转贴自爬山虎~世界围观黑丝系列之~~~~~英国人比较有爱！

这几天，中国第四代战斗机的泄漏照片应该是焦点中的焦点了。我们可以先看看国外网络的反映。keypublishing算是比较专业，喷子也很少的军事论坛。这儿没有太多关于意识形态的废话，更多的还是对于装备本身的讨论。氛围还是不错滴。
另：因为内容相对专业，虽然已经尽量避免，但遇到看不懂的词语还是请自行谷歌吧。实在没法一一详解，见谅。


22nd December 2010, 17:58  
PINKO:


Well, I have no idea, the latest news is it's very close to the maiden flight

Final taxi way run seems finished...


恩。。好吧，我也不蛋定了。最新的消息是已经快要首飞了。看上去已经完成了滑行实验
TOP↑
评论翻译22nd December 2010, 18:04  
Fedaykin :

Firstly well done Pinko for hitting the 1000 post mark!

首先我得说。。。。我靠。PINKO 你太猛了。让鹳狸猿给你加官进爵！

22nd December 2010, 18:08  
Fedaykin

What  is it?

这到底啥东东啊？

22nd December 2010, 20:18  
KYL

It might be J20. If it is what we think it is, then we should see a clear picture of J20 soon.

这可能是J20,如果如我们所料的话，我们应该很快就能看到更清楚的J20的图片了。

22nd December 2010, 20:23  
Griffon39

Looks like an F-117 Flanker.

Before we open the champagne bottles we'll need to let our PS-sniffing dogs loose on it though. I guess.

What can you tell us about the pic, Pinko? Very good and interesting find!

看上去像117啊。。。。。

不过在我们开香槟庆祝之前，还是鉴别一下是不是伪图先，PS帝何在？

对了PINKO，这么有爱的图怎么来的啊。说来听听

23rd December 2010, 15:12  
Fedaykin

On another note it does show how times are changing in the PRC. I would think a decade or two ago if you got that close to the airfield testing a secret new jet with a camera you would be shot no questions asked! Now you can walk up with your camera/camera phone sit in a hedge and take some pictures then go home to post them on the Chinese blogosphere!

哎。另一方面也可以看出中国的进步啊，这要是放十年二十年前，谁敢去机场偷拍那就不是自寻死路吗，现在居然有人敢光明正大的拿着相机坐那拍，还能把图发到网上了。

23rd December 2010, 15:37  
medal64

If that is the case, I would highly suggest you book the next flight and join the army of speculators mobilized there, the texiway run may still last for a while, and upload to this board LIVE via your Iphone.

你要真这么想的话，我强烈建议你现在就定个航班飞成都去，现在估计滑行实验还没弄完呢，你可以去机场那给我们拍点照片，然后用IPHONE传上来。

23rd December 2010, 15:12  
Fedaykin

Now that would be interesting on the holiday visa application at the Chinese embassy in London:

I would like to visit China to go to the Chengdu factory stand at the fence and take pictures of your secret new stealth jet. Oh and buy some of that lovely spicy sauce you can only usually buy at specialist shops...

好吧，让我们看看我该怎么去跟中国大使馆的人面签：

“嘿，伙计，我想去成都。。。。。那个132所，对对，就是刚飞丝带内个。我要去拍它最新的果照去！对了，我还得去带些老干妈回来。哎，你知道的，这么好的东西居然只有中国卖。”

23rd December 2010, 15:12  
Fedaykin

One thing I think you can guarantee that when decent pictures get out the Japanese and South Korean blogosphere will go into a frenzy!

Might push Japan into pushing forward with its next generation indiginous stealth fighter project.

想想这照片要是到了日韩的话。。。。。估计他们的网络会闹翻天吧。
我倒是觉得我们应该趁机向日本推销“台风”战斗机。。。。恩，这个主意不错。

24th December 2010, 23:02  
Eagle Talon

No PSed images this time - and no CGs either. This composite drawing is based on the real J-20, and includes descriptions by eyewitnesses. The J-20 prototype is dark green in colour - and the eyewitnesses were speculating if it is some type of stealth or radar absorbing coating. There are twin vertical tails, somewhat similar to the F-117A, but on the J-20 prototype they are widely spread apart instead of being in a V-tail as on the F-117A. Side air intakes with DSI "bumps;" twin small ventral fins, near the wings trailing edge; and two under-wing pylons. The aircraft difinitely has canards and the whole forward fuselage - fuselage, cockpit/canpy and independently moving canards all seem to be one unit. The J-20 has a one-piece canopy; and there is a pitot attached on top of the nose of the aircraft. It is also reported that there is a red star on the vertical tails and the number "35" is on the side of the forward fuselage. It has a double-wheeled nose gear and single main landing gear units (tricycle type)



没有PS，没有CG，事实很清楚了。就是J20。这个原型机的暗绿色表皮据目击者说应该是隐身涂层，双垂尾，类似F117A,但J20的垂尾是可以转动的。DSI进气口分居两侧，避免机底过于隆起。独立鸭翼，似乎可以全向转动。一体式滑降伞，双腹鳍，各个可转向的副鳍应该都是由一个独立系统来控制。有风速杆，一体式座舱，垂尾鳍上有红五星字样。前面是双轮主起落架，后面两个单轮副起落架。鉴定完毕。

2010年12月25日，10:48

Erwinhans

Nothing was showed in that pic.

But what about this?

真是奇怪的照片，UP主表示什么也不知道 （这是当时最新公布的清晰谍照-----译者注）



25th December 2010, 12:26  
visitant  

wow, a clear one come out. Although the whole proportion seems not right for obviously missing some part of the original photo, and some details may be purposefully PSed, but it's definite the most reliable photo upto now.

LOL, finally got why someone describe the fins are F35 style, while others say it's similar to F117.

我去，高清无码终于流出来了，虽然比例不是很正确，也还缺少一些部分，还有些细节被故意隐瞒了，但这已经是最靠谱的照片了。
呵呵，终于知道为什么有人说尾鳍像F35了。当然，你也可以说它像F117。
25th December 2010, 16:07  
GoldenDragon

I think if we looked at the J-10 and FC-1 threads in years past, we would find similar numbers.

For all its mystery, China has been like clockwork with its fighters projects in the past decade. Every five years or so you'll first get rumors, then hints and finally full pictures of aircraft.

Sites like AFM and CDF have been become a default platform to watch these events.

我想如果我们回顾一下J10和FC1的历程，我们不难发现相似之处。

在过去十年里，中国从来都在暗中进行着他们的战斗机计划，掩盖的非常好，直到进行了一段时间你才能听到留言，然后是疑似图，最终才是完整的图片和实物。

现在我们已经习惯于从AFM和CDF这两个论坛上得到相关的信息了（多谢hijjjj指正）




25th December 2010, 16:48  
foxmulder

"rumors" turned out to be quite true...

“谣言”居然这么准？（这个帖子两个星期前就开了，应该是得到了相关的情报-----译者注）

25th December 2010, 15:34  
kursed

There are over 700 guests watching this thread, right now. Wow! This seems to have captured just about everyone's imagination. Can't wait for more pictures to come out, this is turning out to be one fine end of the year.
哇奥，现在居然有700多个人在关注这个帖子，这简直出乎所有人的意料，即使没有更多的图片出来，这个岁末也够给力的了

25th December 2010, 17:13  
Pinko

Ya, that’s really one memorable moment when we saw so many ppl viewing this thread at the same time. A miracle happened on Christmas

不会吧。居然这么多人在看直播，太猛了。我发自肺腑的想说：来吧，圣诞节，这是见证奇迹的时刻!

26th December 2010, 06:00  
KYL

I don't want to enter another debate regarding the existence of a fighter, but I hope this time any discussion would base on facts and emphasize objective reasoning not subjective opinions with bias. Even though the existence of J20 is far from conclusive, the people who ask why are all these pictures are tiny have selectively ignored the fundamental facts about China. Unless these photos are released from the blessing of official government, people who released these photos are taking enormous risk because of the uncertainty over national security law. Other issues such as PS, mock ups, and fake photos should be good points to make over the debate. We still have long journey to go before reaching the consensus over J20's existence.

对于J20，我不想争辩什么，不过我还是希望我们的讨论能够基于客观的事实及合理的，没有偏见的推理，为什么讨论这些照片的人都有意无意的忽视了一个看上去微不足道的基本事实呢------毕竟它是来自中国的，除非官方公开宣布，否则公开这些照片的人们不是会遇到不可预知的风险吗？如果这是PS的，模拟的，或者假照片，那也说不定啊，反正关于于J20 ，看来我们要达成共识还需要一个过程。

26th December 2010, 15:39  
KYL
We not only have "fency party". I guess it won't be long before some good quality pictures appear.
好吧。我确信我们不仅有卧草党。。。。。应该马上就有更清晰的图片了。



26th December 2010, 21:11  
Multirole

I'm rather surprised by the dihedral canards and anhedral wings. That doesn't seem ideal for radar stealth.
真是奇怪。留着个鸭翼，难道是给对方雷达(发现自己)准备的？

26th December 2010, 23:03  
Sign

thats a myth i would say. (an added angle thou, which is not good), also depending on materials..overlap would also be bad.
A close coupled canard often designed this way, for added canard vortex lift (tip of the canard is a level over the mainwing)

依我看这可未必，鸭翼是增大反射面积，但也得看用的什么材料，而且鸭式布局的最大好处是能增加机动能力。





虽然看上跟F22差不多“厚”，但我敢说从其他角度看的话，这飞机一定酷毙了，至少比现在所有的五代机要好看。

27th December 2010, 04:49  
Wanderlei

so, if this is all genuine... figure by 2015 China should have 100-200 of these birds in service, plus more advanced version in works. How many Su-50s will Russia have in service by then?

我觉得中国到2015年得能装备100-200架了。说不定还有改进版，你们说那时俄罗斯的T50能装多少?

27th December 2010, 06:18  
Rajan

At least 500. If China can manage to have 2015 than Russia can have more than 500.

如果中国能造100-200架,那么俄罗斯至少能造500架  （多谢realjojo指正）


Also, everyone has to compromise some aspect of aerodynamics for stealth. Its a question of compromises. The PAKFA also reflects that but should be able to carry a decent payload but not an extraordinary one, but to a decent range. Its like the next generation of the Flanker, with better supersonic performance & BVR capability, with stealth & advanced avionics.

This J-20 aircraft really looks huge to me, and appears thicker than a casual comparison to the F-23. The aircraft will really need powerful engines, and I think Russia has a good thing going, with 117S to China, while it develops the next one for the definitive PAKFA. I do think the PRC will continue to rely on the 117S as they did with the J-10, for the first 100-150 odd airframes.

Another thing is if the fanart posted by Hotdog is correct, then planform alignment is apparently out of the window, reducing effectiveness for stealth.

I'd also wager the avionics on this aircraft won't be as advanced as those on the PAKFA, but they should still allow for quite decent capability, more than those on the existing J-10.

Overall, if this aircraft is really as big as it appears to be, then its like a reduced RCS F-105 Thunderchief. This is one big plane. May not be so agile or maneuverable as other 5G designs, but it should have a good top speed, and will have some really impressive range & payload. That may be actually a result of the priorities handed down by the PLAAF to the CAC designers. Which means China wants a plane that can range far with a good payload, and stay on patrol for a while. Japan, ROC, wonder which theater is affected most.


每个人都在讨论隐身性能，其实隐身和性能，本身就是一个矛盾，战斗机需要足够的有效载荷，而不是看上去多么好看，PAKFA就反映了这个问题，作为苏27侧卫的换代机，他选择了更好的超音速性能和超视距攻击能力。然后在这个基础上兼顾了隐身和航电装备。

J20看起来真是够大的。比F23还厚，不过这就需要它配有足够强大的发动机，我认为俄罗斯会继续出口117S到中国。别忘了TG还有着100多架J10战斗机也等着用呢。

还有一件事是，如果FANART的图是正确的，那看上去座舱盖并不是一体的，这会严重影响隐身效果的。

我还打赌J20的电子设备没有T50先进，当然，比J10强那是肯定的。

总之，如果这个飞机真的有看上去这么大，那它倒真像是一个减少了雷达反射面积的F105了，虽然因为体积过大让它降低了灵活和可操作性，但它高速，大作战半径，高有效载荷的特点，应该就是PLA空军对设计者提出的要求，因为中国需要这么一架飞机，飞得高，跑得快，并且可以带着一身的炸弹在敌人头上徘徊，久久不愿离去。到那个时候，日本和台湾，不知道谁的头皮会更麻点呢？

这几天，中国第四代战斗机的泄漏照片应该是焦点中的焦点了。我们可以先看看国外网络的反映。keypublishing算是比较专业，喷子也很少的军事论坛。这儿没有太多关于意识形态的废话，更多的还是对于装备本身的讨论。氛围还是不错滴。
另：因为内容相对专业，虽然已经尽量避免，但遇到看不懂的词语还是请自行谷歌吧。实在没法一一详解，见谅。


22nd December 2010, 17:58  
PINKO:


Well, I have no idea, the latest news is it's very close to the maiden flight

Final taxi way run seems finished...


恩。。好吧，我也不蛋定了。最新的消息是已经快要首飞了。看上去已经完成了滑行实验
TOP↑
评论翻译22nd December 2010, 18:04  
Fedaykin :

Firstly well done Pinko for hitting the 1000 post mark!

首先我得说。。。。我靠。PINKO 你太猛了。让鹳狸猿给你加官进爵！

22nd December 2010, 18:08  
Fedaykin

What  is it?

这到底啥东东啊？

22nd December 2010, 20:18  
KYL

It might be J20. If it is what we think it is, then we should see a clear picture of J20 soon.

这可能是J20,如果如我们所料的话，我们应该很快就能看到更清楚的J20的图片了。

22nd December 2010, 20:23  
Griffon39

Looks like an F-117 Flanker.

Before we open the champagne bottles we'll need to let our PS-sniffing dogs loose on it though. I guess.

What can you tell us about the pic, Pinko? Very good and interesting find!

看上去像117啊。。。。。

不过在我们开香槟庆祝之前，还是鉴别一下是不是伪图先，PS帝何在？

对了PINKO，这么有爱的图怎么来的啊。说来听听

23rd December 2010, 15:12  
Fedaykin

On another note it does show how times are changing in the PRC. I would think a decade or two ago if you got that close to the airfield testing a secret new jet with a camera you would be shot no questions asked! Now you can walk up with your camera/camera phone sit in a hedge and take some pictures then go home to post them on the Chinese blogosphere!

哎。另一方面也可以看出中国的进步啊，这要是放十年二十年前，谁敢去机场偷拍那就不是自寻死路吗，现在居然有人敢光明正大的拿着相机坐那拍，还能把图发到网上了。

23rd December 2010, 15:37  
medal64

If that is the case, I would highly suggest you book the next flight and join the army of speculators mobilized there, the texiway run may still last for a while, and upload to this board LIVE via your Iphone.

你要真这么想的话，我强烈建议你现在就定个航班飞成都去，现在估计滑行实验还没弄完呢，你可以去机场那给我们拍点照片，然后用IPHONE传上来。

23rd December 2010, 15:12  
Fedaykin

Now that would be interesting on the holiday visa application at the Chinese embassy in London:

I would like to visit China to go to the Chengdu factory stand at the fence and take pictures of your secret new stealth jet. Oh and buy some of that lovely spicy sauce you can only usually buy at specialist shops...

好吧，让我们看看我该怎么去跟中国大使馆的人面签：

“嘿，伙计，我想去成都。。。。。那个132所，对对，就是刚飞丝带内个。我要去拍它最新的果照去！对了，我还得去带些老干妈回来。哎，你知道的，这么好的东西居然只有中国卖。”

23rd December 2010, 15:12  
Fedaykin

One thing I think you can guarantee that when decent pictures get out the Japanese and South Korean blogosphere will go into a frenzy!

Might push Japan into pushing forward with its next generation indiginous stealth fighter project.

想想这照片要是到了日韩的话。。。。。估计他们的网络会闹翻天吧。
我倒是觉得我们应该趁机向日本推销“台风”战斗机。。。。恩，这个主意不错。

24th December 2010, 23:02  
Eagle Talon

No PSed images this time - and no CGs either. This composite drawing is based on the real J-20, and includes descriptions by eyewitnesses. The J-20 prototype is dark green in colour - and the eyewitnesses were speculating if it is some type of stealth or radar absorbing coating. There are twin vertical tails, somewhat similar to the F-117A, but on the J-20 prototype they are widely spread apart instead of being in a V-tail as on the F-117A. Side air intakes with DSI "bumps;" twin small ventral fins, near the wings trailing edge; and two under-wing pylons. The aircraft difinitely has canards and the whole forward fuselage - fuselage, cockpit/canpy and independently moving canards all seem to be one unit. The J-20 has a one-piece canopy; and there is a pitot attached on top of the nose of the aircraft. It is also reported that there is a red star on the vertical tails and the number "35" is on the side of the forward fuselage. It has a double-wheeled nose gear and single main landing gear units (tricycle type)



没有PS，没有CG，事实很清楚了。就是J20。这个原型机的暗绿色表皮据目击者说应该是隐身涂层，双垂尾，类似F117A,但J20的垂尾是可以转动的。DSI进气口分居两侧，避免机底过于隆起。独立鸭翼，似乎可以全向转动。一体式滑降伞，双腹鳍，各个可转向的副鳍应该都是由一个独立系统来控制。有风速杆，一体式座舱，垂尾鳍上有红五星字样。前面是双轮主起落架，后面两个单轮副起落架。鉴定完毕。

2010年12月25日，10:48

Erwinhans

Nothing was showed in that pic.

But what about this?

真是奇怪的照片，UP主表示什么也不知道 （这是当时最新公布的清晰谍照-----译者注）



25th December 2010, 12:26  
visitant  

wow, a clear one come out. Although the whole proportion seems not right for obviously missing some part of the original photo, and some details may be purposefully PSed, but it's definite the most reliable photo upto now.

LOL, finally got why someone describe the fins are F35 style, while others say it's similar to F117.

我去，高清无码终于流出来了，虽然比例不是很正确，也还缺少一些部分，还有些细节被故意隐瞒了，但这已经是最靠谱的照片了。
呵呵，终于知道为什么有人说尾鳍像F35了。当然，你也可以说它像F117。
25th December 2010, 16:07  
GoldenDragon

I think if we looked at the J-10 and FC-1 threads in years past, we would find similar numbers.

For all its mystery, China has been like clockwork with its fighters projects in the past decade. Every five years or so you'll first get rumors, then hints and finally full pictures of aircraft.

Sites like AFM and CDF have been become a default platform to watch these events.

我想如果我们回顾一下J10和FC1的历程，我们不难发现相似之处。

在过去十年里，中国从来都在暗中进行着他们的战斗机计划，掩盖的非常好，直到进行了一段时间你才能听到留言，然后是疑似图，最终才是完整的图片和实物。

现在我们已经习惯于从AFM和CDF这两个论坛上得到相关的信息了（多谢hijjjj指正）




25th December 2010, 16:48  
foxmulder

"rumors" turned out to be quite true...

“谣言”居然这么准？（这个帖子两个星期前就开了，应该是得到了相关的情报-----译者注）

25th December 2010, 15:34  
kursed

There are over 700 guests watching this thread, right now. Wow! This seems to have captured just about everyone's imagination. Can't wait for more pictures to come out, this is turning out to be one fine end of the year.
哇奥，现在居然有700多个人在关注这个帖子，这简直出乎所有人的意料，即使没有更多的图片出来，这个岁末也够给力的了

25th December 2010, 17:13  
Pinko

Ya, that’s really one memorable moment when we saw so many ppl viewing this thread at the same time. A miracle happened on Christmas

不会吧。居然这么多人在看直播，太猛了。我发自肺腑的想说：来吧，圣诞节，这是见证奇迹的时刻!

26th December 2010, 06:00  
KYL

I don't want to enter another debate regarding the existence of a fighter, but I hope this time any discussion would base on facts and emphasize objective reasoning not subjective opinions with bias. Even though the existence of J20 is far from conclusive, the people who ask why are all these pictures are tiny have selectively ignored the fundamental facts about China. Unless these photos are released from the blessing of official government, people who released these photos are taking enormous risk because of the uncertainty over national security law. Other issues such as PS, mock ups, and fake photos should be good points to make over the debate. We still have long journey to go before reaching the consensus over J20's existence.

对于J20，我不想争辩什么，不过我还是希望我们的讨论能够基于客观的事实及合理的，没有偏见的推理，为什么讨论这些照片的人都有意无意的忽视了一个看上去微不足道的基本事实呢------毕竟它是来自中国的，除非官方公开宣布，否则公开这些照片的人们不是会遇到不可预知的风险吗？如果这是PS的，模拟的，或者假照片，那也说不定啊，反正关于于J20 ，看来我们要达成共识还需要一个过程。

26th December 2010, 15:39  
KYL
We not only have "fency party". I guess it won't be long before some good quality pictures appear.
好吧。我确信我们不仅有卧草党。。。。。应该马上就有更清晰的图片了。



26th December 2010, 21:11  
Multirole

I'm rather surprised by the dihedral canards and anhedral wings. That doesn't seem ideal for radar stealth.
真是奇怪。留着个鸭翼，难道是给对方雷达(发现自己)准备的？

26th December 2010, 23:03  
Sign

thats a myth i would say. (an added angle thou, which is not good), also depending on materials..overlap would also be bad.
A close coupled canard often designed this way, for added canard vortex lift (tip of the canard is a level over the mainwing)

依我看这可未必，鸭翼是增大反射面积，但也得看用的什么材料，而且鸭式布局的最大好处是能增加机动能力。





虽然看上跟F22差不多“厚”，但我敢说从其他角度看的话，这飞机一定酷毙了，至少比现在所有的五代机要好看。

27th December 2010, 04:49  
Wanderlei

so, if this is all genuine... figure by 2015 China should have 100-200 of these birds in service, plus more advanced version in works. How many Su-50s will Russia have in service by then?

我觉得中国到2015年得能装备100-200架了。说不定还有改进版，你们说那时俄罗斯的T50能装多少?

27th December 2010, 06:18  
Rajan

At least 500. If China can manage to have 2015 than Russia can have more than 500.

如果中国能造100-200架,那么俄罗斯至少能造500架  （多谢realjojo指正）


Also, everyone has to compromise some aspect of aerodynamics for stealth. Its a question of compromises. The PAKFA also reflects that but should be able to carry a decent payload but not an extraordinary one, but to a decent range. Its like the next generation of the Flanker, with better supersonic performance & BVR capability, with stealth & advanced avionics.

This J-20 aircraft really looks huge to me, and appears thicker than a casual comparison to the F-23. The aircraft will really need powerful engines, and I think Russia has a good thing going, with 117S to China, while it develops the next one for the definitive PAKFA. I do think the PRC will continue to rely on the 117S as they did with the J-10, for the first 100-150 odd airframes.

Another thing is if the fanart posted by Hotdog is correct, then planform alignment is apparently out of the window, reducing effectiveness for stealth.

I'd also wager the avionics on this aircraft won't be as advanced as those on the PAKFA, but they should still allow for quite decent capability, more than those on the existing J-10.

Overall, if this aircraft is really as big as it appears to be, then its like a reduced RCS F-105 Thunderchief. This is one big plane. May not be so agile or maneuverable as other 5G designs, but it should have a good top speed, and will have some really impressive range & payload. That may be actually a result of the priorities handed down by the PLAAF to the CAC designers. Which means China wants a plane that can range far with a good payload, and stay on patrol for a while. Japan, ROC, wonder which theater is affected most.


每个人都在讨论隐身性能，其实隐身和性能，本身就是一个矛盾，战斗机需要足够的有效载荷，而不是看上去多么好看，PAKFA就反映了这个问题，作为苏27侧卫的换代机，他选择了更好的超音速性能和超视距攻击能力。然后在这个基础上兼顾了隐身和航电装备。

J20看起来真是够大的。比F23还厚，不过这就需要它配有足够强大的发动机，我认为俄罗斯会继续出口117S到中国。别忘了TG还有着100多架J10战斗机也等着用呢。

还有一件事是，如果FANART的图是正确的，那看上去座舱盖并不是一体的，这会严重影响隐身效果的。

我还打赌J20的电子设备没有T50先进，当然，比J10强那是肯定的。

总之，如果这个飞机真的有看上去这么大，那它倒真像是一个减少了雷达反射面积的F105了，虽然因为体积过大让它降低了灵活和可操作性，但它高速，大作战半径，高有效载荷的特点，应该就是PLA空军对设计者提出的要求，因为中国需要这么一架飞机，飞得高，跑得快，并且可以带着一身的炸弹在敌人头上徘徊，久久不愿离去。到那个时候，日本和台湾，不知道谁的头皮会更麻点呢？