超级军网美军讲评印度苏30参加红旗军演的情况
来源：百度文库 编辑：超级军网 时间：2024/04/20 17:25:42
最近传出来的录像，分两部份
http://www.megashare.com/518704
http://www.megashare.com/518707
该美军军官对SU30MKI的评价高过很多红裤衩：格斗能力超过F15/F16，雷达和航电好过老式F15/F16（这里的理解可能会有歧义），电子干扰系统有能力让美军的导弹失效从而不得不进入格斗。
问题方面，印度飞行员经验不足（不是上次军演的30老飞），没有认识到TVC适量发动机的弱点，急于启动矢量状态造成能量损失，拱手将格斗优势让给美军，被美军点杀了不少次。另外他认为30的雷达虽然也是相控阵，但目标捕获能力不行。此外，30的发动机防异物能力不行，每个起飞架次间要间隔1分钟，影响效率。
法国人也派阵风参加了军演，但该军官认为法国人十分狡猾，总是紧跟在30旁边收集资料，然后自己送死了事，不认真参演。
该人也评了F22。
这里是有心人的笔录：
You have lot of questions on the Su-30MKI - big aircraft, huge aircraft etc.
(Some bits about an F-22 and Su30 composite video on youtube and how both appear identical but this is only for airshows etc)
Coming to aircraft capabilities, the Sukhoi 30 with its avionics, radar , weapons compares well with our legacy fighters, the F-15 and F-16. The Sukhoi is a tad bit better (holds arm at chest level, and the other arm signifying the Sukhoi a wee bit higher). But now compare with the F-225 raptor, the raptor is here. (holds palm way above his head - signifying that the aircraft is much better).
The Sukhoi engines (i believe he called them Tumansky? ) are very vulnerable to FOD. The Indians asked for a 1 minute spacing between take offs - with nearly 50-60 aircraft supposed to take off in a ___ who will wait one minute between each take off to launch these six aircraft, c'mon, you can go elsewhere.. but what we did was launch their aircraft ahead, since they had enough gas fuel, they would go and wait / orbit ahead and the rest would join up.
The engines were particularly ... what would happen is that the FOD damaged engines would have to be flown to russia for overhaul and the Indians sitting all the way here, it wasnt particulary...
Now coming to the aircombat. You know the story of Cope India and how our F-15s went there for the exercise at the Indian Nellis. Our aircraft were a regular unit while they had the most experienced pilots on the Sukhoi-30s there. ours were a mix of 80-20 - 80 percent with low experience, less than 500 hours on the F-15, the remaining 20 were fairly experienced but they came back from a staff appointment but they had experience. The Indian pilots came from MiG-21 Bison units. the MiG-21 bison, as you know is based on the Mig from the Vietnam war era, but upgraded with an Israeli radar, Israeli jammer, active homing missile etc. the small RCS of the MiG-21 with the Israeli jammer would make them invisible to radar... mean they could close in on our legacy fighters and engage in aircombat.
anyway at Cope India, we held our own, but the Indians went to town thumping their chests - they said we shot them down more times than they shot us down - which was true.
Now here at Red Flag, the Sukhoi unit that they sent was a regular operational unit - had a mix of 50-50 (experienced and inexperienced). They had come off MiG-21s and worked... Well what happened was after the first two to three days of operations, you know exchanging patches and all, we went up in 1 vs 1 combat.
The Sukhoi has thrust vectoring engines. the pilot has to engage a swtich on the stick to engage the TVc nozzles on the engine. We had enough experience with the F-22. which has up/down TVC nozzles. What would happen is that the in a merge with the F-22, you would be pulling in scissor fight hoping you would get the F-22 in your sights (laughs ). The F22 can sustain a turn rate of 26-28 deg per second while the F-15 can get an instantaneous rate of 22 and a sustained rate of 16-17. So you are pulling and hoping.
Now from our experience, the only way you would get the F-22. and the only way - this happens only if there is an inexperienced pilot because the experienced ones never make the mistake. is that he wants more than 26-28 sustained turn rate and pulls tighter. the TVC pushes the aircraft into post stall and the ass end drops. the aircraft then instead of turning goes vertical. This is where the F-15 pilot would pull up vertical, switch to guns, then come down and take a shot at the F-22. Of course you have to first get in close to do this. most probably the F-22 will kill you before that.
the Sukhoi has TVC in a V (hand gesture) . This was with an F-15 in regular configuration, missiles under wings , drop tanks with fuel in them. The Sukhoi was clean with the exception of one wing station which ahd the ACMI pod. So in the mege, with all the frantic manuevering in trying to merge. The sukhoi can do 22 deg in a sustained turn rate. The TVC would kick in and push the aircraft in this direction when the pilot engages the switch on the stick. All this is formidable on paper but what you would know is that with the TVC kicking in, its a huge aircraft, and thrusting such a huge aircraft in that direction creates a lot of drag. So in the fight the aircraft would go into a post stall TVC maneuver, the ass end drops and instead of going up, it just drops in mid air. The F-15 wouldn't even have to pull up. slight pull up on the stick, engage guns, come down and drill his brains out.
The Indians were astonished. We were amazed. After three to four days of `1vs1, they said, okay we had enough of this lets get back to the regular operations. While at Cope India , all the Indians wanted to do was just 1 vs 1 (laughs!)
Part 2
One thing about the IAF - they were a professional lot and they were very strict about the rules of the flying area. during their stay they made zero mistakes -/ errors about the flying area and that was incredible. we had other expectations but they were quite good.
The french usually came with Mirage 2000 dash 6, but the moment they knew the Indians were getting the Sukhois they decided to send the Rafales. their latest, advanced...
Now what the french would do, they would fly many missions with the Indians, the IAF would lead would shoot or get shot, then the french would shoot (implying from a distance) and turn back. They were just listening around, soaking up all the electronic traffic and ... (Snooping around in short) (talks about coalition setting up air cover, french would just send a patrol up, listen in , snoope in and then also say - "we participated as well"
The Koreans bought in their brand new F-15Ks. beautiful aircraft, with AESA radar and all. but they had less than 50 hours on it (this type and these were straight from the factory had zero hours on them) and they were still learning the aircraft. so it did not have any significant impact.
The IAF was also very serious about another thing. They killed a lot of friendlies. You know what was happening is that they didn't have the datalink with the Awacs Big internet data links. Russian made data links no computer link - the Koreans, the French and us could see the complete picture on the HUD, but the IAF had to ask the AWACS. they would ask about a target ahead, "Contact on my nose 22 miles, friendly or hostile?" Awacs would say "No hostile within 40 miles of you" then "Fox2." (laughs/audience laughs) The first two days they got hit bad, they were getting shot down while waiting for answers so they decided to kill the other guy fast without knowing.. better you die than me. But they took the fratricides very seriously.
Something about the French and "God Forbd we have to (fight with them)"
Red Flag Alaska (PACOM??): This is different from Red Flag Nellis. This where we exercise for friendship building. Most countries that fly there are in a conflict with each other. While in Red Flag Nellis we usually fly with coaltions partners. The Indians really wanted to participate in Red Flag Nellis.
Some comments on the Bison followed
There was a question of PESA and AESA. he clarified something on that.
FIRST QUESTION: "What do you think about the Su-30's Radar range?" Answer: It's a PESA not an AESA. Not active but passive. PESA is good but ends up having more technical problems finding the bad guy最近传出来的录像，分两部份
http://www.megashare.com/518704
http://www.megashare.com/518707
该美军军官对SU30MKI的评价高过很多红裤衩：格斗能力超过F15/F16，雷达和航电好过老式F15/F16（这里的理解可能会有歧义），电子干扰系统有能力让美军的导弹失效从而不得不进入格斗。
问题方面，印度飞行员经验不足（不是上次军演的30老飞），没有认识到TVC适量发动机的弱点，急于启动矢量状态造成能量损失，拱手将格斗优势让给美军，被美军点杀了不少次。另外他认为30的雷达虽然也是相控阵，但目标捕获能力不行。此外，30的发动机防异物能力不行，每个起飞架次间要间隔1分钟，影响效率。
法国人也派阵风参加了军演，但该军官认为法国人十分狡猾，总是紧跟在30旁边收集资料，然后自己送死了事，不认真参演。
该人也评了F22。
这里是有心人的笔录：
You have lot of questions on the Su-30MKI - big aircraft, huge aircraft etc.
(Some bits about an F-22 and Su30 composite video on youtube and how both appear identical but this is only for airshows etc)
Coming to aircraft capabilities, the Sukhoi 30 with its avionics, radar , weapons compares well with our legacy fighters, the F-15 and F-16. The Sukhoi is a tad bit better (holds arm at chest level, and the other arm signifying the Sukhoi a wee bit higher). But now compare with the F-225 raptor, the raptor is here. (holds palm way above his head - signifying that the aircraft is much better).
The Sukhoi engines (i believe he called them Tumansky? ) are very vulnerable to FOD. The Indians asked for a 1 minute spacing between take offs - with nearly 50-60 aircraft supposed to take off in a ___ who will wait one minute between each take off to launch these six aircraft, c'mon, you can go elsewhere.. but what we did was launch their aircraft ahead, since they had enough gas fuel, they would go and wait / orbit ahead and the rest would join up.
The engines were particularly ... what would happen is that the FOD damaged engines would have to be flown to russia for overhaul and the Indians sitting all the way here, it wasnt particulary...
Now coming to the aircombat. You know the story of Cope India and how our F-15s went there for the exercise at the Indian Nellis. Our aircraft were a regular unit while they had the most experienced pilots on the Sukhoi-30s there. ours were a mix of 80-20 - 80 percent with low experience, less than 500 hours on the F-15, the remaining 20 were fairly experienced but they came back from a staff appointment but they had experience. The Indian pilots came from MiG-21 Bison units. the MiG-21 bison, as you know is based on the Mig from the Vietnam war era, but upgraded with an Israeli radar, Israeli jammer, active homing missile etc. the small RCS of the MiG-21 with the Israeli jammer would make them invisible to radar... mean they could close in on our legacy fighters and engage in aircombat.
anyway at Cope India, we held our own, but the Indians went to town thumping their chests - they said we shot them down more times than they shot us down - which was true.
Now here at Red Flag, the Sukhoi unit that they sent was a regular operational unit - had a mix of 50-50 (experienced and inexperienced). They had come off MiG-21s and worked... Well what happened was after the first two to three days of operations, you know exchanging patches and all, we went up in 1 vs 1 combat.
The Sukhoi has thrust vectoring engines. the pilot has to engage a swtich on the stick to engage the TVc nozzles on the engine. We had enough experience with the F-22. which has up/down TVC nozzles. What would happen is that the in a merge with the F-22, you would be pulling in scissor fight hoping you would get the F-22 in your sights (laughs ). The F22 can sustain a turn rate of 26-28 deg per second while the F-15 can get an instantaneous rate of 22 and a sustained rate of 16-17. So you are pulling and hoping.
Now from our experience, the only way you would get the F-22. and the only way - this happens only if there is an inexperienced pilot because the experienced ones never make the mistake. is that he wants more than 26-28 sustained turn rate and pulls tighter. the TVC pushes the aircraft into post stall and the ass end drops. the aircraft then instead of turning goes vertical. This is where the F-15 pilot would pull up vertical, switch to guns, then come down and take a shot at the F-22. Of course you have to first get in close to do this. most probably the F-22 will kill you before that.
the Sukhoi has TVC in a V (hand gesture) . This was with an F-15 in regular configuration, missiles under wings , drop tanks with fuel in them. The Sukhoi was clean with the exception of one wing station which ahd the ACMI pod. So in the mege, with all the frantic manuevering in trying to merge. The sukhoi can do 22 deg in a sustained turn rate. The TVC would kick in and push the aircraft in this direction when the pilot engages the switch on the stick. All this is formidable on paper but what you would know is that with the TVC kicking in, its a huge aircraft, and thrusting such a huge aircraft in that direction creates a lot of drag. So in the fight the aircraft would go into a post stall TVC maneuver, the ass end drops and instead of going up, it just drops in mid air. The F-15 wouldn't even have to pull up. slight pull up on the stick, engage guns, come down and drill his brains out.
The Indians were astonished. We were amazed. After three to four days of `1vs1, they said, okay we had enough of this lets get back to the regular operations. While at Cope India , all the Indians wanted to do was just 1 vs 1 (laughs!)
Part 2
One thing about the IAF - they were a professional lot and they were very strict about the rules of the flying area. during their stay they made zero mistakes -/ errors about the flying area and that was incredible. we had other expectations but they were quite good.
The french usually came with Mirage 2000 dash 6, but the moment they knew the Indians were getting the Sukhois they decided to send the Rafales. their latest, advanced...
Now what the french would do, they would fly many missions with the Indians, the IAF would lead would shoot or get shot, then the french would shoot (implying from a distance) and turn back. They were just listening around, soaking up all the electronic traffic and ... (Snooping around in short) (talks about coalition setting up air cover, french would just send a patrol up, listen in , snoope in and then also say - "we participated as well"
The Koreans bought in their brand new F-15Ks. beautiful aircraft, with AESA radar and all. but they had less than 50 hours on it (this type and these were straight from the factory had zero hours on them) and they were still learning the aircraft. so it did not have any significant impact.
The IAF was also very serious about another thing. They killed a lot of friendlies. You know what was happening is that they didn't have the datalink with the Awacs Big internet data links. Russian made data links no computer link - the Koreans, the French and us could see the complete picture on the HUD, but the IAF had to ask the AWACS. they would ask about a target ahead, "Contact on my nose 22 miles, friendly or hostile?" Awacs would say "No hostile within 40 miles of you" then "Fox2." (laughs/audience laughs) The first two days they got hit bad, they were getting shot down while waiting for answers so they decided to kill the other guy fast without knowing.. better you die than me. But they took the fratricides very seriously.
Something about the French and "God Forbd we have to (fight with them)"
Red Flag Alaska (PACOM??): This is different from Red Flag Nellis. This where we exercise for friendship building. Most countries that fly there are in a conflict with each other. While in Red Flag Nellis we usually fly with coaltions partners. The Indians really wanted to participate in Red Flag Nellis.
Some comments on the Bison followed
There was a question of PESA and AESA. he clarified something on that.
FIRST QUESTION: "What do you think about the Su-30's Radar range?" Answer: It's a PESA not an AESA. Not active but passive. PESA is good but ends up having more technical problems finding the bad guy
http://www.megashare.com/518704
http://www.megashare.com/518707
该美军军官对SU30MKI的评价高过很多红裤衩：格斗能力超过F15/F16，雷达和航电好过老式F15/F16（这里的理解可能会有歧义），电子干扰系统有能力让美军的导弹失效从而不得不进入格斗。
问题方面，印度飞行员经验不足（不是上次军演的30老飞），没有认识到TVC适量发动机的弱点，急于启动矢量状态造成能量损失，拱手将格斗优势让给美军，被美军点杀了不少次。另外他认为30的雷达虽然也是相控阵，但目标捕获能力不行。此外，30的发动机防异物能力不行，每个起飞架次间要间隔1分钟，影响效率。
法国人也派阵风参加了军演，但该军官认为法国人十分狡猾，总是紧跟在30旁边收集资料，然后自己送死了事，不认真参演。
该人也评了F22。
这里是有心人的笔录：
You have lot of questions on the Su-30MKI - big aircraft, huge aircraft etc.
(Some bits about an F-22 and Su30 composite video on youtube and how both appear identical but this is only for airshows etc)
Coming to aircraft capabilities, the Sukhoi 30 with its avionics, radar , weapons compares well with our legacy fighters, the F-15 and F-16. The Sukhoi is a tad bit better (holds arm at chest level, and the other arm signifying the Sukhoi a wee bit higher). But now compare with the F-225 raptor, the raptor is here. (holds palm way above his head - signifying that the aircraft is much better).
The Sukhoi engines (i believe he called them Tumansky? ) are very vulnerable to FOD. The Indians asked for a 1 minute spacing between take offs - with nearly 50-60 aircraft supposed to take off in a ___ who will wait one minute between each take off to launch these six aircraft, c'mon, you can go elsewhere.. but what we did was launch their aircraft ahead, since they had enough gas fuel, they would go and wait / orbit ahead and the rest would join up.
The engines were particularly ... what would happen is that the FOD damaged engines would have to be flown to russia for overhaul and the Indians sitting all the way here, it wasnt particulary...
Now coming to the aircombat. You know the story of Cope India and how our F-15s went there for the exercise at the Indian Nellis. Our aircraft were a regular unit while they had the most experienced pilots on the Sukhoi-30s there. ours were a mix of 80-20 - 80 percent with low experience, less than 500 hours on the F-15, the remaining 20 were fairly experienced but they came back from a staff appointment but they had experience. The Indian pilots came from MiG-21 Bison units. the MiG-21 bison, as you know is based on the Mig from the Vietnam war era, but upgraded with an Israeli radar, Israeli jammer, active homing missile etc. the small RCS of the MiG-21 with the Israeli jammer would make them invisible to radar... mean they could close in on our legacy fighters and engage in aircombat.
anyway at Cope India, we held our own, but the Indians went to town thumping their chests - they said we shot them down more times than they shot us down - which was true.
Now here at Red Flag, the Sukhoi unit that they sent was a regular operational unit - had a mix of 50-50 (experienced and inexperienced). They had come off MiG-21s and worked... Well what happened was after the first two to three days of operations, you know exchanging patches and all, we went up in 1 vs 1 combat.
The Sukhoi has thrust vectoring engines. the pilot has to engage a swtich on the stick to engage the TVc nozzles on the engine. We had enough experience with the F-22. which has up/down TVC nozzles. What would happen is that the in a merge with the F-22, you would be pulling in scissor fight hoping you would get the F-22 in your sights (laughs ). The F22 can sustain a turn rate of 26-28 deg per second while the F-15 can get an instantaneous rate of 22 and a sustained rate of 16-17. So you are pulling and hoping.
Now from our experience, the only way you would get the F-22. and the only way - this happens only if there is an inexperienced pilot because the experienced ones never make the mistake. is that he wants more than 26-28 sustained turn rate and pulls tighter. the TVC pushes the aircraft into post stall and the ass end drops. the aircraft then instead of turning goes vertical. This is where the F-15 pilot would pull up vertical, switch to guns, then come down and take a shot at the F-22. Of course you have to first get in close to do this. most probably the F-22 will kill you before that.
the Sukhoi has TVC in a V (hand gesture) . This was with an F-15 in regular configuration, missiles under wings , drop tanks with fuel in them. The Sukhoi was clean with the exception of one wing station which ahd the ACMI pod. So in the mege, with all the frantic manuevering in trying to merge. The sukhoi can do 22 deg in a sustained turn rate. The TVC would kick in and push the aircraft in this direction when the pilot engages the switch on the stick. All this is formidable on paper but what you would know is that with the TVC kicking in, its a huge aircraft, and thrusting such a huge aircraft in that direction creates a lot of drag. So in the fight the aircraft would go into a post stall TVC maneuver, the ass end drops and instead of going up, it just drops in mid air. The F-15 wouldn't even have to pull up. slight pull up on the stick, engage guns, come down and drill his brains out.
The Indians were astonished. We were amazed. After three to four days of `1vs1, they said, okay we had enough of this lets get back to the regular operations. While at Cope India , all the Indians wanted to do was just 1 vs 1 (laughs!)
Part 2
One thing about the IAF - they were a professional lot and they were very strict about the rules of the flying area. during their stay they made zero mistakes -/ errors about the flying area and that was incredible. we had other expectations but they were quite good.
The french usually came with Mirage 2000 dash 6, but the moment they knew the Indians were getting the Sukhois they decided to send the Rafales. their latest, advanced...
Now what the french would do, they would fly many missions with the Indians, the IAF would lead would shoot or get shot, then the french would shoot (implying from a distance) and turn back. They were just listening around, soaking up all the electronic traffic and ... (Snooping around in short) (talks about coalition setting up air cover, french would just send a patrol up, listen in , snoope in and then also say - "we participated as well"
The Koreans bought in their brand new F-15Ks. beautiful aircraft, with AESA radar and all. but they had less than 50 hours on it (this type and these were straight from the factory had zero hours on them) and they were still learning the aircraft. so it did not have any significant impact.
The IAF was also very serious about another thing. They killed a lot of friendlies. You know what was happening is that they didn't have the datalink with the Awacs Big internet data links. Russian made data links no computer link - the Koreans, the French and us could see the complete picture on the HUD, but the IAF had to ask the AWACS. they would ask about a target ahead, "Contact on my nose 22 miles, friendly or hostile?" Awacs would say "No hostile within 40 miles of you" then "Fox2." (laughs/audience laughs) The first two days they got hit bad, they were getting shot down while waiting for answers so they decided to kill the other guy fast without knowing.. better you die than me. But they took the fratricides very seriously.
Something about the French and "God Forbd we have to (fight with them)"
Red Flag Alaska (PACOM??): This is different from Red Flag Nellis. This where we exercise for friendship building. Most countries that fly there are in a conflict with each other. While in Red Flag Nellis we usually fly with coaltions partners. The Indians really wanted to participate in Red Flag Nellis.
Some comments on the Bison followed
There was a question of PESA and AESA. he clarified something on that.
FIRST QUESTION: "What do you think about the Su-30's Radar range?" Answer: It's a PESA not an AESA. Not active but passive. PESA is good but ends up having more technical problems finding the bad guy最近传出来的录像，分两部份
http://www.megashare.com/518704
http://www.megashare.com/518707
该美军军官对SU30MKI的评价高过很多红裤衩：格斗能力超过F15/F16，雷达和航电好过老式F15/F16（这里的理解可能会有歧义），电子干扰系统有能力让美军的导弹失效从而不得不进入格斗。
问题方面，印度飞行员经验不足（不是上次军演的30老飞），没有认识到TVC适量发动机的弱点，急于启动矢量状态造成能量损失，拱手将格斗优势让给美军，被美军点杀了不少次。另外他认为30的雷达虽然也是相控阵，但目标捕获能力不行。此外，30的发动机防异物能力不行，每个起飞架次间要间隔1分钟，影响效率。
法国人也派阵风参加了军演，但该军官认为法国人十分狡猾，总是紧跟在30旁边收集资料，然后自己送死了事，不认真参演。
该人也评了F22。
这里是有心人的笔录：
You have lot of questions on the Su-30MKI - big aircraft, huge aircraft etc.
(Some bits about an F-22 and Su30 composite video on youtube and how both appear identical but this is only for airshows etc)
Coming to aircraft capabilities, the Sukhoi 30 with its avionics, radar , weapons compares well with our legacy fighters, the F-15 and F-16. The Sukhoi is a tad bit better (holds arm at chest level, and the other arm signifying the Sukhoi a wee bit higher). But now compare with the F-225 raptor, the raptor is here. (holds palm way above his head - signifying that the aircraft is much better).
The Sukhoi engines (i believe he called them Tumansky? ) are very vulnerable to FOD. The Indians asked for a 1 minute spacing between take offs - with nearly 50-60 aircraft supposed to take off in a ___ who will wait one minute between each take off to launch these six aircraft, c'mon, you can go elsewhere.. but what we did was launch their aircraft ahead, since they had enough gas fuel, they would go and wait / orbit ahead and the rest would join up.
The engines were particularly ... what would happen is that the FOD damaged engines would have to be flown to russia for overhaul and the Indians sitting all the way here, it wasnt particulary...
Now coming to the aircombat. You know the story of Cope India and how our F-15s went there for the exercise at the Indian Nellis. Our aircraft were a regular unit while they had the most experienced pilots on the Sukhoi-30s there. ours were a mix of 80-20 - 80 percent with low experience, less than 500 hours on the F-15, the remaining 20 were fairly experienced but they came back from a staff appointment but they had experience. The Indian pilots came from MiG-21 Bison units. the MiG-21 bison, as you know is based on the Mig from the Vietnam war era, but upgraded with an Israeli radar, Israeli jammer, active homing missile etc. the small RCS of the MiG-21 with the Israeli jammer would make them invisible to radar... mean they could close in on our legacy fighters and engage in aircombat.
anyway at Cope India, we held our own, but the Indians went to town thumping their chests - they said we shot them down more times than they shot us down - which was true.
Now here at Red Flag, the Sukhoi unit that they sent was a regular operational unit - had a mix of 50-50 (experienced and inexperienced). They had come off MiG-21s and worked... Well what happened was after the first two to three days of operations, you know exchanging patches and all, we went up in 1 vs 1 combat.
The Sukhoi has thrust vectoring engines. the pilot has to engage a swtich on the stick to engage the TVc nozzles on the engine. We had enough experience with the F-22. which has up/down TVC nozzles. What would happen is that the in a merge with the F-22, you would be pulling in scissor fight hoping you would get the F-22 in your sights (laughs ). The F22 can sustain a turn rate of 26-28 deg per second while the F-15 can get an instantaneous rate of 22 and a sustained rate of 16-17. So you are pulling and hoping.
Now from our experience, the only way you would get the F-22. and the only way - this happens only if there is an inexperienced pilot because the experienced ones never make the mistake. is that he wants more than 26-28 sustained turn rate and pulls tighter. the TVC pushes the aircraft into post stall and the ass end drops. the aircraft then instead of turning goes vertical. This is where the F-15 pilot would pull up vertical, switch to guns, then come down and take a shot at the F-22. Of course you have to first get in close to do this. most probably the F-22 will kill you before that.
the Sukhoi has TVC in a V (hand gesture) . This was with an F-15 in regular configuration, missiles under wings , drop tanks with fuel in them. The Sukhoi was clean with the exception of one wing station which ahd the ACMI pod. So in the mege, with all the frantic manuevering in trying to merge. The sukhoi can do 22 deg in a sustained turn rate. The TVC would kick in and push the aircraft in this direction when the pilot engages the switch on the stick. All this is formidable on paper but what you would know is that with the TVC kicking in, its a huge aircraft, and thrusting such a huge aircraft in that direction creates a lot of drag. So in the fight the aircraft would go into a post stall TVC maneuver, the ass end drops and instead of going up, it just drops in mid air. The F-15 wouldn't even have to pull up. slight pull up on the stick, engage guns, come down and drill his brains out.
The Indians were astonished. We were amazed. After three to four days of `1vs1, they said, okay we had enough of this lets get back to the regular operations. While at Cope India , all the Indians wanted to do was just 1 vs 1 (laughs!)
Part 2
One thing about the IAF - they were a professional lot and they were very strict about the rules of the flying area. during their stay they made zero mistakes -/ errors about the flying area and that was incredible. we had other expectations but they were quite good.
The french usually came with Mirage 2000 dash 6, but the moment they knew the Indians were getting the Sukhois they decided to send the Rafales. their latest, advanced...
Now what the french would do, they would fly many missions with the Indians, the IAF would lead would shoot or get shot, then the french would shoot (implying from a distance) and turn back. They were just listening around, soaking up all the electronic traffic and ... (Snooping around in short) (talks about coalition setting up air cover, french would just send a patrol up, listen in , snoope in and then also say - "we participated as well"
The Koreans bought in their brand new F-15Ks. beautiful aircraft, with AESA radar and all. but they had less than 50 hours on it (this type and these were straight from the factory had zero hours on them) and they were still learning the aircraft. so it did not have any significant impact.
The IAF was also very serious about another thing. They killed a lot of friendlies. You know what was happening is that they didn't have the datalink with the Awacs Big internet data links. Russian made data links no computer link - the Koreans, the French and us could see the complete picture on the HUD, but the IAF had to ask the AWACS. they would ask about a target ahead, "Contact on my nose 22 miles, friendly or hostile?" Awacs would say "No hostile within 40 miles of you" then "Fox2." (laughs/audience laughs) The first two days they got hit bad, they were getting shot down while waiting for answers so they decided to kill the other guy fast without knowing.. better you die than me. But they took the fratricides very seriously.
Something about the French and "God Forbd we have to (fight with them)"
Red Flag Alaska (PACOM??): This is different from Red Flag Nellis. This where we exercise for friendship building. Most countries that fly there are in a conflict with each other. While in Red Flag Nellis we usually fly with coaltions partners. The Indians really wanted to participate in Red Flag Nellis.
Some comments on the Bison followed
There was a question of PESA and AESA. he clarified something on that.
FIRST QUESTION: "What do you think about the Su-30's Radar range?" Answer: It's a PESA not an AESA. Not active but passive. PESA is good but ends up having more technical problems finding the bad guy
另外给两个链接
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRIr2ak2IM0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBEfUUoUC4k
据说这只是该军官讲评的两段，至少还有一段评论了歼10和歼11，但很快就被删掉了，据说很有意思。
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRIr2ak2IM0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBEfUUoUC4k
据说这只是该军官讲评的两段，至少还有一段评论了歼10和歼11，但很快就被删掉了，据说很有意思。
实在看得头大
The Indians asked for a 1 minute spacing between take offs - with nearly 50-60 aircraft supposed to take off in a ___ who will wait one minute between each take off to launch these six aircraft, c'mon, you can go elsewhere.. but what we did was launch their aircraft ahead, since they had enough gas fuel, they would go and wait / orbit ahead and the rest would join up
比较有意思 老美说话真直白
比较有意思 老美说话真直白
确实头大,翻译的来啊[:a2:]
我来翻一下那个简要笔录：
对苏30这个大飞机大家一定有很多问题。
说到飞机的能力，苏30的雷达，航电和武器方面与我们的老一代机（F15,F16)相比还是不错的，它要稍好一点（双手放在胸前演示）；但要比起我们的猛禽来，那猛禽就是这个水平（一只手放到头顶之上）
苏30的发动机对吸入异物很脆弱。印度人要求每个起飞架次间隔1分钟；50-60架飞机等着升空，谁能等他们那6架一分钟一架的起飞啊？靠，你还去其他地方飞吧。。。当然，我们采取的办法是让他们先升空，反正他们的飞机油多，他们可以先转圈等其他人。
它的发动机够特殊，吸入异物造成损坏的话，必须送回俄罗斯去大修，而印度人就在这儿一直坐着，真是很。。。
现在说说空战，你们应该知道上次印度合作（COPE INDIA)军演，我们的F15飞去印度纳勒斯参演的故事了。我们去的是个普通单位；他们派了他们最有经验的苏30，我们的是个80-20组合，百分之80是低经验的，在F15上500小时以下的，其他20%是较有经验的，但都是抽调的人手。印度方面还派了米格21比森。你们知道米格21是越战时期的，但是米格21比森型装了以色列雷达（被人笑话了），干扰器，主动制导导弹。米格21的小雷达反射面积和以色列的干扰系统让他们在雷达上成了隐形。。。换句话说他们可以接近我们的老式机并进入空战。
总之在印度合作军演上，我们打出了我们的精神面貌（笑一个）；而印度人就满世界拍胸脯，说他们把我们击落的次数更多，当然这样说也没错。
而这次红旗军演，他们派的苏30单位是个普通飞行单位，经验上大概是五五开，50-50。他们是仗着米格21上的经验，曾经有效。。。好了，过了开始的两三天，你们知道啦，比如交换臂章什么的，我们就开始1对1作战。
对苏30这个大飞机大家一定有很多问题。
说到飞机的能力，苏30的雷达，航电和武器方面与我们的老一代机（F15,F16)相比还是不错的，它要稍好一点（双手放在胸前演示）；但要比起我们的猛禽来，那猛禽就是这个水平（一只手放到头顶之上）
苏30的发动机对吸入异物很脆弱。印度人要求每个起飞架次间隔1分钟；50-60架飞机等着升空，谁能等他们那6架一分钟一架的起飞啊？靠，你还去其他地方飞吧。。。当然，我们采取的办法是让他们先升空，反正他们的飞机油多，他们可以先转圈等其他人。
它的发动机够特殊，吸入异物造成损坏的话，必须送回俄罗斯去大修，而印度人就在这儿一直坐着，真是很。。。
现在说说空战，你们应该知道上次印度合作（COPE INDIA)军演，我们的F15飞去印度纳勒斯参演的故事了。我们去的是个普通单位；他们派了他们最有经验的苏30，我们的是个80-20组合，百分之80是低经验的，在F15上500小时以下的，其他20%是较有经验的，但都是抽调的人手。印度方面还派了米格21比森。你们知道米格21是越战时期的，但是米格21比森型装了以色列雷达（被人笑话了），干扰器，主动制导导弹。米格21的小雷达反射面积和以色列的干扰系统让他们在雷达上成了隐形。。。换句话说他们可以接近我们的老式机并进入空战。
总之在印度合作军演上，我们打出了我们的精神面貌（笑一个）；而印度人就满世界拍胸脯，说他们把我们击落的次数更多，当然这样说也没错。
而这次红旗军演，他们派的苏30单位是个普通飞行单位，经验上大概是五五开，50-50。他们是仗着米格21上的经验，曾经有效。。。好了，过了开始的两三天，你们知道啦，比如交换臂章什么的，我们就开始1对1作战。
阿三赚了面子，老美赚了情报，双赢啊，只有我们亏了
原帖由 歼击机07 于 2008-11-7 12:51 发表
阿三赚了面子，老美赚了情报，双赢啊，只有我们亏了
[:a1:] [:a1:] 详细说说我们亏在哪了[:a1:]
]]
原帖由 babyblue 于 2008-11-7 13:01 发表
虧了面子。這對中國人來說太重要了。讓美國人來飛我們的飛機虧的難道是情報嗎?
我认为亏在中国也有30,印度人赚了面子,美国人赚了情报,中国人因为印度的BC也亏了情报:@
第二段
有一点，印度空军这帮人还是很专业的。他们对飞行守则和空域什么的是非常严格的。他们呆的这段时间没有出过任何差错，这很神。我们没有想到，他们相当不错。
法国人通常都是派幻影2000-6型来。但当他们知道印度人要派苏凯来后，他们决定派阵风，他们最新的，最先进的。。。。
法国人怎么搞呢，他们总和印度人非很多架次，让印度人在前面飞啊，打啊，给人揍啊，然后法国人呢也远远的打一下（手势）然后就跑了。他们就是在那里听呢，收集所有的电子信号。。。就像联军那里法国人也是这样，到处转一下，然后说“我们也参予了“。
韩国人把他们的新F15K飞来了，很漂亮的，带AESA雷达。不过他们只有不到50小时的飞行经验（这个型号的机子都是直接从厂里来的，几乎没飞过），他们还再学呢，所以他们没什么有意义的影响。
印度空军还对另一点很严肃。他们干掉了很多友军。是这么回事，他们和预警机没有数据链连接。俄罗斯人做的数据链不是和电脑直接连接的；韩国人，法国人和我们都能在平显上看到整个战场态势，但印度空军必须自己问预警机，问自己前面的目标情况。“前方22哩，目标敌或友？“，预警机就说“前方40哩无敌目标“，然后你就听见“黄鼠狼2只“（大笑）。演习的头两天他们被揍得够呛，他们还在等预警机回话的时候就被打下来了。所以他们就决定，不认识的就打了再说。。。你死好过我死。他们宰自己人一点不手软。
说起法国人啊，上帝保佑千万别让我们和他们一块作战。
（后面有些提问，我再看次录像再翻译）
有一个是问苏30的相控阵雷达的探测距离。
回答：那是个被动阵，不是主动的。被动的也不错，不过想找到坏蛋，技术上的毛病还很多。
有一点，印度空军这帮人还是很专业的。他们对飞行守则和空域什么的是非常严格的。他们呆的这段时间没有出过任何差错，这很神。我们没有想到，他们相当不错。
法国人通常都是派幻影2000-6型来。但当他们知道印度人要派苏凯来后，他们决定派阵风，他们最新的，最先进的。。。。
法国人怎么搞呢，他们总和印度人非很多架次，让印度人在前面飞啊，打啊，给人揍啊，然后法国人呢也远远的打一下（手势）然后就跑了。他们就是在那里听呢，收集所有的电子信号。。。就像联军那里法国人也是这样，到处转一下，然后说“我们也参予了“。
韩国人把他们的新F15K飞来了，很漂亮的，带AESA雷达。不过他们只有不到50小时的飞行经验（这个型号的机子都是直接从厂里来的，几乎没飞过），他们还再学呢，所以他们没什么有意义的影响。
印度空军还对另一点很严肃。他们干掉了很多友军。是这么回事，他们和预警机没有数据链连接。俄罗斯人做的数据链不是和电脑直接连接的；韩国人，法国人和我们都能在平显上看到整个战场态势，但印度空军必须自己问预警机，问自己前面的目标情况。“前方22哩，目标敌或友？“，预警机就说“前方40哩无敌目标“，然后你就听见“黄鼠狼2只“（大笑）。演习的头两天他们被揍得够呛，他们还在等预警机回话的时候就被打下来了。所以他们就决定，不认识的就打了再说。。。你死好过我死。他们宰自己人一点不手软。
说起法国人啊，上帝保佑千万别让我们和他们一块作战。
（后面有些提问，我再看次录像再翻译）
有一个是问苏30的相控阵雷达的探测距离。
回答：那是个被动阵，不是主动的。被动的也不错，不过想找到坏蛋，技术上的毛病还很多。
原帖由 wwu2142 于 2008-11-7 13:48 发表
第二段
有一点，印度空军这帮人还是很专业的。他们对飞行守则和空域什么的是非常严格的。他们呆的这段时间没有出过任何差错，这很神。我们没有想到，他们相当不错。
法国人通常都是派幻影2000-6型来。但当他们 ...
The Koreans bought in their brand new F-15Ks. beautiful aircraft, with AESA radar and all.
F-15K到现在还是AN/APG-63V1。没看到换装V3。
听记的果然效果要差一些，语法不当和拼写错误不少啊，诸如coalitions之类的笔误。还有那个mirage-2000-6是不是2000-5MK2？很少看到正式场合称呼这个。
他们和预警机没有数据链连接
和米囯的預警機？
和米囯的預警機？
原帖由 我立于高山之巅 于 2008-11-7 13:56 发表
The Koreans bought in their brand new F-15Ks. beautiful aircraft, with AESA radar and all.
F-15K到现在还是AN/APG-63V1。没看到换装V3。
那个军官是有点大嘴，他的意思好像是说韩国那几架不是从韩国过来的，是从生产厂过来的，几乎没飞过。所以我想，不排除是AESA
原帖由 我立于高山之巅 于 2008-11-7 14:05 发表
听记的果然效果要差一些，语法不当和拼写错误不少啊，诸如coalitions之类的笔误。还有那个mirage-2000-6是不是2000-5MK2？很少看到正式场合称呼这个。
的确，录像里的内容其实还更多，但听记真的不太容易。
我是很想找到他谈歼10和11的录像，不知道你有没有。
三哥和F22狗斗了？收集到隐身情报没？
"说起法国人啊，上帝保佑千万别让我们和他们一块作战。"
这话什么意思？？
这话什么意思？？
SU30的稳盘能到22这么高？16也就这个左右，比F15的16,17稳盘高太多了，有点怀疑，望科普
“苏30可以做22度稳盘”
这个确定没错？27打了几份鸡血也改不到这个程度吧？
这个确定没错？27打了几份鸡血也改不到这个程度吧？
越看月觉得这个SU30稳盘22度不可能，除非SU30的推比极大，才有可能
看来老毛子的系统整合还是赶老美差很远啊，不知tg改善的如何
说起法国人啊，上帝保佑千万别让我们和他们一块作战。
？？？？？何解？
另，这帖子应该加精华了。否则就是斑竹不作为。
？？？？？何解？
另，这帖子应该加精华了。否则就是斑竹不作为。
不错,见到SU-30MKI在菌演中的表现如何,虽然还不是全部,感谢LZ
法国人不靠谱啊，不出力，你的六点挂着一架法国飞机，可是他不一定什么时候就不在了，你想想这是什么感觉吧。
这句话挺好理解啊，就是说法国人偷懒，光出勤不干活，
原帖由 QBQ-maddogchen 于 2008-11-7 15:38 发表
说起法国人啊，上帝保佑千万别让我们和他们一块作战。
？？？？？何解？
另，这帖子应该加精华了。否则就是斑竹不作为。
:L 法国人确实挺靠不住。想起了阿根廷，想起了马岛战争。
原帖由 wuhangvvv 于 2008-11-7 15:12 发表
"说起法国人啊，上帝保佑千万别让我们和他们一块作战。"
这话什么意思？？
法国人也派阵风参加了军演，但该军官认为法国人十分狡猾，总是紧跟在30旁边收集资料，然后自己送死了事，不认真参演。
原帖由 wuhangvvv 于 2008-11-7 15:12 发表
"说起法国人啊，上帝保佑千万别让我们和他们一块作战。"
这话什么意思？？
不怕鬼一样的对手，就怕猪一样的队友……;P ;P ;P
应该是不怕神一样的对手，就怕猪一样的队友。无论打CS,WAR还是WOW。对这句话都深有体会。。。
对比27在东非胜29，也许有些东西没表面数据那么简单。
支持有人把这玩意全翻出来。
送朵花。:D
[:a15:] [:a15:] [:a15:]
送朵花。:D
[:a15:] [:a15:] [:a15:]
]]
只能问预警机敌人在哪儿??:o :o :o
这不欺负人嘛~:D
这不欺负人嘛~:D
阿三受益匪浅
印度空军还对另一点很严肃。他们干掉了很多友军。是这么回事，他们和预警机没有数据链连接。俄罗斯人做的数据链不是和电脑直接连接的；韩国人，法国人和我们都能在平显上看到整个战场态势，但印度空军必须自己问预警机，问自己前面的目标情况。“前方22哩，目标敌或友？“，预警机就说“前方40哩无敌目标“，然后你就听见“黄鼠狼2只“（大笑）。演习的头两天他们被揍得够呛，他们还在等预警机回话的时候就被打下来了。所以他们就决定，不认识的就打了再说。。。你死好过我死。他们宰自己人一点不手软。;P ;P ;P
;funk .....猪一样的队友～
我又看了以下两段录像，补充几点前面没提到的。（如果没听错的话，该军官应该是阿拉斯加F15部队的军官，参加过大量与F22对抗测试的工作）
1。该军官首先稍微介绍了一下苏30的情况,又拿网上的一段苏30MKI与F22的机动表演录像为引子，说虽然这种低速下的表演性机动看上去不比F22差多少，但实战起来会很不一样。
2。后来听众发问，一位问到：夏威夷国民卫队的柏林将军认为F15是美国最后一种格斗战机，他不认为F22在近战中很强
回答：他是这样说了，珀林将军，我不想选边站了。（笑，然后手指听众里的某人），上次我已经试过选布鲁斯将军那边了，我不想再选他那边了（听众都笑，有人说：没事，布鲁斯将军已经搞定了）。我这样说吧，猛禽是我们的下一代格斗战机。而原因是在电子干扰，电子干扰呢，猛禽扛的导弹就是不太够，事到临头，我们就不能不拿机炮杀人；而这会发生的，猛禽上有机炮，飞得快，也灵活，它能做到的。（手指听众）我知道飞F16的兄弟们会拿我这话开玩笑，你们不用跟我道歉；F16和15，如果不扛什么吊舱的话，也是相当好的格斗战机。所以呢，F16的50/60批次和猛禽都是很好的格斗战机，我们会需要他们的。记得我前面说的那个米格21比森吗，它不被注意的飞进来，小RCS，大电子干扰吊舱，最后一分钟才升空，主动弹刚出现，你的LWR,RWR就抓住它了，你就奇怪了，屎绝了，这是从哪里冒出来的，原来是那个小杂种，你要宰了它，这时你就要这种（格斗）能力了。
又问：那么F35呢？
回答：这样说吧，我们这次还是别说它了，（听众大笑，叫好）施奈德和我在422（猛禽的飞测单位）那里干得很久了，我们对他知道的太多，不过（F35）还是下次再说吧。
1。该军官首先稍微介绍了一下苏30的情况,又拿网上的一段苏30MKI与F22的机动表演录像为引子，说虽然这种低速下的表演性机动看上去不比F22差多少，但实战起来会很不一样。
2。后来听众发问，一位问到：夏威夷国民卫队的柏林将军认为F15是美国最后一种格斗战机，他不认为F22在近战中很强
回答：他是这样说了，珀林将军，我不想选边站了。（笑，然后手指听众里的某人），上次我已经试过选布鲁斯将军那边了，我不想再选他那边了（听众都笑，有人说：没事，布鲁斯将军已经搞定了）。我这样说吧，猛禽是我们的下一代格斗战机。而原因是在电子干扰，电子干扰呢，猛禽扛的导弹就是不太够，事到临头，我们就不能不拿机炮杀人；而这会发生的，猛禽上有机炮，飞得快，也灵活，它能做到的。（手指听众）我知道飞F16的兄弟们会拿我这话开玩笑，你们不用跟我道歉；F16和15，如果不扛什么吊舱的话，也是相当好的格斗战机。所以呢，F16的50/60批次和猛禽都是很好的格斗战机，我们会需要他们的。记得我前面说的那个米格21比森吗，它不被注意的飞进来，小RCS，大电子干扰吊舱，最后一分钟才升空，主动弹刚出现，你的LWR,RWR就抓住它了，你就奇怪了，屎绝了，这是从哪里冒出来的，原来是那个小杂种，你要宰了它，这时你就要这种（格斗）能力了。
又问：那么F35呢？
回答：这样说吧，我们这次还是别说它了，（听众大笑，叫好）施奈德和我在422（猛禽的飞测单位）那里干得很久了，我们对他知道的太多，不过（F35）还是下次再说吧。
还补充一点，主讲人认为，苏30MKI还是很令人印象深刻的，印度此次派出的飞行员经验不足，但是将来他们不会犯同样的错，他们能击败F15F16
该位老兄对苏30比较赞扬，可能与他比较推崇F22有关。
该位老兄对苏30比较赞扬，可能与他比较推崇F22有关。
wwu2142老兄这个帖子堪称精华。那个说J-10的视频我没看过，平时不是很在意军事视频。不过我会留神的，如果我先找到的话肯定发上来.