45型驱逐舰返厂

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原文地址如下
http://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/ ... ems-in-perspective/


原文标题及部分节选

Putting the Type 45 propulsion problems in perspective

The problem
The Type 45 uses a pioneering system called Integrated Electric Propulsion (IEP). There are many advantages associated with IEP, fuel efficiency, flexibility in locating the engines and a supposedly reduced maintenance and manning requirement. In basic terms, two WR-21 gas turbines (GTs) and two Wartsila 2MW diesel generators provide AC power for the motors that propel the ship as well as the power for the ships systems – weapons, sensors lighting etc. The WR-21 GTs were designed in an international partnership with Rolls Royce and Northrop Grumman Marine Systems. The turbines are of a sound design but have an intercooler-recuperator that recovers heat from the exhaust and recycles it into the engine, making it more fuel-efficient and reducing the ship’s thermal signature. Unfortunately the intercooler unit has a major design flaw and causes the GTs to fail occasionally. When this happens, the electrical load on the diesel generators can become too great and they ‘trip out’, leaving the ship with no source of power or propulsion.

The MoD has not revealed how frequently these blackouts have occurred but the first 2 ships, HMS Daring and HMS Dauntless seem to have suffered the most. The first indication of problems was as far back as 2010 when it was admitted HMS Daring lost all power in mid-Atlantic and had to be repaired in Canada. Although the Type 45s have been active, some significant commitments have been missed. An indication that all is not well could be seen by the number of Type 45s alongside in Portsmouth at any given time during the last few years. Historically the RN has never been a fleet of ‘harbour queens’ and today’s over-worked navy can ill-afford unreliable ships. HMS Daring entered service in 2009, it has taken more than 6 years to agree to deal with the problem and it will probably be well after 2020 before the work is completed. It is obviously dangerous from a seamanship and navigational point of view to suddenly lose propulsion at any time. It is even more serious when operating in a high threat environment as the ship would be a sitting duck.


A radical cure
A feasibility study into upgrading the generators was completed by BAES and the MoD in March 2015. The funding for the “Type 45 machinery improvement package” was agreed in the November 2015 SDSR and at least the problem has finally been recognised and funds are in place. Each vessel will have to be dry-docked, large openings cut in the hull and one or possibly two new diesel generator sets slid into place.

Type 45 destroyer propulsion arrangement
Type 45 destroyer propulsion general arrangement. Removing and replacing the diesel generator sets would appear to present significant work. Image: Rolls Royce.

Replacement of the WR-21 GTs is not a practical option. Instead additional or more powerful diesel generators will provide long-term redundancy and assurance that electrical supplies can be maintained in the event of GT failure. The good news is that the large Type 45 design has the space and reserve buoyancy to cope with larger or additional diesels. The rectification work on the six ships will be done one by one as part of the normal major refit cycle. This will extend the length of the refits but should not have an especially dramatic effect on frontline availability.


45型因为WR-21中冷回热系统的故障而导致失去有效发电功率的情况越来越严重,现在英国佬的坚决办法就是返厂切开船体然后多加一些柴油机发电机组。
原文地址如下
http://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/ ... ems-in-perspective/


原文标题及部分节选

Putting the Type 45 propulsion problems in perspective

The problem
The Type 45 uses a pioneering system called Integrated Electric Propulsion (IEP). There are many advantages associated with IEP, fuel efficiency, flexibility in locating the engines and a supposedly reduced maintenance and manning requirement. In basic terms, two WR-21 gas turbines (GTs) and two Wartsila 2MW diesel generators provide AC power for the motors that propel the ship as well as the power for the ships systems – weapons, sensors lighting etc. The WR-21 GTs were designed in an international partnership with Rolls Royce and Northrop Grumman Marine Systems. The turbines are of a sound design but have an intercooler-recuperator that recovers heat from the exhaust and recycles it into the engine, making it more fuel-efficient and reducing the ship’s thermal signature. Unfortunately the intercooler unit has a major design flaw and causes the GTs to fail occasionally. When this happens, the electrical load on the diesel generators can become too great and they ‘trip out’, leaving the ship with no source of power or propulsion.

The MoD has not revealed how frequently these blackouts have occurred but the first 2 ships, HMS Daring and HMS Dauntless seem to have suffered the most. The first indication of problems was as far back as 2010 when it was admitted HMS Daring lost all power in mid-Atlantic and had to be repaired in Canada. Although the Type 45s have been active, some significant commitments have been missed. An indication that all is not well could be seen by the number of Type 45s alongside in Portsmouth at any given time during the last few years. Historically the RN has never been a fleet of ‘harbour queens’ and today’s over-worked navy can ill-afford unreliable ships. HMS Daring entered service in 2009, it has taken more than 6 years to agree to deal with the problem and it will probably be well after 2020 before the work is completed. It is obviously dangerous from a seamanship and navigational point of view to suddenly lose propulsion at any time. It is even more serious when operating in a high threat environment as the ship would be a sitting duck.


A radical cure
A feasibility study into upgrading the generators was completed by BAES and the MoD in March 2015. The funding for the “Type 45 machinery improvement package” was agreed in the November 2015 SDSR and at least the problem has finally been recognised and funds are in place. Each vessel will have to be dry-docked, large openings cut in the hull and one or possibly two new diesel generator sets slid into place.

Type 45 destroyer propulsion arrangement
Type 45 destroyer propulsion general arrangement. Removing and replacing the diesel generator sets would appear to present significant work. Image: Rolls Royce.

Replacement of the WR-21 GTs is not a practical option. Instead additional or more powerful diesel generators will provide long-term redundancy and assurance that electrical supplies can be maintained in the event of GT failure. The good news is that the large Type 45 design has the space and reserve buoyancy to cope with larger or additional diesels. The rectification work on the six ships will be done one by one as part of the normal major refit cycle. This will extend the length of the refits but should not have an especially dramatic effect on frontline availability.


45型因为WR-21中冷回热系统的故障而导致失去有效发电功率的情况越来越严重,现在英国佬的坚决办法就是返厂切开船体然后多加一些柴油机发电机组。
WR21的间冷回热技术可能不太成熟,这种舰双燃四柴可能更好点。
军舰失了可靠性将一文不值。
45原来是WR21中冷回热的问题!
之前刚报道出问题的时候,论坛里各种说法!
WR21的间冷回热技术可能不太成熟,这种舰双燃四柴可能更好点。
直接6台9MW柴油发电机组,反潜可能坑些

bizhu886 发表于 2016-6-4 12:28
直接6台9MW柴油发电机组,反潜可能坑些


大哥!就算最牛MTU8000一台干重大概45吨啊!6台,我了个去。臣妾做不到啊!一般这种舰四台3MW左右的柴机可能还行,再加上两台燃机。
bizhu886 发表于 2016-6-4 12:28
直接6台9MW柴油发电机组,反潜可能坑些


大哥!就算最牛MTU8000一台干重大概45吨啊!6台,我了个去。臣妾做不到啊!一般这种舰四台3MW左右的柴机可能还行,再加上两台燃机。
额~~这算建造失误还是设计失误?
m18721418069 发表于 2016-6-4 13:53
额~~这算建造失误还是设计失误?
设计失误, 系统总功率冗余度不够
看来不是综合电力系统问题。
哈,皿煮的军舰怎么会这样,一定是 嫉妒人家 强盗
还不如老美的LM2500可靠。
WR21吹了这么多年都没见谁用MT30倒用的很多.45用1台30配4柴油机多好
ZumSuperHochbur 发表于 2016-6-4 16:14
WR21吹了这么多年都没见谁用MT30倒用的很多.45用1台30配4柴油机多好
理论上应该也没什么问题,而且是综电的无所谓。如果两台MT30 加四台柴油机的话,推动055这个吨位的舰应该也是没太大问题的。
新鲜事物总有点反复的
很好的诠释了054a为什么要建32艘,而054B迟迟没有消息
一开始听说是全电的问题,
后来传是柴油发电机的问题,
现在说是燃机上间冷回热的问题
超CD大 发表于 2016-6-4 17:15
一开始听说是全电的问题,
后来传是柴油发电机的问题,
现在说是燃机上间冷回热的问题
一般柴油发电机很成熟,应该不会出问题,综电出问题还可以理解,真没想到时燃机的间冷回热出问题。真是阴沟里翻船啊!
LFL 发表于 2016-6-4 17:19
一般柴油发电机很成熟,应该不会出问题,综电出问题还可以理解,真没想到时燃机的间冷回热出问题。真是阴 ...
如果45用1台MT30+N台柴油发电机组来满足发电功率需求的话还能节省机舱长度 像052D一样配备后部VLS
一般柴油发电机很成熟,应该不会出问题,综电出问题还可以理解,真没想到时燃机的间冷回热出问题。真是阴 ...
WR-21就靠这个间冷回热吃饭,
这一出问题,估计更没人采用了
超CD大 发表于 2016-6-4 17:26
WR-21就靠这个间冷回热吃饭,
这一出问题,估计更没人采用了
这个WR21本来就只有45型用,卖也卖不出去,因为省出的油钱还不如多出的采购费。结构还复杂,WR21的核心机也非常的老,看来间冷技术用于舰用燃机还会有段距离。
殷岂 发表于 2016-6-4 17:22
如果45用1台MT30+N台柴油发电机组来满足发电功率需求的话还能节省机舱长度 像052D一样配备后部VLS
这个欧洲的舰一般都不会多放垂发,形势不紧迫。英国吃了马岛的亏,很重视舰船生存性,这方面付出的代价很多。
一般柴油发电机很成熟,应该不会出问题,综电出问题还可以理解,真没想到时燃机的间冷回热出问题。真是阴 ...
我记得原来的帖子,还有人和你争,说是柴燃联合的问题。。。
未来航空兵 发表于 2016-6-4 18:00
我记得原来的帖子,还有人和你争,说是柴燃联合的问题。。。
那位压根就不知道45型的基本动力布局。压根就没什么好争的,老实说当时我还以为是综电出了问题,万万没想到是间冷回热出问题。
那位压根就不知道45型的基本动力布局。压根就没什么好争的,老实说当时我还以为是综电出了问题,万万没想 ...
不知道纯间冷的能好点不。。。
未来航空兵 发表于 2016-6-4 18:08
不知道纯间冷的能好点不。。。
也别抱太大希望!越复杂越容易出问题。回热器挺复杂的,光个翅板回热器工艺就很逆天。
也别抱太大希望!越复杂越容易出问题。回热器挺复杂的,光个翅板回热器工艺就很逆天。
我记得有说25000IC是中间贴12个间冷器?
未来航空兵 发表于 2016-6-4 18:14
我记得有说25000IC是中间贴12个间冷器?
具体的真不知道,但好像没实用的报道!
英国人的保密工作怎么做的。
柴油机一般不会有大问题,现在这种情况,要在舰体上挖个洞,真的有点尴尬
切船体加柴油发电机,最无奈的方案,这个代价太大了吧,原来还说是综电是问题,莫非燃机实在搞不定了?
造了六艘发现出问题了?
不知问题普遍不?
一艘如此还是都这样?


45型水平不俗,但看来推进系统上新技术用多了。

45上面的设备号称80%是新的或者没有大规模量产过的!
动力系统上,看来7000吨级舰的·“全电综合”即便对美英也是稍微激进了点。


45型水平不俗,但看来推进系统上新技术用多了。

45上面的设备号称80%是新的或者没有大规模量产过的!
动力系统上,看来7000吨级舰的·“全电综合”即便对美英也是稍微激进了点。
还是小步快跑好,造一条先跑个一年看看
张俊 发表于 2016-6-4 21:22
造了六艘发现出问题了?
都要返厂 利用正常维护进坞机会
clm221 发表于 2016-6-4 21:32
还是小步快跑好,造一条先跑个一年看看
第一条用的第一年就暴露问题了
但是英国佬硬是捂了六年  
666
新技术风险大,明白为什么我们对滑越起飞很慎重
呵呵,不知道武松,055出这问题,cd上面怎么说
SAABTURBOX 发表于 2016-6-4 22:40
呵呵,不知道武松,055出这问题,cd上面怎么说
其实052C/D的船用电发电功率也是有点偏小
只不过报道不多 知道的人也不多
问题也不算太严重

LFL 发表于 2016-6-4 12:31
大哥!就算最牛MTU8000一台干重大概45吨啊!6台,我了个去。臣妾做不到啊!一般这种舰四台3MW左右的柴 ...


据说是拆掉一台燃机 加装数台柴油机
LFL 发表于 2016-6-4 12:31
大哥!就算最牛MTU8000一台干重大概45吨啊!6台,我了个去。臣妾做不到啊!一般这种舰四台3MW左右的柴 ...


据说是拆掉一台燃机 加装数台柴油机