刚看了晨枫的《谈谈直-20》，感觉这人很多地方不靠谱

价格差别可想而知
这话有错吗

小新人 发表于 2014-1-3 21:00
价格差别可想而知
这话有错吗
我生气，是因为这笔交易根本不存在！

这个报道还是有的，不过后来哪个都没买

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/article-view/feature/87615/france-loses-out-as-saudis-sign-$2.2-billion-deal-for-russian-helos-%3Ci%3E(updated)%3C%C2%A7i%3E.html


不过看那篇报道，不差钱的沙特人不认为NH-90贵，而是认为自己受到了怠慢

其中包括法国政府未能委任足够高的级别的官员处理与沙特的合同。


路透社则说，2008年俄罗斯同意出售沙特150辆T-90坦克以及100架米-17和米-35攻击直升机和额外的BMP-3步兵战车，不过虽然签字盖章，这笔交易从未完成。

guang000 发表于 2014-1-3 21:06
我生气，是因为这笔交易根本不存在！

这个报道还是有的，不过后来哪个都没买

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/article-view/feature/87615/france-loses-out-as-saudis-sign-$2.2-billion-deal-for-russian-helos-%3Ci%3E(updated)%3C%C2%A7i%3E.html


不过看那篇报道，不差钱的沙特人不认为NH-90贵，而是认为自己受到了怠慢

其中包括法国政府未能委任足够高的级别的官员处理与沙特的合同。


路透社则说，2008年俄罗斯同意出售沙特150辆T-90坦克以及100架米-17和米-35攻击直升机和额外的BMP-3步兵战车，不过虽然签字盖章，这笔交易从未完成。

河马系列价格便宜也是大家都知道的吧。
不过这笔交易是怎么回事？

沙特应该是不差钱的那种，而且也不可能买俄罗斯飞机，寿命奇短

只能说也有不靠谱的时候

这算啥，四楼打脸了？

人家也只是个军事爱好者 不要太强求了 另外那笔交易是不是有 得拿出来证据

人家也只是个军事爱好者 不要太强求了 另外那笔交易是不是有 得拿出来证据

有没有滴话，可以去联合国军控网上去查。这么大笔交易，会登记滴。

土鳖当年都买得起，当然确实便宜，除了这个例子的真实性外，没看出有什么特别不妥的地方

晨枫可是把球电黑粗翔啊。。。

In July 2006, the Saudi Government agreed to purchase 64 NH90s.[69] Then in October 2007 the government changed its plans, and agreed to buy 150 Russian-made Mi-35 and Mi-17 helicopters instead.[70]

France Loses Out as Saudis Sign $2.2 Billion Deal for Russian Helos (Updated)
       
         
(Source: defense-aerospace.com; published Oct. 30, 2007)

       
        (Edited Nov. 2 to add Eurocopter denial after paragraph 4)


       
         By Giovanni de Briganti

PARIS --- In an abrupt policy shift, Saudi Arabia has signed an agreement to buy over 150 Russian-made Mi-35 Hind and Mi-17 Hip helicopters worth over $2.2 billion, ending French hopes of sealing a long-delayed sale of 148 helicopters and raising doubts about future French arms sales to the Saudi kingdom.

Sources say the Memorandum of Understanding with Russia was signed in Ryad in mid-September by members of the private cabinet of Saudi King Abdallah bin Abd al-Aziz Al Saud, and follows extended visits to Russia by Saudi military delegations in February and March 2007 to appraise the capabilities of Russian helicopters and other weapons.

The sources also said that Saudi Arabia appears to have decided to buy T-90 main battle tanks and medium-range air-defense systems from Russia, replacing previous plans to buy French-made Leclerc tanks and Aster 30 SAMP/T air-defense systems. No agreement has yet been signed for these systems, however.

Eurocopter confirmed that Saudi Arabia has opted for Russian helicopters, but said the company’s future prospects in the country remained unclear.

[Eurocopter denied Nov. 2 that the company had confirmed the agreement, to which it is not a party and of which it has not been officially notified.]

Nexter, manufacturer of the Leclerc tank, and missile maker MBDA had no comment on the status of their dealings with Saudi Arabia.

While conceding that the Saudis had signed an agreement to buy Russian utility helicopters, a French official told defense-aerospace.com that the Mi-17 and Mi-35 met only part of the Saudi requirement. Noting that the two Saudi customers – the Armed Forces and the National Guard - would not necessarily buy the same equipment, he said that France was still in the running to sell several other helicopter types. These include naval, Combat Search And Rescue and training helicopters, he implied, for which Russian helicopters are unsuited.

Saudi Arabia’s decision to retain Russia as a major arms supplier is the result of two recent policy decisions made by King Abdallah bin Abd al-Aziz Al Saud. One was Abdallah’s decision to take direct control of major arms purchases, which were previously largely the domain of the defense and aviation ministry headed by Prince Sultan Bin Abdulaziz, the Saudi Crown Prince and deputy prime minister who is also Abdallah’s half-brother. Sultan is said to be out of favor.

Abdallah also is loosening arms ties with France because of its insistence on large, multiple-system packages, and its stubborn arm-twisting to include weapons that the Saudis do not want, like the Rafale combat aircraft, in these packages.

While the Saudis were willing as late as the fall of 2006 to sign two or three medium-sized helicopters deals, covering 42 Fennec light helicopters, 20 Cougar Combat Search and Rescue helicopters and 10 NFH-90 naval helicopters, sources say they indefinitely postponed these plans after French officials continued to insist that the package also include Rafales, several FREMM frigates and Gowind corvettes, and Leclerc tanks.

“The idea of selling comprehensive packages was pushed by the Elysée [the French President’s office-Ed.] as a final coup for [former President Jacques] Chirac,” one industry official told defense-aerospace.com. “Now, Chirac’s gone, we’ve signed nothing, and we’re shut out of the Saudi market for the foreseeable future. A real success for France,” the official said.

France has now conceded it will not sell Rafale to Saudi Arabia. “We haven’t discussed Rafale in Saudi Arabia. It’s not a current issue,” French Defense Minister Hervé Morin said Oct. 28 in Jeddah, after talks with Saudi leaders.

[France is hoping that Libya, which has contracted to upgrade its obsolete Dassault Mirage F-1 fighters, may also agree to buy the Rafale, and an agreement could be announced during Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi’s forthcoming visit to Paris, possibly in December.]

The Saudis are also said to be unhappy with what they perceive as French snubs. These include the French government’s failure to appoint an official of sufficiently high rank to head Sofresa, the arms export agency especially set up to handle contracts with Saudi Arabia. France’s use of local marketing networks that include individuals that are “persona non grata” at King Abdallah’s court is seen as another snub.

France’s insistence on stuffing as many weapons as possible into arms deals has also been cited as one of the reasons why Morocco finally opted to buy the U.S.-made F-16 fighter instead of the Rafale, which Paris wanted to supply in a single package together with helicopters and corvettes.

Another factor is that the election in May of Nicolas Sarkozy to succeed Chirac as French president has not gone down well with the Saudis, who take exception at his declarations that French diplomacy would in future distance itself from its traditional pro-Arab stance.

The loss of the Saudi contracts, whose total value was estimated at well over 7 billion euros, is a severe loss for French industry, which is encountering growing difficulties in exporting its weapons in the face of cut-throat competition from the United States and Russia.

Paris is now making a last-ditch attempt to salvage at least some Saudi deals, and President Sarkozy’s planned visit to Saudi Arabia, in January, might constitute such an opportunity. The sale of several Airbus tanker aircraft, and possibly of a reconnaissance satellite which Saudi Arabia would share with Qatar and the United Arab Emirates, are two possibilities.

The sale of Fennec light helicopters, which the Saudis need for pilot training, may finally go through simply because there is no direct Russian competitor, sources say, noting however that this sale is only worth about 300 million euros.

-ends-

最后成交完成没有还不知道

In July 2006, the Saudi Government agreed to purchase 64 NH90s.[69] Then in October 2007 the government changed its plans, and agreed to buy 150 Russian-made Mi-35 and Mi-17 helicopters instead.[70]

France Loses Out as Saudis Sign $2.2 Billion Deal for Russian Helos (Updated)
       
         
(Source: defense-aerospace.com; published Oct. 30, 2007)

       
        (Edited Nov. 2 to add Eurocopter denial after paragraph 4)


       
         By Giovanni de Briganti

PARIS --- In an abrupt policy shift, Saudi Arabia has signed an agreement to buy over 150 Russian-made Mi-35 Hind and Mi-17 Hip helicopters worth over $2.2 billion, ending French hopes of sealing a long-delayed sale of 148 helicopters and raising doubts about future French arms sales to the Saudi kingdom.

Sources say the Memorandum of Understanding with Russia was signed in Ryad in mid-September by members of the private cabinet of Saudi King Abdallah bin Abd al-Aziz Al Saud, and follows extended visits to Russia by Saudi military delegations in February and March 2007 to appraise the capabilities of Russian helicopters and other weapons.

The sources also said that Saudi Arabia appears to have decided to buy T-90 main battle tanks and medium-range air-defense systems from Russia, replacing previous plans to buy French-made Leclerc tanks and Aster 30 SAMP/T air-defense systems. No agreement has yet been signed for these systems, however.

Eurocopter confirmed that Saudi Arabia has opted for Russian helicopters, but said the company’s future prospects in the country remained unclear.

[Eurocopter denied Nov. 2 that the company had confirmed the agreement, to which it is not a party and of which it has not been officially notified.]

Nexter, manufacturer of the Leclerc tank, and missile maker MBDA had no comment on the status of their dealings with Saudi Arabia.

While conceding that the Saudis had signed an agreement to buy Russian utility helicopters, a French official told defense-aerospace.com that the Mi-17 and Mi-35 met only part of the Saudi requirement. Noting that the two Saudi customers – the Armed Forces and the National Guard - would not necessarily buy the same equipment, he said that France was still in the running to sell several other helicopter types. These include naval, Combat Search And Rescue and training helicopters, he implied, for which Russian helicopters are unsuited.

Saudi Arabia’s decision to retain Russia as a major arms supplier is the result of two recent policy decisions made by King Abdallah bin Abd al-Aziz Al Saud. One was Abdallah’s decision to take direct control of major arms purchases, which were previously largely the domain of the defense and aviation ministry headed by Prince Sultan Bin Abdulaziz, the Saudi Crown Prince and deputy prime minister who is also Abdallah’s half-brother. Sultan is said to be out of favor.

Abdallah also is loosening arms ties with France because of its insistence on large, multiple-system packages, and its stubborn arm-twisting to include weapons that the Saudis do not want, like the Rafale combat aircraft, in these packages.

While the Saudis were willing as late as the fall of 2006 to sign two or three medium-sized helicopters deals, covering 42 Fennec light helicopters, 20 Cougar Combat Search and Rescue helicopters and 10 NFH-90 naval helicopters, sources say they indefinitely postponed these plans after French officials continued to insist that the package also include Rafales, several FREMM frigates and Gowind corvettes, and Leclerc tanks.

“The idea of selling comprehensive packages was pushed by the Elysée [the French President’s office-Ed.] as a final coup for [former President Jacques] Chirac,” one industry official told defense-aerospace.com. “Now, Chirac’s gone, we’ve signed nothing, and we’re shut out of the Saudi market for the foreseeable future. A real success for France,” the official said.

France has now conceded it will not sell Rafale to Saudi Arabia. “We haven’t discussed Rafale in Saudi Arabia. It’s not a current issue,” French Defense Minister Hervé Morin said Oct. 28 in Jeddah, after talks with Saudi leaders.

[France is hoping that Libya, which has contracted to upgrade its obsolete Dassault Mirage F-1 fighters, may also agree to buy the Rafale, and an agreement could be announced during Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi’s forthcoming visit to Paris, possibly in December.]

The Saudis are also said to be unhappy with what they perceive as French snubs. These include the French government’s failure to appoint an official of sufficiently high rank to head Sofresa, the arms export agency especially set up to handle contracts with Saudi Arabia. France’s use of local marketing networks that include individuals that are “persona non grata” at King Abdallah’s court is seen as another snub.

France’s insistence on stuffing as many weapons as possible into arms deals has also been cited as one of the reasons why Morocco finally opted to buy the U.S.-made F-16 fighter instead of the Rafale, which Paris wanted to supply in a single package together with helicopters and corvettes.

Another factor is that the election in May of Nicolas Sarkozy to succeed Chirac as French president has not gone down well with the Saudis, who take exception at his declarations that French diplomacy would in future distance itself from its traditional pro-Arab stance.

The loss of the Saudi contracts, whose total value was estimated at well over 7 billion euros, is a severe loss for French industry, which is encountering growing difficulties in exporting its weapons in the face of cut-throat competition from the United States and Russia.

Paris is now making a last-ditch attempt to salvage at least some Saudi deals, and President Sarkozy’s planned visit to Saudi Arabia, in January, might constitute such an opportunity. The sale of several Airbus tanker aircraft, and possibly of a reconnaissance satellite which Saudi Arabia would share with Qatar and the United Arab Emirates, are two possibilities.

The sale of Fennec light helicopters, which the Saudis need for pilot training, may finally go through simply because there is no direct Russian competitor, sources say, noting however that this sale is only worth about 300 million euros.

-ends-

最后成交完成没有还不知道

晨枫靠谱过吗？
米-17虽然较便宜，但寿命不长啊，总体来说性价比不高。

晨枫大大可是首席球电黑

piranha 发表于 2014-1-3 23:01
土鳖当年都买得起，当然确实便宜，除了这个例子的真实性外，没看出有什么特别不妥的地方
举得例子就是假的，还想不妥到哪儿去？

风舞雪飘零 发表于 2014-1-3 23:27
In July 2006, the Saudi Government agreed to purchase 64 NH90s.[69] Then in October 2007 the governm ...
发这贴子以前就搜过这条新闻了
http://news.xinhuanet.com/mil/2007-11/13/content_7061226_1.htm
晨枫写这文之前，这新闻肯定也看过，揣着糊涂当明白而已
俄罗斯国防出口公司澄清了有关向沙特阿拉伯和阿联酋出口直升机的谣言。 　

    最近有媒体报道说沙特花费22亿美元向俄罗斯购买米-17和米-35直升机，在迪拜航展11月11日的新闻发布会上，俄罗斯国防出口公司官方明确否认了这条消息。

    “我不清楚这条消息的来源，但官方从未发表过这种言论。”一位俄国防出口公司的官员说，就有关阿联酋进口军用运输直升机的传言他也予以否认：“如果有这样的合同你将第一时间知道，所以答案是否定的。”

我就不知道

你真以为晨枫是个啥专业的军事观察员啊，他是个在加拿大的搞自动化的工程师，应该是六零后，女儿都读大学了，无非就是闲暇时间有兴趣写几篇，哪来的功夫仔细查证啊，哪来的那么多“揣着糊涂当明白”（写反了吧），我和他混一个论坛。像这条消息，肯定就是直接wiki出来的，因为维基上就是这么写的，我也是在维基上看的。

新华社这个真是澄清吗？怎么没头没尾的

guang000 发表于 2014-1-4 00:25
发这贴子以前就搜过这条新闻了
http://news.xinhuanet.com/mil/2007-11/13/content_7061226_1.htm
晨枫 ...

我就不知道

你真以为晨枫是个啥专业的军事观察员啊，他是个在加拿大的搞自动化的工程师，应该是六零后，女儿都读大学了，无非就是闲暇时间有兴趣写几篇，哪来的功夫仔细查证啊，哪来的那么多“揣着糊涂当明白”（写反了吧），我和他混一个论坛。像这条消息，肯定就是直接wiki出来的，因为维基上就是这么写的，我也是在维基上看的。

新华社这个真是澄清吗？怎么没头没尾的

这不是新华社的澄清，新华社翻译的而已。我就奇怪了，他河马直20写一大堆，这沙特换掉NH90买河马和米35的事情能看不出是假的？写这东西无非是先有立场再找论据而已，当然论据真假就不管了。把那条新闻写上，无非是想暗示河马有着比NH90更好的性价比“瞧瞧，油霸们都禁不住诱惑换掉高档货买了河马”。还有，举得例子是个新闻，不是技术问题，错误跟他是不是专业的观察员无关，跟平常作风有关

就算有错，楼主仅用一个错误就否定一个人，这种做法我认为更不可取。

中国现有国产直升机体系里，有2吨的Z11，4吨Z9，7吨Z15，10吨Z20及13吨Z8。我认为，解放军未来只会发展Z11的下一代和Z20，4吨和13吨这两个级别不再研制新机（只出Z9/Z8改进型），Z15专门民用，此外还需要研制1款20吨级的重型直升机（可能是倾转旋翼型）

总之，中国军队的运输直升机，有2吨，10吨，20吨3个级别。其中10吨级需求量最大，用途最广，上可登高原，下可随舰艇远航执行反潜搜救等任务。

Z20和黑鹰实在太象了。而美军对黑鹰的改进持续30年，可见该型号非常成熟实用。美军的下一代直升机，有两个发展方向，1是隐身化 2是高速化。从对未来的威胁环境预测上看，高速化更为迫切一些。黑鹰可继续改进推出高速型，颠覆传统思维的新概念构型直升机目前还看不到。

取消协议，转而购买150架米-17和米-35（米-24大改的出口型），计划总投资大体不变，价格差别可想而知"

红字部分是一年后沙特宣布的内容，人家没说最后买了没有，楼主洗洗睡吧

吹毛求屁, 晨大的文章还是靠谱的...

就事论事的好，不要随便判断人家的人品！

guang000 发表于 2014-1-3 21:06
我生气，是因为这笔交易根本不存在！
不管这笔交易是否最终落实，但用这笔交易证明价格差别足够了。所以，这点不能说明晨枫不靠谱。
楼主标题说“好多地方不靠谱”，却只选了一个不靠谱的例子，有标题党之嫌。

Mi17确实便宜, 兔子也曾想过引进生产, 不过一算自产的还不如买的便宜, 为啥不买...

举个例子而已！再说了，整个国内军事论坛有几个水平赶得上晨枫的？拿人家是什么国籍，什么行业来说事的有这必要吗？

举个例子而已！再说了，整个国内军事论坛有几个水平赶得上晨枫的？拿人家是什么国籍，什么行业来说事的有这 ...
再说了，人家也是搞自动化工程的理工科，还是以前那种正儿八经的。有啥不敢说的？楼主这就是借题发挥

举个例子而已！再说了，整个国内军事论坛有几个水平赶得上晨枫的？拿人家是什么国籍，什么行业来说事的有这 ...
没错！a主编不是也说超大的这些大牛也没有什么体制内的吗，跟什么行业有什么关系呢！

和老张比，谁靠谱，谁专业？

人无完人，偶尔玩脱了很正常。一个普通爱好者而已，不用捧得跟神似得，玩脱了又幸灾乐祸。

笑脸男人 发表于 2014-1-3 21:14
这个报道还是有的，不过后来哪个都没买

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/article-view/feature/87 ...
沙特买东西还问价格？

沙特人多的就是钱了，他们买东西应该不看重价格。

Burger 发表于 2014-1-4 02:23
"但一年后，沙特宣布取消协议，转而购买150架米-17和米-35（米-24大改的出口型），计划总投资大体不变，价 ...
因为沙特根本就没宣布取消什么协议，更没宣布购买河马这件事，沙特宣布什么的都是假的。并不是说这场交易没达成，而是整场交易没存在过

2233a2010 发表于 2014-1-4 07:39
再说了，人家也是搞自动化工程的理工科，还是以前那种正儿八经的。有啥不敢说的？楼主这就是借题发挥
我啥时候跟啥专业做啥的有关系？？？这事别人为开脱说的

沙特应该是不差钱的那种，而且也不可能买俄罗斯飞机，寿命奇短

guang000 发表于 2014-1-4 12:27
因为沙特根本就没宣布取消什么协议，更没宣布购买河马这件事，沙特宣布什么的都是假的。并不是说这场交易 ...
12楼的红字麻烦您再读一遍然后查查字典什么是“agreement"

成熟的直升机，便宜（可以做到但厂商也许不愿让利）上是胜过同级别新研制的；
美帝“黑鹰”和俄罗斯“屁股”（有人指出“河马”是误译）在这方面占尽先手优势；
都是好几千的生产量，前期投资早已尽数收回、使用&改装经验也丰富。

欧洲NH-90就遇到这种问题，性能相比最新型的“黑鹰”只能说互有优势（部分差别还来源于构型）；
价格上就......

成熟的直升机，便宜（可以做到但厂商也许不愿让利）上是胜过同级别新研制的；
美帝“黑鹰”和俄罗斯“屁股”（有人指出“河马”是误译）在这方面占尽先手优势；
都是好几千的生产量，前期投资早已尽数收回、使用&改装经验也丰富。

欧洲NH-90就遇到这种问题，性能相比最新型的“黑鹰”只能说互有优势（部分差别还来源于构型）；
价格上就......

总算看到鸡蛋里挑骨头了，建议楼主去西西河发帖质疑，那是晨枫老窝，你会有很多收获的。

zczfr 发表于 2014-1-4 10:37
和老张比，谁靠谱，谁专业？
还甭说，老张是专业多了。当年参与过航母论证，学习阿拉伯语，中东军事熟悉，后来国防大学教研，现在延长役期发挥战略忽悠余热，少将那是货真价实地，关键看你有木有本事挖出来忽悠后面的东西。

                   不懂