超级军网【国外论坛】谁是你心目中的常胜将军？ The History For ...
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正文翻译:Red Rebel
Wed 13 Sep 2006, 10:23
What generals/commanders/military leaders, could be called undefeated?
The person I was thinking of was German General Paul Erich von Lettow-Vorbeck, but I can't think of any other generals who can claim that. Please post anyone you can think of.
同志们，你们认为哪些将军/指挥官/军事领袖算得上常胜将军？
楼主我觉得德军将领保罗·埃里希·冯·莱托-维尔贝克算得上一号，但还有没有其他能堪此盛名的将军呢？希望楼下各位大侠不吝赐教。
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Potemkin
Wed 13 Sep 2006, 18:03
Alexander the Great.
亚历山大大帝。
Holt
Wed 13 Sep 2006, 22:01
Damn, you've taken the obvious one.
擦~一楼终结此贴。
Potemkin
Thu 14 Sep 2006, 04:26
There's also Julius Caesar, who I don't think lost any of his military battles (though you could argue that he lost a political 'battle' by being assassinated).
应该还有凯撒大帝吧，我不记得他输掉过哪场战役（当然，你有权利钻牛角尖说他输掉过一场“政治斗争”还为此搭上了性命）。
Geoff
Sun 17 Sep 2006, 17:49
Winston's ancestor, John Churchill, The first Duke of Marlborough. (17th - 18th centuries)
Supposedly the Greatest British General.
I don't think he was ever defeated. (?)
温斯顿·丘吉尔的祖辈，马尔堡公爵一世约翰·丘吉尔（17-18世纪）。
据说是当年大英帝国最伟大的将军。
我可不认为他曾吃过败仗。
Stjepan
Sun 17 Sep 2006, 19:12
I would have liked to say Skanderbeg, but he suffered a couple defeats even though his numerous victories were all against seemingly impossible odds.
我选斯坎德培，尽管他遭受过两次失败，但绝大多数战役中他都能够绝境逢生反败为胜。
wesleyadama
Mon 18 Sep 2006, 03:29
Lord Admiral Hortatio Nelson. I don't think he lost any of his naval battles, won the most decisive naval Battle, securing Britains safety from Napolean's navy. However, it did cost him his life, so does it count? also I know he was not a General.
海军上将纳尔逊。他可没输过一场海战，在对抗拿破仑海军保卫英国本土安全的过程中他指挥并取得了大多数决定性战役的胜利。然而，他也为此付出了自己的生命，不知道这算不算数？而且他好像也不是一般意义上的将军...
Geoff
Fri 22 Sep 2006, 02:30
As a military leader, it does count. But it's a good question: isn't death a defeat?
纳尔逊是一位军事领袖，这当然算数。不过你提出了一个很好的问题：阵亡于一场获胜的战役中算是个人的失败么？
Holt
Sat 23 Sep 2006, 02:30
Yi Sun-sin. A Korean naval leader noted for his victories against the Japanese navy during Hideyoshi's Invasions of Korea, during the Joseon Dynasty. He led the victories as the Lord High Admiral of the Korean Naval fleet during Japan's April 1592 invasion. Yi is also known for his innovation of the Turtle ships. He is reputed to be one of the few admirals to have been victorious in every naval battle (at least 23) that he commanded.
我选李舜臣。一位在丰臣秀吉侵朝战争中带领朝鲜水师痛击日本海军的李氏王朝水师提督。他麾下的朝鲜水师曾在1592年4月大败日本侵略军。李舜臣还发明了龟船。他也是为数不多的能够打赢所指挥的每一场海战（至少23场）的海军将领。
motojackal
Sun 01 Oct 2006, 06:35
Caesar was defeated in the civil war against Pompey in the first battle in Greece, he was forced to withdraw.
Wellington was undefeated
庞培曾在第一次希腊战役中击败凯撒并迫使其撤军。
威灵顿倒是没吃过败仗。
Potemkin
Sun 01 Oct 2006, 07:45
Good point. However, Pompey threw away his advantage by attacking Caesar's army again prematurely, even though it was trapped and haemorraging to death; he could simply have waited for Caesar's army to melt away.
We can say though that Caesar didn't lose any of his campaigns.
说得好。然而，庞培却放弃已占得的优势选择冒失地再次进攻凯撒，当时庞培已经把凯撒的军队团团围住而且切断了补给线；他完全可以慢慢把凯撒的军队活活饿死。
尽管我们可以说这一次失败没有对凯撒造成任何损失，但不可否认凯撒的确吃瘪过。
MB.
Fri 15 Dec 2006, 02:11
Did Fieldmarshal Montgomery ever lose a battle? I know some of his operations weren't exactly total successes, but was he ever defeated?
蒙哥马利元帅失败过吗？虽说他的一些战例算不上完胜，但好像他也没彻底输掉过一场战役吧？
von-Clausewitz
Fri 15 Dec 2006, 05:03
By Eisenhower, deffinately
But it depends what you mean by defeat. Both Tobruk and El-Alemane were constantly been taken and lost again. So, he was defeated tactically. The same as Rommel.
But as with Rommel, he got back into the ring, and ended up at Normandy for a re-match.
In that case could it be said that Guderin never lost a battle?
He had the command taken away from him before his army was thrown back from Kursk/Kiev decissively. So the battles he took part in, to the end, he won every one.
妥妥的艾森豪威尔。
但这也的看你如何定义失败。无论在托布鲁克和阿拉曼，艾森豪威尔和隆美尔都曾陷入过拉锯战。所以在战术上他的确曾被击败过，隆美尔也一样。
但相较于隆美尔，艾森豪威尔笑到了最后，凭借着诺曼底登陆他取得了大战的最终胜利。
既然这样我们是否可以认为古德里安百战百胜呢？
无论是在库尔斯克还是基辅，古德里安都参与了战役的前期指挥并取得阶段性胜利，随后他的指挥权被其他人替换，而战役则在别人手里输掉。所以就某种意义而言，古德里安从没在自己参与的过程中输掉过任何一场战役。
ballybofy
Sun 01 Apr 2007, 20:13
Wellington ???
威灵顿？？？
Ezekiel39
Fri 06 Apr 2007, 23:27
Mao Tsetung.
毛。
Potemkin
Sat 07 Apr 2007, 05:57
Gesundheit!
楼上好同志！干了这杯酒！
Smilin' dave
Sun 08 Apr 2007, 23:37
Weren't Mao's forces chewed up pretty badly before and during the Long March?
在长征前的第五次反围剿以及长征途中毛的军队不是损失相当惨重么？
Gletkin
Tue 29 Apr 2008, 01:19
Georgi Konstantinovich Zhukov.
I can't think of any battle that he had lost.
First, he smashed the Japanese at the Mongolian border, forcing them to sue for peace and securing the USSR's Eastern Front.
Then he was summoned to Moscow in 1941 to break the Nazi siege of that city.
From then on, it was a relentless rollback of the Nazi invasion....all the way to Berlin.
我选朱可夫元帅。
在我印象中他从未战败过。
首先，他在苏蒙边境蹂躏过日本鬼子，迫使日本与苏联签订互不侵犯条约，保障了东段边界的稳定。
然后他又在1941年坐镇莫斯科彻底糟蹋了纳粹的疯狂进攻。
而后，他又一举攻克柏林，回敬了纳粹一壶。
Lensky1917
Thu 01 May 2008, 14:11
Although he was not a General, and he was defeated, I can't help but feel that Admiral Yamamoto deserves some respect. I also read about Zhukov, and he seemed quite capable as well.
尽管他不是一名（陆军）将军，也曾被击败过，我还是由衷佩服山本五十六海军上将。我也读过一些有关朱可夫元帅的资料，他的作战指挥水平也很逆天啊。
Corporatios
Sat 29 Nov 2008, 07:31
I have a list of generals who might have been undefeated,although I can't find enough sources to be sure.These are:
Phillip-(father of Alexander the Great)
Justinianos and Herakleios-(Byzantine emperors during the big expansion of Byzantine borders)
Frederick Barbarosa-(Holy Roman Emperor who died in an accident,during a victorious till that moment Crusade)
尽管我手头的参考资料可能不算完整，我还是能举出一打没吃过败仗的将军，他们是：
马其顿国王腓力-（亚历山大大帝他爹）
查士丁尼和希拉克略-（拜占庭帝国扩张时期的两位皇帝）
弗雷德里克·巴巴罗萨-（神圣罗马帝国皇帝，曾参加十字军东征却在战役获胜前意外驾崩-酒驾溺水而亡，据称水深只有半米）
catalinmarian
Sat 27 Jun 2009, 12:36
Alexander Suvorov is one of the few undefeated generals of all time
亚历山大·苏沃洛夫是有史以来仅有的几位不败将军之一。
Hamza S
Sun 28 Feb 2010, 15:19
Its strange how no one mentioned Khaled ibn al Waleed... he never lost a battle, and he did manage to defeat both the Byzantine and Persian empires, with a much smaller and untrained force. I doubt that Islam would have been able to reach anyone beyond the arabian desert if khaled didn't exist..
咋没有人提哈立德·伊本·阿尔瓦利德呢...他从未尝败绩，以弱克强击败过拜占庭与波斯两大帝国。若不是哈立德战神降临恐怕伊斯兰教连阿拉伯沙漠都走不出呢。
Quantum
Fri 19 Mar 2010, 12:16
Holt wrote:
Yi Sun-sin. A Korean naval leader noted for his victories against the Japanese navy during Hideyoshi's Invasions of Korea, during the Joseon Dynasty. He led the victories as the Lord High Admiral of the Korean Naval fleet during Japan's April 1592 invasion. Yi is also known for his innovation of the Turtle ships. He is reputed to be one of the few admirals to have been victorious in every naval battle (at least 23) that he commanded.
I was going to say this because in the Battle of Myeongnyang, on October 26, 1597, Yi destroyed 31 Japanese ships, disabled 92 ships disabled and inflicted 12,000 casualties whilst losing no ships and only suffered 5 casualties (2 KIA, 3 WIA). The Battle of Hansan Island on August 14, 1592 was also remarkable because he destroyed 47 ships, captured 12 ships and caused 9,000 casualties on the Japanese naval fleet whilst losing no ships and only suffered 133 casualties (19 KIA, 114 WIA). Achieving such a disparity in damage and casualties ranks the Korean the highest among military leaders in history.
引用Holt发言：
“我选李舜臣。一位在丰臣秀吉侵朝战争中带领朝鲜水师痛击日本海军的李氏王朝水师提督。他麾下的朝鲜水师曾在1592年4月大败日本侵略军。李舜臣还发明了龟船。他也是为数不多的能够打赢所指挥的每一场海战（至少23场）的海军将领。”
我想谈谈1597年10月26日爆发的露梁海战，是役李舜臣麾下的朝鲜水师击沉了日舰31艘，重创92艘，日军伤亡12000人而朝军仅伤亡5人（2死3伤）。1592年8月14日的闲山岛海战同样令人称道，朝鲜水师共击沉日舰47艘，俘获12艘，日本海军伤亡达9000人而朝军战船无一损失，仅伤亡133人（19死114伤）。如此卓著的战绩，如此悬殊的伤亡交换比足以使朝鲜将领傲立于世界军史之中！
BasiC
Fri 20 Aug 2010, 09:42
Suvorov fought in over 60 battles and was never defeated both as generalissimo and in lower ranks.
He was in the military his whole life and had one of his greatest military achievements right before his death at the age of 70.
Another one is obviously Alexander the great about whom there is no need to elaborate.
The third one i am aware of is Genghis Khan who was also undefeated and as a result of his efforts and military brilliance the mongol empire was the largest contiguous empire ad the second largest empire in human history after the british one and only by a small fraction.
无论是作为总司令还是下级军官，苏沃洛夫在所经历的60余战从未尝败绩。
戎马一生的他最大的军事成就之一便是在70高龄时寿终正寝。
而另一位常胜将军自然是亚历山大大帝。
还有一位我认为应该是成吉思汗，他的骄人战绩和杰出的军事才华使得蒙古帝国成为人类历史上疆域仅次于大英帝国的第二大帝国。
Cook
Thu 30 Sep 2010, 22:22
Lord Wellington was never defeated.
In World War One there was General Sir John Monash.
Montgomery wrote: I would name Sir John Monash as the best general on the western front in Europe.
http://www.awm.gov.au/exhibitions/1918/people/genmonash.asp
威灵顿勋爵是不可战胜的。
还有一战著名将领约翰·莫纳什爵士。
蒙哥马利曾写道：我认为约翰·莫纳什爵士是欧战西线最杰出的将领，没有之一。
http://www.awm.gov.au/exhibitions/1918/people/genmonash.asp
bartieboy
Sat 04 Dec 2010, 06:11
correct me if im wrong but isnt Robert Clive, 1st Baron Clive undefeated?
In his actions in india against the indians, french and my beloved dutch countrymen i cant find any battles he didnt win.
besides, its not to hard to find a commander who has never lost. just find a commander who commanded only one battle, won and got commisioned in staff duty's. I bet that isnt to hard to find right?
besides i believe Herbert Kitchener, 1st Earl Kitchener
was ever defeated?
我依稀记得罗伯特·克莱武，也就是克莱武男爵一世好像没吃过败仗？
在印度，无论是与印度土著，法国人还是我亲爱的荷兰同胞的战役中，克莱武好像是战无不胜吧~
而且，作为一位指挥官，没吃过败仗几乎不可能吧？如果一位指挥官只指挥过一次战役而且打赢了，这算不算常胜将军呢？如果算的话，那这样的例子就多着去了。
Mubashar Ahmad
Wed 09 Feb 2011, 02:27
Khalid ibn al-Walid, a muslim general, is one of three military generals in history to remain undefeated in battle.
MSL将领哈立德·伊本·阿尔瓦利德是世界战争史中三位百胜将军之一。
bartieboy
Wed 09 Feb 2011, 14:46
maybe you didnt read it to well...
there are more then 3 generals who never lost a war,
Alexander the Great
Genghis khan
Alexander Suvorov (my favorite of the 3, besides does anyone know a book about him?)
oh and Bartolomeo d'Alviano also came quite close to being undefeated...
楼上的孩纸，书读得还不到位啊...
历史上没吃过败仗的将军可不止三位，
亚历山大大帝
成吉思汗
亚历山大·苏沃洛夫（3人中我最喜欢的一位，此外，有人知道曾出版过一部讲述他人生经历的书么？）
啊，还有巴尔托洛梅奥·达·阿尔维亚诺，他也几乎没被打败过...
TAGardner
Thu 17 Feb 2011, 19:07
Edward III. Arguably the most successful general / commander in European history. He not only consistantly won every battle he fought but generally won heavily outnumbered. Dupplin Moor, Crecy, to name two. At the first he slaughtered a Scottish army by all estimates over ten (10) times the size of his own. At Crecy he defeated a larger French knight army more thoroughly than would later occur at Agincourt. He also won the naval battle of Sluys in one of the most impressive defeats of a navy in European history. His defeat of the French navy there far exceeds in ships sunk and captured along with men killed the defeat of the Spanish Armada.
Yet, he remains largely forgotten as a military commander.
别忘了爱德华三世。他可是欧洲历史上最杰出的将领/指挥官。他不仅打赢了其指挥的每次战役而且常常以少胜多。我只举两个例子：达普林沼泽之战与克雷西战役。前者中英格兰军屠杀了十倍于己的苏格兰军。而克雷西战役中其麾下的英军比在稍后爆发的阿金库尔战役中更为彻底地摧毁了法兰西重骑兵军团。爱德华三世还赢得了斯鲁伊斯海战这一欧洲历史上最为惨烈的海战的胜利。是役中他击沉了大量的法军战船，也俘获无数法军士兵与战船，其数目远超后来被歼灭的西班牙无敌舰队。
然而，人们一般不把他看做军事指挥官，因为他的另一个身份是国王。
Hachiman Taro
Tue 31 May 2011, 14:13
Admiral Yi was not the innovator of the Turtle Ships. His name just happens to be the most closely associated with it.
Also, he was not undefeated. I don't have my books with me so I can't give you an exact battle, but he did have a blemish on his record.
I'm assuming when you say Tokugawa, you are referring to Tokugawa Ieyasu?
He most certainly did have a blemish on his record. He lost to the Takeda at the Battle of Mikatagahara in 1573.
龟船可不是李舜臣发明的。他只不过最大程度地发挥了其作战功能。
而且，他也不是没吃过败仗。虽然我说不出到底他输掉了哪次战役，但他的军旅生涯中的确是有污点的。
当我一提及德川，你是不是立刻就想到了德川家康啊？
他的征战记录中同样有污点。1573年的三方原合战中他输给了武田玄信。
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正文翻译:Red Rebel
Wed 13 Sep 2006, 10:23
What generals/commanders/military leaders, could be called undefeated?
The person I was thinking of was German General Paul Erich von Lettow-Vorbeck, but I can't think of any other generals who can claim that. Please post anyone you can think of.
同志们，你们认为哪些将军/指挥官/军事领袖算得上常胜将军？
楼主我觉得德军将领保罗·埃里希·冯·莱托-维尔贝克算得上一号，但还有没有其他能堪此盛名的将军呢？希望楼下各位大侠不吝赐教。
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Potemkin
Wed 13 Sep 2006, 18:03
Alexander the Great.
亚历山大大帝。
Holt
Wed 13 Sep 2006, 22:01
Damn, you've taken the obvious one.
擦~一楼终结此贴。
Potemkin
Thu 14 Sep 2006, 04:26
There's also Julius Caesar, who I don't think lost any of his military battles (though you could argue that he lost a political 'battle' by being assassinated).
应该还有凯撒大帝吧，我不记得他输掉过哪场战役（当然，你有权利钻牛角尖说他输掉过一场“政治斗争”还为此搭上了性命）。
Geoff
Sun 17 Sep 2006, 17:49
Winston's ancestor, John Churchill, The first Duke of Marlborough. (17th - 18th centuries)
Supposedly the Greatest British General.
I don't think he was ever defeated. (?)
温斯顿·丘吉尔的祖辈，马尔堡公爵一世约翰·丘吉尔（17-18世纪）。
据说是当年大英帝国最伟大的将军。
我可不认为他曾吃过败仗。
Stjepan
Sun 17 Sep 2006, 19:12
I would have liked to say Skanderbeg, but he suffered a couple defeats even though his numerous victories were all against seemingly impossible odds.
我选斯坎德培，尽管他遭受过两次失败，但绝大多数战役中他都能够绝境逢生反败为胜。
wesleyadama
Mon 18 Sep 2006, 03:29
Lord Admiral Hortatio Nelson. I don't think he lost any of his naval battles, won the most decisive naval Battle, securing Britains safety from Napolean's navy. However, it did cost him his life, so does it count? also I know he was not a General.
海军上将纳尔逊。他可没输过一场海战，在对抗拿破仑海军保卫英国本土安全的过程中他指挥并取得了大多数决定性战役的胜利。然而，他也为此付出了自己的生命，不知道这算不算数？而且他好像也不是一般意义上的将军...
Geoff
Fri 22 Sep 2006, 02:30
As a military leader, it does count. But it's a good question: isn't death a defeat?
纳尔逊是一位军事领袖，这当然算数。不过你提出了一个很好的问题：阵亡于一场获胜的战役中算是个人的失败么？
Holt
Sat 23 Sep 2006, 02:30
Yi Sun-sin. A Korean naval leader noted for his victories against the Japanese navy during Hideyoshi's Invasions of Korea, during the Joseon Dynasty. He led the victories as the Lord High Admiral of the Korean Naval fleet during Japan's April 1592 invasion. Yi is also known for his innovation of the Turtle ships. He is reputed to be one of the few admirals to have been victorious in every naval battle (at least 23) that he commanded.
我选李舜臣。一位在丰臣秀吉侵朝战争中带领朝鲜水师痛击日本海军的李氏王朝水师提督。他麾下的朝鲜水师曾在1592年4月大败日本侵略军。李舜臣还发明了龟船。他也是为数不多的能够打赢所指挥的每一场海战（至少23场）的海军将领。
motojackal
Sun 01 Oct 2006, 06:35
Caesar was defeated in the civil war against Pompey in the first battle in Greece, he was forced to withdraw.
Wellington was undefeated
庞培曾在第一次希腊战役中击败凯撒并迫使其撤军。
威灵顿倒是没吃过败仗。
Potemkin
Sun 01 Oct 2006, 07:45
Good point. However, Pompey threw away his advantage by attacking Caesar's army again prematurely, even though it was trapped and haemorraging to death; he could simply have waited for Caesar's army to melt away.
We can say though that Caesar didn't lose any of his campaigns.
说得好。然而，庞培却放弃已占得的优势选择冒失地再次进攻凯撒，当时庞培已经把凯撒的军队团团围住而且切断了补给线；他完全可以慢慢把凯撒的军队活活饿死。
尽管我们可以说这一次失败没有对凯撒造成任何损失，但不可否认凯撒的确吃瘪过。
MB.
Fri 15 Dec 2006, 02:11
Did Fieldmarshal Montgomery ever lose a battle? I know some of his operations weren't exactly total successes, but was he ever defeated?
蒙哥马利元帅失败过吗？虽说他的一些战例算不上完胜，但好像他也没彻底输掉过一场战役吧？
von-Clausewitz
Fri 15 Dec 2006, 05:03
By Eisenhower, deffinately
But it depends what you mean by defeat. Both Tobruk and El-Alemane were constantly been taken and lost again. So, he was defeated tactically. The same as Rommel.
But as with Rommel, he got back into the ring, and ended up at Normandy for a re-match.
In that case could it be said that Guderin never lost a battle?
He had the command taken away from him before his army was thrown back from Kursk/Kiev decissively. So the battles he took part in, to the end, he won every one.
妥妥的艾森豪威尔。
但这也的看你如何定义失败。无论在托布鲁克和阿拉曼，艾森豪威尔和隆美尔都曾陷入过拉锯战。所以在战术上他的确曾被击败过，隆美尔也一样。
但相较于隆美尔，艾森豪威尔笑到了最后，凭借着诺曼底登陆他取得了大战的最终胜利。
既然这样我们是否可以认为古德里安百战百胜呢？
无论是在库尔斯克还是基辅，古德里安都参与了战役的前期指挥并取得阶段性胜利，随后他的指挥权被其他人替换，而战役则在别人手里输掉。所以就某种意义而言，古德里安从没在自己参与的过程中输掉过任何一场战役。
ballybofy
Sun 01 Apr 2007, 20:13
Wellington ???
威灵顿？？？
Ezekiel39
Fri 06 Apr 2007, 23:27
Mao Tsetung.
毛。
Potemkin
Sat 07 Apr 2007, 05:57
Gesundheit!
楼上好同志！干了这杯酒！
Smilin' dave
Sun 08 Apr 2007, 23:37
Weren't Mao's forces chewed up pretty badly before and during the Long March?
在长征前的第五次反围剿以及长征途中毛的军队不是损失相当惨重么？
Gletkin
Tue 29 Apr 2008, 01:19
Georgi Konstantinovich Zhukov.
I can't think of any battle that he had lost.
First, he smashed the Japanese at the Mongolian border, forcing them to sue for peace and securing the USSR's Eastern Front.
Then he was summoned to Moscow in 1941 to break the Nazi siege of that city.
From then on, it was a relentless rollback of the Nazi invasion....all the way to Berlin.
我选朱可夫元帅。
在我印象中他从未战败过。
首先，他在苏蒙边境蹂躏过日本鬼子，迫使日本与苏联签订互不侵犯条约，保障了东段边界的稳定。
然后他又在1941年坐镇莫斯科彻底糟蹋了纳粹的疯狂进攻。
而后，他又一举攻克柏林，回敬了纳粹一壶。
Lensky1917
Thu 01 May 2008, 14:11
Although he was not a General, and he was defeated, I can't help but feel that Admiral Yamamoto deserves some respect. I also read about Zhukov, and he seemed quite capable as well.
尽管他不是一名（陆军）将军，也曾被击败过，我还是由衷佩服山本五十六海军上将。我也读过一些有关朱可夫元帅的资料，他的作战指挥水平也很逆天啊。
Corporatios
Sat 29 Nov 2008, 07:31
I have a list of generals who might have been undefeated,although I can't find enough sources to be sure.These are:
Phillip-(father of Alexander the Great)
Justinianos and Herakleios-(Byzantine emperors during the big expansion of Byzantine borders)
Frederick Barbarosa-(Holy Roman Emperor who died in an accident,during a victorious till that moment Crusade)
尽管我手头的参考资料可能不算完整，我还是能举出一打没吃过败仗的将军，他们是：
马其顿国王腓力-（亚历山大大帝他爹）
查士丁尼和希拉克略-（拜占庭帝国扩张时期的两位皇帝）
弗雷德里克·巴巴罗萨-（神圣罗马帝国皇帝，曾参加十字军东征却在战役获胜前意外驾崩-酒驾溺水而亡，据称水深只有半米）
catalinmarian
Sat 27 Jun 2009, 12:36
Alexander Suvorov is one of the few undefeated generals of all time
亚历山大·苏沃洛夫是有史以来仅有的几位不败将军之一。
Hamza S
Sun 28 Feb 2010, 15:19
Its strange how no one mentioned Khaled ibn al Waleed... he never lost a battle, and he did manage to defeat both the Byzantine and Persian empires, with a much smaller and untrained force. I doubt that Islam would have been able to reach anyone beyond the arabian desert if khaled didn't exist..
咋没有人提哈立德·伊本·阿尔瓦利德呢...他从未尝败绩，以弱克强击败过拜占庭与波斯两大帝国。若不是哈立德战神降临恐怕伊斯兰教连阿拉伯沙漠都走不出呢。
Quantum
Fri 19 Mar 2010, 12:16
Holt wrote:
Yi Sun-sin. A Korean naval leader noted for his victories against the Japanese navy during Hideyoshi's Invasions of Korea, during the Joseon Dynasty. He led the victories as the Lord High Admiral of the Korean Naval fleet during Japan's April 1592 invasion. Yi is also known for his innovation of the Turtle ships. He is reputed to be one of the few admirals to have been victorious in every naval battle (at least 23) that he commanded.
I was going to say this because in the Battle of Myeongnyang, on October 26, 1597, Yi destroyed 31 Japanese ships, disabled 92 ships disabled and inflicted 12,000 casualties whilst losing no ships and only suffered 5 casualties (2 KIA, 3 WIA). The Battle of Hansan Island on August 14, 1592 was also remarkable because he destroyed 47 ships, captured 12 ships and caused 9,000 casualties on the Japanese naval fleet whilst losing no ships and only suffered 133 casualties (19 KIA, 114 WIA). Achieving such a disparity in damage and casualties ranks the Korean the highest among military leaders in history.
引用Holt发言：
“我选李舜臣。一位在丰臣秀吉侵朝战争中带领朝鲜水师痛击日本海军的李氏王朝水师提督。他麾下的朝鲜水师曾在1592年4月大败日本侵略军。李舜臣还发明了龟船。他也是为数不多的能够打赢所指挥的每一场海战（至少23场）的海军将领。”
我想谈谈1597年10月26日爆发的露梁海战，是役李舜臣麾下的朝鲜水师击沉了日舰31艘，重创92艘，日军伤亡12000人而朝军仅伤亡5人（2死3伤）。1592年8月14日的闲山岛海战同样令人称道，朝鲜水师共击沉日舰47艘，俘获12艘，日本海军伤亡达9000人而朝军战船无一损失，仅伤亡133人（19死114伤）。如此卓著的战绩，如此悬殊的伤亡交换比足以使朝鲜将领傲立于世界军史之中！
BasiC
Fri 20 Aug 2010, 09:42
Suvorov fought in over 60 battles and was never defeated both as generalissimo and in lower ranks.
He was in the military his whole life and had one of his greatest military achievements right before his death at the age of 70.
Another one is obviously Alexander the great about whom there is no need to elaborate.
The third one i am aware of is Genghis Khan who was also undefeated and as a result of his efforts and military brilliance the mongol empire was the largest contiguous empire ad the second largest empire in human history after the british one and only by a small fraction.
无论是作为总司令还是下级军官，苏沃洛夫在所经历的60余战从未尝败绩。
戎马一生的他最大的军事成就之一便是在70高龄时寿终正寝。
而另一位常胜将军自然是亚历山大大帝。
还有一位我认为应该是成吉思汗，他的骄人战绩和杰出的军事才华使得蒙古帝国成为人类历史上疆域仅次于大英帝国的第二大帝国。
Cook
Thu 30 Sep 2010, 22:22
Lord Wellington was never defeated.
In World War One there was General Sir John Monash.
Montgomery wrote: I would name Sir John Monash as the best general on the western front in Europe.
http://www.awm.gov.au/exhibitions/1918/people/genmonash.asp
威灵顿勋爵是不可战胜的。
还有一战著名将领约翰·莫纳什爵士。
蒙哥马利曾写道：我认为约翰·莫纳什爵士是欧战西线最杰出的将领，没有之一。
http://www.awm.gov.au/exhibitions/1918/people/genmonash.asp
bartieboy
Sat 04 Dec 2010, 06:11
correct me if im wrong but isnt Robert Clive, 1st Baron Clive undefeated?
In his actions in india against the indians, french and my beloved dutch countrymen i cant find any battles he didnt win.
besides, its not to hard to find a commander who has never lost. just find a commander who commanded only one battle, won and got commisioned in staff duty's. I bet that isnt to hard to find right?
besides i believe Herbert Kitchener, 1st Earl Kitchener
was ever defeated?
我依稀记得罗伯特·克莱武，也就是克莱武男爵一世好像没吃过败仗？
在印度，无论是与印度土著，法国人还是我亲爱的荷兰同胞的战役中，克莱武好像是战无不胜吧~
而且，作为一位指挥官，没吃过败仗几乎不可能吧？如果一位指挥官只指挥过一次战役而且打赢了，这算不算常胜将军呢？如果算的话，那这样的例子就多着去了。
Mubashar Ahmad
Wed 09 Feb 2011, 02:27
Khalid ibn al-Walid, a muslim general, is one of three military generals in history to remain undefeated in battle.
MSL将领哈立德·伊本·阿尔瓦利德是世界战争史中三位百胜将军之一。
bartieboy
Wed 09 Feb 2011, 14:46
maybe you didnt read it to well...
there are more then 3 generals who never lost a war,
Alexander the Great
Genghis khan
Alexander Suvorov (my favorite of the 3, besides does anyone know a book about him?)
oh and Bartolomeo d'Alviano also came quite close to being undefeated...
楼上的孩纸，书读得还不到位啊...
历史上没吃过败仗的将军可不止三位，
亚历山大大帝
成吉思汗
亚历山大·苏沃洛夫（3人中我最喜欢的一位，此外，有人知道曾出版过一部讲述他人生经历的书么？）
啊，还有巴尔托洛梅奥·达·阿尔维亚诺，他也几乎没被打败过...
TAGardner
Thu 17 Feb 2011, 19:07
Edward III. Arguably the most successful general / commander in European history. He not only consistantly won every battle he fought but generally won heavily outnumbered. Dupplin Moor, Crecy, to name two. At the first he slaughtered a Scottish army by all estimates over ten (10) times the size of his own. At Crecy he defeated a larger French knight army more thoroughly than would later occur at Agincourt. He also won the naval battle of Sluys in one of the most impressive defeats of a navy in European history. His defeat of the French navy there far exceeds in ships sunk and captured along with men killed the defeat of the Spanish Armada.
Yet, he remains largely forgotten as a military commander.
别忘了爱德华三世。他可是欧洲历史上最杰出的将领/指挥官。他不仅打赢了其指挥的每次战役而且常常以少胜多。我只举两个例子：达普林沼泽之战与克雷西战役。前者中英格兰军屠杀了十倍于己的苏格兰军。而克雷西战役中其麾下的英军比在稍后爆发的阿金库尔战役中更为彻底地摧毁了法兰西重骑兵军团。爱德华三世还赢得了斯鲁伊斯海战这一欧洲历史上最为惨烈的海战的胜利。是役中他击沉了大量的法军战船，也俘获无数法军士兵与战船，其数目远超后来被歼灭的西班牙无敌舰队。
然而，人们一般不把他看做军事指挥官，因为他的另一个身份是国王。
Hachiman Taro
Tue 31 May 2011, 14:13
Admiral Yi was not the innovator of the Turtle Ships. His name just happens to be the most closely associated with it.
Also, he was not undefeated. I don't have my books with me so I can't give you an exact battle, but he did have a blemish on his record.
I'm assuming when you say Tokugawa, you are referring to Tokugawa Ieyasu?
He most certainly did have a blemish on his record. He lost to the Takeda at the Battle of Mikatagahara in 1573.
龟船可不是李舜臣发明的。他只不过最大程度地发挥了其作战功能。
而且，他也不是没吃过败仗。虽然我说不出到底他输掉了哪次战役，但他的军旅生涯中的确是有污点的。
当我一提及德川，你是不是立刻就想到了德川家康啊？
他的征战记录中同样有污点。1573年的三方原合战中他输给了武田玄信。
正文翻译:Red Rebel
Wed 13 Sep 2006, 10:23
What generals/commanders/military leaders, could be called undefeated?
The person I was thinking of was German General Paul Erich von Lettow-Vorbeck, but I can't think of any other generals who can claim that. Please post anyone you can think of.
同志们，你们认为哪些将军/指挥官/军事领袖算得上常胜将军？
楼主我觉得德军将领保罗·埃里希·冯·莱托-维尔贝克算得上一号，但还有没有其他能堪此盛名的将军呢？希望楼下各位大侠不吝赐教。
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Potemkin
Wed 13 Sep 2006, 18:03
Alexander the Great.
亚历山大大帝。
Holt
Wed 13 Sep 2006, 22:01
Damn, you've taken the obvious one.
擦~一楼终结此贴。
Potemkin
Thu 14 Sep 2006, 04:26
There's also Julius Caesar, who I don't think lost any of his military battles (though you could argue that he lost a political 'battle' by being assassinated).
应该还有凯撒大帝吧，我不记得他输掉过哪场战役（当然，你有权利钻牛角尖说他输掉过一场“政治斗争”还为此搭上了性命）。
Geoff
Sun 17 Sep 2006, 17:49
Winston's ancestor, John Churchill, The first Duke of Marlborough. (17th - 18th centuries)
Supposedly the Greatest British General.
I don't think he was ever defeated. (?)
温斯顿·丘吉尔的祖辈，马尔堡公爵一世约翰·丘吉尔（17-18世纪）。
据说是当年大英帝国最伟大的将军。
我可不认为他曾吃过败仗。
Stjepan
Sun 17 Sep 2006, 19:12
I would have liked to say Skanderbeg, but he suffered a couple defeats even though his numerous victories were all against seemingly impossible odds.
我选斯坎德培，尽管他遭受过两次失败，但绝大多数战役中他都能够绝境逢生反败为胜。
wesleyadama
Mon 18 Sep 2006, 03:29
Lord Admiral Hortatio Nelson. I don't think he lost any of his naval battles, won the most decisive naval Battle, securing Britains safety from Napolean's navy. However, it did cost him his life, so does it count? also I know he was not a General.
海军上将纳尔逊。他可没输过一场海战，在对抗拿破仑海军保卫英国本土安全的过程中他指挥并取得了大多数决定性战役的胜利。然而，他也为此付出了自己的生命，不知道这算不算数？而且他好像也不是一般意义上的将军...
Geoff
Fri 22 Sep 2006, 02:30
As a military leader, it does count. But it's a good question: isn't death a defeat?
纳尔逊是一位军事领袖，这当然算数。不过你提出了一个很好的问题：阵亡于一场获胜的战役中算是个人的失败么？
Holt
Sat 23 Sep 2006, 02:30
Yi Sun-sin. A Korean naval leader noted for his victories against the Japanese navy during Hideyoshi's Invasions of Korea, during the Joseon Dynasty. He led the victories as the Lord High Admiral of the Korean Naval fleet during Japan's April 1592 invasion. Yi is also known for his innovation of the Turtle ships. He is reputed to be one of the few admirals to have been victorious in every naval battle (at least 23) that he commanded.
我选李舜臣。一位在丰臣秀吉侵朝战争中带领朝鲜水师痛击日本海军的李氏王朝水师提督。他麾下的朝鲜水师曾在1592年4月大败日本侵略军。李舜臣还发明了龟船。他也是为数不多的能够打赢所指挥的每一场海战（至少23场）的海军将领。
motojackal
Sun 01 Oct 2006, 06:35
Caesar was defeated in the civil war against Pompey in the first battle in Greece, he was forced to withdraw.
Wellington was undefeated
庞培曾在第一次希腊战役中击败凯撒并迫使其撤军。
威灵顿倒是没吃过败仗。
Potemkin
Sun 01 Oct 2006, 07:45
Good point. However, Pompey threw away his advantage by attacking Caesar's army again prematurely, even though it was trapped and haemorraging to death; he could simply have waited for Caesar's army to melt away.
We can say though that Caesar didn't lose any of his campaigns.
说得好。然而，庞培却放弃已占得的优势选择冒失地再次进攻凯撒，当时庞培已经把凯撒的军队团团围住而且切断了补给线；他完全可以慢慢把凯撒的军队活活饿死。
尽管我们可以说这一次失败没有对凯撒造成任何损失，但不可否认凯撒的确吃瘪过。
MB.
Fri 15 Dec 2006, 02:11
Did Fieldmarshal Montgomery ever lose a battle? I know some of his operations weren't exactly total successes, but was he ever defeated?
蒙哥马利元帅失败过吗？虽说他的一些战例算不上完胜，但好像他也没彻底输掉过一场战役吧？
von-Clausewitz
Fri 15 Dec 2006, 05:03
By Eisenhower, deffinately
But it depends what you mean by defeat. Both Tobruk and El-Alemane were constantly been taken and lost again. So, he was defeated tactically. The same as Rommel.
But as with Rommel, he got back into the ring, and ended up at Normandy for a re-match.
In that case could it be said that Guderin never lost a battle?
He had the command taken away from him before his army was thrown back from Kursk/Kiev decissively. So the battles he took part in, to the end, he won every one.
妥妥的艾森豪威尔。
但这也的看你如何定义失败。无论在托布鲁克和阿拉曼，艾森豪威尔和隆美尔都曾陷入过拉锯战。所以在战术上他的确曾被击败过，隆美尔也一样。
但相较于隆美尔，艾森豪威尔笑到了最后，凭借着诺曼底登陆他取得了大战的最终胜利。
既然这样我们是否可以认为古德里安百战百胜呢？
无论是在库尔斯克还是基辅，古德里安都参与了战役的前期指挥并取得阶段性胜利，随后他的指挥权被其他人替换，而战役则在别人手里输掉。所以就某种意义而言，古德里安从没在自己参与的过程中输掉过任何一场战役。
ballybofy
Sun 01 Apr 2007, 20:13
Wellington ???
威灵顿？？？
Ezekiel39
Fri 06 Apr 2007, 23:27
Mao Tsetung.
毛。
Potemkin
Sat 07 Apr 2007, 05:57
Gesundheit!
楼上好同志！干了这杯酒！
Smilin' dave
Sun 08 Apr 2007, 23:37
Weren't Mao's forces chewed up pretty badly before and during the Long March?
在长征前的第五次反围剿以及长征途中毛的军队不是损失相当惨重么？
Gletkin
Tue 29 Apr 2008, 01:19
Georgi Konstantinovich Zhukov.
I can't think of any battle that he had lost.
First, he smashed the Japanese at the Mongolian border, forcing them to sue for peace and securing the USSR's Eastern Front.
Then he was summoned to Moscow in 1941 to break the Nazi siege of that city.
From then on, it was a relentless rollback of the Nazi invasion....all the way to Berlin.
我选朱可夫元帅。
在我印象中他从未战败过。
首先，他在苏蒙边境蹂躏过日本鬼子，迫使日本与苏联签订互不侵犯条约，保障了东段边界的稳定。
然后他又在1941年坐镇莫斯科彻底糟蹋了纳粹的疯狂进攻。
而后，他又一举攻克柏林，回敬了纳粹一壶。
Lensky1917
Thu 01 May 2008, 14:11
Although he was not a General, and he was defeated, I can't help but feel that Admiral Yamamoto deserves some respect. I also read about Zhukov, and he seemed quite capable as well.
尽管他不是一名（陆军）将军，也曾被击败过，我还是由衷佩服山本五十六海军上将。我也读过一些有关朱可夫元帅的资料，他的作战指挥水平也很逆天啊。
Corporatios
Sat 29 Nov 2008, 07:31
I have a list of generals who might have been undefeated,although I can't find enough sources to be sure.These are:
Phillip-(father of Alexander the Great)
Justinianos and Herakleios-(Byzantine emperors during the big expansion of Byzantine borders)
Frederick Barbarosa-(Holy Roman Emperor who died in an accident,during a victorious till that moment Crusade)
尽管我手头的参考资料可能不算完整，我还是能举出一打没吃过败仗的将军，他们是：
马其顿国王腓力-（亚历山大大帝他爹）
查士丁尼和希拉克略-（拜占庭帝国扩张时期的两位皇帝）
弗雷德里克·巴巴罗萨-（神圣罗马帝国皇帝，曾参加十字军东征却在战役获胜前意外驾崩-酒驾溺水而亡，据称水深只有半米）
catalinmarian
Sat 27 Jun 2009, 12:36
Alexander Suvorov is one of the few undefeated generals of all time
亚历山大·苏沃洛夫是有史以来仅有的几位不败将军之一。
Hamza S
Sun 28 Feb 2010, 15:19
Its strange how no one mentioned Khaled ibn al Waleed... he never lost a battle, and he did manage to defeat both the Byzantine and Persian empires, with a much smaller and untrained force. I doubt that Islam would have been able to reach anyone beyond the arabian desert if khaled didn't exist..
咋没有人提哈立德·伊本·阿尔瓦利德呢...他从未尝败绩，以弱克强击败过拜占庭与波斯两大帝国。若不是哈立德战神降临恐怕伊斯兰教连阿拉伯沙漠都走不出呢。
Quantum
Fri 19 Mar 2010, 12:16
Holt wrote:
Yi Sun-sin. A Korean naval leader noted for his victories against the Japanese navy during Hideyoshi's Invasions of Korea, during the Joseon Dynasty. He led the victories as the Lord High Admiral of the Korean Naval fleet during Japan's April 1592 invasion. Yi is also known for his innovation of the Turtle ships. He is reputed to be one of the few admirals to have been victorious in every naval battle (at least 23) that he commanded.
I was going to say this because in the Battle of Myeongnyang, on October 26, 1597, Yi destroyed 31 Japanese ships, disabled 92 ships disabled and inflicted 12,000 casualties whilst losing no ships and only suffered 5 casualties (2 KIA, 3 WIA). The Battle of Hansan Island on August 14, 1592 was also remarkable because he destroyed 47 ships, captured 12 ships and caused 9,000 casualties on the Japanese naval fleet whilst losing no ships and only suffered 133 casualties (19 KIA, 114 WIA). Achieving such a disparity in damage and casualties ranks the Korean the highest among military leaders in history.
引用Holt发言：
“我选李舜臣。一位在丰臣秀吉侵朝战争中带领朝鲜水师痛击日本海军的李氏王朝水师提督。他麾下的朝鲜水师曾在1592年4月大败日本侵略军。李舜臣还发明了龟船。他也是为数不多的能够打赢所指挥的每一场海战（至少23场）的海军将领。”
我想谈谈1597年10月26日爆发的露梁海战，是役李舜臣麾下的朝鲜水师击沉了日舰31艘，重创92艘，日军伤亡12000人而朝军仅伤亡5人（2死3伤）。1592年8月14日的闲山岛海战同样令人称道，朝鲜水师共击沉日舰47艘，俘获12艘，日本海军伤亡达9000人而朝军战船无一损失，仅伤亡133人（19死114伤）。如此卓著的战绩，如此悬殊的伤亡交换比足以使朝鲜将领傲立于世界军史之中！
BasiC
Fri 20 Aug 2010, 09:42
Suvorov fought in over 60 battles and was never defeated both as generalissimo and in lower ranks.
He was in the military his whole life and had one of his greatest military achievements right before his death at the age of 70.
Another one is obviously Alexander the great about whom there is no need to elaborate.
The third one i am aware of is Genghis Khan who was also undefeated and as a result of his efforts and military brilliance the mongol empire was the largest contiguous empire ad the second largest empire in human history after the british one and only by a small fraction.
无论是作为总司令还是下级军官，苏沃洛夫在所经历的60余战从未尝败绩。
戎马一生的他最大的军事成就之一便是在70高龄时寿终正寝。
而另一位常胜将军自然是亚历山大大帝。
还有一位我认为应该是成吉思汗，他的骄人战绩和杰出的军事才华使得蒙古帝国成为人类历史上疆域仅次于大英帝国的第二大帝国。
Cook
Thu 30 Sep 2010, 22:22
Lord Wellington was never defeated.
In World War One there was General Sir John Monash.
Montgomery wrote: I would name Sir John Monash as the best general on the western front in Europe.
http://www.awm.gov.au/exhibitions/1918/people/genmonash.asp
威灵顿勋爵是不可战胜的。
还有一战著名将领约翰·莫纳什爵士。
蒙哥马利曾写道：我认为约翰·莫纳什爵士是欧战西线最杰出的将领，没有之一。
http://www.awm.gov.au/exhibitions/1918/people/genmonash.asp
bartieboy
Sat 04 Dec 2010, 06:11
correct me if im wrong but isnt Robert Clive, 1st Baron Clive undefeated?
In his actions in india against the indians, french and my beloved dutch countrymen i cant find any battles he didnt win.
besides, its not to hard to find a commander who has never lost. just find a commander who commanded only one battle, won and got commisioned in staff duty's. I bet that isnt to hard to find right?
besides i believe Herbert Kitchener, 1st Earl Kitchener
was ever defeated?
我依稀记得罗伯特·克莱武，也就是克莱武男爵一世好像没吃过败仗？
在印度，无论是与印度土著，法国人还是我亲爱的荷兰同胞的战役中，克莱武好像是战无不胜吧~
而且，作为一位指挥官，没吃过败仗几乎不可能吧？如果一位指挥官只指挥过一次战役而且打赢了，这算不算常胜将军呢？如果算的话，那这样的例子就多着去了。
Mubashar Ahmad
Wed 09 Feb 2011, 02:27
Khalid ibn al-Walid, a muslim general, is one of three military generals in history to remain undefeated in battle.
MSL将领哈立德·伊本·阿尔瓦利德是世界战争史中三位百胜将军之一。
bartieboy
Wed 09 Feb 2011, 14:46
maybe you didnt read it to well...
there are more then 3 generals who never lost a war,
Alexander the Great
Genghis khan
Alexander Suvorov (my favorite of the 3, besides does anyone know a book about him?)
oh and Bartolomeo d'Alviano also came quite close to being undefeated...
楼上的孩纸，书读得还不到位啊...
历史上没吃过败仗的将军可不止三位，
亚历山大大帝
成吉思汗
亚历山大·苏沃洛夫（3人中我最喜欢的一位，此外，有人知道曾出版过一部讲述他人生经历的书么？）
啊，还有巴尔托洛梅奥·达·阿尔维亚诺，他也几乎没被打败过...
TAGardner
Thu 17 Feb 2011, 19:07
Edward III. Arguably the most successful general / commander in European history. He not only consistantly won every battle he fought but generally won heavily outnumbered. Dupplin Moor, Crecy, to name two. At the first he slaughtered a Scottish army by all estimates over ten (10) times the size of his own. At Crecy he defeated a larger French knight army more thoroughly than would later occur at Agincourt. He also won the naval battle of Sluys in one of the most impressive defeats of a navy in European history. His defeat of the French navy there far exceeds in ships sunk and captured along with men killed the defeat of the Spanish Armada.
Yet, he remains largely forgotten as a military commander.
别忘了爱德华三世。他可是欧洲历史上最杰出的将领/指挥官。他不仅打赢了其指挥的每次战役而且常常以少胜多。我只举两个例子：达普林沼泽之战与克雷西战役。前者中英格兰军屠杀了十倍于己的苏格兰军。而克雷西战役中其麾下的英军比在稍后爆发的阿金库尔战役中更为彻底地摧毁了法兰西重骑兵军团。爱德华三世还赢得了斯鲁伊斯海战这一欧洲历史上最为惨烈的海战的胜利。是役中他击沉了大量的法军战船，也俘获无数法军士兵与战船，其数目远超后来被歼灭的西班牙无敌舰队。
然而，人们一般不把他看做军事指挥官，因为他的另一个身份是国王。
Hachiman Taro
Tue 31 May 2011, 14:13
Admiral Yi was not the innovator of the Turtle Ships. His name just happens to be the most closely associated with it.
Also, he was not undefeated. I don't have my books with me so I can't give you an exact battle, but he did have a blemish on his record.
I'm assuming when you say Tokugawa, you are referring to Tokugawa Ieyasu?
He most certainly did have a blemish on his record. He lost to the Takeda at the Battle of Mikatagahara in 1573.
龟船可不是李舜臣发明的。他只不过最大程度地发挥了其作战功能。
而且，他也不是没吃过败仗。虽然我说不出到底他输掉了哪次战役，但他的军旅生涯中的确是有污点的。
当我一提及德川，你是不是立刻就想到了德川家康啊？
他的征战记录中同样有污点。1573年的三方原合战中他输给了武田玄信。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.com 翻译：德川宣鉴 转载请注明出处
正文翻译:Red Rebel
Wed 13 Sep 2006, 10:23
What generals/commanders/military leaders, could be called undefeated?
The person I was thinking of was German General Paul Erich von Lettow-Vorbeck, but I can't think of any other generals who can claim that. Please post anyone you can think of.
同志们，你们认为哪些将军/指挥官/军事领袖算得上常胜将军？
楼主我觉得德军将领保罗·埃里希·冯·莱托-维尔贝克算得上一号，但还有没有其他能堪此盛名的将军呢？希望楼下各位大侠不吝赐教。
评论翻译:原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.com 翻译：德川宣鉴 转载请注明出处
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Potemkin
Wed 13 Sep 2006, 18:03
Alexander the Great.
亚历山大大帝。
Holt
Wed 13 Sep 2006, 22:01
Damn, you've taken the obvious one.
擦~一楼终结此贴。
Potemkin
Thu 14 Sep 2006, 04:26
There's also Julius Caesar, who I don't think lost any of his military battles (though you could argue that he lost a political 'battle' by being assassinated).
应该还有凯撒大帝吧，我不记得他输掉过哪场战役（当然，你有权利钻牛角尖说他输掉过一场“政治斗争”还为此搭上了性命）。
Geoff
Sun 17 Sep 2006, 17:49
Winston's ancestor, John Churchill, The first Duke of Marlborough. (17th - 18th centuries)
Supposedly the Greatest British General.
I don't think he was ever defeated. (?)
温斯顿·丘吉尔的祖辈，马尔堡公爵一世约翰·丘吉尔（17-18世纪）。
据说是当年大英帝国最伟大的将军。
我可不认为他曾吃过败仗。
Stjepan
Sun 17 Sep 2006, 19:12
I would have liked to say Skanderbeg, but he suffered a couple defeats even though his numerous victories were all against seemingly impossible odds.
我选斯坎德培，尽管他遭受过两次失败，但绝大多数战役中他都能够绝境逢生反败为胜。
wesleyadama
Mon 18 Sep 2006, 03:29
Lord Admiral Hortatio Nelson. I don't think he lost any of his naval battles, won the most decisive naval Battle, securing Britains safety from Napolean's navy. However, it did cost him his life, so does it count? also I know he was not a General.
海军上将纳尔逊。他可没输过一场海战，在对抗拿破仑海军保卫英国本土安全的过程中他指挥并取得了大多数决定性战役的胜利。然而，他也为此付出了自己的生命，不知道这算不算数？而且他好像也不是一般意义上的将军...
Geoff
Fri 22 Sep 2006, 02:30
As a military leader, it does count. But it's a good question: isn't death a defeat?
纳尔逊是一位军事领袖，这当然算数。不过你提出了一个很好的问题：阵亡于一场获胜的战役中算是个人的失败么？
Holt
Sat 23 Sep 2006, 02:30
Yi Sun-sin. A Korean naval leader noted for his victories against the Japanese navy during Hideyoshi's Invasions of Korea, during the Joseon Dynasty. He led the victories as the Lord High Admiral of the Korean Naval fleet during Japan's April 1592 invasion. Yi is also known for his innovation of the Turtle ships. He is reputed to be one of the few admirals to have been victorious in every naval battle (at least 23) that he commanded.
我选李舜臣。一位在丰臣秀吉侵朝战争中带领朝鲜水师痛击日本海军的李氏王朝水师提督。他麾下的朝鲜水师曾在1592年4月大败日本侵略军。李舜臣还发明了龟船。他也是为数不多的能够打赢所指挥的每一场海战（至少23场）的海军将领。
motojackal
Sun 01 Oct 2006, 06:35
Caesar was defeated in the civil war against Pompey in the first battle in Greece, he was forced to withdraw.
Wellington was undefeated
庞培曾在第一次希腊战役中击败凯撒并迫使其撤军。
威灵顿倒是没吃过败仗。
Potemkin
Sun 01 Oct 2006, 07:45
Good point. However, Pompey threw away his advantage by attacking Caesar's army again prematurely, even though it was trapped and haemorraging to death; he could simply have waited for Caesar's army to melt away.
We can say though that Caesar didn't lose any of his campaigns.
说得好。然而，庞培却放弃已占得的优势选择冒失地再次进攻凯撒，当时庞培已经把凯撒的军队团团围住而且切断了补给线；他完全可以慢慢把凯撒的军队活活饿死。
尽管我们可以说这一次失败没有对凯撒造成任何损失，但不可否认凯撒的确吃瘪过。
MB.
Fri 15 Dec 2006, 02:11
Did Fieldmarshal Montgomery ever lose a battle? I know some of his operations weren't exactly total successes, but was he ever defeated?
蒙哥马利元帅失败过吗？虽说他的一些战例算不上完胜，但好像他也没彻底输掉过一场战役吧？
von-Clausewitz
Fri 15 Dec 2006, 05:03
By Eisenhower, deffinately
But it depends what you mean by defeat. Both Tobruk and El-Alemane were constantly been taken and lost again. So, he was defeated tactically. The same as Rommel.
But as with Rommel, he got back into the ring, and ended up at Normandy for a re-match.
In that case could it be said that Guderin never lost a battle?
He had the command taken away from him before his army was thrown back from Kursk/Kiev decissively. So the battles he took part in, to the end, he won every one.
妥妥的艾森豪威尔。
但这也的看你如何定义失败。无论在托布鲁克和阿拉曼，艾森豪威尔和隆美尔都曾陷入过拉锯战。所以在战术上他的确曾被击败过，隆美尔也一样。
但相较于隆美尔，艾森豪威尔笑到了最后，凭借着诺曼底登陆他取得了大战的最终胜利。
既然这样我们是否可以认为古德里安百战百胜呢？
无论是在库尔斯克还是基辅，古德里安都参与了战役的前期指挥并取得阶段性胜利，随后他的指挥权被其他人替换，而战役则在别人手里输掉。所以就某种意义而言，古德里安从没在自己参与的过程中输掉过任何一场战役。
ballybofy
Sun 01 Apr 2007, 20:13
Wellington ???
威灵顿？？？
Ezekiel39
Fri 06 Apr 2007, 23:27
Mao Tsetung.
毛。
Potemkin
Sat 07 Apr 2007, 05:57
Gesundheit!
楼上好同志！干了这杯酒！
Smilin' dave
Sun 08 Apr 2007, 23:37
Weren't Mao's forces chewed up pretty badly before and during the Long March?
在长征前的第五次反围剿以及长征途中毛的军队不是损失相当惨重么？
Gletkin
Tue 29 Apr 2008, 01:19
Georgi Konstantinovich Zhukov.
I can't think of any battle that he had lost.
First, he smashed the Japanese at the Mongolian border, forcing them to sue for peace and securing the USSR's Eastern Front.
Then he was summoned to Moscow in 1941 to break the Nazi siege of that city.
From then on, it was a relentless rollback of the Nazi invasion....all the way to Berlin.
我选朱可夫元帅。
在我印象中他从未战败过。
首先，他在苏蒙边境蹂躏过日本鬼子，迫使日本与苏联签订互不侵犯条约，保障了东段边界的稳定。
然后他又在1941年坐镇莫斯科彻底糟蹋了纳粹的疯狂进攻。
而后，他又一举攻克柏林，回敬了纳粹一壶。
Lensky1917
Thu 01 May 2008, 14:11
Although he was not a General, and he was defeated, I can't help but feel that Admiral Yamamoto deserves some respect. I also read about Zhukov, and he seemed quite capable as well.
尽管他不是一名（陆军）将军，也曾被击败过，我还是由衷佩服山本五十六海军上将。我也读过一些有关朱可夫元帅的资料，他的作战指挥水平也很逆天啊。
Corporatios
Sat 29 Nov 2008, 07:31
I have a list of generals who might have been undefeated,although I can't find enough sources to be sure.These are:
Phillip-(father of Alexander the Great)
Justinianos and Herakleios-(Byzantine emperors during the big expansion of Byzantine borders)
Frederick Barbarosa-(Holy Roman Emperor who died in an accident,during a victorious till that moment Crusade)
尽管我手头的参考资料可能不算完整，我还是能举出一打没吃过败仗的将军，他们是：
马其顿国王腓力-（亚历山大大帝他爹）
查士丁尼和希拉克略-（拜占庭帝国扩张时期的两位皇帝）
弗雷德里克·巴巴罗萨-（神圣罗马帝国皇帝，曾参加十字军东征却在战役获胜前意外驾崩-酒驾溺水而亡，据称水深只有半米）
catalinmarian
Sat 27 Jun 2009, 12:36
Alexander Suvorov is one of the few undefeated generals of all time
亚历山大·苏沃洛夫是有史以来仅有的几位不败将军之一。
Hamza S
Sun 28 Feb 2010, 15:19
Its strange how no one mentioned Khaled ibn al Waleed... he never lost a battle, and he did manage to defeat both the Byzantine and Persian empires, with a much smaller and untrained force. I doubt that Islam would have been able to reach anyone beyond the arabian desert if khaled didn't exist..
咋没有人提哈立德·伊本·阿尔瓦利德呢...他从未尝败绩，以弱克强击败过拜占庭与波斯两大帝国。若不是哈立德战神降临恐怕伊斯兰教连阿拉伯沙漠都走不出呢。
Quantum
Fri 19 Mar 2010, 12:16
Holt wrote:
Yi Sun-sin. A Korean naval leader noted for his victories against the Japanese navy during Hideyoshi's Invasions of Korea, during the Joseon Dynasty. He led the victories as the Lord High Admiral of the Korean Naval fleet during Japan's April 1592 invasion. Yi is also known for his innovation of the Turtle ships. He is reputed to be one of the few admirals to have been victorious in every naval battle (at least 23) that he commanded.
I was going to say this because in the Battle of Myeongnyang, on October 26, 1597, Yi destroyed 31 Japanese ships, disabled 92 ships disabled and inflicted 12,000 casualties whilst losing no ships and only suffered 5 casualties (2 KIA, 3 WIA). The Battle of Hansan Island on August 14, 1592 was also remarkable because he destroyed 47 ships, captured 12 ships and caused 9,000 casualties on the Japanese naval fleet whilst losing no ships and only suffered 133 casualties (19 KIA, 114 WIA). Achieving such a disparity in damage and casualties ranks the Korean the highest among military leaders in history.
引用Holt发言：
“我选李舜臣。一位在丰臣秀吉侵朝战争中带领朝鲜水师痛击日本海军的李氏王朝水师提督。他麾下的朝鲜水师曾在1592年4月大败日本侵略军。李舜臣还发明了龟船。他也是为数不多的能够打赢所指挥的每一场海战（至少23场）的海军将领。”
我想谈谈1597年10月26日爆发的露梁海战，是役李舜臣麾下的朝鲜水师击沉了日舰31艘，重创92艘，日军伤亡12000人而朝军仅伤亡5人（2死3伤）。1592年8月14日的闲山岛海战同样令人称道，朝鲜水师共击沉日舰47艘，俘获12艘，日本海军伤亡达9000人而朝军战船无一损失，仅伤亡133人（19死114伤）。如此卓著的战绩，如此悬殊的伤亡交换比足以使朝鲜将领傲立于世界军史之中！
BasiC
Fri 20 Aug 2010, 09:42
Suvorov fought in over 60 battles and was never defeated both as generalissimo and in lower ranks.
He was in the military his whole life and had one of his greatest military achievements right before his death at the age of 70.
Another one is obviously Alexander the great about whom there is no need to elaborate.
The third one i am aware of is Genghis Khan who was also undefeated and as a result of his efforts and military brilliance the mongol empire was the largest contiguous empire ad the second largest empire in human history after the british one and only by a small fraction.
无论是作为总司令还是下级军官，苏沃洛夫在所经历的60余战从未尝败绩。
戎马一生的他最大的军事成就之一便是在70高龄时寿终正寝。
而另一位常胜将军自然是亚历山大大帝。
还有一位我认为应该是成吉思汗，他的骄人战绩和杰出的军事才华使得蒙古帝国成为人类历史上疆域仅次于大英帝国的第二大帝国。
Cook
Thu 30 Sep 2010, 22:22
Lord Wellington was never defeated.
In World War One there was General Sir John Monash.
Montgomery wrote: I would name Sir John Monash as the best general on the western front in Europe.
http://www.awm.gov.au/exhibitions/1918/people/genmonash.asp
威灵顿勋爵是不可战胜的。
还有一战著名将领约翰·莫纳什爵士。
蒙哥马利曾写道：我认为约翰·莫纳什爵士是欧战西线最杰出的将领，没有之一。
http://www.awm.gov.au/exhibitions/1918/people/genmonash.asp
bartieboy
Sat 04 Dec 2010, 06:11
correct me if im wrong but isnt Robert Clive, 1st Baron Clive undefeated?
In his actions in india against the indians, french and my beloved dutch countrymen i cant find any battles he didnt win.
besides, its not to hard to find a commander who has never lost. just find a commander who commanded only one battle, won and got commisioned in staff duty's. I bet that isnt to hard to find right?
besides i believe Herbert Kitchener, 1st Earl Kitchener
was ever defeated?
我依稀记得罗伯特·克莱武，也就是克莱武男爵一世好像没吃过败仗？
在印度，无论是与印度土著，法国人还是我亲爱的荷兰同胞的战役中，克莱武好像是战无不胜吧~
而且，作为一位指挥官，没吃过败仗几乎不可能吧？如果一位指挥官只指挥过一次战役而且打赢了，这算不算常胜将军呢？如果算的话，那这样的例子就多着去了。
Mubashar Ahmad
Wed 09 Feb 2011, 02:27
Khalid ibn al-Walid, a muslim general, is one of three military generals in history to remain undefeated in battle.
MSL将领哈立德·伊本·阿尔瓦利德是世界战争史中三位百胜将军之一。
bartieboy
Wed 09 Feb 2011, 14:46
maybe you didnt read it to well...
there are more then 3 generals who never lost a war,
Alexander the Great
Genghis khan
Alexander Suvorov (my favorite of the 3, besides does anyone know a book about him?)
oh and Bartolomeo d'Alviano also came quite close to being undefeated...
楼上的孩纸，书读得还不到位啊...
历史上没吃过败仗的将军可不止三位，
亚历山大大帝
成吉思汗
亚历山大·苏沃洛夫（3人中我最喜欢的一位，此外，有人知道曾出版过一部讲述他人生经历的书么？）
啊，还有巴尔托洛梅奥·达·阿尔维亚诺，他也几乎没被打败过...
TAGardner
Thu 17 Feb 2011, 19:07
Edward III. Arguably the most successful general / commander in European history. He not only consistantly won every battle he fought but generally won heavily outnumbered. Dupplin Moor, Crecy, to name two. At the first he slaughtered a Scottish army by all estimates over ten (10) times the size of his own. At Crecy he defeated a larger French knight army more thoroughly than would later occur at Agincourt. He also won the naval battle of Sluys in one of the most impressive defeats of a navy in European history. His defeat of the French navy there far exceeds in ships sunk and captured along with men killed the defeat of the Spanish Armada.
Yet, he remains largely forgotten as a military commander.
别忘了爱德华三世。他可是欧洲历史上最杰出的将领/指挥官。他不仅打赢了其指挥的每次战役而且常常以少胜多。我只举两个例子：达普林沼泽之战与克雷西战役。前者中英格兰军屠杀了十倍于己的苏格兰军。而克雷西战役中其麾下的英军比在稍后爆发的阿金库尔战役中更为彻底地摧毁了法兰西重骑兵军团。爱德华三世还赢得了斯鲁伊斯海战这一欧洲历史上最为惨烈的海战的胜利。是役中他击沉了大量的法军战船，也俘获无数法军士兵与战船，其数目远超后来被歼灭的西班牙无敌舰队。
然而，人们一般不把他看做军事指挥官，因为他的另一个身份是国王。
Hachiman Taro
Tue 31 May 2011, 14:13
Admiral Yi was not the innovator of the Turtle Ships. His name just happens to be the most closely associated with it.
Also, he was not undefeated. I don't have my books with me so I can't give you an exact battle, but he did have a blemish on his record.
I'm assuming when you say Tokugawa, you are referring to Tokugawa Ieyasu?
He most certainly did have a blemish on his record. He lost to the Takeda at the Battle of Mikatagahara in 1573.
龟船可不是李舜臣发明的。他只不过最大程度地发挥了其作战功能。
而且，他也不是没吃过败仗。虽然我说不出到底他输掉了哪次战役，但他的军旅生涯中的确是有污点的。
当我一提及德川，你是不是立刻就想到了德川家康啊？
他的征战记录中同样有污点。1573年的三方原合战中他输给了武田玄信。
我想谈谈1597年10月26日爆发的露梁海战，是役李舜臣麾下的朝鲜水师击沉了日舰31艘，重创92艘，日军伤亡12000人而朝军仅伤亡5人（2死3伤）。1592年8月14日的闲山岛海战同样令人称道，朝鲜水师共击沉日舰47艘，俘获12艘，日本海军伤亡达9000人而朝军战船无一损失，仅伤亡133人（19死114伤）。如此卓著的战绩，如此悬殊的伤亡交换比足以使朝鲜将领傲立于世界军史之中！
====================================
噗~~~~~~~~~
。
李舜臣这货不是死在这一战的么。况且，明军水师参战，一藩属国将领，能有指挥权才见鬼
好吧，我忘了他们是棒子。。
====================================
噗~~~~~~~~~
。李舜臣这货不是死在这一战的么。况且，明军水师参战，一藩属国将领，能有指挥权才见鬼
好吧，我忘了他们是棒子。。
这个话题也算是老生常谈了，但是李舜臣的存在感确实稍微弱了一点。
ljcjaglhy 发表于 2012-12-11 23:26
这个话题也算是老生常谈了，但是李舜臣的存在感确实稍微弱了一点。
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因为根据严谨的考证得出的史实是，老李的战绩，基本都是吹出来的。。。。。。。。。。。。。
按他的战绩统计。壬辰战争中每个参战鬼子都要溺水3-5次，每艘参战的鬼子船——从小舢板到大型登陆舰——都要沉没2-3次才够他打的。
ljcjaglhy 发表于 2012-12-11 23:26
这个话题也算是老生常谈了，但是李舜臣的存在感确实稍微弱了一点。
{:3_97:}{:3_97:}{:3_97:}{:3_97:}
因为根据严谨的考证得出的史实是，老李的战绩，基本都是吹出来的。。。。。。。。。。。。。
按他的战绩统计。壬辰战争中每个参战鬼子都要溺水3-5次，每艘参战的鬼子船——从小舢板到大型登陆舰——都要沉没2-3次才够他打的。
牛皮战绩1:鸣梁海战。
其实从古到今。朝鲜是个没有什么光荣历史可以吹嘘的地方。而在壬辰战争中。更是一路惨败。全靠了明军在作战。可是你也不能让1个民族一点可以吹嘘的都没有吧？那也太可悲了。于是呼。就神话出来那么1个李舜臣来。你说人家吹。废话。人家大小也是1个有着上千年历史的国家。那能天天只聊被揍。被迫进贡女人。那子孙后代还不得听的变态了。神话的主要办法就是全世界通用的夸大战绩
根据日本的说法。此战。藤堂高虎。加腾嘉明。带领的40只日本战船遭遇了敌人，被12只朝鲜战船引诱到了不熟悉的水域，遭到了埋伏在那里的100多只朝鲜战船的围攻。“正巧”海水退潮。日本船被朝鲜预备好的海底的铁索和木桩挡住去路。所以损失了其中几只船。死了37岁的来岛通总等几十个日本人[日本战史。朝鲜战役第368页]。朝鲜损失13只船。而就这么点事就被朝鲜吹嘘为打掉日本31艘战船。击毙4000余人。日军主将被杀的神话故事来。该事迹后来被韩国拍成一部震撼古今，后无来者的吹牛比电影《天军》来。
其实从古到今。朝鲜是个没有什么光荣历史可以吹嘘的地方。而在壬辰战争中。更是一路惨败。全靠了明军在作战。可是你也不能让1个民族一点可以吹嘘的都没有吧？那也太可悲了。于是呼。就神话出来那么1个李舜臣来。你说人家吹。废话。人家大小也是1个有着上千年历史的国家。那能天天只聊被揍。被迫进贡女人。那子孙后代还不得听的变态了。神话的主要办法就是全世界通用的夸大战绩
根据日本的说法。此战。藤堂高虎。加腾嘉明。带领的40只日本战船遭遇了敌人，被12只朝鲜战船引诱到了不熟悉的水域，遭到了埋伏在那里的100多只朝鲜战船的围攻。“正巧”海水退潮。日本船被朝鲜预备好的海底的铁索和木桩挡住去路。所以损失了其中几只船。死了37岁的来岛通总等几十个日本人[日本战史。朝鲜战役第368页]。朝鲜损失13只船。而就这么点事就被朝鲜吹嘘为打掉日本31艘战船。击毙4000余人。日军主将被杀的神话故事来。该事迹后来被韩国拍成一部震撼古今，后无来者的吹牛比电影《天军》来。
朝鲜有全罗左使李舜臣24艘。庆尚道右使元均7艘和全罗道右使李亿祺25艘等56只朝鲜战船。1592年7月伏击了在巨济岛附近海域的日军。双方在几十米的距离展开近战。朝鲜水师的全部战斗力都体现在利用熟悉地形的优势进行伏击和袭击在近距离作战。日本水军只出动大船21只、中船15只、小船6只、合计42只船。42只日本船却被神勇的朝鲜水师神奇的打掉了63只。参战的日军脇坂安治部队1500人。到第2年5月在晋城作战的时候还有900人。说明在这个战斗的损失最多也不过几百人。其实都到不了。有些书上甚至都吹出了朝鲜水师在5-7月的7次战斗中打掉了400只日船。真乃神迹啊。
其实包括玉浦。泗川湾。袭击战中日本是也损失了38只运输船。但距离400只船。相差的也就忒远了。但要说什么李舜臣切断了日军的后勤线路更是扯淡。从来也没见过日军缺乏过从本土运输来的军械和兵员过。也从来没见过李舜臣到过外海大洋之上过。还妄谈什么切断了日军的后勤线路？韩国坚持不懈的。无所畏惧的吹嘘连日本人都看不下去了。
其实包括玉浦。泗川湾。袭击战中日本是也损失了38只运输船。但距离400只船。相差的也就忒远了。但要说什么李舜臣切断了日军的后勤线路更是扯淡。从来也没见过日军缺乏过从本土运输来的军械和兵员过。也从来没见过李舜臣到过外海大洋之上过。还妄谈什么切断了日军的后勤线路？韩国坚持不懈的。无所畏惧的吹嘘连日本人都看不下去了。
露梁海战日军水师战将岛津义宏。立花宗茂和高桥直次带领500只战船。17000日军出战。迎战的明军水师是陈璘。王元周领导的600只海船和19400名明军。李舜臣的朝鲜水师不过是打下手的。才100只船和7000士兵。李舜臣和邓子龙都是担任伏兵角色。分别埋伏在露梁海峡北侧和南海岛附近的观音浦。明朝海军提督陈璘才是统帅。带领主力在竹岛和水门洞。准备和日军水师进行最后的主力决战。日军在1598年11月18日失败后。向外突围的时候在观音浦打死了前来封堵的李舜臣和明军邓子龙。随后明军主力压上激战。日军大败。露梁海战和中途岛海战的日本海军300年不败的神话的一头一尾。
常胜将军嘛，天朝多了去了。
孙子、吴起、白起、李牧、韩信、卫青、霍去病、李靖、苏定方、裴行俭、王阳明、戚继光。。。
孙子、吴起、白起、李牧、韩信、卫青、霍去病、李靖、苏定方、裴行俭、王阳明、戚继光。。。
我们地筒子散布五湖四海^O^
我还是最崇拜粟大将 搜集过所有能找到的书研究他来自: Android客户端
我还是最崇拜粟大将 搜集过所有能找到的书研究他来自: Android客户端
undefeated？Henri Guisan，妥妥的！在他49年的从军生涯中未尝一败！啊？你们没听说过这位将军？呃……他是瑞士人……