拼接错误的嫦娥照片只是当前科技界浮躁心态的冰山一角

不想唱衰什么
只是希望大家都能冷静和理智一些
就事论事
谢绝谩骂

还是少一些炒作
多一些脚踏实地的工作吧

国情如此。。。如果你不去炒，那你就什么项目也得不到。这是全民的共性，单纯从科技界改起不太可能。。。你也说了如果不改变政绩靠炒。。。这种社会现实就不可能改变现在的科技界浮躁的毛病。:lol

没错，罗马不是一天建成，我们的决策者尤其要耐得住寂寞才行。

原帖由 flyablepig 于 2007-12-5 21:43 发表
首先声明，我本人就是在某一个国家级的科研单位工作的；
其次，我对航天事业中出现的问题从来都是“恨铁不成钢”的心态的。

一段时间以来，关于嫦娥一号的新闻成为了大家关注的焦点
航天工作也继神舟以后再一次 ...

搞笑的是欧阳自远亲自出面讲解如何拼图的，也没讲明白到底是不是多了一个陨石坑。

其实不必反应过度
倒是外国的反映比较客观，下面是一篇博客

--------------------------------------------------

Chinese Moon Photo Not Fake, But Not Pristine
By John Borland December 05, 2007 | 8:54:53 AMCategories: Space   

For the last week, rumors have flooded the Net that China's moon photo, posted here and elsewhere, was a fake. Some bloggers and commentators argued that in fact it was a NASA photo, and that the Chinese hadn't produced anything original at all.

The rumors reached such a pitch that Chinese lunar scientist Ouyang Ziyuan felt compelled to refute them on Monday, noting a bit acerbically that the Chinese and American orbiters did, in fact, take pictures of the same spot.

Thankfully, Planetary Society blogger Emily Lakdawalla has done her homework, rather than rely on insinuation and guesswork. She compared old photos of the moon from NASA's Clementine orbiter with the new photo, and found considerable similarities – they were indeed depicting the same location – but enough differences to prove they were separate photos.

Most notably, the light in the Chinese photo was coming from a different direction. Possible to fake, like everything with Photoshop, but pretty unlikely.

Particularly, it turns out, given what else she saw. Ouyang had earlier pointed out an apparently new crater in the Chinese photo, which – when Lakdawalla looked closely – was fairly obviously the artifact of an improperly joined seam, where different photographic strips had been joined and blended to make a prettier whole.

This kind of photo manipulation is common, although misjoints like this aren't. Many photos seen of space objects are "composite," meaning several different images have been joined, sometimes even from different cameras or telescopes.

Lakdawalla sums up the story well:

So, in a way, the story has come full circle. The Chang'e image isn't a fake as far as I can tell; my personal opinion, based upon the evidence I was able to dig up, is that the Chinese do have an orbiter at the Moon, and that it is producing really beautiful images that are a great improvement over Clementine. But the one released image is a processed product, and was altered slightly (the seams were blended away) to make it pretty. This alteration made it difficult for a scientist to realize that what appeared to be a new feature was in fact an artifact.

For a detailed look at the images in question, and how they compare, visit Lakdawalla's post here. I'm not going to post the comparison here, because she deserves full credit.  

It's odd that moon images are so often questioned. We can do so many other things that stagger the imagination; why are people reluctant to believe that we can't go to the Moon? I find it also particularly interesting that many people are apparently willing to believe something so improbable (faking a moon mission? That's serious business, way harder than faking a memoir or a resume).

Skepticism is certainly useful, but there's an ugly scent in the air when so much extraordinarily bitter criticism gets leveled at China in particular.

Kudos to Lakdawalla for untangling this rumor.

No, the Chang'e image isn't fake – but there's no new feature in it either  [Planetary Society blog]

(Image: Cropped element of lunar photo from Chang'e mission. Credit: China National Space Adminstration)

原帖由 暗夜流星 于 2007-12-5 22:08 发表
其实不必反应过度
倒是外国的反映比较客观，下面是一篇博客

--------------------------------------------------

Chinese Moon Photo Not Fake, But Not Pristine
By John Borland December 05, 2007 | 8:5 ...

有些人害怕讲问题，认为一讲问题就把功绩全否定了。越是大人物，往往越不敢承认错误。

感谢伟大的防火墙，我在国内的网络上无法将某些国外的新闻张贴给大家，总之我们出名了了，华南虎和假月照的争论全世界都知道了 ;P

下面来自英国每日电讯网站

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

China defends lunar probe pictures
By Richard Spencer in Beijing
Last Updated: 7:05am GMT 04/12/2007



The head scientist of China's flagship lunar probe programme has been forced to defend the authenticity of its first published photograph after internet moon-gazers suggested it might be a copy.

Beijing to target bike thieves with identity scheme
Richard Spencer's Beijing blog
The Chinese prime minister, Wen Jiabao, unveiled the first photograph sent back on the inaugural mission of the Chang-e 1 lunar probe amid much patriotic emotion last week.


China's lunar probe pictures taken last week, left, and the 2005 NASA pictures, right. The extra hole in the Chinese pictures could suggest it was hit by an extra meteorite.

But in a response to public scepticism unusual for such a token of national pride, internet bulletin boards began pointing out the similarity of the photograph to one published by NASA, the American space agency, two years ago.

Ouyang Ziyuan, head scientist of the China Lunar Exploration Project, issued a statement insisting the photograph had not been copied and really was genuine.

"China's first moon photo is absolutely not a fake,” he said, adding that though the two shots were of the same part of the moon's surface, a new crater was shown in the Chinese version.

Chang'e 1, named after a fairy who fled to the moon from an unhappy marriage, was launched in October to much fanfare.

advertisementIt represents the start of the second phase, after manned space flight, of China's long-term goal of putting a man on the moon by 2020.

When the first photograph, a compilation of 19 individual shots, was unveiled to the public, Mr Wen was described by state media as "passionate", an unusual epithet for a Chinese Communist Party leader.

"Chinese people's dream of flying to the moon for more than 1,000 years has started to materialize," he said.

"It showcases eloquently that the Chinese people have the will, the ambition and the capability to compose more shining new chapters while ascending the science and technology summit."

But one bulletin board poster, who called himself IMCC, wondered if it was a coincidence that the picture was so similar to the NASA version.

"The two pictures are not just alike," he wrote. "They are actually are the same. If this is indeed a fake, I feel truly sorry. How can such a big country try to fool the public?"

The suggestion might be regarded as another coming-of-age ritual for the fast-developing China, like the space programme itself.

After all, the allegation that Neil Armstrong's moon landing of 1969 was faked by NASA is one of the international conspiracy theorist's favourites.

However it comes at a time when China's 160 million internet surfers scent blood.

The most widely discussed dispute of recent weeks has been about whether a photograph allegedly of a South China tiger in a forest, which would have been the first sighting for years of an animal now thought only to survive in zoos, was created by photoshop.

The photograph was widely publicised and welcomed by government wildlife officials.

An official inquiry yesterday pronounced it fake - two weeks after an internet hunt which eventually found a calendar shot of a tiger whose appearance was identical to that apparently photographed in the forest.

"When the tiger-man was eventually shown to be a fake, the whole world laughed," IMCC went on. "Maybe this is the same. What on earth is going on?"

Not everyone agreed. One pointed out that since NASA had photographed the entire surface of the moon, a Chinese version could only be a fake if it didn't have a perfect match in the American set.

Close examination of the two lunar photographs does suggest that they were of the same section of the moon - a highland area located between 54 to 70 degrees south latitude and 57 to 83 degrees east longitude.

But there does seem to be an extra hole in the Chinese version, which Mr Ouyang attributed to the possibility that the surface had been struck by a meteorite or other celestial body in the last two years.

Or, he added, the Chinese photograph might just be of better quality than the American.

But there does seem to be an extra hole in the Chinese version, which Mr Ouyang attributed to the possibility that the surface had been struck by a meteorite or other celestial body in the last two years.
-----------------------------------------------------------
不会吧。不知道会不会被nature转了去。

来自路透，不知道欧阳先生这话怎么收回去？
------------------------------------------------------
China says moon pictures not faked from NASA

powered by  Sphere
Featured Broker sponsored link

BEIJING (Reuters) - China has dismissed Internet gossip that its first photo of the moon taken from a lunar orbiter might have been plagiarized from NASA, local media said on Monday.

The country launched its first lunar probe, the Chang'e 1, in October and released a photo featuring a patch of grey moon surface splotched with craters last week, hailing the mission as a "complete success."

But some Chinese Internet users have questioned its originality after comparing it with an almost identical lunar image from the U.S. National Aeronautics and Space Administration in 2005.

"There is absolutely no forgery," Ouyang Ziyuan, chief scientist for the lunar probe, told the Beijing News.

The Chinese and U.S. lunar images looked similar only because they had aimed at the same area of the moon's southern hemisphere, Ouyang was quoted as saying.

"But a careful examination will tell some small differences," Ouyang said.

There were two craters on a certain spot of the Chinese photo, but there was only one on that same spot of the American picture, the Beijing News quoted him as saying.

"Maybe it's because the resolution of the American photo was not high enough, or a new pit might have been generated by an asteroid hitting the moon between 2005 and 2007," Ouyang said.

"I understand the doubts of the Internet surfers. They hope the Chinese lunar probe can do well so they don't want the photo to turn out to be fake," he said.

其实国外的新闻媒体这件事情上还是比较客观，把各方面的意见都呈现给读者。

呵呵，玩就玩个大的。欧阳自远现在不知道心情如何。

眼睛都张在狗身上了，欧阳的＂maybe...or／possibility"都无视了．
有必要把话收回吗？
对于一种还没确定的任何一种情况都可以用可能／或许／可能性等字眼来解释．他又没像周老虎那样用脑袋担保就是这样．

原帖由 暗夜流星 于 2007-12-5 22:17 发表
感谢伟大的防火墙，我在国内的网络上无法将某些国外的新闻张贴给大家，总之我们出名了了，华南虎和假月照的争论全世界都知道了 ;P

下面来自英国每日电讯网站

---------------------------------------------- ...

睁眼说瞎话，这些网络受防火墙影响吗？
华南虎事件说明我们国家政府机构的诚性出现危机，而月照的争论却反映了普通老百姓的心理浮躁，加上一些别有用心的人的煽风点火．
国外主流媒体对华南虎有疑问，还没见过对月照有疑问的．
这些媒体把华南虎与月照放在一起的目的并不是表达两件事情可以相提并论，而是反映了中国的一种社会问题．诚性危机．

原帖由 victoryhan 于 2007-12-6 00:26 发表
眼睛都张在狗身上了，欧阳的＂maybe...or／possibility"都无视了．
有必要把话收回吗？
对于一种还没确定的任何一种情况都可以用可能／或许／可能性等字眼来解释．他又没像周老虎那样用脑袋担保就是这样．

对于某些人来说，这些词都被自动过滤了:D

我想问楼主的是 你在国家级的科研单位工作，你的科研水平是否达到中国航天在国际上的水平吗？
你们单位一点都不浮躁？
你自己一点都不浮躁？

多一些脚踏实地的工作吧，我觉得应该从楼主你自己身上开始做起

国家级科研单位的就这水平？
看你这发言也知道就是个菜鸟，踏踏实实做研究的人多得很，你自己应该反省一下了，
少花点时间来超大。

:D 乃应该说自己是国防科工委滴

什么问题都动辄就上纲上线的不好。

美国暴两架航天飞机怎么说？航天问题问题不断，还继续发射又怎么说？

另外，中国人是人不是神，至于西方。。。。。。那伊拉克的大规模杀伤性武器又怎么说？还别说其他的，登月那据说1万多盒录像带，就在NASA人间蒸发，又怎么说？

靠，这个世界如果有绝对独立与政治而独立存在的事情，那就奇怪了。

踏实？各位动辄就凭借着自己的主观臆断，就给别人下结论，那才叫浮躁呢。喜欢盲目的跟风，人云亦云，那才叫浮躁呢，看见一个问题就去否定一片，那才叫浮躁呢。

浮躁？你自己做踏实了，在说话来得及。

其实许多人并非不知道“嫦娥月照”与“周老虎”不可同日而语，但在官方对“周老虎”造假一事从初始的力挺、后来的漠视质疑，倒现在的曲解回避，让大家对官方的公信力大打折扣:@
他们有意借两件事情的比向让管理层表明：“在官方不坦率诚信的情况下，今天我们还能相信什么？”——当公权力的诚信荡然无存的时候，也许有一天，我们会对着官方的法令嗤之以鼻：“那个玩意儿是真的莫？”
        很大程度上，嫦娥工程不过是“周老虎”事件中城门失火所殃及的池鱼罢了（鉴于许多网友对鱼的种类很敏感，特别声明此鱼并非甲鱼:D ）:P

看了某些“爱国青年”的发言，我深刻地感到
随着网络的普及，网民的素质从整体上来说是大大的下降了
我曾经在自己的博客中抱怨过
照理说互联网和计算机都是当代最璀璨的文明成果
我们只要随便动动鼠标
就可以接通世界上最顶尖的研究机构，实验室和大学
但是在这个自由的世界中
我发现我们某些人的思维却是如此的狭窄
技术和工具给了网民自由
网民却不会利用这些自由
这恐怕也是对于“技术乐观主义者”的当头一棒
不是么？
互联网对于中国网民是什么？
盗版电影的宝库？
一夜情的工具？
巨大的游戏机？
肆意发泄情绪的场所？
从这种意义上来说“数字鸿沟”可能根本就是个伪命题
是啊
如果他们只是用这玩意来“挖地雷”
下载盗版电影
你给孩子免费发放100$笔记本有什么价值？
我在这个论坛中大提“科普”的重要性
只是我痛感在“嫦娥”事件中两派的偏执
相信者衡相信
不信者衡不信
在这里充斥着相信者的偏执
而KD之类的论坛里面充斥着另外一种
嗨
荷尔蒙和肾上腺素才是耀眼的明星
至于事实的真相和技术的美妙
绝大多数人其实并不在乎 :b ;P

越想越觉得可笑，不是么？
这里真正对于嫦娥的任务和有效载荷感兴趣的人有多少？
对于月球探索感兴趣的人有多少？
有1/1000么？:P

首先反省自己的问题吧，这样的错误是不应该犯的。:(

中国是外星人的国家,同以上各位都没有关系.请问各位来自哪颗星球!!??

还是希望所有的人都能静下心来~
心浮气躁的并非只有科技界~
想前段时间出现的嫦娥失踪说，数据传输障碍说，月球照片造假说等等，无不反应出很多人的心浮气躁~
对于具体的技术方面本人是外行~
但是像嫦娥工程这样一个庞大的系统工程，我想没有人敢保证，似乎也没有人保证过100%的没有错误~
既然要心平气和的讨论问题，那么有错误要改正，同样的有成绩也要肯定~
无论是只看到成绩就自满，还是只抓住错误不放，都不是真正解决问题的态度~

原帖由 hupiwen 于 2007-12-6 11:54 发表
首先反省自己的问题吧，这样的错误是不应该犯的。:(

我想只要是错误都是不应该犯的，否则就不叫错误了~
作为一次试验性质的科研活动，不就是为了找出其中可能产生的错误和不足，从而自我反省和改正么？

大家的情绪被一个tw人点燃，其实也不错，发现问题解决问题，谁的认识也不可能一步到位
就算愚民被有目的的人摆布久了，也会反思一下的，顺其自然吧

还没明确证据的情况下，急着跳出来表演
不知道是谁浮躁

原帖由 hunterno1 于 2007-12-6 12:12 发表

我想只要是错误都是不应该犯的，否则就不叫错误了~
作为一次试验性质的科研活动，不就是为了找出其中可能产生的错误和不足，从而自我反省和改正么？

你的话没错。

不过错误跟错误不一样。“低级错误”是不应该犯的，犯这样的错只能说是责任心不够、敬业精神不够。这样的错误，应该批判。

另一种错误----在探索前人未走过的道路上犯的错，则应该宽容对待。如果，嫦娥在飞行途中出了什么问题，甚至没有能进入月球轨道，俺都会以鼓励对待，因为那是我们没有经历过的。这样的错，才符合你讲的条件。

你说是么？

打铁还需自身硬哪。希望航天人戒骄戒躁，取得新的成功。

原帖由 yxtk 于 2007-12-6 09:21 发表
我想问楼主的是 你在国家级的科研单位工作，你的科研水平是否达到中国航天在国际上的水平吗？
你们单位一点都不浮躁？
你自己一点都不浮躁？

多一些脚踏实地的工作吧，我觉得应该从楼主你自己身上开始做起

我就是因为从我自己身上和我的身边看到了太多的浮躁
才会有这么多感受
不是为了攻击中国航天

至于“我”的科研水平是否达到中国航天在国际上的水平
我觉得这个命题是不成立的
我只能说我所在单位在国际上的水平并不落后

我在主贴里对应还举了一个非典的病原体曾经被某院士误认为是衣原体的例子
这也是因为当前的科研环境太浮躁啊

如果不是这个圈子里面的人
可能很难有感受的

大家都太迫切需要炒作
需要政绩了

原帖由 hupiwen 于 2007-12-6 14:53 发表


你的话没错。

不过错误跟错误不一样。“低级错误”是不应该犯的，犯这样的错只能说是责任心不够、敬业精神不够。这样的错误，应该批判。

另一种错误----在探索前人未走过的道路上犯的错，则应该宽容对待。 ...

嫦娥工程本身就是中国进行的一次探索，我不知道里面的什么错误才算低级错误，什么错误才叫做高级错误，在科学研究上没有小事，没有什么错误是可以犯的，什么错误是不可以犯的，只要犯了就是错误，但是不能因为犯了错误就上纲上线，就搞批判，甚至揪住特定的某个人的言语错误讽刺挖苦，这难道是解决问题的办法么？
即使前人探索过的，在我们自己再走的时候未必就不会犯错误，请记住，嫦娥工程是我们国家自己进行的第一次深空探测，在走自己的路时，借鉴别人的经验可以更好的避免犯错，但不是绝对不会犯错~
犯了错误当然要反省，要反省是不是责任心不够，是不是敬业精神不够，这肯定是应该的，但是，仅仅是这些么？数据处理的方法，软件有没有错误？我想无论单纯的强调态度决定一切，还是单纯的强调技术决定一切都是不对的~
我觉得，现在要反省的不单单是科研人员，所有的人都应该反省一下自己对待错误的态度。
以上纯属个人观点，不针对任何人。得罪之处，请多包涵！

主要是有了错误要让大家知道，要勇于承认错误，从虎到嫦娥，我看到的只是没人出来承认错误，这个是正常的么？！！！！某些媒体和部门都没诚信，让人呕吐地作假着或自取其辱地沉默着，就是这么简单，一个字：假！

原帖由 flyablepig 于 2007-12-6 17:35 发表
我在主贴里对应还举了一个非典的病原体曾经被某院士误认为是衣原体的例子
这也是因为当前的科研环境太浮躁啊

如果不是这个圈子里面的人
可能很难有感受的

大家都太迫切需要炒作
需要政绩了

呵呵，关于这个衣原体问题，当时院士的说法是“可能是衣原体”，因为他的提取实验只进行到前两步，没有满足科赫法则，但报导出来则显得十分肯定。

原帖由 引心公子 于 2007-12-6 21:06 发表
主要是有了错误要让大家知道，要勇于承认错误，从虎到嫦娥，我看到的只是没人出来承认错误，这个是正常的么？！！！！某些媒体和部门都没诚信，让人呕吐地作假着或自取其辱地沉默着，就是这么简单，一个字：假！

出错与造假是两回事！

嫦娥冲天圆国人千年梦 1.7万航天人心血应受尊重  

2007年12月05日 来源：中国新闻网

　　中新网12月5日电 “嫦娥一号”一飞冲天，国人千年梦圆。中国首颗探月卫星“嫦娥一号”从三十八万公里之遥发回我国首张月面图像，近日却被国内网民指有造假之嫌，令人心痛。《澳门日报》五日发表的社论指出，这是对一万七千多名“嫦娥一号”工程科硏人员的极大侮辱！

　　社评表示，这些网民的“理据”是中国首幅月图与美国○五年拍摄的月图极为相似，可能是“克隆”之作。对于网民对中国首幅月图的污蔑，绕月探测工程总指挥栾恩杰四日回应称：“不知道哪位网民说是假的，但是我可以吿诉你，我们这个图是一万七千余人奋斗了四年拿到的。我希望国人、正直的国人尊重我们的劳动，尊重中国人的成果。” “拿到第一张图的时候，全体参硏参试人员全都落泪了。”

　　社评指出，全体科硏人员落泪，是喜极而泣，是紧张心情的尽情抒发。“嫦娥一号”升空后，究竟能否顺利到达预定轨道围绕月球自转？能否顺利启动星上仪器拍摄月球照片，并将数据传回地球？这些问题一直牵动着每一位航天人的心。首幅月图面世，他们悬在心头的大石终于可以放下，为之奋斗多年的梦想终于实现，激动之情不言而喻。

　　“中国航天人再一次以自己的心血和汗水，交出了一份令人满意的答卷，你们无愧于祖国和人民的厚望和重托！”温家宝总理掷地有声的四十五个字，代表中央和国务院对首次探月工程圆满成功和对广大航天科硏人员辛勤付出的充分肯定。

　　社论表示，从人造地球卫星、载人航天到探月工程，中国航天事业进入了一个又一个新里程，这里面凝聚了太多航天人的心血。许多航天人为了我国航天事业的振兴摸早贪黑，废寝忘餐，不计报酬，奉献自己的靑春甚至生命，个中辛酸，外界知之甚少。他们日以继夜地工作，最终取得举世瞩目的成就，应该受到全国人民的尊重。

　　美国人、日本人对中国首幅月图都是持赞赏的态度，毫不质疑中国月图的真实性，因为他们知道，中国人完全有能力拍摄出月图，不可能向世界撒弥天大谎。而且“嫦娥一号”真真实实地正在绕月。

　　为何中美月图会如此相似？社评指，中国探月工程首席科学家欧阳自远二日已作详细解释；另外，绕月探测工程总设计师孙家栋也说，上天以后，“嫦娥一号”轨道是完全公开的，这幅图像具体在什么地点、什么时间拍摄都一清二楚，这是无可争辩的事实。

　　社评指出，未来一年，“嫦娥一号”将陆续发回更多的月球图像和探测数据，包括世界首幅整个月球的三维影像，造假谣言将不攻自破。

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