超级军网子虚乌有的su-27和f-15对抗事件
来源：百度文库 编辑：超级军网 时间：2024/04/20 12:20:09
http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/f15vssu27sm_1.htm
Twice in the last month there have been threads on HyperScale’s Discussion Group talking about Flankers fighting Eagles in Summer 1992 and having their lunch.
I was surprised, first of all, that I had never heard about this before. I flew Eagles in the 94FS at Langley, which was the squadron that went to Russia then hosted them when they visited the U.S. With my usual impeccable sense of timing I managed to leave the squadron shortly before all this happened, but I still personally knew, and had flown with, 90% of the pilots assigned to the squadron at the time and 100% of the pilots that flew in these exchange visits. Somehow in the 10 years that have passed they had failed to mention to me in numerous conversations about this very subject that any DACT occurred - I don't think so! In addition to still flying for the Air Force Reserve I work as an F-15 sim instructor at Langley; which means I'm current on the latest F-15 programs and performance. Surely there would be some record (classified or unclassified) of this apocryphal event and the lessons learned if the Eagle had been beaten so badly. There isn't. Period. Dot.
After reading the last thread I decided to check it out.
Rather than relying on hearsay, I contacted three pilots with whom I was stationed at Langley. These pilots flew in Flanker backseats, gave Russian pilots Eagle rides and flew Eagles in formation with the SU-27's and are still flying the F-15. I passed on the Air Forces Monthly "story" as quoted and, after they had stopped laughing hysterically, they told me was this: the amount of DACT that took place between Eagles and Flankers in Summer 1992 was...NONE, nada, zip, zero, nyet, a big doughnut.
DACT was not just frowned upon or discouraged; it was forbidden, for two main reasons.
Nobody wanted the political heat/fallout that would result if one of the jets went out of control and crashed or, worse, if they had a mid-air in the hard manoeuvring that DACT implies.
Second, despite recent warm feelings toward the Russians nobody was going to allow anything remotely classified to be passed on, so the F-15s were flown radar, TEWS, PACS panel, ICS off. When all your weapons systems are turned off it becomes pointless to fly DACT, unless you're planning to recreate WWI, WWII, and Korea by fighting guns only. In which case give me an A-10 that can turn up it's own ass and has a big gun.
What actually did occur (and probably formed the loose basis for this "dramatic story") was that, in addition to single ship backseat rides, the F-15's and SU-27's went out and flew tactical formation with each other (line abreast 1 to 2 miles apart with 2000 to 3000 feet vertical spacing). During 90 degree turns in this formation one aircraft turns first and passes 3000 to 4000 feet through the 6 'o clock of the second jet to go, at which point that second jet starts its turn in order to roll out line abreast but with both jets pointed 90 degrees off the formation's original heading.
During one of these turns the Flanker, rather than continuing to the expected heading, stopped at the Eagles dead six for 3000 feet. After several seconds of wondering what the Hell the SU-27 pilot was doing the F-15 pilot spent 20 seconds trying to shake him and was unable, and then stopped, which proves? Basically nothing.
In the fighter community nobody starts 3000 foot perch setups at the defender's dead six, because staying behind somebody after that kind of start is on a par with clubbing baby seals in its level of difficulty. Instead the offender actually moves to the defender's 4 or 8 'o clock for 3000 feet before starting the fight. Even then in this more difficult setup the offender still stays in an offensive position 95% of the time. The 5% he doesn't is usually a result of him grossly porking up his BFM. It should be emphasized this was a single event, unplanned, unexpected, and half-heartedly done and not some series of "mock dogfights”.
As Paul Harvey says "that's the rest of the story" straight from participants in the event not some second, third, or fourth hand magazine article or internet rumor which just repeats what somebody else wrote.
In the future if you want to argue the merits of the two aircraft please spare us the repetition of this non-event as proof and stick to comparing them based on their airframe/weapons performance as publishedhttp://www.clubhyper.com/reference/f15vssu27sm_1.htm
Twice in the last month there have been threads on HyperScale’s Discussion Group talking about Flankers fighting Eagles in Summer 1992 and having their lunch.
I was surprised, first of all, that I had never heard about this before. I flew Eagles in the 94FS at Langley, which was the squadron that went to Russia then hosted them when they visited the U.S. With my usual impeccable sense of timing I managed to leave the squadron shortly before all this happened, but I still personally knew, and had flown with, 90% of the pilots assigned to the squadron at the time and 100% of the pilots that flew in these exchange visits. Somehow in the 10 years that have passed they had failed to mention to me in numerous conversations about this very subject that any DACT occurred - I don't think so! In addition to still flying for the Air Force Reserve I work as an F-15 sim instructor at Langley; which means I'm current on the latest F-15 programs and performance. Surely there would be some record (classified or unclassified) of this apocryphal event and the lessons learned if the Eagle had been beaten so badly. There isn't. Period. Dot.
After reading the last thread I decided to check it out.
Rather than relying on hearsay, I contacted three pilots with whom I was stationed at Langley. These pilots flew in Flanker backseats, gave Russian pilots Eagle rides and flew Eagles in formation with the SU-27's and are still flying the F-15. I passed on the Air Forces Monthly "story" as quoted and, after they had stopped laughing hysterically, they told me was this: the amount of DACT that took place between Eagles and Flankers in Summer 1992 was...NONE, nada, zip, zero, nyet, a big doughnut.
DACT was not just frowned upon or discouraged; it was forbidden, for two main reasons.
Nobody wanted the political heat/fallout that would result if one of the jets went out of control and crashed or, worse, if they had a mid-air in the hard manoeuvring that DACT implies.
Second, despite recent warm feelings toward the Russians nobody was going to allow anything remotely classified to be passed on, so the F-15s were flown radar, TEWS, PACS panel, ICS off. When all your weapons systems are turned off it becomes pointless to fly DACT, unless you're planning to recreate WWI, WWII, and Korea by fighting guns only. In which case give me an A-10 that can turn up it's own ass and has a big gun.
What actually did occur (and probably formed the loose basis for this "dramatic story") was that, in addition to single ship backseat rides, the F-15's and SU-27's went out and flew tactical formation with each other (line abreast 1 to 2 miles apart with 2000 to 3000 feet vertical spacing). During 90 degree turns in this formation one aircraft turns first and passes 3000 to 4000 feet through the 6 'o clock of the second jet to go, at which point that second jet starts its turn in order to roll out line abreast but with both jets pointed 90 degrees off the formation's original heading.
During one of these turns the Flanker, rather than continuing to the expected heading, stopped at the Eagles dead six for 3000 feet. After several seconds of wondering what the Hell the SU-27 pilot was doing the F-15 pilot spent 20 seconds trying to shake him and was unable, and then stopped, which proves? Basically nothing.
In the fighter community nobody starts 3000 foot perch setups at the defender's dead six, because staying behind somebody after that kind of start is on a par with clubbing baby seals in its level of difficulty. Instead the offender actually moves to the defender's 4 or 8 'o clock for 3000 feet before starting the fight. Even then in this more difficult setup the offender still stays in an offensive position 95% of the time. The 5% he doesn't is usually a result of him grossly porking up his BFM. It should be emphasized this was a single event, unplanned, unexpected, and half-heartedly done and not some series of "mock dogfights”.
As Paul Harvey says "that's the rest of the story" straight from participants in the event not some second, third, or fourth hand magazine article or internet rumor which just repeats what somebody else wrote.
In the future if you want to argue the merits of the two aircraft please spare us the repetition of this non-event as proof and stick to comparing them based on their airframe/weapons performance as published
Twice in the last month there have been threads on HyperScale’s Discussion Group talking about Flankers fighting Eagles in Summer 1992 and having their lunch.
I was surprised, first of all, that I had never heard about this before. I flew Eagles in the 94FS at Langley, which was the squadron that went to Russia then hosted them when they visited the U.S. With my usual impeccable sense of timing I managed to leave the squadron shortly before all this happened, but I still personally knew, and had flown with, 90% of the pilots assigned to the squadron at the time and 100% of the pilots that flew in these exchange visits. Somehow in the 10 years that have passed they had failed to mention to me in numerous conversations about this very subject that any DACT occurred - I don't think so! In addition to still flying for the Air Force Reserve I work as an F-15 sim instructor at Langley; which means I'm current on the latest F-15 programs and performance. Surely there would be some record (classified or unclassified) of this apocryphal event and the lessons learned if the Eagle had been beaten so badly. There isn't. Period. Dot.
After reading the last thread I decided to check it out.
Rather than relying on hearsay, I contacted three pilots with whom I was stationed at Langley. These pilots flew in Flanker backseats, gave Russian pilots Eagle rides and flew Eagles in formation with the SU-27's and are still flying the F-15. I passed on the Air Forces Monthly "story" as quoted and, after they had stopped laughing hysterically, they told me was this: the amount of DACT that took place between Eagles and Flankers in Summer 1992 was...NONE, nada, zip, zero, nyet, a big doughnut.
DACT was not just frowned upon or discouraged; it was forbidden, for two main reasons.
Nobody wanted the political heat/fallout that would result if one of the jets went out of control and crashed or, worse, if they had a mid-air in the hard manoeuvring that DACT implies.
Second, despite recent warm feelings toward the Russians nobody was going to allow anything remotely classified to be passed on, so the F-15s were flown radar, TEWS, PACS panel, ICS off. When all your weapons systems are turned off it becomes pointless to fly DACT, unless you're planning to recreate WWI, WWII, and Korea by fighting guns only. In which case give me an A-10 that can turn up it's own ass and has a big gun.
What actually did occur (and probably formed the loose basis for this "dramatic story") was that, in addition to single ship backseat rides, the F-15's and SU-27's went out and flew tactical formation with each other (line abreast 1 to 2 miles apart with 2000 to 3000 feet vertical spacing). During 90 degree turns in this formation one aircraft turns first and passes 3000 to 4000 feet through the 6 'o clock of the second jet to go, at which point that second jet starts its turn in order to roll out line abreast but with both jets pointed 90 degrees off the formation's original heading.
During one of these turns the Flanker, rather than continuing to the expected heading, stopped at the Eagles dead six for 3000 feet. After several seconds of wondering what the Hell the SU-27 pilot was doing the F-15 pilot spent 20 seconds trying to shake him and was unable, and then stopped, which proves? Basically nothing.
In the fighter community nobody starts 3000 foot perch setups at the defender's dead six, because staying behind somebody after that kind of start is on a par with clubbing baby seals in its level of difficulty. Instead the offender actually moves to the defender's 4 or 8 'o clock for 3000 feet before starting the fight. Even then in this more difficult setup the offender still stays in an offensive position 95% of the time. The 5% he doesn't is usually a result of him grossly porking up his BFM. It should be emphasized this was a single event, unplanned, unexpected, and half-heartedly done and not some series of "mock dogfights”.
As Paul Harvey says "that's the rest of the story" straight from participants in the event not some second, third, or fourth hand magazine article or internet rumor which just repeats what somebody else wrote.
In the future if you want to argue the merits of the two aircraft please spare us the repetition of this non-event as proof and stick to comparing them based on their airframe/weapons performance as publishedhttp://www.clubhyper.com/reference/f15vssu27sm_1.htm
Twice in the last month there have been threads on HyperScale’s Discussion Group talking about Flankers fighting Eagles in Summer 1992 and having their lunch.
I was surprised, first of all, that I had never heard about this before. I flew Eagles in the 94FS at Langley, which was the squadron that went to Russia then hosted them when they visited the U.S. With my usual impeccable sense of timing I managed to leave the squadron shortly before all this happened, but I still personally knew, and had flown with, 90% of the pilots assigned to the squadron at the time and 100% of the pilots that flew in these exchange visits. Somehow in the 10 years that have passed they had failed to mention to me in numerous conversations about this very subject that any DACT occurred - I don't think so! In addition to still flying for the Air Force Reserve I work as an F-15 sim instructor at Langley; which means I'm current on the latest F-15 programs and performance. Surely there would be some record (classified or unclassified) of this apocryphal event and the lessons learned if the Eagle had been beaten so badly. There isn't. Period. Dot.
After reading the last thread I decided to check it out.
Rather than relying on hearsay, I contacted three pilots with whom I was stationed at Langley. These pilots flew in Flanker backseats, gave Russian pilots Eagle rides and flew Eagles in formation with the SU-27's and are still flying the F-15. I passed on the Air Forces Monthly "story" as quoted and, after they had stopped laughing hysterically, they told me was this: the amount of DACT that took place between Eagles and Flankers in Summer 1992 was...NONE, nada, zip, zero, nyet, a big doughnut.
DACT was not just frowned upon or discouraged; it was forbidden, for two main reasons.
Nobody wanted the political heat/fallout that would result if one of the jets went out of control and crashed or, worse, if they had a mid-air in the hard manoeuvring that DACT implies.
Second, despite recent warm feelings toward the Russians nobody was going to allow anything remotely classified to be passed on, so the F-15s were flown radar, TEWS, PACS panel, ICS off. When all your weapons systems are turned off it becomes pointless to fly DACT, unless you're planning to recreate WWI, WWII, and Korea by fighting guns only. In which case give me an A-10 that can turn up it's own ass and has a big gun.
What actually did occur (and probably formed the loose basis for this "dramatic story") was that, in addition to single ship backseat rides, the F-15's and SU-27's went out and flew tactical formation with each other (line abreast 1 to 2 miles apart with 2000 to 3000 feet vertical spacing). During 90 degree turns in this formation one aircraft turns first and passes 3000 to 4000 feet through the 6 'o clock of the second jet to go, at which point that second jet starts its turn in order to roll out line abreast but with both jets pointed 90 degrees off the formation's original heading.
During one of these turns the Flanker, rather than continuing to the expected heading, stopped at the Eagles dead six for 3000 feet. After several seconds of wondering what the Hell the SU-27 pilot was doing the F-15 pilot spent 20 seconds trying to shake him and was unable, and then stopped, which proves? Basically nothing.
In the fighter community nobody starts 3000 foot perch setups at the defender's dead six, because staying behind somebody after that kind of start is on a par with clubbing baby seals in its level of difficulty. Instead the offender actually moves to the defender's 4 or 8 'o clock for 3000 feet before starting the fight. Even then in this more difficult setup the offender still stays in an offensive position 95% of the time. The 5% he doesn't is usually a result of him grossly porking up his BFM. It should be emphasized this was a single event, unplanned, unexpected, and half-heartedly done and not some series of "mock dogfights”.
As Paul Harvey says "that's the rest of the story" straight from participants in the event not some second, third, or fourth hand magazine article or internet rumor which just repeats what somebody else wrote.
In the future if you want to argue the merits of the two aircraft please spare us the repetition of this non-event as proof and stick to comparing them based on their airframe/weapons performance as published
太长了，看不下去……哎
总的来说那个故事确实，比较假
What actually did occur (and probably formed the loose basis for this "dramatic story") was that, in addition to single ship backseat rides, the F-15's and SU-27's went out and flew tactical formation with each other (line abreast 1 to 2 miles apart with 2000 to 3000 feet vertical spacing). During 90 degree turns in this formation one aircraft turns first and passes 3000 to 4000 feet through the 6 'o clock of the second jet to go, at which point that second jet starts its turn in order to roll out line abreast but with both jets pointed 90 degrees off the formation's original heading.
During one of these turns the Flanker, rather than continuing to the expected heading, stopped at the Eagles dead six for 3000 feet. After several seconds of wondering what the Hell the SU-27 pilot was doing the F-15 pilot spent 20 seconds trying to shake him and was unable, and then stopped, which proves? Basically nothing.
这就是整个所谓对抗的全过程，大家编队飞行，SU忽然没按规定动作跟着F-15而是忽然咬住屁股，美国飞行员奇怪那家伙在做什么并且尝试摆脱，但20秒内摆脱不了，就这样。
明显是毛子回去和毛子杂志吹，毛子杂志加工一下发表出来，再传到中国得到升华，成为传说一般的存在了……什么SU轻松摆脱F并且反咬担任裁判的另一架F，然后F根本无法摆脱SU云云。:D
During one of these turns the Flanker, rather than continuing to the expected heading, stopped at the Eagles dead six for 3000 feet. After several seconds of wondering what the Hell the SU-27 pilot was doing the F-15 pilot spent 20 seconds trying to shake him and was unable, and then stopped, which proves? Basically nothing.
这就是整个所谓对抗的全过程，大家编队飞行，SU忽然没按规定动作跟着F-15而是忽然咬住屁股，美国飞行员奇怪那家伙在做什么并且尝试摆脱，但20秒内摆脱不了，就这样。
明显是毛子回去和毛子杂志吹，毛子杂志加工一下发表出来，再传到中国得到升华，成为传说一般的存在了……什么SU轻松摆脱F并且反咬担任裁判的另一架F，然后F根本无法摆脱SU云云。:D
after they had stopped laughing hysterically, they told me was this: the amount of DACT that took place between Eagles and Flankers in Summer 1992 was...NONE, nada, zip, zero, nyet, a big doughnut.
那个传说可把老美笑的，用中文来说，那传说是完全、彻底、肯定、理所当然、不可不戒、100%的没有。:D
那个传说可把老美笑的，用中文来说，那传说是完全、彻底、肯定、理所当然、不可不戒、100%的没有。:D
可笑的是多年来国内媒体为说明SU-27"大大优于"F-15,都把这子虚乌有的事做例子,不知忽悠了多少军迷
在想２０秒钟里Ｆ－１５能干什么？
爬高？按某人的算法，350m/s*20s=7000m（有那么高吗？怀疑中）
转弯？18deg/s*20s=360deg？这是什么？
爬高？按某人的算法，350m/s*20s=7000m（有那么高吗？怀疑中）
转弯？18deg/s*20s=360deg？这是什么？
其实这次英国和印度的联合军演也反映出了这个问题，对于印度这样的英联邦成员的老熟人，印度军机靠近英国时就把雷达都关掉，严防电磁参数泄漏。 最后也没有和台风真正地进行过放手的格斗演练。
美国人这个文章里也有讲这个问题，真正的格斗空战是要用到雷达，电子战设备的，以当时的美俄关系，是不可能双方都打开设备倾力一搏的。
美国人这个文章里也有讲这个问题，真正的格斗空战是要用到雷达，电子战设备的，以当时的美俄关系，是不可能双方都打开设备倾力一搏的。
原帖由 白云居士 于 2007-10-23 21:07 发表
其实这次英国和印度的联合军演也反映出了这个问题，对于印度这样的英联邦成员的老熟人，印度军机靠近英国时就把雷达都关掉，严防电磁参数泄漏。 最后也没有和台风真正地进行过放手的格斗演练。
美国人这个文章里也有 ...
好像你是火星来的？:D
]]
原帖由 白云居士 于 2007-10-23 21:07 发表
其实这次英国和印度的联合军演也反映出了这个问题，对于印度这样的英联邦成员的老熟人，印度军机靠近英国时就把雷达都关掉，严防电磁参数泄漏。 最后也没有和台风真正地进行过放手的格斗演练。
美国人这个文章里也有 ...
AFM上的文章很有意思,提到有一架美国空军的电子侦察机部署到英国两天,而时间恰恰是印度的Su30MKI跟台风过招的时候,还煞有介事的说,这难道是巧合吗?
我有些疑问：
１）Ｆ－１５已经关掉了所有电子设备，是怎么马上就发现了苏２７在它的６点钟方向，他一直在看倒后镜,不用看仪表，他已经用上了头显？这点可能飞行员们知道是怎么回事，我这外行比较迷糊。
２）就按最糟的情况算，１２度／秒的低空低速转弯率，２０秒也够Ｆ－１５将机头指向对方了。说明苏２７也在同时转弯，我不会计算苏２７要多少的转弯率才能始终将机头指向Ｆ－１５，我在假设如果Ｆ－１５转超过１８０度后，苏２７仍能咬住它，迫使Ｆ－１５放弃的话，说明苏２７的转弯率也接近Ｆ－１５，甚至更大，但苏２７可能有高度优势，以高度换取了部分角度。
３）如果Ｆ－１５爬高想做个斤斗。。。。。。这就比较难想象。但苏２７可能表现出接近或超过Ｆ－１５的机动性能。
反正是想不明白。狗斗听起来是一样很危险的东西。前辈们给科普一下？:L
１）Ｆ－１５已经关掉了所有电子设备，是怎么马上就发现了苏２７在它的６点钟方向，他一直在看倒后镜,不用看仪表，他已经用上了头显？这点可能飞行员们知道是怎么回事，我这外行比较迷糊。
２）就按最糟的情况算，１２度／秒的低空低速转弯率，２０秒也够Ｆ－１５将机头指向对方了。说明苏２７也在同时转弯，我不会计算苏２７要多少的转弯率才能始终将机头指向Ｆ－１５，我在假设如果Ｆ－１５转超过１８０度后，苏２７仍能咬住它，迫使Ｆ－１５放弃的话，说明苏２７的转弯率也接近Ｆ－１５，甚至更大，但苏２７可能有高度优势，以高度换取了部分角度。
３）如果Ｆ－１５爬高想做个斤斗。。。。。。这就比较难想象。但苏２７可能表现出接近或超过Ｆ－１５的机动性能。
反正是想不明白。狗斗听起来是一样很危险的东西。前辈们给科普一下？:L
想不明白就不用想了,[:a8:] 因为这事本来就是子虚乌有的:)
那么当时文章里还有什么“15胜9平2负”的说法，编造文章的人真是下了不少功夫啊～
原帖由 白云居士 于 2007-10-23 21:18 发表
你丫的:@
辟谣，要年年讲，月月讲，天天讲[:a11:]
:victory:
假如你把某个网络特定群体不看作人的话，我也绝对赞同你所说的“人人早知道了”。;P
gzgeek注意，f-15连副油箱都没扔，能干什么呀
原帖由 aaasssaaa 于 2007-10-24 11:33 发表
假如你把某个网络特定群体不看作人的话，我也绝对赞同你所说的“人人早知道了”。;P
=========你是说你吧!!这个内容在这里贴了不下五次了!!你还不知道!!真不是个人啊!!;P ;P
原帖由 17579939 于 2007-10-24 14:19 发表
=========你是说你吧!!这个内容在这里贴了不下五次了!!你还不知道!!真不是个人啊!!;P ;P
你认为次从上次有人帖过后，超大就再没有新会员加入了？
原帖由 白云居士 于 2007-10-24 14:54 发表
你认为次从上次有人帖过后，超大就再没有新会员加入了？
=============那还不好办!!你们专门开个辟谣贴不就行!!
原帖由 17579939 于 2007-10-24 15:04 发表
=============那还不好办!!你们专门开个辟谣贴不就行!!
那还不如再开个常识帖，超大里一多半帖子都可以删掉了。
原帖由 白云居士 于 2007-10-24 15:19 发表
那还不如再开个常识帖，超大里一多半帖子都可以删掉了。
===========这还不好啊!!都不知道你们是如何想的!!
有些人啊，只要看到自己不想看到的东西——哪怕他自己也知道是事实——都会莫名其妙地不爽，恨不能将其从论坛驱除干净，恨不能谣言成为人人相信的真理。
原帖由 840206 于 2007-10-24 15:37 发表
有些人啊，只要看到自己不想看到的东西——哪怕他自己也知道是事实——都会莫名其妙地不爽，恨不能将其从论坛驱除干净，恨不能谣言成为人人相信的真理。
==========================有些人不也一样!!表现的比我还要不爽;P ;P
原帖由 17579939 于 2007-10-24 15:53 发表
==========================有些人不也一样!!表现的比我还要不爽;P ;P
是呀是呀，只不过有些人是看到谎言很不爽，而另外某些人是看到谎言被戳破很不爽哦;P
还是那个问题。f-15连副油箱都不扔，能干什么？
原帖由 zwz 于 2007-10-25 11:00 发表
还是那个问题。f-15连副油箱都不扔，能干什么？
==========都知道了!!不用你在在这里重复了!!
原帖由 gzgeek 于 2007-10-23 21:34 发表
我有些疑问：
１）Ｆ－１５已经关掉了所有电子设备，是怎么马上就发现了苏２７在它的６点钟方向，他一直在看倒后镜,不用看仪表，他已经用上了头显？这点可能飞行员们知道是怎么回事，我这外行比较迷糊。
２）就按 ...
您说的是转向吧？可是当F15尝试“摆脱”的时候，相信不是一个方向慢慢转过去的。
原帖由 白云居士 于 2007-10-23 21:18 发表
你丫的:@
辟谣，要年年讲，月月讲，天天讲[:a11:]
我不是这个意思;P