大的，所以他们都被蒙古人碾压了。当然蒙古人也实在太猛了。
It basicly should boils down to: Han, Ming, Qing. Han is 3rd largest dynasty
ever at its peak if you count in yuan. and during its time Kao Tsu, wudi and
other empreors have expanded the boarder and opened up trade routes.(the
silkroad) For its time it was no doubt one of the great powers. Even the
Romans at the time couldnt match them.(206 b.c. - 220 A.D.) At that time the
Romans were involved in Macedonian Wars. And these wars for the most of time
were at a small scale thats fought between Greek city-states, and Syria. Kao
Tsu also pushed out the Huns that was in western china and beyond, which
enabled the silkroad to be open. Huns later dominated most of europe and the
Romans couldnt really stop them. So in terms of territory size and amry size
and technology Han at its time was far greater than any nation.
基本上值得一选的朝代是，汉，明，清。其中汉朝是疆域第三大的王朝，即使把元朝也算进去的话。汉高祖，汉武帝等汉朝皇帝都拓展了疆土并开辟了贸易通道（丝绸之路）。就当时来说汉朝无疑是世界强国。甚至当时的罗马(206 b.c. - 220 A.D.)也比不上汉朝。当时的罗马正进行着马其顿战争，大多数战斗都只是与希腊城邦和叙利亚的小规模交战。而汉高祖已经彻底驱逐了盘踞在中国西部的匈奴人，并让丝绸之路通畅无阻。匈奴人后来支配了大部分的欧洲而罗马人却难以招架。所以从领土面积，军队规模和科学技术等方面来看，汉朝当时远远超越了世界上的其他国家。
As Ming and Qing, I think FriedRiceNSpice explained pretty well on why it
was a great military power.
至于明和清，我认为香辣炒饭（网友）已经对其军事力做了很好的阐述。
The problem with most Chinese dyansty is that none of the rulers were
ambitious enough. Han, Tang, Ming even part of Qing could easily conqure
every other nation near by. And project its power over europe and even find
america. But due to that they never got anywhere. and even for the ones that
did explore, and seeked out others. because of china's technology were so
much more advenced compare to other powers at the time. The explorers comes
back with nothing new, and the king/empreor would assume that every other
nation around the world are nothing compare to him therefore compeletly
ignore other nations, unless they come to him. Over the time this settles in
and became the close door policy. And China became more and more isolated
and shortsighted that it stop most of technological and civil advencements.
Until rest of the world caught up and surpassed them.
Last edited by J T Z; 09-01-2005 at 08:38 AM.
对于大部分的中国王朝来说都存在一个缺陷，就是都没有产生一位有着足够野心的统治者。汉，唐，明，甚至前期的清，都能够轻易征服中国周边的国家，并且能将力量延伸至欧洲大陆，甚至发现美洲。但他们呆在东方哪也不去。连他们的探险者也是如此，中国当时的科技远高于任何一个国家，但当探险者回来时却没有带回任何新鲜事物。而皇帝们就以为外国没有一样东西能比得上天朝，完全忽略了世界上其他国家的存在，直到别人来到自家门口。久而久之，这演变成了闭关政策。中国由此变得越来越孤立和短视，并停止了大部分的科技研发和文明进程。于是，世界上的其他国家最终赶上并超过了他们。
09-01-2005 10:43 AM #34 Liberator
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Song was small and weak beacuse of all the boarder confilct with other
chinese ethnic groups.
Northern Song or Southern Song???
引用 “宋朝由于频繁地与中国其他少数民族发生边境冲突而版图缩小，国家疲弱。”
北宋还是南宋？
09-01-2005 04:37 PM #35 Obcession
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Posts 395 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
Originally Posted by FriedRiceNSpice
The Yuan dynasty shouldn't count because they were Mongol invaders. The Qing
dynasty should count because the Manchus are considered Chinese. Also, the
Manchus were accepted by the Chinese as rulers while the Mongols were not.
That is why the Yuan fell after only 80 years.
Just like to point out, Manchus weren't accepted by Chinese either. "Rebel
against Qing, Reinstall Ming" (返清扶明(not sure if I spelled the third
character right) ) was a common thing to be said by Chinese rebels that
wants the Ming back and get rid of Qing.
引用 “元朝不能算数，他们是蒙古入侵者。清朝不一样，因为满族已经被认为是中国人了。也正因此满族统治者得到了中国人的承认，不像蒙古人。这也是为什么元朝在80年后就分崩离析。”
我想指出的是，满族当时也不认为是中国人。“反清复明”（我不是很清楚这些汉字的拼写）是那些中国革命家常用的一个口号，他们想要明朝回来，摆脱清朝。
09-01-2005 04:45 PM #36 Liberator
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返清扶明
It says "Against the Qing, serve the Ming".
这上面写的字是。。。“反清复明”(囧）
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Well, I think rebels who say that wants to go backword.
嘛，我想那些革命家是想回到过去罢。
At that time, Taiwan is wearing Ming uniforms and not Qing, no pigtails.
They also wanted independence. But later was reunified by Qing China.
当时台湾还依然通用明朝服饰，脑后也没有猪尾。他们也想独立出去，但随后被清统一了。
09-01-2005 06:11 PM #37 T-U-P
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Originally Posted by Obcession
Just like to point out, Manchus weren't accepted by Chinese either. "Rebel
against Qing, Reinstall Ming" (返清扶明(not sure if I spelled the third
character right) ) was a common thing to be said by Chinese rebels that
wants the Ming back and get rid of Qing.
but that was only in the early stages of Qing, later (after Kang Xi)
everyone pretty much accepted Qing as their government.
引用 “ 我想指出的是，满族当时也不认为是中国人。“反清复明”（我不是很清楚这些汉字的拼写）是那些中国革命家常用的一个口号，他们想要明朝回来，摆脱清朝。”
但这只是清初的事情，康熙之后几乎所有人都认可了清朝。
09-01-2005 09:31 PM #38 President
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Posts 117 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
Originally Posted by FriedRiceNSpice
The Yuan dynasty shouldn't count because they were Mongol invaders. The Qing
dynasty should count because the Manchus are considered Chinese. Also, the
Manchus were accepted by the Chinese as rulers while the Mongols were not.
That is why the Yuan fell after only 80 years.
but after long time blood-mixed, there is no pure Hans any more. i heard,
some chinese experts say every people in china has percentage on mongolia
blood.
引用 “元朝不能算数，他们是蒙古入侵者。清朝不一样，因为满族已经被认为是中国人了。也正因此满族统治者得到了中国人的承认，不像蒙古人。这也是为什么元朝在80年后就分崩离析。”
但是经过长时间的混血，已经没有纯种的汉人了。我听一些中国的专家说每个中国人体内都流着蒙古人的血。
09-01-2005 09:54 PM #39 FriedRiceNSpice
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At that time, Taiwan is wearing Ming uniforms and not Qing, no pigtails.
They also wanted independence. But later was reunified by Qing China.
Wow, looks like history is on the verge of repeating itself. Taiwan still
wears KMT uniform, not CCP uniform. But CCP China will reunify Taiwan.
引用 “ 当时台湾还依然通用明朝服饰，脑后也没有猪尾。他们也想独立出去，但随后被清统一了。”
哇，看来历史还真是不断在重复。台湾依然身着国民党制服，而不是中共的。但共产党中国会重新统一台湾。
09-05-2005 10:29 AM #40 Liberator
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Posts 270 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
The Yuan dynasty shouldn't count because they were Mongol invaders.
They do count mate. The emperor is not Chinese but the generals, troops and
money used, siege weapons, equipments and supplies anre mostly Chinese.
引用 "元朝不能算数，他们是蒙古入侵者。”
元朝怎么不算？虽然皇帝不是中国人，但他手下的将军，部队，货币，攻城武器，装备和补给都是中国的。
09-12-2005 11:08 PM #41 muyang523
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Posts 82 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
I liked the Yuan dynasty at one point they had the largest empire of all
time. I think Qing was strong in the beginning , but they got weaker and
weaker. This is the same with all the dynastys.
我喜欢元朝就是因为它一直是最大的帝国。我想清朝刚开始时是强大的，但之后越来越弱。这也是所有王朝都共通的一点。
09-12-2005 11:12 PM #42 FriedRiceNSpice
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Posts 1,444 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
Originally Posted by muyang523
I liked the Yuan dynasty at one point they had the largest empire of all
time. I think Qing was strong in the beginning , but they got weaker and
weaker. This is the same with all the dynastys.
It won't be the case for the People's Republic of China!
引用 “ 我喜欢元朝就是因为它一直是最大的帝国。我想清朝刚开始时是强大的，但之后越来越弱。这也是所有王朝都共通的一点。”
中华人民共和国将打破这一宿命！
09-13-2005 08:42 AM #43 Obcession
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Every great nation/empire/dynasty has its rise, maturity, and fall. The main
reason many dynasties fell previously in China was because of corruption.
The emperor wanted everything to himself and built big projects using slave
labourers. Or the emperor's subordinates were very corrupted and started
taxing the people like crazy. This resulted in many peasant uprisings which
overthrew the old government and installed a new one that thinks for the
people. But over time this government will become corrupt as well and
history repeats itself. That's why the CCP either needs to crack down on
corruption more, or have multi party elections.
每个伟大的民族，帝国，王朝都盈虚有数。中国历来王朝衰败的主要原因都是因为腐败。帝王想拥有一切，大兴土木，征伕徭役。或者底下官员堕落腐化，刮民若狂。这就导致了农民起义，推翻旧政府，建立新的为人民着想的政权。但随着时间的流逝新政府也将再度变得腐败，历史就这样重复。同样，如果再让中国的腐败加剧，中共也要倒台，或者改制成多党派选举。
01-02-2006 10:31 PM #44 patriot
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Posts 85 I voted for the Warring State because there's a lot of famous
battles involved. I don't think the voting instruction is quite clear
whether it's asking for the best/famous military time or a good army
I was wondering why the Han dynasty wasn't involve in this poll. I would
definitely vote for it if it's there.
Last edited by Gollevainen; 01-03-2006 at 04:23 AM. Reason: No douple
postring, expecially no oneliners!!!
我投了战国时代，因为那时有很多著名的战役。我对投票标准不太明白，到底是选出最辉煌最有名的军事时期还是最强大的军队？
如果可以选汉朝的话我一定选汉朝。
08-15-2006 02:02 AM #45 Tassadar
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Posts 12 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
Originally Posted by J T Z
With all due respect, I beg to differ. In terms of military power, there is
only one time in Han(under Han Wu Di) that china is strong. Also, the
military organization in Han is obsolete and ineffective. On the paper it
works fine: with every peasant in china as a soldier, china will have
millions. However, as Qian Mu(钱穆）and many other historians pointed
out: that everyone is a solider effectively equates none is a soldier. The
poor training, poor equipment and poor morale is inevitable given the
organization method of military of Han.
请允许我提出异议。就军事能力来说，汉朝只有一小段时期（汉武帝时期）是强大的。而且汉朝的军事体系非常落后低效。只是在纸面上写得好看，譬如每个农民都可作为军人，这样一来就能有数百万军队。其实就像钱穆等历史学家指出的:每个人都是军人实际上等于没有真正的军人。低劣的训练，低劣的装备，低劣的士气，对汉朝的军事体系来说就是不可避免的。
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On the other hand, Tang has a different approach. By organizing militaries
as self-supplied production units(府兵制), the training and the equipement of
military improved with no burden on goverment. Although the organizaiton
method rotten and deterorated latter on due to human failures, the first
half of Tang(初唐-盛唐) was arguably the strongest period of chinese military.
另一方面，唐朝走的是不同的道路。半自给的军垦式军事体系。训练和装备都不会加重政府负担。可惜这套体系后来因为人性弱点变质了。唐朝的前半段绝对是中国军事最强的时期。
As a chinese myself, I do admire the conquer of Han and other dynasties.
However, a more clear look at the history reveals that Tang is the zenith of
Chinese civilization for almost all aspects with no exception of military.
作为一个中国人，我很欣赏汉朝的征服者和其他帝王。但是纵览历史的轮轴，唐朝在各个方面都应该是中华文明的顶峰。
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08-15-2006 04:21 AM #46 mindreader
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Posts 52 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
Originally Posted by FriedRiceNSpice
I do not understand why anyone voted for Tang. The Tang did little to expand
China's borders. Furthermore, the Tang didn't vastly improve China's wealth
or improve China intellectually or scientifically. The Song which followed
the Tang was a much stronger dynasty, and did much to defeat barbarian
tribes and expand Chinese territory before being overwhelmed by the Turks
themselves.
I am sure you are joking. Too see how far the Tang Dynasty expanded, look up
the Battle of Talas. The Song Dynasty can't hold the Li family's collective
jockstraps. And no, the Tang armies were far from weak. Just ask the
Japanese for the "lessons" they learnt.
引用 “ 我不懂怎么有那么多人选唐朝。唐朝几乎没有扩张中国的版图。而且唐朝也没有大量扩充中国的财富，提升中国的科技水平。唐之后的宋朝就强大多了，打败了那些野蛮人部落并扩展了疆界。直到被那些突厥人碾压。”
你开玩笑。看看唐朝的疆界吧，再查查塔拉斯之战。宋朝的败家子们把从李家继承的衣钵败到只剩裤衩。唐朝的军队跟“弱”这个字相差了十万八千里，你去问问那些日本人就知道我们当初是怎么给他们上课的。
Then there are other people saying that "power projection" through the Ming
fleets is a sign of the greatest dynasty. That is also a ridiculous
qualifier. When comparing history, one needs to look at things relative to
other powers of the time. It is asinine to say the Ming Dynasty could
conquor the world where the Qin couldn't. Put simply, there is a 1600 year
technology gap. If one day people in giant space ships are fighting on Mars,
is the Ming Dynasty less impressive then?
另外还有人说通过舰队的兵力投送是明朝夺冠的理由。简直荒谬，跟历史上其他的朝代比较起来，说什么明朝能够征服秦朝征服不了的世界各国，所以明朝比秦朝强？想想吧，他们之间可是隔了条1600年的鸿沟啊。难道说如果有一天人类能够在巨大的宇宙飞船里打火星大战，那时我们也可以把明朝贬得不值一提吗？
Also, I can't believe how anybody in their right mind could vote the Qing
Dynasty as the best, especially to do so based simply on looking at maps.
There is a reason the Qing Dynasty is considered in China, almost without
question, as the worst dynasty ever.
而且我也不明白那些选清朝的人脑子里是怎么想的，眼睛就只会盯着地图。清朝当然算是中国王朝，中国最差的王朝。
Huang Taji was OK. Kangxi was great. It was all downhill from there. If not
for the so called Ten Great Campaigns, Qianlong would be looked upon as a
moron (as he should be).
皇太极还不错。康熙很优秀。但从此之后清朝完全是下坡路。如果不是所谓的“十全武功”，乾隆也不过是个低能儿。
For those that says corruption got especially bad during Cixi, they've
obviously never heard of He Shen, who's wealth is mentioned as a percentage
of the world's total wealth. When he was finally forced to suicide and his
property seized, his wealth exceeded 10 to 15 years worth of the Qing
Dynasty's total income. And he is just the tip of the iceberg. If we are to
include other corrupt officials, well...
至于那几位说慈禧非常腐败的，显然他们还不知道和珅。他的财富一度占到了当时世界总财富的百分之一。但他最后被赐死，财产充公时的总额相当于清政府10到15年的财政收入。而他只不过是庞大的腐败官僚群体中的冰山一角。。。
But by far the greatest setback they did to China was technologically. By
the way, yes they did abandon firearms. As I've said in another thread, if
not for Kangxi's obsession with cannons, the Opium War would have been even
uglier than it was.
但他们在中国造成的最大倒退是科技方面的，他们确实放弃了火器。如果不是康熙曾迷恋大炮，鸦片战争会打得更难看。
01-12-2007 07:14 PM #47 Edinburgher
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Posts 1 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
Originally Posted by Liberator
Remember. the Qing troops did not get enough food, therefore they are slow,
weak, fragile on the battlefield. Most of the money from the goverment had
been stolen by lots of bad goverment officials's pockets.
Actually, i hate Qing, cos the rulers and kings of Qing are originally from
other countries,(close to Russia and North China). they are very cruel
*******, they ruined the China and dragged China into darkness, before Qing,
China's military are advanced, technical, economic and agriculcure are
ranged top 3 in the world, during Qing's ruling, China became very weak...
the most shame for Qing;s rulers are they forced Chinese to change their
hair style and cloth style. so Chinese in Qing 's dressing are ugly...
Last edited by sumdud; 01-12-2007 at 07:53 PM.
引用 “记住。清军甚至没有足够军粮。所以他们在战场上如此缓慢，无力，脆弱。大量军费被政府官员贪污了。”
老实说，我恨清朝。因为统治者来自外国。他们异常凶残。他们坏我河山。清之前，中国的军事一直在进步，科技，经济和农业都名列世界前三。而在清的统治下，中国日益孱弱。。。而清带来的最大耻辱是，他们强迫中国人改装蓄辫，在清朝时的中国人形象竟是如此丑陋。
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01-12-2007 07:58 PM #48 sumdud
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Posts 1,836 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
First, welcome to The Forum.
I see that you are from Edinburgh. Go ahead and enjoy yourself in the Club
room.
首先，欢迎你来到俺们论坛。俺看到你来自爱丁堡。到俱乐部去轻松下吧。
But I hope you understand that this is a strict forum and we do not allow
bashing of any kind, including the Manchus. We do have Manchu members
onboard. It does not help either when the information is biased/connected
with only one kind.
俺希望你能明白这是个严肃的论坛，俺们不允许开涮任何人，包括满族。因为这也有满族会员。针对任何人群的偏见都是没有好处的。
I want Asia on my front porch and America as my backyard.
Disclaimer: By America, I meant the Continent. And yes, I know Asian homes
have neither a backyard nor a porch in the American sense.
Reply With Quote
01-12-2007 08:19 PM #49 kunmingren
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Posts 129 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
Originally Posted by Edinburgher
Actually, i hate Qing, cos the rulers and kings of Qing are originally from
other countries,(close to Russia and North China). they are very cruel
*******, they ruined the China and dragged China into darkness, before Qing,
China's military are advanced, technical, economic and agriculcure are
ranged top 3 in the world, during Qing's ruling, China became very weak...
the most shame for Qing;s rulers are they forced Chinese to change their
hair style and cloth style. so Chinese in Qing 's dressing are ugly...
i would completely disagree with your thinking, Qing werent any worse than
any other dynasty, they didn't 'ruin' china, its just that the rest of the
world caught up with China because there wasnt any inovation since Song
Dynasty ended. If anything, the Ming dynasty was the most abysmal ruling
family in Chinese history. Most notoriously decadent or sadistic or even
illiterate emperors are from that dynasty.
引用 “老实说，我恨清朝。因为统治者来自外国。他们异常凶残。他们坏我河山。清之前，中国的军事一直在进步，科技，经济和农业都名列世界前三。而在清的统治下，中国日益孱弱。。。而清带来的最大耻辱是，他们强迫中国人改装蓄辫，在清朝时的中国人形象竟是如此丑陋。”
我完全不同意你的看法。清朝并不比其他王朝坏，他们没有玩坏中国。只不过是被世界其他国家逐渐赶超了，因为中国自宋代结束就再没有革新了。明朝才是最恶劣的朝代，大部分颓废，暴虐甚至病态的皇帝都是明朝的。
01-16-2007 11:07 PM #50 Spike
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Posts 142 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
The Tang period was one of the most glorious in Chinese history; it was a
marvel of culture, diplomacy, and military conquest. The early Tang emperors
built strong relationships with certain nomadic tribes and cleverly
exploited divisions among their enemies from without. Using their
technological superiority, the Tang armies expanded into Vietnam, Manchuria,
and the TarimBasin up to the Pamirs and the TalasRiver (Remarkably Korea
stalemated the Tang but accepted tributary status). Culturally the Tang knew
no rivals, porcelain was perfected during the Tang, and printing was
invented. Some of the greatest poets in Chinese history were from the Tang,
ie. Du Fu and Li Bai. Chang'an boasted 2 million inhabitants from all over
the world: Arabs, Jews, Persians, Koreans, Japanese, etc. Korea, Japan, and
Vietnam were heavily influenced by Tang China and began to borrow heavily
from Chinese culture.
唐朝是中国历史上最辉煌的时期，包括文化的奇葩，外交和军事征服。唐朝前期的皇帝与一些游牧部落建立了稳固的关系，并聪明地分化了他的敌人。运用高超的科技，唐军纵深挺进到了越南，满洲里，塔里木盆地，帕米尔高原和塔拉斯河。（高丽人挡住了唐军但最终还是接受了朝贡体系）唐朝文化上无可匹敌。唐代的瓷器堪称完美，还发明了印刷术（雕版印刷--译者注）。中国古代一些最伟大的诗人来自唐朝，像杜甫和李白。长安城是世界之都，居民超过200万，其中有阿拉伯人，犹太人，波斯人，高丽人，日本人。深受唐文化影响并将之搬运借鉴的国家有朝鲜，日本，越南等等。
The Song Dynasty is often seen as 'weak' by Chinese because it fell to the
Mongols, resulting in the poorly run and discriminatory Yuan dynasty.
However, the Song managed to hold out for 40 years against the Mongols who
were aided by Chinese engineers and military technicians. In fact, Genghis
Khan first sent his Golden Horde west, overrunning all of Russia before they
turned back in Hungary with the Great Khan's death. Despite being the
closest in proximity to the Mongolian homelands the Song were probably one
of the more successful holdouts to Mongol dominance, not able to exploit bad
sea weather like the Japanese and Javanese, or extreme distances like the
Mamluks.
宋朝一般被中国人看作孱弱因为它被蒙古征服了，宋王室被元朝赶尽杀绝。尽管如此，它曾经抵挡了被中国工匠和军事科技滋养的蒙古人超过40年。实际上，成吉思汗曾派他的黄金家族往西占领了全部的俄罗斯，直到在匈牙利获知大可汗的死讯。如果不是毗邻蒙古本土，宋朝很可能抵挡住蒙古人的狂潮，可惜它不像日本有“神风",布尔吉的马穆鲁克有距离蒙古的超远路程。
01-27-2007 03:44 PM #51 Ryz05
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Posts 385 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
I choose the PRC because of their destructive potential (they have nukes).
Also, China has never been so secure along its borders, as opposed to the
early days when there were threats from the North (Mongols and Huns).
Otherwise I would've chosen Qin because of the unification and the impact
the period had on military ideology.
我选择了中华人民共和国，因为他们的毁灭性的潜力。（他们有核弹）而且中国现在的国境线是最平静的，不像以前面临着来自北方的威胁（蒙古和匈奴）。要么我就选择秦，因为它对六国的统一，还有它当时的军事理念带来的冲击。
http://www.ltaaa.com/wtfy/2290.html
你觉得中国哪一个朝代的军事实力最为耀眼？译文来源:原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.com 翻译：trytrytry
http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/ ... ic-military-68.html正文翻译:原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.com 翻译：trytrytry
08-30-2005 09:38 AM #1 Liberator
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Posts 270 Chinas best dynastic military?
Which Chinese dynasty do you think has the most glorious military?
你觉得中国哪一个朝代的军事实力最为耀眼？
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Posts 270 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
but during yuan there wasn't much military advancement. they basically used
superior cavalries to conquer everything, and that's why the mongols were
truly amazing.
In the Yuan dynasty of China. Chinese generals and soldiers were on
conquests and attacked Persia, and European countries. But did not kept the
lands.
引用 “不过元朝的军事没怎么进步啊。他们还是在用那无敌的骑兵碾压一切，不过这也是他们牛B之处了吧。”
元朝时候中国的将领和士兵们一直在进攻波斯和欧洲国家，但他们征服了之后没有守住那些土地。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.com 翻译：trytrytry
08-31-2005 09:32 PM #32 FriedRiceNSpice
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Posts 1,444 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
The Yuan dynasty shouldn't count because they were Mongol invaders. The Qing
dynasty should count because the Manchus are considered Chinese. Also, the
Manchus were accepted by the Chinese as rulers while the Mongols were not.
That is why the Yuan fell after only 80 years.
元朝不能算数，他们是蒙古入侵者。清朝不一样，因为满族已经被认为是中国人了。也正因此满族统治者得到了中国人的承认，不像蒙古人。这也是为什么元朝在80年后就分崩离析。
09-01-2005 08:20 AM #33 J T Z
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Posts 6 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
Tang was never a military power house. it is known for its culture and
science. Song was small and weak beacuse of all the boarder confilct with
other chinese ethnic groups. and none of those nations during Song era was
really big and well funded. thats why mongols just rolled through them all.
Of course the mongols were amazing too.
唐从来不是个以武力著称的朝代，而是以文化和科学闻名。宋朝由于频繁地与中国其他少数民族发生边境冲突而版图缩小，国家疲弱。宋朝时中国没有任何一个民族政权是真正强大的，所以他们都被蒙古人碾压了。当然蒙古人也实在太猛了。
It basicly should boils down to: Han, Ming, Qing. Han is 3rd largest dynasty
ever at its peak if you count in yuan. and during its time Kao Tsu, wudi and
other empreors have expanded the boarder and opened up trade routes.(the
silkroad) For its time it was no doubt one of the great powers. Even the
Romans at the time couldnt match them.(206 b.c. - 220 A.D.) At that time the
Romans were involved in Macedonian Wars. And these wars for the most of time
were at a small scale thats fought between Greek city-states, and Syria. Kao
Tsu also pushed out the Huns that was in western china and beyond, which
enabled the silkroad to be open. Huns later dominated most of europe and the
Romans couldnt really stop them. So in terms of territory size and amry size
and technology Han at its time was far greater than any nation.
基本上值得一选的朝代是，汉，明，清。其中汉朝是疆域第三大的王朝，即使把元朝也算进去的话。汉高祖，汉武帝等汉朝皇帝都拓展了疆土并开辟了贸易通道（丝绸之路）。就当时来说汉朝无疑是世界强国。甚至当时的罗马(206 b.c. - 220 A.D.)也比不上汉朝。当时的罗马正进行着马其顿战争，大多数战斗都只是与希腊城邦和叙利亚的小规模交战。而汉高祖已经彻底驱逐了盘踞在中国西部的匈奴人，并让丝绸之路通畅无阻。匈奴人后来支配了大部分的欧洲而罗马人却难以招架。所以从领土面积，军队规模和科学技术等方面来看，汉朝当时远远超越了世界上的其他国家。
As Ming and Qing, I think FriedRiceNSpice explained pretty well on why it
was a great military power.
至于明和清，我认为香辣炒饭（网友）已经对其军事力做了很好的阐述。
The problem with most Chinese dyansty is that none of the rulers were
ambitious enough. Han, Tang, Ming even part of Qing could easily conqure
every other nation near by. And project its power over europe and even find
america. But due to that they never got anywhere. and even for the ones that
did explore, and seeked out others. because of china's technology were so
much more advenced compare to other powers at the time. The explorers comes
back with nothing new, and the king/empreor would assume that every other
nation around the world are nothing compare to him therefore compeletly
ignore other nations, unless they come to him. Over the time this settles in
and became the close door policy. And China became more and more isolated
and shortsighted that it stop most of technological and civil advencements.
Until rest of the world caught up and surpassed them.
Last edited by J T Z; 09-01-2005 at 08:38 AM.
对于大部分的中国王朝来说都存在一个缺陷，就是都没有产生一位有着足够野心的统治者。汉，唐，明，甚至前期的清，都能够轻易征服中国周边的国家，并且能将力量延伸至欧洲大陆，甚至发现美洲。但他们呆在东方哪也不去。连他们的探险者也是如此，中国当时的科技远高于任何一个国家，但当探险者回来时却没有带回任何新鲜事物。而皇帝们就以为外国没有一样东西能比得上天朝，完全忽略了世界上其他国家的存在，直到别人来到自家门口。久而久之，这演变成了闭关政策。中国由此变得越来越孤立和短视，并停止了大部分的科技研发和文明进程。于是，世界上的其他国家最终赶上并超过了他们。
09-01-2005 10:43 AM #34 Liberator
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Posts 270 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
Song was small and weak beacuse of all the boarder confilct with other
chinese ethnic groups.
Northern Song or Southern Song???
引用 “宋朝由于频繁地与中国其他少数民族发生边境冲突而版图缩小，国家疲弱。”
北宋还是南宋？
09-01-2005 04:37 PM #35 Obcession
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Posts 395 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
Originally Posted by FriedRiceNSpice
The Yuan dynasty shouldn't count because they were Mongol invaders. The Qing
dynasty should count because the Manchus are considered Chinese. Also, the
Manchus were accepted by the Chinese as rulers while the Mongols were not.
That is why the Yuan fell after only 80 years.
Just like to point out, Manchus weren't accepted by Chinese either. "Rebel
against Qing, Reinstall Ming" (返清扶明(not sure if I spelled the third
character right) ) was a common thing to be said by Chinese rebels that
wants the Ming back and get rid of Qing.
引用 “元朝不能算数，他们是蒙古入侵者。清朝不一样，因为满族已经被认为是中国人了。也正因此满族统治者得到了中国人的承认，不像蒙古人。这也是为什么元朝在80年后就分崩离析。”
我想指出的是，满族当时也不认为是中国人。“反清复明”（我不是很清楚这些汉字的拼写）是那些中国革命家常用的一个口号，他们想要明朝回来，摆脱清朝。
09-01-2005 04:45 PM #36 Liberator
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Posts 270 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
返清扶明
It says "Against the Qing, serve the Ming".
这上面写的字是。。。“反清复明”(囧）
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.com 翻译：trytrytry
Well, I think rebels who say that wants to go backword.
嘛，我想那些革命家是想回到过去罢。
At that time, Taiwan is wearing Ming uniforms and not Qing, no pigtails.
They also wanted independence. But later was reunified by Qing China.
当时台湾还依然通用明朝服饰，脑后也没有猪尾。他们也想独立出去，但随后被清统一了。
09-01-2005 06:11 PM #37 T-U-P
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Posts 856 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
Originally Posted by Obcession
Just like to point out, Manchus weren't accepted by Chinese either. "Rebel
against Qing, Reinstall Ming" (返清扶明(not sure if I spelled the third
character right) ) was a common thing to be said by Chinese rebels that
wants the Ming back and get rid of Qing.
but that was only in the early stages of Qing, later (after Kang Xi)
everyone pretty much accepted Qing as their government.
引用 “ 我想指出的是，满族当时也不认为是中国人。“反清复明”（我不是很清楚这些汉字的拼写）是那些中国革命家常用的一个口号，他们想要明朝回来，摆脱清朝。”
但这只是清初的事情，康熙之后几乎所有人都认可了清朝。
09-01-2005 09:31 PM #38 President
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Posts 117 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
Originally Posted by FriedRiceNSpice
The Yuan dynasty shouldn't count because they were Mongol invaders. The Qing
dynasty should count because the Manchus are considered Chinese. Also, the
Manchus were accepted by the Chinese as rulers while the Mongols were not.
That is why the Yuan fell after only 80 years.
but after long time blood-mixed, there is no pure Hans any more. i heard,
some chinese experts say every people in china has percentage on mongolia
blood.
引用 “元朝不能算数，他们是蒙古入侵者。清朝不一样，因为满族已经被认为是中国人了。也正因此满族统治者得到了中国人的承认，不像蒙古人。这也是为什么元朝在80年后就分崩离析。”
但是经过长时间的混血，已经没有纯种的汉人了。我听一些中国的专家说每个中国人体内都流着蒙古人的血。
09-01-2005 09:54 PM #39 FriedRiceNSpice
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Posts 1,444 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
At that time, Taiwan is wearing Ming uniforms and not Qing, no pigtails.
They also wanted independence. But later was reunified by Qing China.
Wow, looks like history is on the verge of repeating itself. Taiwan still
wears KMT uniform, not CCP uniform. But CCP China will reunify Taiwan.
引用 “ 当时台湾还依然通用明朝服饰，脑后也没有猪尾。他们也想独立出去，但随后被清统一了。”
哇，看来历史还真是不断在重复。台湾依然身着国民党制服，而不是中共的。但共产党中国会重新统一台湾。
09-05-2005 10:29 AM #40 Liberator
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Posts 270 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
The Yuan dynasty shouldn't count because they were Mongol invaders.
They do count mate. The emperor is not Chinese but the generals, troops and
money used, siege weapons, equipments and supplies anre mostly Chinese.
引用 "元朝不能算数，他们是蒙古入侵者。”
元朝怎么不算？虽然皇帝不是中国人，但他手下的将军，部队，货币，攻城武器，装备和补给都是中国的。
09-12-2005 11:08 PM #41 muyang523
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Posts 82 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
I liked the Yuan dynasty at one point they had the largest empire of all
time. I think Qing was strong in the beginning , but they got weaker and
weaker. This is the same with all the dynastys.
我喜欢元朝就是因为它一直是最大的帝国。我想清朝刚开始时是强大的，但之后越来越弱。这也是所有王朝都共通的一点。
09-12-2005 11:12 PM #42 FriedRiceNSpice
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Posts 1,444 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
Originally Posted by muyang523
I liked the Yuan dynasty at one point they had the largest empire of all
time. I think Qing was strong in the beginning , but they got weaker and
weaker. This is the same with all the dynastys.
It won't be the case for the People's Republic of China!
引用 “ 我喜欢元朝就是因为它一直是最大的帝国。我想清朝刚开始时是强大的，但之后越来越弱。这也是所有王朝都共通的一点。”
中华人民共和国将打破这一宿命！
09-13-2005 08:42 AM #43 Obcession
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Posts 395 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
Every great nation/empire/dynasty has its rise, maturity, and fall. The main
reason many dynasties fell previously in China was because of corruption.
The emperor wanted everything to himself and built big projects using slave
labourers. Or the emperor's subordinates were very corrupted and started
taxing the people like crazy. This resulted in many peasant uprisings which
overthrew the old government and installed a new one that thinks for the
people. But over time this government will become corrupt as well and
history repeats itself. That's why the CCP either needs to crack down on
corruption more, or have multi party elections.
每个伟大的民族，帝国，王朝都盈虚有数。中国历来王朝衰败的主要原因都是因为腐败。帝王想拥有一切，大兴土木，征伕徭役。或者底下官员堕落腐化，刮民若狂。这就导致了农民起义，推翻旧政府，建立新的为人民着想的政权。但随着时间的流逝新政府也将再度变得腐败，历史就这样重复。同样，如果再让中国的腐败加剧，中共也要倒台，或者改制成多党派选举。
01-02-2006 10:31 PM #44 patriot
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Posts 85 I voted for the Warring State because there's a lot of famous
battles involved. I don't think the voting instruction is quite clear
whether it's asking for the best/famous military time or a good army
I was wondering why the Han dynasty wasn't involve in this poll. I would
definitely vote for it if it's there.
Last edited by Gollevainen; 01-03-2006 at 04:23 AM. Reason: No douple
postring, expecially no oneliners!!!
我投了战国时代，因为那时有很多著名的战役。我对投票标准不太明白，到底是选出最辉煌最有名的军事时期还是最强大的军队？
如果可以选汉朝的话我一定选汉朝。
08-15-2006 02:02 AM #45 Tassadar
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Posts 12 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
Originally Posted by J T Z
With all due respect, I beg to differ. In terms of military power, there is
only one time in Han(under Han Wu Di) that china is strong. Also, the
military organization in Han is obsolete and ineffective. On the paper it
works fine: with every peasant in china as a soldier, china will have
millions. However, as Qian Mu(钱穆）and many other historians pointed
out: that everyone is a solider effectively equates none is a soldier. The
poor training, poor equipment and poor morale is inevitable given the
organization method of military of Han.
请允许我提出异议。就军事能力来说，汉朝只有一小段时期（汉武帝时期）是强大的。而且汉朝的军事体系非常落后低效。只是在纸面上写得好看，譬如每个农民都可作为军人，这样一来就能有数百万军队。其实就像钱穆等历史学家指出的:每个人都是军人实际上等于没有真正的军人。低劣的训练，低劣的装备，低劣的士气，对汉朝的军事体系来说就是不可避免的。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.com 翻译：trytrytry
On the other hand, Tang has a different approach. By organizing militaries
as self-supplied production units(府兵制), the training and the equipement of
military improved with no burden on goverment. Although the organizaiton
method rotten and deterorated latter on due to human failures, the first
half of Tang(初唐-盛唐) was arguably the strongest period of chinese military.
另一方面，唐朝走的是不同的道路。半自给的军垦式军事体系。训练和装备都不会加重政府负担。可惜这套体系后来因为人性弱点变质了。唐朝的前半段绝对是中国军事最强的时期。
As a chinese myself, I do admire the conquer of Han and other dynasties.
However, a more clear look at the history reveals that Tang is the zenith of
Chinese civilization for almost all aspects with no exception of military.
作为一个中国人，我很欣赏汉朝的征服者和其他帝王。但是纵览历史的轮轴，唐朝在各个方面都应该是中华文明的顶峰。
+ Reply to Thread Page 3 of 14 First 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 13 ... Last Jump to
08-15-2006 04:21 AM #46 mindreader
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Posts 52 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
Originally Posted by FriedRiceNSpice
I do not understand why anyone voted for Tang. The Tang did little to expand
China's borders. Furthermore, the Tang didn't vastly improve China's wealth
or improve China intellectually or scientifically. The Song which followed
the Tang was a much stronger dynasty, and did much to defeat barbarian
tribes and expand Chinese territory before being overwhelmed by the Turks
themselves.
I am sure you are joking. Too see how far the Tang Dynasty expanded, look up
the Battle of Talas. The Song Dynasty can't hold the Li family's collective
jockstraps. And no, the Tang armies were far from weak. Just ask the
Japanese for the "lessons" they learnt.
引用 “ 我不懂怎么有那么多人选唐朝。唐朝几乎没有扩张中国的版图。而且唐朝也没有大量扩充中国的财富，提升中国的科技水平。唐之后的宋朝就强大多了，打败了那些野蛮人部落并扩展了疆界。直到被那些突厥人碾压。”
你开玩笑。看看唐朝的疆界吧，再查查塔拉斯之战。宋朝的败家子们把从李家继承的衣钵败到只剩裤衩。唐朝的军队跟“弱”这个字相差了十万八千里，你去问问那些日本人就知道我们当初是怎么给他们上课的。
Then there are other people saying that "power projection" through the Ming
fleets is a sign of the greatest dynasty. That is also a ridiculous
qualifier. When comparing history, one needs to look at things relative to
other powers of the time. It is asinine to say the Ming Dynasty could
conquor the world where the Qin couldn't. Put simply, there is a 1600 year
technology gap. If one day people in giant space ships are fighting on Mars,
is the Ming Dynasty less impressive then?
另外还有人说通过舰队的兵力投送是明朝夺冠的理由。简直荒谬，跟历史上其他的朝代比较起来，说什么明朝能够征服秦朝征服不了的世界各国，所以明朝比秦朝强？想想吧，他们之间可是隔了条1600年的鸿沟啊。难道说如果有一天人类能够在巨大的宇宙飞船里打火星大战，那时我们也可以把明朝贬得不值一提吗？
Also, I can't believe how anybody in their right mind could vote the Qing
Dynasty as the best, especially to do so based simply on looking at maps.
There is a reason the Qing Dynasty is considered in China, almost without
question, as the worst dynasty ever.
而且我也不明白那些选清朝的人脑子里是怎么想的，眼睛就只会盯着地图。清朝当然算是中国王朝，中国最差的王朝。
Huang Taji was OK. Kangxi was great. It was all downhill from there. If not
for the so called Ten Great Campaigns, Qianlong would be looked upon as a
moron (as he should be).
皇太极还不错。康熙很优秀。但从此之后清朝完全是下坡路。如果不是所谓的“十全武功”，乾隆也不过是个低能儿。
For those that says corruption got especially bad during Cixi, they've
obviously never heard of He Shen, who's wealth is mentioned as a percentage
of the world's total wealth. When he was finally forced to suicide and his
property seized, his wealth exceeded 10 to 15 years worth of the Qing
Dynasty's total income. And he is just the tip of the iceberg. If we are to
include other corrupt officials, well...
至于那几位说慈禧非常腐败的，显然他们还不知道和珅。他的财富一度占到了当时世界总财富的百分之一。但他最后被赐死，财产充公时的总额相当于清政府10到15年的财政收入。而他只不过是庞大的腐败官僚群体中的冰山一角。。。
But by far the greatest setback they did to China was technologically. By
the way, yes they did abandon firearms. As I've said in another thread, if
not for Kangxi's obsession with cannons, the Opium War would have been even
uglier than it was.
但他们在中国造成的最大倒退是科技方面的，他们确实放弃了火器。如果不是康熙曾迷恋大炮，鸦片战争会打得更难看。
01-12-2007 07:14 PM #47 Edinburgher
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Posts 1 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
Originally Posted by Liberator
Remember. the Qing troops did not get enough food, therefore they are slow,
weak, fragile on the battlefield. Most of the money from the goverment had
been stolen by lots of bad goverment officials's pockets.
Actually, i hate Qing, cos the rulers and kings of Qing are originally from
other countries,(close to Russia and North China). they are very cruel
*******, they ruined the China and dragged China into darkness, before Qing,
China's military are advanced, technical, economic and agriculcure are
ranged top 3 in the world, during Qing's ruling, China became very weak...
the most shame for Qing;s rulers are they forced Chinese to change their
hair style and cloth style. so Chinese in Qing 's dressing are ugly...
Last edited by sumdud; 01-12-2007 at 07:53 PM.
引用 “记住。清军甚至没有足够军粮。所以他们在战场上如此缓慢，无力，脆弱。大量军费被政府官员贪污了。”
老实说，我恨清朝。因为统治者来自外国。他们异常凶残。他们坏我河山。清之前，中国的军事一直在进步，科技，经济和农业都名列世界前三。而在清的统治下，中国日益孱弱。。。而清带来的最大耻辱是，他们强迫中国人改装蓄辫，在清朝时的中国人形象竟是如此丑陋。
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01-12-2007 07:58 PM #48 sumdud
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Posts 1,836 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
First, welcome to The Forum.
I see that you are from Edinburgh. Go ahead and enjoy yourself in the Club
room.
首先，欢迎你来到俺们论坛。俺看到你来自爱丁堡。到俱乐部去轻松下吧。
But I hope you understand that this is a strict forum and we do not allow
bashing of any kind, including the Manchus. We do have Manchu members
onboard. It does not help either when the information is biased/connected
with only one kind.
俺希望你能明白这是个严肃的论坛，俺们不允许开涮任何人，包括满族。因为这也有满族会员。针对任何人群的偏见都是没有好处的。
I want Asia on my front porch and America as my backyard.
Disclaimer: By America, I meant the Continent. And yes, I know Asian homes
have neither a backyard nor a porch in the American sense.
Reply With Quote
01-12-2007 08:19 PM #49 kunmingren
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Posts 129 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
Originally Posted by Edinburgher
Actually, i hate Qing, cos the rulers and kings of Qing are originally from
other countries,(close to Russia and North China). they are very cruel
*******, they ruined the China and dragged China into darkness, before Qing,
China's military are advanced, technical, economic and agriculcure are
ranged top 3 in the world, during Qing's ruling, China became very weak...
the most shame for Qing;s rulers are they forced Chinese to change their
hair style and cloth style. so Chinese in Qing 's dressing are ugly...
i would completely disagree with your thinking, Qing werent any worse than
any other dynasty, they didn't 'ruin' china, its just that the rest of the
world caught up with China because there wasnt any inovation since Song
Dynasty ended. If anything, the Ming dynasty was the most abysmal ruling
family in Chinese history. Most notoriously decadent or sadistic or even
illiterate emperors are from that dynasty.
引用 “老实说，我恨清朝。因为统治者来自外国。他们异常凶残。他们坏我河山。清之前，中国的军事一直在进步，科技，经济和农业都名列世界前三。而在清的统治下，中国日益孱弱。。。而清带来的最大耻辱是，他们强迫中国人改装蓄辫，在清朝时的中国人形象竟是如此丑陋。”
我完全不同意你的看法。清朝并不比其他王朝坏，他们没有玩坏中国。只不过是被世界其他国家逐渐赶超了，因为中国自宋代结束就再没有革新了。明朝才是最恶劣的朝代，大部分颓废，暴虐甚至病态的皇帝都是明朝的。
01-16-2007 11:07 PM #50 Spike
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Posts 142 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
The Tang period was one of the most glorious in Chinese history; it was a
marvel of culture, diplomacy, and military conquest. The early Tang emperors
built strong relationships with certain nomadic tribes and cleverly
exploited divisions among their enemies from without. Using their
technological superiority, the Tang armies expanded into Vietnam, Manchuria,
and the TarimBasin up to the Pamirs and the TalasRiver (Remarkably Korea
stalemated the Tang but accepted tributary status). Culturally the Tang knew
no rivals, porcelain was perfected during the Tang, and printing was
invented. Some of the greatest poets in Chinese history were from the Tang,
ie. Du Fu and Li Bai. Chang'an boasted 2 million inhabitants from all over
the world: Arabs, Jews, Persians, Koreans, Japanese, etc. Korea, Japan, and
Vietnam were heavily influenced by Tang China and began to borrow heavily
from Chinese culture.
唐朝是中国历史上最辉煌的时期，包括文化的奇葩，外交和军事征服。唐朝前期的皇帝与一些游牧部落建立了稳固的关系，并聪明地分化了他的敌人。运用高超的科技，唐军纵深挺进到了越南，满洲里，塔里木盆地，帕米尔高原和塔拉斯河。（高丽人挡住了唐军但最终还是接受了朝贡体系）唐朝文化上无可匹敌。唐代的瓷器堪称完美，还发明了印刷术（雕版印刷--译者注）。中国古代一些最伟大的诗人来自唐朝，像杜甫和李白。长安城是世界之都，居民超过200万，其中有阿拉伯人，犹太人，波斯人，高丽人，日本人。深受唐文化影响并将之搬运借鉴的国家有朝鲜，日本，越南等等。
The Song Dynasty is often seen as 'weak' by Chinese because it fell to the
Mongols, resulting in the poorly run and discriminatory Yuan dynasty.
However, the Song managed to hold out for 40 years against the Mongols who
were aided by Chinese engineers and military technicians. In fact, Genghis
Khan first sent his Golden Horde west, overrunning all of Russia before they
turned back in Hungary with the Great Khan's death. Despite being the
closest in proximity to the Mongolian homelands the Song were probably one
of the more successful holdouts to Mongol dominance, not able to exploit bad
sea weather like the Japanese and Javanese, or extreme distances like the
Mamluks.
宋朝一般被中国人看作孱弱因为它被蒙古征服了，宋王室被元朝赶尽杀绝。尽管如此，它曾经抵挡了被中国工匠和军事科技滋养的蒙古人超过40年。实际上，成吉思汗曾派他的黄金家族往西占领了全部的俄罗斯，直到在匈牙利获知大可汗的死讯。如果不是毗邻蒙古本土，宋朝很可能抵挡住蒙古人的狂潮，可惜它不像日本有“神风",布尔吉的马穆鲁克有距离蒙古的超远路程。
01-27-2007 03:44 PM #51 Ryz05
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Posts 385 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
I choose the PRC because of their destructive potential (they have nukes).
Also, China has never been so secure along its borders, as opposed to the
early days when there were threats from the North (Mongols and Huns).
Otherwise I would've chosen Qin because of the unification and the impact
the period had on military ideology.
我选择了中华人民共和国，因为他们的毁灭性的潜力。（他们有核弹）而且中国现在的国境线是最平静的，不像以前面临着来自北方的威胁（蒙古和匈奴）。要么我就选择秦，因为它对六国的统一，还有它当时的军事理念带来的冲击。
http://www.ltaaa.com/wtfy/2290.html
http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/ ... ic-military-68.html正文翻译:原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.com 翻译：trytrytry
08-30-2005 09:38 AM #1 Liberator
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Posts 270 Chinas best dynastic military?
Which Chinese dynasty do you think has the most glorious military?
你觉得中国哪一个朝代的军事实力最为耀眼？
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Posts 270 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
but during yuan there wasn't much military advancement. they basically used
superior cavalries to conquer everything, and that's why the mongols were
truly amazing.
In the Yuan dynasty of China. Chinese generals and soldiers were on
conquests and attacked Persia, and European countries. But did not kept the
lands.
引用 “不过元朝的军事没怎么进步啊。他们还是在用那无敌的骑兵碾压一切，不过这也是他们牛B之处了吧。”
元朝时候中国的将领和士兵们一直在进攻波斯和欧洲国家，但他们征服了之后没有守住那些土地。
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08-31-2005 09:32 PM #32 FriedRiceNSpice
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Posts 1,444 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
The Yuan dynasty shouldn't count because they were Mongol invaders. The Qing
dynasty should count because the Manchus are considered Chinese. Also, the
Manchus were accepted by the Chinese as rulers while the Mongols were not.
That is why the Yuan fell after only 80 years.
元朝不能算数，他们是蒙古入侵者。清朝不一样，因为满族已经被认为是中国人了。也正因此满族统治者得到了中国人的承认，不像蒙古人。这也是为什么元朝在80年后就分崩离析。
09-01-2005 08:20 AM #33 J T Z
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Posts 6 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
Tang was never a military power house. it is known for its culture and
science. Song was small and weak beacuse of all the boarder confilct with
other chinese ethnic groups. and none of those nations during Song era was
really big and well funded. thats why mongols just rolled through them all.
Of course the mongols were amazing too.
唐从来不是个以武力著称的朝代，而是以文化和科学闻名。宋朝由于频繁地与中国其他少数民族发生边境冲突而版图缩小，国家疲弱。宋朝时中国没有任何一个民族政权是真正强大的，所以他们都被蒙古人碾压了。当然蒙古人也实在太猛了。
It basicly should boils down to: Han, Ming, Qing. Han is 3rd largest dynasty
ever at its peak if you count in yuan. and during its time Kao Tsu, wudi and
other empreors have expanded the boarder and opened up trade routes.(the
silkroad) For its time it was no doubt one of the great powers. Even the
Romans at the time couldnt match them.(206 b.c. - 220 A.D.) At that time the
Romans were involved in Macedonian Wars. And these wars for the most of time
were at a small scale thats fought between Greek city-states, and Syria. Kao
Tsu also pushed out the Huns that was in western china and beyond, which
enabled the silkroad to be open. Huns later dominated most of europe and the
Romans couldnt really stop them. So in terms of territory size and amry size
and technology Han at its time was far greater than any nation.
基本上值得一选的朝代是，汉，明，清。其中汉朝是疆域第三大的王朝，即使把元朝也算进去的话。汉高祖，汉武帝等汉朝皇帝都拓展了疆土并开辟了贸易通道（丝绸之路）。就当时来说汉朝无疑是世界强国。甚至当时的罗马(206 b.c. - 220 A.D.)也比不上汉朝。当时的罗马正进行着马其顿战争，大多数战斗都只是与希腊城邦和叙利亚的小规模交战。而汉高祖已经彻底驱逐了盘踞在中国西部的匈奴人，并让丝绸之路通畅无阻。匈奴人后来支配了大部分的欧洲而罗马人却难以招架。所以从领土面积，军队规模和科学技术等方面来看，汉朝当时远远超越了世界上的其他国家。
As Ming and Qing, I think FriedRiceNSpice explained pretty well on why it
was a great military power.
至于明和清，我认为香辣炒饭（网友）已经对其军事力做了很好的阐述。
The problem with most Chinese dyansty is that none of the rulers were
ambitious enough. Han, Tang, Ming even part of Qing could easily conqure
every other nation near by. And project its power over europe and even find
america. But due to that they never got anywhere. and even for the ones that
did explore, and seeked out others. because of china's technology were so
much more advenced compare to other powers at the time. The explorers comes
back with nothing new, and the king/empreor would assume that every other
nation around the world are nothing compare to him therefore compeletly
ignore other nations, unless they come to him. Over the time this settles in
and became the close door policy. And China became more and more isolated
and shortsighted that it stop most of technological and civil advencements.
Until rest of the world caught up and surpassed them.
Last edited by J T Z; 09-01-2005 at 08:38 AM.
对于大部分的中国王朝来说都存在一个缺陷，就是都没有产生一位有着足够野心的统治者。汉，唐，明，甚至前期的清，都能够轻易征服中国周边的国家，并且能将力量延伸至欧洲大陆，甚至发现美洲。但他们呆在东方哪也不去。连他们的探险者也是如此，中国当时的科技远高于任何一个国家，但当探险者回来时却没有带回任何新鲜事物。而皇帝们就以为外国没有一样东西能比得上天朝，完全忽略了世界上其他国家的存在，直到别人来到自家门口。久而久之，这演变成了闭关政策。中国由此变得越来越孤立和短视，并停止了大部分的科技研发和文明进程。于是，世界上的其他国家最终赶上并超过了他们。
09-01-2005 10:43 AM #34 Liberator
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Posts 270 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
Song was small and weak beacuse of all the boarder confilct with other
chinese ethnic groups.
Northern Song or Southern Song???
引用 “宋朝由于频繁地与中国其他少数民族发生边境冲突而版图缩小，国家疲弱。”
北宋还是南宋？
09-01-2005 04:37 PM #35 Obcession
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Posts 395 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
Originally Posted by FriedRiceNSpice
The Yuan dynasty shouldn't count because they were Mongol invaders. The Qing
dynasty should count because the Manchus are considered Chinese. Also, the
Manchus were accepted by the Chinese as rulers while the Mongols were not.
That is why the Yuan fell after only 80 years.
Just like to point out, Manchus weren't accepted by Chinese either. "Rebel
against Qing, Reinstall Ming" (返清扶明(not sure if I spelled the third
character right) ) was a common thing to be said by Chinese rebels that
wants the Ming back and get rid of Qing.
引用 “元朝不能算数，他们是蒙古入侵者。清朝不一样，因为满族已经被认为是中国人了。也正因此满族统治者得到了中国人的承认，不像蒙古人。这也是为什么元朝在80年后就分崩离析。”
我想指出的是，满族当时也不认为是中国人。“反清复明”（我不是很清楚这些汉字的拼写）是那些中国革命家常用的一个口号，他们想要明朝回来，摆脱清朝。
09-01-2005 04:45 PM #36 Liberator
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Posts 270 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
返清扶明
It says "Against the Qing, serve the Ming".
这上面写的字是。。。“反清复明”(囧）
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.com 翻译：trytrytry
Well, I think rebels who say that wants to go backword.
嘛，我想那些革命家是想回到过去罢。
At that time, Taiwan is wearing Ming uniforms and not Qing, no pigtails.
They also wanted independence. But later was reunified by Qing China.
当时台湾还依然通用明朝服饰，脑后也没有猪尾。他们也想独立出去，但随后被清统一了。
09-01-2005 06:11 PM #37 T-U-P
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Posts 856 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
Originally Posted by Obcession
Just like to point out, Manchus weren't accepted by Chinese either. "Rebel
against Qing, Reinstall Ming" (返清扶明(not sure if I spelled the third
character right) ) was a common thing to be said by Chinese rebels that
wants the Ming back and get rid of Qing.
but that was only in the early stages of Qing, later (after Kang Xi)
everyone pretty much accepted Qing as their government.
引用 “ 我想指出的是，满族当时也不认为是中国人。“反清复明”（我不是很清楚这些汉字的拼写）是那些中国革命家常用的一个口号，他们想要明朝回来，摆脱清朝。”
但这只是清初的事情，康熙之后几乎所有人都认可了清朝。
09-01-2005 09:31 PM #38 President
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Posts 117 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
Originally Posted by FriedRiceNSpice
The Yuan dynasty shouldn't count because they were Mongol invaders. The Qing
dynasty should count because the Manchus are considered Chinese. Also, the
Manchus were accepted by the Chinese as rulers while the Mongols were not.
That is why the Yuan fell after only 80 years.
but after long time blood-mixed, there is no pure Hans any more. i heard,
some chinese experts say every people in china has percentage on mongolia
blood.
引用 “元朝不能算数，他们是蒙古入侵者。清朝不一样，因为满族已经被认为是中国人了。也正因此满族统治者得到了中国人的承认，不像蒙古人。这也是为什么元朝在80年后就分崩离析。”
但是经过长时间的混血，已经没有纯种的汉人了。我听一些中国的专家说每个中国人体内都流着蒙古人的血。
09-01-2005 09:54 PM #39 FriedRiceNSpice
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Posts 1,444 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
At that time, Taiwan is wearing Ming uniforms and not Qing, no pigtails.
They also wanted independence. But later was reunified by Qing China.
Wow, looks like history is on the verge of repeating itself. Taiwan still
wears KMT uniform, not CCP uniform. But CCP China will reunify Taiwan.
引用 “ 当时台湾还依然通用明朝服饰，脑后也没有猪尾。他们也想独立出去，但随后被清统一了。”
哇，看来历史还真是不断在重复。台湾依然身着国民党制服，而不是中共的。但共产党中国会重新统一台湾。
09-05-2005 10:29 AM #40 Liberator
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Posts 270 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
The Yuan dynasty shouldn't count because they were Mongol invaders.
They do count mate. The emperor is not Chinese but the generals, troops and
money used, siege weapons, equipments and supplies anre mostly Chinese.
引用 "元朝不能算数，他们是蒙古入侵者。”
元朝怎么不算？虽然皇帝不是中国人，但他手下的将军，部队，货币，攻城武器，装备和补给都是中国的。
09-12-2005 11:08 PM #41 muyang523
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Location Vancouver,Canada
Posts 82 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
I liked the Yuan dynasty at one point they had the largest empire of all
time. I think Qing was strong in the beginning , but they got weaker and
weaker. This is the same with all the dynastys.
我喜欢元朝就是因为它一直是最大的帝国。我想清朝刚开始时是强大的，但之后越来越弱。这也是所有王朝都共通的一点。
09-12-2005 11:12 PM #42 FriedRiceNSpice
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Join Date Aug 2005
Location Seattle, WA
Posts 1,444 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
Originally Posted by muyang523
I liked the Yuan dynasty at one point they had the largest empire of all
time. I think Qing was strong in the beginning , but they got weaker and
weaker. This is the same with all the dynastys.
It won't be the case for the People's Republic of China!
引用 “ 我喜欢元朝就是因为它一直是最大的帝国。我想清朝刚开始时是强大的，但之后越来越弱。这也是所有王朝都共通的一点。”
中华人民共和国将打破这一宿命！
09-13-2005 08:42 AM #43 Obcession
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Join Date Aug 2005
Location ...
Posts 395 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
Every great nation/empire/dynasty has its rise, maturity, and fall. The main
reason many dynasties fell previously in China was because of corruption.
The emperor wanted everything to himself and built big projects using slave
labourers. Or the emperor's subordinates were very corrupted and started
taxing the people like crazy. This resulted in many peasant uprisings which
overthrew the old government and installed a new one that thinks for the
people. But over time this government will become corrupt as well and
history repeats itself. That's why the CCP either needs to crack down on
corruption more, or have multi party elections.
每个伟大的民族，帝国，王朝都盈虚有数。中国历来王朝衰败的主要原因都是因为腐败。帝王想拥有一切，大兴土木，征伕徭役。或者底下官员堕落腐化，刮民若狂。这就导致了农民起义，推翻旧政府，建立新的为人民着想的政权。但随着时间的流逝新政府也将再度变得腐败，历史就这样重复。同样，如果再让中国的腐败加剧，中共也要倒台，或者改制成多党派选举。
01-02-2006 10:31 PM #44 patriot
New Member
Join Date Jan 2006
Posts 85 I voted for the Warring State because there's a lot of famous
battles involved. I don't think the voting instruction is quite clear
whether it's asking for the best/famous military time or a good army
I was wondering why the Han dynasty wasn't involve in this poll. I would
definitely vote for it if it's there.
Last edited by Gollevainen; 01-03-2006 at 04:23 AM. Reason: No douple
postring, expecially no oneliners!!!
我投了战国时代，因为那时有很多著名的战役。我对投票标准不太明白，到底是选出最辉煌最有名的军事时期还是最强大的军队？
如果可以选汉朝的话我一定选汉朝。
08-15-2006 02:02 AM #45 Tassadar
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Join Date Jul 2006
Posts 12 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
Originally Posted by J T Z
With all due respect, I beg to differ. In terms of military power, there is
only one time in Han(under Han Wu Di) that china is strong. Also, the
military organization in Han is obsolete and ineffective. On the paper it
works fine: with every peasant in china as a soldier, china will have
millions. However, as Qian Mu(钱穆）and many other historians pointed
out: that everyone is a solider effectively equates none is a soldier. The
poor training, poor equipment and poor morale is inevitable given the
organization method of military of Han.
请允许我提出异议。就军事能力来说，汉朝只有一小段时期（汉武帝时期）是强大的。而且汉朝的军事体系非常落后低效。只是在纸面上写得好看，譬如每个农民都可作为军人，这样一来就能有数百万军队。其实就像钱穆等历史学家指出的:每个人都是军人实际上等于没有真正的军人。低劣的训练，低劣的装备，低劣的士气，对汉朝的军事体系来说就是不可避免的。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.com 翻译：trytrytry
On the other hand, Tang has a different approach. By organizing militaries
as self-supplied production units(府兵制), the training and the equipement of
military improved with no burden on goverment. Although the organizaiton
method rotten and deterorated latter on due to human failures, the first
half of Tang(初唐-盛唐) was arguably the strongest period of chinese military.
另一方面，唐朝走的是不同的道路。半自给的军垦式军事体系。训练和装备都不会加重政府负担。可惜这套体系后来因为人性弱点变质了。唐朝的前半段绝对是中国军事最强的时期。
As a chinese myself, I do admire the conquer of Han and other dynasties.
However, a more clear look at the history reveals that Tang is the zenith of
Chinese civilization for almost all aspects with no exception of military.
作为一个中国人，我很欣赏汉朝的征服者和其他帝王。但是纵览历史的轮轴，唐朝在各个方面都应该是中华文明的顶峰。
+ Reply to Thread Page 3 of 14 First 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 13 ... Last Jump to
08-15-2006 04:21 AM #46 mindreader
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Posts 52 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
Originally Posted by FriedRiceNSpice
I do not understand why anyone voted for Tang. The Tang did little to expand
China's borders. Furthermore, the Tang didn't vastly improve China's wealth
or improve China intellectually or scientifically. The Song which followed
the Tang was a much stronger dynasty, and did much to defeat barbarian
tribes and expand Chinese territory before being overwhelmed by the Turks
themselves.
I am sure you are joking. Too see how far the Tang Dynasty expanded, look up
the Battle of Talas. The Song Dynasty can't hold the Li family's collective
jockstraps. And no, the Tang armies were far from weak. Just ask the
Japanese for the "lessons" they learnt.
引用 “ 我不懂怎么有那么多人选唐朝。唐朝几乎没有扩张中国的版图。而且唐朝也没有大量扩充中国的财富，提升中国的科技水平。唐之后的宋朝就强大多了，打败了那些野蛮人部落并扩展了疆界。直到被那些突厥人碾压。”
你开玩笑。看看唐朝的疆界吧，再查查塔拉斯之战。宋朝的败家子们把从李家继承的衣钵败到只剩裤衩。唐朝的军队跟“弱”这个字相差了十万八千里，你去问问那些日本人就知道我们当初是怎么给他们上课的。
Then there are other people saying that "power projection" through the Ming
fleets is a sign of the greatest dynasty. That is also a ridiculous
qualifier. When comparing history, one needs to look at things relative to
other powers of the time. It is asinine to say the Ming Dynasty could
conquor the world where the Qin couldn't. Put simply, there is a 1600 year
technology gap. If one day people in giant space ships are fighting on Mars,
is the Ming Dynasty less impressive then?
另外还有人说通过舰队的兵力投送是明朝夺冠的理由。简直荒谬，跟历史上其他的朝代比较起来，说什么明朝能够征服秦朝征服不了的世界各国，所以明朝比秦朝强？想想吧，他们之间可是隔了条1600年的鸿沟啊。难道说如果有一天人类能够在巨大的宇宙飞船里打火星大战，那时我们也可以把明朝贬得不值一提吗？
Also, I can't believe how anybody in their right mind could vote the Qing
Dynasty as the best, especially to do so based simply on looking at maps.
There is a reason the Qing Dynasty is considered in China, almost without
question, as the worst dynasty ever.
而且我也不明白那些选清朝的人脑子里是怎么想的，眼睛就只会盯着地图。清朝当然算是中国王朝，中国最差的王朝。
Huang Taji was OK. Kangxi was great. It was all downhill from there. If not
for the so called Ten Great Campaigns, Qianlong would be looked upon as a
moron (as he should be).
皇太极还不错。康熙很优秀。但从此之后清朝完全是下坡路。如果不是所谓的“十全武功”，乾隆也不过是个低能儿。
For those that says corruption got especially bad during Cixi, they've
obviously never heard of He Shen, who's wealth is mentioned as a percentage
of the world's total wealth. When he was finally forced to suicide and his
property seized, his wealth exceeded 10 to 15 years worth of the Qing
Dynasty's total income. And he is just the tip of the iceberg. If we are to
include other corrupt officials, well...
至于那几位说慈禧非常腐败的，显然他们还不知道和珅。他的财富一度占到了当时世界总财富的百分之一。但他最后被赐死，财产充公时的总额相当于清政府10到15年的财政收入。而他只不过是庞大的腐败官僚群体中的冰山一角。。。
But by far the greatest setback they did to China was technologically. By
the way, yes they did abandon firearms. As I've said in another thread, if
not for Kangxi's obsession with cannons, the Opium War would have been even
uglier than it was.
但他们在中国造成的最大倒退是科技方面的，他们确实放弃了火器。如果不是康熙曾迷恋大炮，鸦片战争会打得更难看。
01-12-2007 07:14 PM #47 Edinburgher
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Join Date Jan 2007
Posts 1 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
Originally Posted by Liberator
Remember. the Qing troops did not get enough food, therefore they are slow,
weak, fragile on the battlefield. Most of the money from the goverment had
been stolen by lots of bad goverment officials's pockets.
Actually, i hate Qing, cos the rulers and kings of Qing are originally from
other countries,(close to Russia and North China). they are very cruel
*******, they ruined the China and dragged China into darkness, before Qing,
China's military are advanced, technical, economic and agriculcure are
ranged top 3 in the world, during Qing's ruling, China became very weak...
the most shame for Qing;s rulers are they forced Chinese to change their
hair style and cloth style. so Chinese in Qing 's dressing are ugly...
Last edited by sumdud; 01-12-2007 at 07:53 PM.
引用 “记住。清军甚至没有足够军粮。所以他们在战场上如此缓慢，无力，脆弱。大量军费被政府官员贪污了。”
老实说，我恨清朝。因为统治者来自外国。他们异常凶残。他们坏我河山。清之前，中国的军事一直在进步，科技，经济和农业都名列世界前三。而在清的统治下，中国日益孱弱。。。而清带来的最大耻辱是，他们强迫中国人改装蓄辫，在清朝时的中国人形象竟是如此丑陋。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.com 翻译：trytrytry
01-12-2007 07:58 PM #48 sumdud
Super Moderator
Join Date Aug 2005
Location SF
Posts 1,836 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
First, welcome to The Forum.
I see that you are from Edinburgh. Go ahead and enjoy yourself in the Club
room.
首先，欢迎你来到俺们论坛。俺看到你来自爱丁堡。到俱乐部去轻松下吧。
But I hope you understand that this is a strict forum and we do not allow
bashing of any kind, including the Manchus. We do have Manchu members
onboard. It does not help either when the information is biased/connected
with only one kind.
俺希望你能明白这是个严肃的论坛，俺们不允许开涮任何人，包括满族。因为这也有满族会员。针对任何人群的偏见都是没有好处的。
I want Asia on my front porch and America as my backyard.
Disclaimer: By America, I meant the Continent. And yes, I know Asian homes
have neither a backyard nor a porch in the American sense.
Reply With Quote
01-12-2007 08:19 PM #49 kunmingren
Member
Join Date Aug 2006
Location Maryland
Posts 129 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
Originally Posted by Edinburgher
Actually, i hate Qing, cos the rulers and kings of Qing are originally from
other countries,(close to Russia and North China). they are very cruel
*******, they ruined the China and dragged China into darkness, before Qing,
China's military are advanced, technical, economic and agriculcure are
ranged top 3 in the world, during Qing's ruling, China became very weak...
the most shame for Qing;s rulers are they forced Chinese to change their
hair style and cloth style. so Chinese in Qing 's dressing are ugly...
i would completely disagree with your thinking, Qing werent any worse than
any other dynasty, they didn't 'ruin' china, its just that the rest of the
world caught up with China because there wasnt any inovation since Song
Dynasty ended. If anything, the Ming dynasty was the most abysmal ruling
family in Chinese history. Most notoriously decadent or sadistic or even
illiterate emperors are from that dynasty.
引用 “老实说，我恨清朝。因为统治者来自外国。他们异常凶残。他们坏我河山。清之前，中国的军事一直在进步，科技，经济和农业都名列世界前三。而在清的统治下，中国日益孱弱。。。而清带来的最大耻辱是，他们强迫中国人改装蓄辫，在清朝时的中国人形象竟是如此丑陋。”
我完全不同意你的看法。清朝并不比其他王朝坏，他们没有玩坏中国。只不过是被世界其他国家逐渐赶超了，因为中国自宋代结束就再没有革新了。明朝才是最恶劣的朝代，大部分颓废，暴虐甚至病态的皇帝都是明朝的。
01-16-2007 11:07 PM #50 Spike
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Join Date Jan 2006
Location Canada
Posts 142 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
The Tang period was one of the most glorious in Chinese history; it was a
marvel of culture, diplomacy, and military conquest. The early Tang emperors
built strong relationships with certain nomadic tribes and cleverly
exploited divisions among their enemies from without. Using their
technological superiority, the Tang armies expanded into Vietnam, Manchuria,
and the TarimBasin up to the Pamirs and the TalasRiver (Remarkably Korea
stalemated the Tang but accepted tributary status). Culturally the Tang knew
no rivals, porcelain was perfected during the Tang, and printing was
invented. Some of the greatest poets in Chinese history were from the Tang,
ie. Du Fu and Li Bai. Chang'an boasted 2 million inhabitants from all over
the world: Arabs, Jews, Persians, Koreans, Japanese, etc. Korea, Japan, and
Vietnam were heavily influenced by Tang China and began to borrow heavily
from Chinese culture.
唐朝是中国历史上最辉煌的时期，包括文化的奇葩，外交和军事征服。唐朝前期的皇帝与一些游牧部落建立了稳固的关系，并聪明地分化了他的敌人。运用高超的科技，唐军纵深挺进到了越南，满洲里，塔里木盆地，帕米尔高原和塔拉斯河。（高丽人挡住了唐军但最终还是接受了朝贡体系）唐朝文化上无可匹敌。唐代的瓷器堪称完美，还发明了印刷术（雕版印刷--译者注）。中国古代一些最伟大的诗人来自唐朝，像杜甫和李白。长安城是世界之都，居民超过200万，其中有阿拉伯人，犹太人，波斯人，高丽人，日本人。深受唐文化影响并将之搬运借鉴的国家有朝鲜，日本，越南等等。
The Song Dynasty is often seen as 'weak' by Chinese because it fell to the
Mongols, resulting in the poorly run and discriminatory Yuan dynasty.
However, the Song managed to hold out for 40 years against the Mongols who
were aided by Chinese engineers and military technicians. In fact, Genghis
Khan first sent his Golden Horde west, overrunning all of Russia before they
turned back in Hungary with the Great Khan's death. Despite being the
closest in proximity to the Mongolian homelands the Song were probably one
of the more successful holdouts to Mongol dominance, not able to exploit bad
sea weather like the Japanese and Javanese, or extreme distances like the
Mamluks.
宋朝一般被中国人看作孱弱因为它被蒙古征服了，宋王室被元朝赶尽杀绝。尽管如此，它曾经抵挡了被中国工匠和军事科技滋养的蒙古人超过40年。实际上，成吉思汗曾派他的黄金家族往西占领了全部的俄罗斯，直到在匈牙利获知大可汗的死讯。如果不是毗邻蒙古本土，宋朝很可能抵挡住蒙古人的狂潮，可惜它不像日本有“神风",布尔吉的马穆鲁克有距离蒙古的超远路程。
01-27-2007 03:44 PM #51 Ryz05
Member
Join Date Jan 2007
Posts 385 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
I choose the PRC because of their destructive potential (they have nukes).
Also, China has never been so secure along its borders, as opposed to the
early days when there were threats from the North (Mongols and Huns).
Otherwise I would've chosen Qin because of the unification and the impact
the period had on military ideology.
我选择了中华人民共和国，因为他们的毁灭性的潜力。（他们有核弹）而且中国现在的国境线是最平静的，不像以前面临着来自北方的威胁（蒙古和匈奴）。要么我就选择秦，因为它对六国的统一，还有它当时的军事理念带来的冲击。
http://www.ltaaa.com/wtfy/2290.html
你觉得中国哪一个朝代的军事实力最为耀眼？译文来源:原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.com 翻译：trytrytry
http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/ ... ic-military-68.html正文翻译:原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.com 翻译：trytrytry
08-30-2005 09:38 AM #1 Liberator
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Posts 270 Chinas best dynastic military?
Which Chinese dynasty do you think has the most glorious military?
你觉得中国哪一个朝代的军事实力最为耀眼？
评论翻译: Member
Join Date Aug 2005
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Posts 270 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
but during yuan there wasn't much military advancement. they basically used
superior cavalries to conquer everything, and that's why the mongols were
truly amazing.
In the Yuan dynasty of China. Chinese generals and soldiers were on
conquests and attacked Persia, and European countries. But did not kept the
lands.
引用 “不过元朝的军事没怎么进步啊。他们还是在用那无敌的骑兵碾压一切，不过这也是他们牛B之处了吧。”
元朝时候中国的将领和士兵们一直在进攻波斯和欧洲国家，但他们征服了之后没有守住那些土地。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.com 翻译：trytrytry
08-31-2005 09:32 PM #32 FriedRiceNSpice
Senior Member
Join Date Aug 2005
Location Seattle, WA
Posts 1,444 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
The Yuan dynasty shouldn't count because they were Mongol invaders. The Qing
dynasty should count because the Manchus are considered Chinese. Also, the
Manchus were accepted by the Chinese as rulers while the Mongols were not.
That is why the Yuan fell after only 80 years.
元朝不能算数，他们是蒙古入侵者。清朝不一样，因为满族已经被认为是中国人了。也正因此满族统治者得到了中国人的承认，不像蒙古人。这也是为什么元朝在80年后就分崩离析。
09-01-2005 08:20 AM #33 J T Z
New Member
Join Date Aug 2005
Posts 6 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
Tang was never a military power house. it is known for its culture and
science. Song was small and weak beacuse of all the boarder confilct with
other chinese ethnic groups. and none of those nations during Song era was
really big and well funded. thats why mongols just rolled through them all.
Of course the mongols were amazing too.
唐从来不是个以武力著称的朝代，而是以文化和科学闻名。宋朝由于频繁地与中国其他少数民族发生边境冲突而版图缩小，国家疲弱。宋朝时中国没有任何一个民族政权是真正强大的，所以他们都被蒙古人碾压了。当然蒙古人也实在太猛了。
It basicly should boils down to: Han, Ming, Qing. Han is 3rd largest dynasty
ever at its peak if you count in yuan. and during its time Kao Tsu, wudi and
other empreors have expanded the boarder and opened up trade routes.(the
silkroad) For its time it was no doubt one of the great powers. Even the
Romans at the time couldnt match them.(206 b.c. - 220 A.D.) At that time the
Romans were involved in Macedonian Wars. And these wars for the most of time
were at a small scale thats fought between Greek city-states, and Syria. Kao
Tsu also pushed out the Huns that was in western china and beyond, which
enabled the silkroad to be open. Huns later dominated most of europe and the
Romans couldnt really stop them. So in terms of territory size and amry size
and technology Han at its time was far greater than any nation.
基本上值得一选的朝代是，汉，明，清。其中汉朝是疆域第三大的王朝，即使把元朝也算进去的话。汉高祖，汉武帝等汉朝皇帝都拓展了疆土并开辟了贸易通道（丝绸之路）。就当时来说汉朝无疑是世界强国。甚至当时的罗马(206 b.c. - 220 A.D.)也比不上汉朝。当时的罗马正进行着马其顿战争，大多数战斗都只是与希腊城邦和叙利亚的小规模交战。而汉高祖已经彻底驱逐了盘踞在中国西部的匈奴人，并让丝绸之路通畅无阻。匈奴人后来支配了大部分的欧洲而罗马人却难以招架。所以从领土面积，军队规模和科学技术等方面来看，汉朝当时远远超越了世界上的其他国家。
As Ming and Qing, I think FriedRiceNSpice explained pretty well on why it
was a great military power.
至于明和清，我认为香辣炒饭（网友）已经对其军事力做了很好的阐述。
The problem with most Chinese dyansty is that none of the rulers were
ambitious enough. Han, Tang, Ming even part of Qing could easily conqure
every other nation near by. And project its power over europe and even find
america. But due to that they never got anywhere. and even for the ones that
did explore, and seeked out others. because of china's technology were so
much more advenced compare to other powers at the time. The explorers comes
back with nothing new, and the king/empreor would assume that every other
nation around the world are nothing compare to him therefore compeletly
ignore other nations, unless they come to him. Over the time this settles in
and became the close door policy. And China became more and more isolated
and shortsighted that it stop most of technological and civil advencements.
Until rest of the world caught up and surpassed them.
Last edited by J T Z; 09-01-2005 at 08:38 AM.
对于大部分的中国王朝来说都存在一个缺陷，就是都没有产生一位有着足够野心的统治者。汉，唐，明，甚至前期的清，都能够轻易征服中国周边的国家，并且能将力量延伸至欧洲大陆，甚至发现美洲。但他们呆在东方哪也不去。连他们的探险者也是如此，中国当时的科技远高于任何一个国家，但当探险者回来时却没有带回任何新鲜事物。而皇帝们就以为外国没有一样东西能比得上天朝，完全忽略了世界上其他国家的存在，直到别人来到自家门口。久而久之，这演变成了闭关政策。中国由此变得越来越孤立和短视，并停止了大部分的科技研发和文明进程。于是，世界上的其他国家最终赶上并超过了他们。
09-01-2005 10:43 AM #34 Liberator
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Posts 270 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
Song was small and weak beacuse of all the boarder confilct with other
chinese ethnic groups.
Northern Song or Southern Song???
引用 “宋朝由于频繁地与中国其他少数民族发生边境冲突而版图缩小，国家疲弱。”
北宋还是南宋？
09-01-2005 04:37 PM #35 Obcession
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Posts 395 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
Originally Posted by FriedRiceNSpice
The Yuan dynasty shouldn't count because they were Mongol invaders. The Qing
dynasty should count because the Manchus are considered Chinese. Also, the
Manchus were accepted by the Chinese as rulers while the Mongols were not.
That is why the Yuan fell after only 80 years.
Just like to point out, Manchus weren't accepted by Chinese either. "Rebel
against Qing, Reinstall Ming" (返清扶明(not sure if I spelled the third
character right) ) was a common thing to be said by Chinese rebels that
wants the Ming back and get rid of Qing.
引用 “元朝不能算数，他们是蒙古入侵者。清朝不一样，因为满族已经被认为是中国人了。也正因此满族统治者得到了中国人的承认，不像蒙古人。这也是为什么元朝在80年后就分崩离析。”
我想指出的是，满族当时也不认为是中国人。“反清复明”（我不是很清楚这些汉字的拼写）是那些中国革命家常用的一个口号，他们想要明朝回来，摆脱清朝。
09-01-2005 04:45 PM #36 Liberator
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Posts 270 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
返清扶明
It says "Against the Qing, serve the Ming".
这上面写的字是。。。“反清复明”(囧）
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.com 翻译：trytrytry
Well, I think rebels who say that wants to go backword.
嘛，我想那些革命家是想回到过去罢。
At that time, Taiwan is wearing Ming uniforms and not Qing, no pigtails.
They also wanted independence. But later was reunified by Qing China.
当时台湾还依然通用明朝服饰，脑后也没有猪尾。他们也想独立出去，但随后被清统一了。
09-01-2005 06:11 PM #37 T-U-P
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Posts 856 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
Originally Posted by Obcession
Just like to point out, Manchus weren't accepted by Chinese either. "Rebel
against Qing, Reinstall Ming" (返清扶明(not sure if I spelled the third
character right) ) was a common thing to be said by Chinese rebels that
wants the Ming back and get rid of Qing.
but that was only in the early stages of Qing, later (after Kang Xi)
everyone pretty much accepted Qing as their government.
引用 “ 我想指出的是，满族当时也不认为是中国人。“反清复明”（我不是很清楚这些汉字的拼写）是那些中国革命家常用的一个口号，他们想要明朝回来，摆脱清朝。”
但这只是清初的事情，康熙之后几乎所有人都认可了清朝。
09-01-2005 09:31 PM #38 President
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Posts 117 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
Originally Posted by FriedRiceNSpice
The Yuan dynasty shouldn't count because they were Mongol invaders. The Qing
dynasty should count because the Manchus are considered Chinese. Also, the
Manchus were accepted by the Chinese as rulers while the Mongols were not.
That is why the Yuan fell after only 80 years.
but after long time blood-mixed, there is no pure Hans any more. i heard,
some chinese experts say every people in china has percentage on mongolia
blood.
引用 “元朝不能算数，他们是蒙古入侵者。清朝不一样，因为满族已经被认为是中国人了。也正因此满族统治者得到了中国人的承认，不像蒙古人。这也是为什么元朝在80年后就分崩离析。”
但是经过长时间的混血，已经没有纯种的汉人了。我听一些中国的专家说每个中国人体内都流着蒙古人的血。
09-01-2005 09:54 PM #39 FriedRiceNSpice
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Posts 1,444 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
At that time, Taiwan is wearing Ming uniforms and not Qing, no pigtails.
They also wanted independence. But later was reunified by Qing China.
Wow, looks like history is on the verge of repeating itself. Taiwan still
wears KMT uniform, not CCP uniform. But CCP China will reunify Taiwan.
引用 “ 当时台湾还依然通用明朝服饰，脑后也没有猪尾。他们也想独立出去，但随后被清统一了。”
哇，看来历史还真是不断在重复。台湾依然身着国民党制服，而不是中共的。但共产党中国会重新统一台湾。
09-05-2005 10:29 AM #40 Liberator
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Posts 270 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
The Yuan dynasty shouldn't count because they were Mongol invaders.
They do count mate. The emperor is not Chinese but the generals, troops and
money used, siege weapons, equipments and supplies anre mostly Chinese.
引用 "元朝不能算数，他们是蒙古入侵者。”
元朝怎么不算？虽然皇帝不是中国人，但他手下的将军，部队，货币，攻城武器，装备和补给都是中国的。
09-12-2005 11:08 PM #41 muyang523
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Posts 82 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
I liked the Yuan dynasty at one point they had the largest empire of all
time. I think Qing was strong in the beginning , but they got weaker and
weaker. This is the same with all the dynastys.
我喜欢元朝就是因为它一直是最大的帝国。我想清朝刚开始时是强大的，但之后越来越弱。这也是所有王朝都共通的一点。
09-12-2005 11:12 PM #42 FriedRiceNSpice
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Posts 1,444 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
Originally Posted by muyang523
I liked the Yuan dynasty at one point they had the largest empire of all
time. I think Qing was strong in the beginning , but they got weaker and
weaker. This is the same with all the dynastys.
It won't be the case for the People's Republic of China!
引用 “ 我喜欢元朝就是因为它一直是最大的帝国。我想清朝刚开始时是强大的，但之后越来越弱。这也是所有王朝都共通的一点。”
中华人民共和国将打破这一宿命！
09-13-2005 08:42 AM #43 Obcession
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Posts 395 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
Every great nation/empire/dynasty has its rise, maturity, and fall. The main
reason many dynasties fell previously in China was because of corruption.
The emperor wanted everything to himself and built big projects using slave
labourers. Or the emperor's subordinates were very corrupted and started
taxing the people like crazy. This resulted in many peasant uprisings which
overthrew the old government and installed a new one that thinks for the
people. But over time this government will become corrupt as well and
history repeats itself. That's why the CCP either needs to crack down on
corruption more, or have multi party elections.
每个伟大的民族，帝国，王朝都盈虚有数。中国历来王朝衰败的主要原因都是因为腐败。帝王想拥有一切，大兴土木，征伕徭役。或者底下官员堕落腐化，刮民若狂。这就导致了农民起义，推翻旧政府，建立新的为人民着想的政权。但随着时间的流逝新政府也将再度变得腐败，历史就这样重复。同样，如果再让中国的腐败加剧，中共也要倒台，或者改制成多党派选举。
01-02-2006 10:31 PM #44 patriot
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Join Date Jan 2006
Posts 85 I voted for the Warring State because there's a lot of famous
battles involved. I don't think the voting instruction is quite clear
whether it's asking for the best/famous military time or a good army
I was wondering why the Han dynasty wasn't involve in this poll. I would
definitely vote for it if it's there.
Last edited by Gollevainen; 01-03-2006 at 04:23 AM. Reason: No douple
postring, expecially no oneliners!!!
我投了战国时代，因为那时有很多著名的战役。我对投票标准不太明白，到底是选出最辉煌最有名的军事时期还是最强大的军队？
如果可以选汉朝的话我一定选汉朝。
08-15-2006 02:02 AM #45 Tassadar
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Posts 12 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
Originally Posted by J T Z
With all due respect, I beg to differ. In terms of military power, there is
only one time in Han(under Han Wu Di) that china is strong. Also, the
military organization in Han is obsolete and ineffective. On the paper it
works fine: with every peasant in china as a soldier, china will have
millions. However, as Qian Mu(钱穆）and many other historians pointed
out: that everyone is a solider effectively equates none is a soldier. The
poor training, poor equipment and poor morale is inevitable given the
organization method of military of Han.
请允许我提出异议。就军事能力来说，汉朝只有一小段时期（汉武帝时期）是强大的。而且汉朝的军事体系非常落后低效。只是在纸面上写得好看，譬如每个农民都可作为军人，这样一来就能有数百万军队。其实就像钱穆等历史学家指出的:每个人都是军人实际上等于没有真正的军人。低劣的训练，低劣的装备，低劣的士气，对汉朝的军事体系来说就是不可避免的。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.com 翻译：trytrytry
On the other hand, Tang has a different approach. By organizing militaries
as self-supplied production units(府兵制), the training and the equipement of
military improved with no burden on goverment. Although the organizaiton
method rotten and deterorated latter on due to human failures, the first
half of Tang(初唐-盛唐) was arguably the strongest period of chinese military.
另一方面，唐朝走的是不同的道路。半自给的军垦式军事体系。训练和装备都不会加重政府负担。可惜这套体系后来因为人性弱点变质了。唐朝的前半段绝对是中国军事最强的时期。
As a chinese myself, I do admire the conquer of Han and other dynasties.
However, a more clear look at the history reveals that Tang is the zenith of
Chinese civilization for almost all aspects with no exception of military.
作为一个中国人，我很欣赏汉朝的征服者和其他帝王。但是纵览历史的轮轴，唐朝在各个方面都应该是中华文明的顶峰。
+ Reply to Thread Page 3 of 14 First 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 13 ... Last Jump to
08-15-2006 04:21 AM #46 mindreader
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Posts 52 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
Originally Posted by FriedRiceNSpice
I do not understand why anyone voted for Tang. The Tang did little to expand
China's borders. Furthermore, the Tang didn't vastly improve China's wealth
or improve China intellectually or scientifically. The Song which followed
the Tang was a much stronger dynasty, and did much to defeat barbarian
tribes and expand Chinese territory before being overwhelmed by the Turks
themselves.
I am sure you are joking. Too see how far the Tang Dynasty expanded, look up
the Battle of Talas. The Song Dynasty can't hold the Li family's collective
jockstraps. And no, the Tang armies were far from weak. Just ask the
Japanese for the "lessons" they learnt.
引用 “ 我不懂怎么有那么多人选唐朝。唐朝几乎没有扩张中国的版图。而且唐朝也没有大量扩充中国的财富，提升中国的科技水平。唐之后的宋朝就强大多了，打败了那些野蛮人部落并扩展了疆界。直到被那些突厥人碾压。”
你开玩笑。看看唐朝的疆界吧，再查查塔拉斯之战。宋朝的败家子们把从李家继承的衣钵败到只剩裤衩。唐朝的军队跟“弱”这个字相差了十万八千里，你去问问那些日本人就知道我们当初是怎么给他们上课的。
Then there are other people saying that "power projection" through the Ming
fleets is a sign of the greatest dynasty. That is also a ridiculous
qualifier. When comparing history, one needs to look at things relative to
other powers of the time. It is asinine to say the Ming Dynasty could
conquor the world where the Qin couldn't. Put simply, there is a 1600 year
technology gap. If one day people in giant space ships are fighting on Mars,
is the Ming Dynasty less impressive then?
另外还有人说通过舰队的兵力投送是明朝夺冠的理由。简直荒谬，跟历史上其他的朝代比较起来，说什么明朝能够征服秦朝征服不了的世界各国，所以明朝比秦朝强？想想吧，他们之间可是隔了条1600年的鸿沟啊。难道说如果有一天人类能够在巨大的宇宙飞船里打火星大战，那时我们也可以把明朝贬得不值一提吗？
Also, I can't believe how anybody in their right mind could vote the Qing
Dynasty as the best, especially to do so based simply on looking at maps.
There is a reason the Qing Dynasty is considered in China, almost without
question, as the worst dynasty ever.
而且我也不明白那些选清朝的人脑子里是怎么想的，眼睛就只会盯着地图。清朝当然算是中国王朝，中国最差的王朝。
Huang Taji was OK. Kangxi was great. It was all downhill from there. If not
for the so called Ten Great Campaigns, Qianlong would be looked upon as a
moron (as he should be).
皇太极还不错。康熙很优秀。但从此之后清朝完全是下坡路。如果不是所谓的“十全武功”，乾隆也不过是个低能儿。
For those that says corruption got especially bad during Cixi, they've
obviously never heard of He Shen, who's wealth is mentioned as a percentage
of the world's total wealth. When he was finally forced to suicide and his
property seized, his wealth exceeded 10 to 15 years worth of the Qing
Dynasty's total income. And he is just the tip of the iceberg. If we are to
include other corrupt officials, well...
至于那几位说慈禧非常腐败的，显然他们还不知道和珅。他的财富一度占到了当时世界总财富的百分之一。但他最后被赐死，财产充公时的总额相当于清政府10到15年的财政收入。而他只不过是庞大的腐败官僚群体中的冰山一角。。。
But by far the greatest setback they did to China was technologically. By
the way, yes they did abandon firearms. As I've said in another thread, if
not for Kangxi's obsession with cannons, the Opium War would have been even
uglier than it was.
但他们在中国造成的最大倒退是科技方面的，他们确实放弃了火器。如果不是康熙曾迷恋大炮，鸦片战争会打得更难看。
01-12-2007 07:14 PM #47 Edinburgher
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Posts 1 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
Originally Posted by Liberator
Remember. the Qing troops did not get enough food, therefore they are slow,
weak, fragile on the battlefield. Most of the money from the goverment had
been stolen by lots of bad goverment officials's pockets.
Actually, i hate Qing, cos the rulers and kings of Qing are originally from
other countries,(close to Russia and North China). they are very cruel
*******, they ruined the China and dragged China into darkness, before Qing,
China's military are advanced, technical, economic and agriculcure are
ranged top 3 in the world, during Qing's ruling, China became very weak...
the most shame for Qing;s rulers are they forced Chinese to change their
hair style and cloth style. so Chinese in Qing 's dressing are ugly...
Last edited by sumdud; 01-12-2007 at 07:53 PM.
引用 “记住。清军甚至没有足够军粮。所以他们在战场上如此缓慢，无力，脆弱。大量军费被政府官员贪污了。”
老实说，我恨清朝。因为统治者来自外国。他们异常凶残。他们坏我河山。清之前，中国的军事一直在进步，科技，经济和农业都名列世界前三。而在清的统治下，中国日益孱弱。。。而清带来的最大耻辱是，他们强迫中国人改装蓄辫，在清朝时的中国人形象竟是如此丑陋。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.com 翻译：trytrytry
01-12-2007 07:58 PM #48 sumdud
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Join Date Aug 2005
Location SF
Posts 1,836 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
First, welcome to The Forum.
I see that you are from Edinburgh. Go ahead and enjoy yourself in the Club
room.
首先，欢迎你来到俺们论坛。俺看到你来自爱丁堡。到俱乐部去轻松下吧。
But I hope you understand that this is a strict forum and we do not allow
bashing of any kind, including the Manchus. We do have Manchu members
onboard. It does not help either when the information is biased/connected
with only one kind.
俺希望你能明白这是个严肃的论坛，俺们不允许开涮任何人，包括满族。因为这也有满族会员。针对任何人群的偏见都是没有好处的。
I want Asia on my front porch and America as my backyard.
Disclaimer: By America, I meant the Continent. And yes, I know Asian homes
have neither a backyard nor a porch in the American sense.
Reply With Quote
01-12-2007 08:19 PM #49 kunmingren
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Join Date Aug 2006
Location Maryland
Posts 129 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
Originally Posted by Edinburgher
Actually, i hate Qing, cos the rulers and kings of Qing are originally from
other countries,(close to Russia and North China). they are very cruel
*******, they ruined the China and dragged China into darkness, before Qing,
China's military are advanced, technical, economic and agriculcure are
ranged top 3 in the world, during Qing's ruling, China became very weak...
the most shame for Qing;s rulers are they forced Chinese to change their
hair style and cloth style. so Chinese in Qing 's dressing are ugly...
i would completely disagree with your thinking, Qing werent any worse than
any other dynasty, they didn't 'ruin' china, its just that the rest of the
world caught up with China because there wasnt any inovation since Song
Dynasty ended. If anything, the Ming dynasty was the most abysmal ruling
family in Chinese history. Most notoriously decadent or sadistic or even
illiterate emperors are from that dynasty.
引用 “老实说，我恨清朝。因为统治者来自外国。他们异常凶残。他们坏我河山。清之前，中国的军事一直在进步，科技，经济和农业都名列世界前三。而在清的统治下，中国日益孱弱。。。而清带来的最大耻辱是，他们强迫中国人改装蓄辫，在清朝时的中国人形象竟是如此丑陋。”
我完全不同意你的看法。清朝并不比其他王朝坏，他们没有玩坏中国。只不过是被世界其他国家逐渐赶超了，因为中国自宋代结束就再没有革新了。明朝才是最恶劣的朝代，大部分颓废，暴虐甚至病态的皇帝都是明朝的。
01-16-2007 11:07 PM #50 Spike
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Posts 142 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
The Tang period was one of the most glorious in Chinese history; it was a
marvel of culture, diplomacy, and military conquest. The early Tang emperors
built strong relationships with certain nomadic tribes and cleverly
exploited divisions among their enemies from without. Using their
technological superiority, the Tang armies expanded into Vietnam, Manchuria,
and the TarimBasin up to the Pamirs and the TalasRiver (Remarkably Korea
stalemated the Tang but accepted tributary status). Culturally the Tang knew
no rivals, porcelain was perfected during the Tang, and printing was
invented. Some of the greatest poets in Chinese history were from the Tang,
ie. Du Fu and Li Bai. Chang'an boasted 2 million inhabitants from all over
the world: Arabs, Jews, Persians, Koreans, Japanese, etc. Korea, Japan, and
Vietnam were heavily influenced by Tang China and began to borrow heavily
from Chinese culture.
唐朝是中国历史上最辉煌的时期，包括文化的奇葩，外交和军事征服。唐朝前期的皇帝与一些游牧部落建立了稳固的关系，并聪明地分化了他的敌人。运用高超的科技，唐军纵深挺进到了越南，满洲里，塔里木盆地，帕米尔高原和塔拉斯河。（高丽人挡住了唐军但最终还是接受了朝贡体系）唐朝文化上无可匹敌。唐代的瓷器堪称完美，还发明了印刷术（雕版印刷--译者注）。中国古代一些最伟大的诗人来自唐朝，像杜甫和李白。长安城是世界之都，居民超过200万，其中有阿拉伯人，犹太人，波斯人，高丽人，日本人。深受唐文化影响并将之搬运借鉴的国家有朝鲜，日本，越南等等。
The Song Dynasty is often seen as 'weak' by Chinese because it fell to the
Mongols, resulting in the poorly run and discriminatory Yuan dynasty.
However, the Song managed to hold out for 40 years against the Mongols who
were aided by Chinese engineers and military technicians. In fact, Genghis
Khan first sent his Golden Horde west, overrunning all of Russia before they
turned back in Hungary with the Great Khan's death. Despite being the
closest in proximity to the Mongolian homelands the Song were probably one
of the more successful holdouts to Mongol dominance, not able to exploit bad
sea weather like the Japanese and Javanese, or extreme distances like the
Mamluks.
宋朝一般被中国人看作孱弱因为它被蒙古征服了，宋王室被元朝赶尽杀绝。尽管如此，它曾经抵挡了被中国工匠和军事科技滋养的蒙古人超过40年。实际上，成吉思汗曾派他的黄金家族往西占领了全部的俄罗斯，直到在匈牙利获知大可汗的死讯。如果不是毗邻蒙古本土，宋朝很可能抵挡住蒙古人的狂潮，可惜它不像日本有“神风",布尔吉的马穆鲁克有距离蒙古的超远路程。
01-27-2007 03:44 PM #51 Ryz05
Member
Join Date Jan 2007
Posts 385 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
I choose the PRC because of their destructive potential (they have nukes).
Also, China has never been so secure along its borders, as opposed to the
early days when there were threats from the North (Mongols and Huns).
Otherwise I would've chosen Qin because of the unification and the impact
the period had on military ideology.
我选择了中华人民共和国，因为他们的毁灭性的潜力。（他们有核弹）而且中国现在的国境线是最平静的，不像以前面临着来自北方的威胁（蒙古和匈奴）。要么我就选择秦，因为它对六国的统一，还有它当时的军事理念带来的冲击。
http://www.ltaaa.com/wtfy/2290.html
01-31-2007 07:54 PM #52 Kilo636
Banned Idiot
Join Date Nov 2005
Posts 125 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
Originally Posted by FriedRiceNSpice
The Yuan dynasty shouldn't count because they were Mongol invaders. The Qing
dynasty should count because the Manchus are considered Chinese. Also, the
Manchus were accepted by the Chinese as rulers while the Mongols were not.
That is why the Yuan fell after only 80 years.
So u are saying those mongols in Inner mongolia of China considered as
invader and foreigner? They are too the citizen of PRC. We shall consider
Yuan dynasty as an official dynasty of China.. Mongol too is still part of
the history of China.. Mongolia was even until Qing rule.
引用 “元朝不能算数，他们是蒙古入侵者。清朝不一样，因为满族已经被认为是中国人了。也正因此满族统治者得到了中国人的承认，不像蒙古人。这也是为什么元朝在80年后就分崩离析。”
你难道是说，现在内蒙的蒙古人在中国被看做是外国人和入侵者吗？他们一样是中华人民共和国的公民。我们应该把元看做是中国的历史。。。蒙古也是中国历史的一部分。。。蒙古国曾经被清朝统治。
Yuan by my point is the most powerful and devastating army force at that
time. Conquer the most vast amount of land.
元朝在我看来有着最强的军事力量，征服了地球上大部分土地。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.com 翻译：trytrytry
01-31-2007 08:39 PM #53 kunmingren
Member
Join Date Aug 2006
Location Maryland
Posts 129 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
Originally Posted by Kilo636
I dont agree with Yuan dynasty being Chinese, i mean they only established
for barely 80 years, and they were never party of Chinese culture. Right now
in China, they are included as Chinese, this is done for political reason of
trying to dissuade sepretism (though, i dont think there are very much
sepretism talk in Mongolia).
我不认为元朝是中国的朝代。因为他们仅存在了80多年，他们从来没纳入到中华文化体系中。现在他们在中国被当成是中国人是因为政治因素，防止分裂行径。（不过我猜还是有很多分裂分子整天怀念着大蒙古帝国)
if we follow your logic, Korea was also ruled by Kublai, doesnt that say the
most power period of Korean history was during the Mongol Rule? And this can
be said about Russia, Iran, and Vietnam.
如果按照你的逻辑，那么朝鲜半岛也曾被忽必烈统治，那么是不是可以说，他们国家最辉煌的时期就是在蒙古人统治下占据了大半个东亚？而且俄国，伊朗，越南也能这么说。
02-01-2007 01:10 AM #54 crobato
Super Moderator
Join Date Nov 2005
Posts 4,878 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
For me I like the Ming because of the costumes, armor, and their ingenious
use of gunpowder. They managed to beat the Mongols in their own game---beat
cavalry with gunpowder-- and destroyed them in their homeland. And they
certainly meant business, with 3400 cannons just along the Great Wall.
我喜欢明朝，因为他们的服装，铠甲和对火药的高超运用。他们在战场上玩射击游戏--用火器攻击蒙古骑兵。并在他们老家摧毁了蒙古人。显然他们对火器的态度是认真的，有3400门火炮部署在长城上。
I also like the Three Kingdoms period, partly because of the literature,
myth, heroes, characters, legends, and of course, the video games behind it.
But this is probably the golden age of Chinese cavalry. Mass production of
the stirrup shortly began before the fall of the Han, conveniently in time
to be used in the ThreeKingdom wars. Heavy cavalry would be developed, and
they would last until the Tang, whose Turkish/Middle Eastern influences
reverted cavalry back to being light.
我也很喜欢三国时期。某种程度上是因为由此而来的文学作品，神话传奇，英雄人物。哦，当然还有哪些电子游戏。大概这是中国骑兵的黄金时代了吧。其实汉朝灭亡之前马镫已经大量生产了，自然在三国时代得到运用。重骑兵应该已经发展出来了，一直持续到唐朝。直到受突厥人和中东的影响，骑兵又重新变为轻骑。
02-24-2007 10:45 PM #55 han jade sword
New Member
Join Date Feb 2007
Posts 3 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
Originally Posted by rommel
well, I choose Qin because of the Reunification, and I found this admirable
that the Qin beat every country one after each other
you don not know china. qing dynastry is not chinese history.qing is built
by tungus.tungus is not chinese native nations.our china have many nations
.but mongolia nation or manchu nation are not chinese native nations.so it
is nonsensical to take about qing dynastry.our china is broken up inqing
dynastory.that history is very grieved.if you want to know .you can read a
great book<south ming history>《南明史》。
引用 “那么我选秦国，因为它统一了中国。秦吞二周而亡诸侯真是好精彩。”
乃真是不懂中国历史。清朝不是中国人的王朝。清是从通古斯发源的，不是中国本土民族。偶们中国有许多民族。但蒙古族和满族不是本土民族。所以清朝是不算的。偶们中国在清朝变坏了，真是一段伤心的历史。如果你想知道更多，看看这本书《南明史》。
***MOD EDIT: no advertizement of other forums, exscpesially not ones with
controversial material*********
Last edited by Gollevainen; 02-26-2007 at 07:32 AM.
以下是网址。
02-25-2007 06:34 PM #56 kunmingren
Member
Join Date Aug 2006
Location Maryland
Posts 129 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
Originally Posted by han jade sword
rommel said qin, not qing. Qin was between 221 and 206 BC, its 1800 years
before the qing dynasty which you dont think are chinese.
回楼上。隆美尔说的是秦，不是清。秦朝是在公元前221至206年，比你认为不是中国王朝的清朝早了1800多年。
and about the hanminzu.com, i paid a visit to the site, some of its content
is border line racist. such as a post about the inminent danger of minority
taking power from han people and some how persecute the han.
至于你给的那个网站hanminzu.com，我发现里面的内容近乎种族主义。都是说少数民族的威胁和对汉族的一些迫害。
02-28-2007 06:20 AM #57 A Pirate
New Member
Join Date Feb 2007
Location SuZhou.China
Posts 5 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
BTW,Where's Han Dyansty?
汉朝没得选？
02-28-2007 06:43 AM #58 goldenpanda
Banned Idiot
Join Date Feb 2007
Posts 183 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
Originally Posted by Liberator
If the STUPID QIng emperor at late Qing cared about the country, then China
would be as strong as the Europeans...
The Qing emperors in late Qing did nothing but eat, laugh, play.
Man when will Chinese advance from naive view of our own history? We just
blame everything on bad people. Does that solve any problems? All the bad
people came from our population. Are we going to keep producing bad people
then blame them forever?
引用 " 如果愚蠢的清朝皇帝在乎这个国家，那中国能变得像欧洲一样强大。。。晚清的皇帝除了吃，笑，玩，什么也没做过。”
唉，中国人什么时候才能摆脱这样幼稚的历史观念。我们只是责怪他人这样那样不好，能解决任何问题吗？这些坏人还不都是从我们之间走出来的？难道我还要继续让这样的人出现并永远责怪他们吗？
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.com 翻译：trytrytry
It's not just this or that emperor. Chinese military thinking stopped
evolving at "let's unify the country keep everyone from revolts". We didn't
have a systematic way to describe knowledge and then to accumulate progress.
It was mentioned Qing forts were not designed to maximize fields of fire.
Did we have even *the concept* so we could *think* about maximizing it? All
the centuries of intellectual work, what have they given us, besides nice
poems about wine and women? Chinese talk about the need to learn science,
but I wonder if we really know what is science.
这不只是皇帝什么的错。中国的军事思想就停留在"防民造反"上，没有对技术知识的系统整理和积累。明朝的要塞就没有考虑增加火力输出面。我们有过这样的概念吗？几千年来智力层面的成果，除了诗歌美酒女人还有什么？中国人总是说要致力于科学发展，但我怀疑没有人真正知道什么是科学。
When will Chinese value the need to see the world, then *try to describe
it*?
中国人什么时候才真正放眼世界？
***
艹
yeah, I was actually going to vote for Han. Besides inventing the imperial
system, the Han were the last time that Chinese could mobilize just about
every man in the country on a foreign campaign.
Last edited by goldenpanda; 02-28-2007 at 06:51 AM.
我真是想投汉朝一票。除了创建了举国体制，汉朝是最后一次中国能全民团结一致对外。
02-28-2007 07:20 AM #59 goldenpanda
Banned Idiot
Join Date Feb 2007
Posts 183 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
Originally Posted by FriedRiceNSpice
In my opinion, it was the Ming. Why? Because only during the Ming dynasty
did China have to capabilities to project power across the world.
Ming navy...hugely overrated. They didn't have reliable navigation. Didn't
have a colonial mentality. Just went around parading to natives. Did not
even survive as an institution within the Ming military system.
引用 "因为只有在明朝，中国有能力向全世界投送武力”
明朝海军。。。被严重高估了。他们的航行是很冒险的，也没有殖民意愿。只是一场给土著看的行游表演。甚至不包括在明朝军事的建制中。
Go with the Han, who created an imperial system never seen in the world,
which lasted two thousands years.
至于汉朝，它所创建的举国体制是近两千年来世界上绝无仅有的。
02-28-2007 05:01 PM #60 zachjeli
Banned Idiot
Join Date Feb 2007
Posts 25 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
Originally Posted by goldenpanda
Ming navy...hugely overrated. They didn't have reliable navigation. Didn't
have a colonial mentality. Just went around parading to natives. Did not
even survive as an institution within the Ming military system.
Go with the Han, who created an imperial system never seen in the world,
which lasted two thousands years.
how come it is not the PRC, since they are going to be a superpower.
引用 “至于汉朝，它所创建的举国体制是近两千年来世界上绝无仅有的。”
怎么不看看中华人民共和国？他们就要成为一个超级大国了。
Banned Idiot
Join Date Nov 2005
Posts 125 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
Originally Posted by FriedRiceNSpice
The Yuan dynasty shouldn't count because they were Mongol invaders. The Qing
dynasty should count because the Manchus are considered Chinese. Also, the
Manchus were accepted by the Chinese as rulers while the Mongols were not.
That is why the Yuan fell after only 80 years.
So u are saying those mongols in Inner mongolia of China considered as
invader and foreigner? They are too the citizen of PRC. We shall consider
Yuan dynasty as an official dynasty of China.. Mongol too is still part of
the history of China.. Mongolia was even until Qing rule.
引用 “元朝不能算数，他们是蒙古入侵者。清朝不一样，因为满族已经被认为是中国人了。也正因此满族统治者得到了中国人的承认，不像蒙古人。这也是为什么元朝在80年后就分崩离析。”
你难道是说，现在内蒙的蒙古人在中国被看做是外国人和入侵者吗？他们一样是中华人民共和国的公民。我们应该把元看做是中国的历史。。。蒙古也是中国历史的一部分。。。蒙古国曾经被清朝统治。
Yuan by my point is the most powerful and devastating army force at that
time. Conquer the most vast amount of land.
元朝在我看来有着最强的军事力量，征服了地球上大部分土地。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.com 翻译：trytrytry
01-31-2007 08:39 PM #53 kunmingren
Member
Join Date Aug 2006
Location Maryland
Posts 129 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
Originally Posted by Kilo636
I dont agree with Yuan dynasty being Chinese, i mean they only established
for barely 80 years, and they were never party of Chinese culture. Right now
in China, they are included as Chinese, this is done for political reason of
trying to dissuade sepretism (though, i dont think there are very much
sepretism talk in Mongolia).
我不认为元朝是中国的朝代。因为他们仅存在了80多年，他们从来没纳入到中华文化体系中。现在他们在中国被当成是中国人是因为政治因素，防止分裂行径。（不过我猜还是有很多分裂分子整天怀念着大蒙古帝国)
if we follow your logic, Korea was also ruled by Kublai, doesnt that say the
most power period of Korean history was during the Mongol Rule? And this can
be said about Russia, Iran, and Vietnam.
如果按照你的逻辑，那么朝鲜半岛也曾被忽必烈统治，那么是不是可以说，他们国家最辉煌的时期就是在蒙古人统治下占据了大半个东亚？而且俄国，伊朗，越南也能这么说。
02-01-2007 01:10 AM #54 crobato
Super Moderator
Join Date Nov 2005
Posts 4,878 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
For me I like the Ming because of the costumes, armor, and their ingenious
use of gunpowder. They managed to beat the Mongols in their own game---beat
cavalry with gunpowder-- and destroyed them in their homeland. And they
certainly meant business, with 3400 cannons just along the Great Wall.
我喜欢明朝，因为他们的服装，铠甲和对火药的高超运用。他们在战场上玩射击游戏--用火器攻击蒙古骑兵。并在他们老家摧毁了蒙古人。显然他们对火器的态度是认真的，有3400门火炮部署在长城上。
I also like the Three Kingdoms period, partly because of the literature,
myth, heroes, characters, legends, and of course, the video games behind it.
But this is probably the golden age of Chinese cavalry. Mass production of
the stirrup shortly began before the fall of the Han, conveniently in time
to be used in the ThreeKingdom wars. Heavy cavalry would be developed, and
they would last until the Tang, whose Turkish/Middle Eastern influences
reverted cavalry back to being light.
我也很喜欢三国时期。某种程度上是因为由此而来的文学作品，神话传奇，英雄人物。哦，当然还有哪些电子游戏。大概这是中国骑兵的黄金时代了吧。其实汉朝灭亡之前马镫已经大量生产了，自然在三国时代得到运用。重骑兵应该已经发展出来了，一直持续到唐朝。直到受突厥人和中东的影响，骑兵又重新变为轻骑。
02-24-2007 10:45 PM #55 han jade sword
New Member
Join Date Feb 2007
Posts 3 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
Originally Posted by rommel
well, I choose Qin because of the Reunification, and I found this admirable
that the Qin beat every country one after each other
you don not know china. qing dynastry is not chinese history.qing is built
by tungus.tungus is not chinese native nations.our china have many nations
.but mongolia nation or manchu nation are not chinese native nations.so it
is nonsensical to take about qing dynastry.our china is broken up inqing
dynastory.that history is very grieved.if you want to know .you can read a
great book<south ming history>《南明史》。
引用 “那么我选秦国，因为它统一了中国。秦吞二周而亡诸侯真是好精彩。”
乃真是不懂中国历史。清朝不是中国人的王朝。清是从通古斯发源的，不是中国本土民族。偶们中国有许多民族。但蒙古族和满族不是本土民族。所以清朝是不算的。偶们中国在清朝变坏了，真是一段伤心的历史。如果你想知道更多，看看这本书《南明史》。
***MOD EDIT: no advertizement of other forums, exscpesially not ones with
controversial material*********
Last edited by Gollevainen; 02-26-2007 at 07:32 AM.
以下是网址。
02-25-2007 06:34 PM #56 kunmingren
Member
Join Date Aug 2006
Location Maryland
Posts 129 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
Originally Posted by han jade sword
rommel said qin, not qing. Qin was between 221 and 206 BC, its 1800 years
before the qing dynasty which you dont think are chinese.
回楼上。隆美尔说的是秦，不是清。秦朝是在公元前221至206年，比你认为不是中国王朝的清朝早了1800多年。
and about the hanminzu.com, i paid a visit to the site, some of its content
is border line racist. such as a post about the inminent danger of minority
taking power from han people and some how persecute the han.
至于你给的那个网站hanminzu.com，我发现里面的内容近乎种族主义。都是说少数民族的威胁和对汉族的一些迫害。
02-28-2007 06:20 AM #57 A Pirate
New Member
Join Date Feb 2007
Location SuZhou.China
Posts 5 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
BTW,Where's Han Dyansty?
汉朝没得选？
02-28-2007 06:43 AM #58 goldenpanda
Banned Idiot
Join Date Feb 2007
Posts 183 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
Originally Posted by Liberator
If the STUPID QIng emperor at late Qing cared about the country, then China
would be as strong as the Europeans...
The Qing emperors in late Qing did nothing but eat, laugh, play.
Man when will Chinese advance from naive view of our own history? We just
blame everything on bad people. Does that solve any problems? All the bad
people came from our population. Are we going to keep producing bad people
then blame them forever?
引用 " 如果愚蠢的清朝皇帝在乎这个国家，那中国能变得像欧洲一样强大。。。晚清的皇帝除了吃，笑，玩，什么也没做过。”
唉，中国人什么时候才能摆脱这样幼稚的历史观念。我们只是责怪他人这样那样不好，能解决任何问题吗？这些坏人还不都是从我们之间走出来的？难道我还要继续让这样的人出现并永远责怪他们吗？
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.com 翻译：trytrytry
It's not just this or that emperor. Chinese military thinking stopped
evolving at "let's unify the country keep everyone from revolts". We didn't
have a systematic way to describe knowledge and then to accumulate progress.
It was mentioned Qing forts were not designed to maximize fields of fire.
Did we have even *the concept* so we could *think* about maximizing it? All
the centuries of intellectual work, what have they given us, besides nice
poems about wine and women? Chinese talk about the need to learn science,
but I wonder if we really know what is science.
这不只是皇帝什么的错。中国的军事思想就停留在"防民造反"上，没有对技术知识的系统整理和积累。明朝的要塞就没有考虑增加火力输出面。我们有过这样的概念吗？几千年来智力层面的成果，除了诗歌美酒女人还有什么？中国人总是说要致力于科学发展，但我怀疑没有人真正知道什么是科学。
When will Chinese value the need to see the world, then *try to describe
it*?
中国人什么时候才真正放眼世界？
***
艹
yeah, I was actually going to vote for Han. Besides inventing the imperial
system, the Han were the last time that Chinese could mobilize just about
every man in the country on a foreign campaign.
Last edited by goldenpanda; 02-28-2007 at 06:51 AM.
我真是想投汉朝一票。除了创建了举国体制，汉朝是最后一次中国能全民团结一致对外。
02-28-2007 07:20 AM #59 goldenpanda
Banned Idiot
Join Date Feb 2007
Posts 183 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
Originally Posted by FriedRiceNSpice
In my opinion, it was the Ming. Why? Because only during the Ming dynasty
did China have to capabilities to project power across the world.
Ming navy...hugely overrated. They didn't have reliable navigation. Didn't
have a colonial mentality. Just went around parading to natives. Did not
even survive as an institution within the Ming military system.
引用 "因为只有在明朝，中国有能力向全世界投送武力”
明朝海军。。。被严重高估了。他们的航行是很冒险的，也没有殖民意愿。只是一场给土著看的行游表演。甚至不包括在明朝军事的建制中。
Go with the Han, who created an imperial system never seen in the world,
which lasted two thousands years.
至于汉朝，它所创建的举国体制是近两千年来世界上绝无仅有的。
02-28-2007 05:01 PM #60 zachjeli
Banned Idiot
Join Date Feb 2007
Posts 25 Re: Chinas best dynastic military?
Originally Posted by goldenpanda
Ming navy...hugely overrated. They didn't have reliable navigation. Didn't
have a colonial mentality. Just went around parading to natives. Did not
even survive as an institution within the Ming military system.
Go with the Han, who created an imperial system never seen in the world,
which lasted two thousands years.
how come it is not the PRC, since they are going to be a superpower.
引用 “至于汉朝，它所创建的举国体制是近两千年来世界上绝无仅有的。”
怎么不看看中华人民共和国？他们就要成为一个超级大国了。
唐代的陌刀阵被无视了。。。
高宗号称中国版图最大的时代被无视了。
玄宗时代还在和黑衣大食争雄。
要不是武后为了政权杀了一干大将以及李家子孙。
安西都护。。
那叫一个夸张
高宗号称中国版图最大的时代被无视了。
玄宗时代还在和黑衣大食争雄。
要不是武后为了政权杀了一干大将以及李家子孙。
安西都护。。
那叫一个夸张
可怜葬送在武周手中的安西。
从那以后再也没被中央控制过了。
恒罗斯之战后更不用说。
送给了大食人
从那以后再也没被中央控制过了。
恒罗斯之战后更不用说。
送给了大食人
汉 汉 大汉阿
其实不用争了。 中国军事一如既往的一个鸟样
这不是科技 经济决定的
是文化
被曲解利用的儒家文化
被文人骚客曲解利用的文化
中国文人做梦都在逛窑子
俄国文人做梦都在战斗
中国人不需要军队
因为他们的敌人是他们自己
论坛里有个假设中国和美国接壤的帖子
看了这个帖子再回去看那个帖子的回复
你会发现
外国人更了解中国
因为他们看穿了中国人
这不是科技 经济决定的
是文化
被曲解利用的儒家文化
被文人骚客曲解利用的文化
中国文人做梦都在逛窑子
俄国文人做梦都在战斗
中国人不需要军队
因为他们的敌人是他们自己
论坛里有个假设中国和美国接壤的帖子
看了这个帖子再回去看那个帖子的回复
你会发现
外国人更了解中国
因为他们看穿了中国人
中华人民共和国？他们就要成为一个超级大国了
元朝不解释，对欧洲人战绩最好，远胜明清
看看评论真欢乐
奇怪的是，讨论中国史军事怎么还是鸟语？？？
南宋最强
andyfan1030 发表于 2011-7-3 23:57 
其实不用争了。 中国军事一如既往的一个鸟样
这不是科技 经济决定的
“大江东去，浪淘尽，千古风流人物”，有个“浪”，有个“风流”，嗯，阁下去逛吧
其实不用争了。 中国军事一如既往的一个鸟样
这不是科技 经济决定的
中国文人做梦都在逛窑子
“大江东去，浪淘尽，千古风流人物”，有个“浪”，有个“风流”，嗯，阁下去逛吧
andyfan1030 发表于 2011-7-3 23:57
其实不用争了。 中国军事一如既往的一个鸟样
这不是科技 经济决定的
原来俄国文人不逛窑子，逛您嘛？
其实不用争了。 中国军事一如既往的一个鸟样
这不是科技 经济决定的
原来俄国文人不逛窑子，逛您嘛？
某些回帖给大家带来了欢乐！！
一群中国人用英语讨论么
，不过发现里面有才的还是挺多的，就是观点不同，元的问题我比较赞同，把它算在历史里更多的是政治作用
，不过发现里面有才的还是挺多的，就是观点不同，元的问题我比较赞同，把它算在历史里更多的是政治作用sion10 发表于 2011-7-4 00:00
元朝不解释，对欧洲人战绩最好，远胜明清
元朝不能算中国，清也一样。最能打的还是明朝，好像就没消停过，最后内忧加外患才消停了
元朝不解释，对欧洲人战绩最好，远胜明清
元朝不能算中国，清也一样。最能打的还是明朝，好像就没消停过，最后内忧加外患才消停了
notbigsr 发表于 2011-7-4 02:58
一群中国人用英语讨论么，不过发现里面有才的还是挺多的，就是观点不同，元的问题我比较赞同 ...
是国外论坛在讨论，龙腾网翻译的
一群中国人用英语讨论么，不过发现里面有才的还是挺多的，就是观点不同，元的问题我比较赞同 ...
是国外论坛在讨论，龙腾网翻译的
肾虚道长 发表于 2011-7-4 03:03
是国外论坛在讨论，龙腾网翻译的
不过我看里面很多人都自称是中国人
是国外论坛在讨论，龙腾网翻译的
不过我看里面很多人都自称是中国人
notbigsr 发表于 2011-7-4 03:09
不过我看里面很多人都自称是中国人
那个帖子有几个留学生
不过我看里面很多人都自称是中国人
那个帖子有几个留学生
其实是汉朝，因为相对于世界上其他任何国家都有制度上的代差…汉是封建制度，而其他帝国（其中包括罗马帝国）都是奴隶制度…
malick 发表于 2011-7-4 03:02
元朝不能算中国，清也一样。最能打的还是明朝，好像就没消停过，最后内忧加外患才消停了
那秦和唐都不能算，明朝也疑似有棒子血统
明军战斗力么，初期被蒙古人抓了皇帝围了京城，后期被农民军虐，号称精锐的郑成功两万人打荷兰一千人，一年才打完而且死伤无数
malick 发表于 2011-7-4 03:02
元朝不能算中国，清也一样。最能打的还是明朝，好像就没消停过，最后内忧加外患才消停了
那秦和唐都不能算，明朝也疑似有棒子血统
明军战斗力么，初期被蒙古人抓了皇帝围了京城，后期被农民军虐，号称精锐的郑成功两万人打荷兰一千人，一年才打完而且死伤无数
uritestliaobo 发表于 2011-7-4 01:20
“大江东去，浪淘尽，千古风流人物”，有个“浪”，有个“风流”，嗯，阁下去逛吧
咬文嚼字有意思吗
回避现实有意思吗
天天骗自己世界无敌有意思吗
被人家蒙古灭了还硬说5000年华夏文明源远流长
都灭了族了还好意吹啊。 全民沦为奴隶也要写小说写诗歌
“大江东去，浪淘尽，千古风流人物”，有个“浪”，有个“风流”，嗯，阁下去逛吧
咬文嚼字有意思吗
回避现实有意思吗
天天骗自己世界无敌有意思吗
被人家蒙古灭了还硬说5000年华夏文明源远流长
都灭了族了还好意吹啊。 全民沦为奴隶也要写小说写诗歌
andyfan1030 发表于 2011-7-4 04:31
咬文嚼字有意思吗
回避现实有意思吗
原来现在我们都不是中华民族....
咬文嚼字有意思吗
回避现实有意思吗
原来现在我们都不是中华民族....
蒋家王朝...............................理由去问果粉Aries852397020 发表于 2011-7-4 06:22
原来现在我们都不是中华民族....
中华民族 和华夏文明是有区别的
原来现在我们都不是中华民族....
中华民族 和华夏文明是有区别的
andyfan1030 发表于 2011-7-3 23:57
其实不用争了。 中国军事一如既往的一个鸟样
这不是科技 经济决定的
中国整体素质。就是你被拉下来了。真的。你影像力真大。
其实不用争了。 中国军事一如既往的一个鸟样
这不是科技 经济决定的
中国整体素质。就是你被拉下来了。真的。你影像力真大。
andyfan1030 发表于 2011-7-4 07:54
中华民族 和华夏文明是有区别的
解释下什么区别。！
中华民族 和华夏文明是有区别的
解释下什么区别。！
sdsshubiao 发表于 2011-7-4 06:41
蒋家王朝...............................理由去问果粉
蒋家王朝能跟现在的中国比？你脑被门夹了？
蒋家王朝...............................理由去问果粉
蒋家王朝能跟现在的中国比？你脑被门夹了？
andyfan1030 发表于 2011-7-4 04:31
咬文嚼字有意思吗
回避现实有意思吗
我杂觉得你这么没文化呢。这些都是从某某论坛弄过来的
？
咬文嚼字有意思吗
回避现实有意思吗
我杂觉得你这么没文化呢。这些都是从某某论坛弄过来的
？
malick 发表于 2011-7-4 03:02
元朝不能算中国，清也一样。最能打的还是明朝，好像就没消停过，最后内忧加外患才消停了
脑门被夹了就去医院。难道要再夹一次？
元朝不能算中国，清也一样。最能打的还是明朝，好像就没消停过，最后内忧加外患才消停了
脑门被夹了就去医院。难道要再夹一次？
liliwcwcwc 发表于 2011-7-3 23:41
唐代的陌刀阵被无视了。。。
高宗号称中国版图最大的时代被无视了。
玄宗时代还在和黑衣大食争雄。
感觉你是从哪个年代来的？不然你咋这么有话说呢？
唐代的陌刀阵被无视了。。。
高宗号称中国版图最大的时代被无视了。
玄宗时代还在和黑衣大食争雄。
感觉你是从哪个年代来的？不然你咋这么有话说呢？
adisen1199 发表于 2011-7-4 08:06
我杂觉得你这么没文化呢。这些都是从某某论坛弄过来的
？
关于区别请自行百度
呵呵 别和棒子学好吧 认清历史才能进步
我杂觉得你这么没文化呢。这些都是从某某论坛弄过来的
？
关于区别请自行百度
呵呵 别和棒子学好吧 认清历史才能进步
adisen1199 发表于 2011-7-4 08:08
脑门被夹了就去医院。难道要再夹一次？
请不要人身攻击好吗
脑门被夹了就去医院。难道要再夹一次？
请不要人身攻击好吗
andyfan1030 发表于 2011-7-4 04:31
咬文嚼字有意思吗
回避现实有意思吗
照你这么说全世界各个民族都早就被灭了一遍了，现在剩下的人是什么呢，都是奴隶的后代？
咬文嚼字有意思吗
回避现实有意思吗
照你这么说全世界各个民族都早就被灭了一遍了，现在剩下的人是什么呢，都是奴隶的后代？
流浪猫kzl 发表于 2011-7-4 08:12
照你这么说全世界各个民族都早就被灭了一遍了，现在剩下的人是什么呢，都是奴隶的后代？
文明和民族是有区别的
照你这么说全世界各个民族都早就被灭了一遍了，现在剩下的人是什么呢，都是奴隶的后代？
文明和民族是有区别的
andyfan1030 发表于 2011-7-4 08:16
文明和民族是有区别的
是吗·那何以见得中国被灭后 文明就断层了呢
文明和民族是有区别的
是吗·那何以见得中国被灭后 文明就断层了呢
流浪猫kzl 发表于 2011-7-4 08:18
是吗·那何以见得中国被灭后 文明就断层了呢
商女不知亡国恨，犹抱琵琶半遮面
是吗·那何以见得中国被灭后 文明就断层了呢
商女不知亡国恨，犹抱琵琶半遮面
andyfan1030 发表于 2011-7-4 08:24
商女不知亡国恨，犹抱琵琶半遮面
原句是商女不知亡国恨，隔江尤唱后庭花······果然断层了，唐诗都可以拿来说元朝文化断层的事了
商女不知亡国恨，犹抱琵琶半遮面
原句是商女不知亡国恨，隔江尤唱后庭花······果然断层了，唐诗都可以拿来说元朝文化断层的事了
商女不知亡国恨，犹抱琵琶半遮面
andyfan1030 发表于 2011-7-4 08:24
商女不知亡国恨，犹抱琵琶半遮面
胡诌两句八竿子打不到一块的诗，就证明中华文明传承断了？你现在接触的难道是天顶星文化？不要把无知当个性
商女不知亡国恨，犹抱琵琶半遮面
胡诌两句八竿子打不到一块的诗，就证明中华文明传承断了？你现在接触的难道是天顶星文化？不要把无知当个性
什么情况？？