华尔街日报:澳大利亚购买苍龙面临困难

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没有时间翻译为中文,如果翻译不准确望大家理解。大意是说:
250亿澳元的交易,政府智囊团说该交易有很大困难,苍龙号和Collins号比较起来其载量似乎更小,持久性更短,灵活性更差,澳大利亚政府面临更换潜艇的压力,因为本国潜艇1996服役以来一直有可靠性和噪音问题;澳大利亚购买潜艇是因为中国;如果进口日本潜艇,它需要大范围的更改,同时日本出口武器因其经验不足而带来难题;苍龙之所以受到重视是因为安培访问澳大利亚时达成的协议;苍龙作为世界最大的常规潜艇,澳大利亚可能寻求美国的作战系统;法国/瑞典公司敦促澳大利亚政府公开招标,但是目前政府没有作决定;但是决定可能2015年出台;


By
Rob Taylor




Jan. 21, 2015 12:13 a.m. ET

0 COMMENTS  

CANBERRA, Australia—Australia’s government came under fresh pressure Wednesday to reject Japanese submarines as the spearhead for a new undersea fleet, with one of the country’s top security think-tanks urging consideration of a homegrown naval deterrent.

As newly appointed Defense Minister Kevin Andrews prepared to inspect government-owned shipbuilder ASC this week ahead of a decision on whether to hold a tender competition for a A$25 billion fleet of new conventional submarines, the Australian Strategic Policy Institute said the possible acquisition of Japanese submarines by Australia raised significant challenges.

Japan’s 4,000-ton Soryu-class submarine “appears to have less payload, endurance and mobility” than Australia’s current Collins-class submarines, said the government-backed institute, which provides independent defense advice and to cabinet ministers and the military.

Australia’s government is urgently looking to replace its aging fleet of six Collins-class submarines, which has been plagued by reliability and noise problems since its 1996 introduction. Submarines are at the heart of Australia’s plans to beef up its military capabilities, driven by worries over Chinese muscle-flexing in territorial disputes with its neighbors.

The author of the ASPI report, former Australian submarine commander Peter Briggs, said Japan’s Soryu would have to be extensively modified to suit Australian requirements, while Japan’s inexperience as a weapons exporter could create obstacles.

“In Japan’s case, accessing all the relevant technologies during the course of an overseas build of a complex vessel and understanding the design intent … would be extraordinarily ambitious and inherently risky,” Mr. Briggs said.

The Soryu gained an edge in the selection process after Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe and Australian Prime Minister Tony Abbott last year signed an agreement to strengthen security and trade ties.

The Soryu is the world’s largest diesel-electric submarine, jointly built by  Mitsubishi Heavy Industries  Ltd. and  Kawasaki Heavy Industries  Ltd. , although Australia would seek to fit its boats with American-manufactured combat systems.

European companies from Japan, Sweden and France have urged Canberra to hold a limited competition to select a submarine design. The conservative government has said no decision has yet been made on whether to buy diesel-electric submarines offshore or build them at home, but a selection is likely this year with Mr. Abbott pushing for an early decision.

Nick Xenophon, an independent lawmaker in Australian upper house who supports choosing a locally built submarine, said Wednesday that he recently met Mr. Andrews and received assurances the government hadn’t yet made up its mind on the purchase. Mr. Andrews’s office wasn’t immediately available to comment on the ASPI report or Mr. Xenophon’s statement.

A senior Australian defense official told The Wall Street Journal last week that tender decisions on a suite of military acquisitions were being delayed by a cabinet reshuffle announced by Mr. Abbott last month that resulted in Mr. Andrews’s appointment.

没有时间翻译为中文,如果翻译不准确望大家理解。大意是说:
250亿澳元的交易,政府智囊团说该交易有很大困难,苍龙号和Collins号比较起来其载量似乎更小,持久性更短,灵活性更差,澳大利亚政府面临更换潜艇的压力,因为本国潜艇1996服役以来一直有可靠性和噪音问题;澳大利亚购买潜艇是因为中国;如果进口日本潜艇,它需要大范围的更改,同时日本出口武器因其经验不足而带来难题;苍龙之所以受到重视是因为安培访问澳大利亚时达成的协议;苍龙作为世界最大的常规潜艇,澳大利亚可能寻求美国的作战系统;法国/瑞典公司敦促澳大利亚政府公开招标,但是目前政府没有作决定;但是决定可能2015年出台;


By
Rob Taylor




Jan. 21, 2015 12:13 a.m. ET

0 COMMENTS  

CANBERRA, Australia—Australia’s government came under fresh pressure Wednesday to reject Japanese submarines as the spearhead for a new undersea fleet, with one of the country’s top security think-tanks urging consideration of a homegrown naval deterrent.

As newly appointed Defense Minister Kevin Andrews prepared to inspect government-owned shipbuilder ASC this week ahead of a decision on whether to hold a tender competition for a A$25 billion fleet of new conventional submarines, the Australian Strategic Policy Institute said the possible acquisition of Japanese submarines by Australia raised significant challenges.

Japan’s 4,000-ton Soryu-class submarine “appears to have less payload, endurance and mobility” than Australia’s current Collins-class submarines, said the government-backed institute, which provides independent defense advice and to cabinet ministers and the military.

Australia’s government is urgently looking to replace its aging fleet of six Collins-class submarines, which has been plagued by reliability and noise problems since its 1996 introduction. Submarines are at the heart of Australia’s plans to beef up its military capabilities, driven by worries over Chinese muscle-flexing in territorial disputes with its neighbors.

The author of the ASPI report, former Australian submarine commander Peter Briggs, said Japan’s Soryu would have to be extensively modified to suit Australian requirements, while Japan’s inexperience as a weapons exporter could create obstacles.

“In Japan’s case, accessing all the relevant technologies during the course of an overseas build of a complex vessel and understanding the design intent … would be extraordinarily ambitious and inherently risky,” Mr. Briggs said.

The Soryu gained an edge in the selection process after Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe and Australian Prime Minister Tony Abbott last year signed an agreement to strengthen security and trade ties.

The Soryu is the world’s largest diesel-electric submarine, jointly built by  Mitsubishi Heavy Industries  Ltd. and  Kawasaki Heavy Industries  Ltd. , although Australia would seek to fit its boats with American-manufactured combat systems.

European companies from Japan, Sweden and France have urged Canberra to hold a limited competition to select a submarine design. The conservative government has said no decision has yet been made on whether to buy diesel-electric submarines offshore or build them at home, but a selection is likely this year with Mr. Abbott pushing for an early decision.

Nick Xenophon, an independent lawmaker in Australian upper house who supports choosing a locally built submarine, said Wednesday that he recently met Mr. Andrews and received assurances the government hadn’t yet made up its mind on the purchase. Mr. Andrews’s office wasn’t immediately available to comment on the ASPI report or Mr. Xenophon’s statement.

A senior Australian defense official told The Wall Street Journal last week that tender decisions on a suite of military acquisitions were being delayed by a cabinet reshuffle announced by Mr. Abbott last month that resulted in Mr. Andrews’s appointment.
一根筋跟另外一根筋谈生意,容易变成2杆子结果。
潜艇也是个大件,不会轻易决定,而且货比三家,彼此压价也是通常做法。
  这个我觉得非常奇怪:
载量似乎更小,持久性更短,灵活性更差
caricatore75 发表于 2015-1-21 13:55
这个我觉得非常奇怪:
载量似乎更小,持久性更短,灵活性更差
类似澳大利亚这样拥有漫长海岸线的国家,确实更适合大吨位的潜艇。
不过嘛,,,按说,大吨位的水面舰艇不是更好一点嘛。
这些都是一般性的问题,先前都有人提出过,其中日本第一次出口高端大型武器系统,技术转移专案管理的确堪虑。

柯林斯是专为澳洲量身打造的常规潜艇,很多特性都不是其他国家的设计可比(长续航力、通气管高速航行一边充电、极快的充电时间等),包括苍龙。

然而自由党政府要求澳洲海军从现货(off the shell)找潜艇设计,苍龙就会是唯一选择(柯林斯必须换掉那套问题丛生的推进系统,现在只有苍龙那套符合澳洲海军需求);加上大力推动日美澳同盟,使苍龙在政治端获得强有力的支持(包括美国)──无论澳洲海军的立场喜不喜欢。
这个我觉得非常奇怪:
载量似乎更小,持久性更短,灵活性更差
不是说苍龙很大持久性很强吗?
“澳大利亚购买潜艇是因为中国”真是莫名其妙,兔子招你惹你了
“澳大利亚购买潜艇是因为中国”真是莫名其妙,兔子招你惹你了
对抗中国可以拉近澳美关系。
大林8888 发表于 2015-1-21 14:41
“澳大利亚购买潜艇是因为中国”真是莫名其妙,兔子招你惹你了
   你我不这么想,白匪可是会那样想的,以后要给他们颜色看看!
大林8888 发表于 2015-1-21 14:41
“澳大利亚购买潜艇是因为中国”真是莫名其妙,兔子招你惹你了
没错,袋鼠国的白皮是典型的保守势力派,反华思想根深蒂固,不会因为跟你做生意就不把你当敌人,这跟MD的思想是完全一致的,从某种角度来看,袋鼠国就是个缩水版的MD。
kamille 发表于 2015-1-21 15:00
没错,袋鼠国的白皮是典型的保守势力派,反华思想根深蒂固,不会因为跟你做生意就不把你当敌人,这跟MD的 ...
要这么说还真是高看澳大利亚了。他顶多也就是大音帝国的跟屁虫,可惜主人这几十年衰败了。要不是地理位置重要,米国都懒得招呼他一下。
根据澳大利亚国防能力计划,柯林斯后继潜艇需要具备战略打击能力,也就是能发射潜射巡航导弹(不是反舰导弹)。
要这么说还真是高看澳大利亚了。他顶多也就是大音帝国的跟屁虫,可惜主人这几十年衰败了。要不是地理位置 ...
澳大利亚现在也有政治野心,不背靠美国怎么提高世界政治地位。
2015-1-21 17:03 上传

  为什么对付中国那是因为澳洲人智商问题 脑子问题你怎么找答案?
为什么对付中国那是因为澳洲人智商问题 脑子问题你怎么找答案?
这和文化有关吧?
袋鼠国就算了,借用王小波先生的一句话:瞎比划什么
大林8888 发表于 2015-1-21 14:41
“澳大利亚购买潜艇是因为中国”真是莫名其妙,兔子招你惹你了
我们必须建立强大的海军,防止中国切断中-澳贸易航线,你懂的!
大林8888 发表于 2015-1-21 14:41
“澳大利亚购买潜艇是因为中国”真是莫名其妙,兔子招你惹你了
知道什么叫怀璧之罪吗?强大的中国就是罪,强大的兔子就招惹袋鼠了。
很简单,美国主子也想分一杯羹呗,你懂的
superth 发表于 2015-1-21 17:00
澳大利亚现在也有政治野心,不背靠美国怎么提高世界政治地位。
世界政治地位可不是通过当别人的狗就能得到的,起码在中国的国际关系学领域是不这样认为的。
rendong 发表于 2015-1-21 17:06
为什么对付中国那是因为澳洲人智商问题 脑子问题你怎么找答案?
如果这数据属实的话的确很高,智商的平均水平才80分,的确,在中国,智商低于120都不敢说自己是什么平均智商。
没有困难创造困难也要买啊
世界政治地位可不是通过当别人的狗就能得到的,起码在中国的国际关系学领域是不这样认为的。
澳大利亚可不是狗那么简单,他是想当地区的二当家,美国还要仪仗他在南海。
澳大利亚人口2400万左右,中国年均毕业大学生600-700万,大家体会一下。
不是说大学生就多了不起,但毕竟还是接受了高等教育的。。。
其实,中国人才优势在这几年是越来越明显的。。。。比如军事科学发展,虽说现在还是在追赶阶段,但后劲确实越来越足,这是不可否认的;而互联网领域,如今除了美国,就是中国了。。。。。
onepiece 发表于 2015-1-21 14:10
这些都是一般性的问题,先前都有人提出过,其中日本第一次出口高端大型武器系统,技术转移专案管理的确堪虑 ...
如果要是从现货中找潜艇设计,现阶段除了日本的苍龙还没没合适的!
毛子的除外!
rendong 发表于 2015-1-21 17:06
为什么对付中国那是因为澳洲人智商问题 脑子问题你怎么找答案?
这个分析非常牛叉!!
rendong 发表于 2015-1-21 17:06
为什么对付中国那是因为澳洲人智商问题 脑子问题你怎么找答案?
澳洲指的是原住民


我觉得重点是这一句吧:
Japan’s 4,000-ton Soryu-class submarine “appears to have less payload, endurance and mobility” than Australia’s current Collins-class submarines

苍龙比柯林斯级大的多,但有效载荷和续航动力都比后者差{:soso_e101:}

我觉得重点是这一句吧:
Japan’s 4,000-ton Soryu-class submarine “appears to have less payload, endurance and mobility” than Australia’s current Collins-class submarines

苍龙比柯林斯级大的多,但有效载荷和续航动力都比后者差{:soso_e101:}
superth 发表于 2015-1-21 17:24
澳大利亚可不是狗那么简单,他是想当地区的二当家,美国还要仪仗他在南海。
就凭澳大利亚那点力量,不是瞧不起它,挑战中国它根本没资格
为什么对付中国那是因为澳洲人智商问题 脑子问题你怎么找答案?
海南人华丽丽的被美帝黑了,为啥海南岛那里颜色比较深呢
200亿美刀,给兔子差不多能买12艘093外送2个驱支了吧
200亿美刀,给兔子差不多能买12艘093外送2个驱支了吧
弗舰都够8到10艘,袋鼠比三哥的军购干净不到那里去。
lansexf 发表于 2015-1-21 20:12
就凭澳大利亚那点力量,不是瞧不起它,挑战中国它根本没资格
澳大利亚又不是要跟你翻脸,就是若即若离,又合又防,让你没脾气。


等他们签订合同,那边日本人开始制造潜艇了


中国再找个理由中断与澳洲贸易


澳洲袋鼠中断现金流,连带小日本一切坑
没错,袋鼠国的白皮是典型的保守势力派,反华思想根深蒂固,不会因为跟你做生意就不把你当敌人,这跟MD的 ...
是的,西方的意识形态很严重,不能以咱们善良的中国人的心思去理解西方人,他们不谈感情,翻脸不认人的。生意和自己的主人,哪个更重要,根本不用考虑。咱们不能傻兮兮的。
澳大利亚最近的军事动作有点想介入中日美的争端的迹象啊
wddlmc 发表于 2015-1-21 19:19
我觉得重点是这一句吧:
Japan’s 4,000-ton Soryu-class submarine “appears to have less payload, end ...

终于有人注意到了。

苍龙的浮航排水量是2900吨,柯林斯是3100吨(柯林斯是浮航排水量最大的常规型作战潜艇),但是苍龙的潜航排水量却高出柯林斯。显然苍龙级的结构设计的自由流水区域(那个非耐压的叶卷型上层)大于柯林斯级的上层,真正内部可用空间(耐压壳里面的容积)柯林斯应该比较大。

另外,柯林斯自动化程度较高,只需编制42人,苍龙却编制65人,所以柯林斯有相对更多的空间。
rendong 发表于 2015-1-21 17:06
为什么对付中国那是因为澳洲人智商问题 脑子问题你怎么找答案?
为啥是博茨瓦纳躺枪?博茨瓦纳招谁惹谁了?
lyz4373007 发表于 2015-1-21 17:46
如果要是从现货中找潜艇设计,现阶段除了日本的苍龙还没没合适的!
毛子的除外!
补充说明,澳洲为什么不自己发展柯林斯Mk.2,这种理论上最能合乎澳洲需求的设计。

除了澳洲自由党政府对ASC集团的信心尽丧(柯林斯之后又搞砸霍巴特级宙斯盾舰),另一个技术因素牵涉到原本设计柯林斯的瑞典Kockums厂与TKMS集团的纷争,TKMS购并Kockums是在柯林斯以后的事情,而TKMS基本上就是要把Kockums从常规潜艇市场上排挤掉,所以不准Kockums自行参与任何潜艇投标;瑞典政府方面严重不满,终于跟TKMS原厂闹翻,在2014年解除与TKMS集团关于本国A26潜艇的合同,以SAAB集团大力挖角TKMS旗下原属Kockums的资深人员,迫使TKMS将Kockums厂卖给SAAB。

在TKMS与Kockums纠纷的过程中,原本属于Kockums厂、关于柯林斯的知识产权归属就出了问题,导致无法提供这些设计,柯林斯Mk.2自然无法展开。因为这些问题,SAAB买回Kockums并抢著投标的时候还是用上自家新设计的A26.

原本TKMS的如意算盘是,逼走Kockums的任何相关方案,包括与澳洲和做的柯林斯2;法国因为政治因素本来就会被排除(澳洲要结合美制作战系统和武器,美国绝对不允许在法国设计的潜艇上这么做),西班牙S80A首艇超重行情大坏,澳洲差不多只能选择德国的216。然而人算不如天算的是2011年之后日本逐渐松绑军火出口.....

现在自由党政府一来要买现货,二来建立美日澳同盟,第三要重整ASC,把潜艇业务跟水面舰队拆掉,潜艇业务可能只保留在柏斯的修护中心。种种一切显然都不打算自己设计柯林斯Mk.2。选日本潜艇明显是「由上而下」的决定,政府拍板政策。这次甚至可能没有公开竞标,直接就是澳洲与日本的政府对政府谈判。

事实上,如果自由党政府的原则就是要以现货为基础,就算澳洲版苍龙还是会更改不少(用锂电池取代AIP之类),工作量也绝对比只有纸面设计的德国216跟瑞典柯林斯为佳。