中印网友论战:FC1,J10

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先声明,如果版主觉得不妥就请在本贴回个话,我也不想浪费时间。我原来是发在虚幻的,但版主觉得毫无意义所以贴子给锁了。我只是觉得我答应了要做的事没做而且还没法儿解释,所以决定再尝试一次


现在在英国的Air Force Monthly(AFM空军月刊)的论坛上大战,主要是关于J10和FC1。我本来不想加入的,因为我正在老印的某论坛上给他们做触及灵魂深处的交流,所以不想说太过火的话。但有一两个印度的实在太过分.

我给大家翻译一下这个贴,就当是娱乐了。很长,我可能要翻几天。

先说说背景
AFM是海外最有影响力的航空杂志之一,历史也挺长。他的论坛这些年来也成了为数不多的几个比较热闹得国际性英语军事论坛。前几天那个中国海军参观巴西航母的消息就是一个巴西网友在AFM上发的。

但在这个论坛上,华人和印度人很不融洽。谁是谁非,孩子没娘,说来话长。
总之,经过多次大战,基本上华人极少在有关印度的话题中发言。大部份印度人也尽量少在中国的话题中出声。但在有关FC1/JF17的话题中,双方还是时有争吵。
[此贴子已经被作者于2005-11-30 16:33:22编辑过]
先声明,如果版主觉得不妥就请在本贴回个话,我也不想浪费时间。我原来是发在虚幻的,但版主觉得毫无意义所以贴子给锁了。我只是觉得我答应了要做的事没做而且还没法儿解释,所以决定再尝试一次


现在在英国的Air Force Monthly(AFM空军月刊)的论坛上大战,主要是关于J10和FC1。我本来不想加入的,因为我正在老印的某论坛上给他们做触及灵魂深处的交流,所以不想说太过火的话。但有一两个印度的实在太过分.

我给大家翻译一下这个贴,就当是娱乐了。很长,我可能要翻几天。

先说说背景
AFM是海外最有影响力的航空杂志之一,历史也挺长。他的论坛这些年来也成了为数不多的几个比较热闹得国际性英语军事论坛。前几天那个中国海军参观巴西航母的消息就是一个巴西网友在AFM上发的。

但在这个论坛上,华人和印度人很不融洽。谁是谁非,孩子没娘,说来话长。
总之,经过多次大战,基本上华人极少在有关印度的话题中发言。大部份印度人也尽量少在中国的话题中出声。但在有关FC1/JF17的话题中,双方还是时有争吵。
[此贴子已经被作者于2005-11-30 16:33:22编辑过]
<P>翻译:</P>
<P> 题目:Proposed new changes to the FC-1/JF-17 (FC1/JF17的新改进设想)</P>
<P> aced inc: <BR> This magazine scan is from Ordnance Science Technology Nov. issue, a credible Chinese defence magazine.</P>
<P> Comments plz.<BR> (下面的图片扫描来自11月的兵器知识,一份有名的中国防务杂志。<BR> 请评论。) 图片我就不转了,大家都见过,就是那个画的发财04和01的三视图。<BR> saf2000: <BR> the propsed changes are probably to do with improving flight charatertisics but these changes also make it look more "stealthy" - i wonder if it actually has made any difference to RCS?<BR> (这些改动很可能是为了改善飞行品质,不过也让它看上去更隐身些了。不知道RCS有没有真的变化。)<BR> vajt: <BR> The top one definitely does look more stealthy with the tail, wings and even nose redesigns. The wings look almost like a blend between the F-18 and the arrow wing design of the F-16XL.</P>
<P> Maybe they will offer this for export as a cheaper semi-stealth fighter? A competitor to the Gripen?<BR> (上半部那各的确看上去更隐身,机尾,机翼和机鼻都重新设计了。机翼几乎像是F18和F16XL的箭簇翼的混合。<BR> 可能他们想提供一个用于出口的廉价半隐身战机?和Gripen竞争?)</P>
<P>Distiller:<BR> Now it starts to look like an airplane!<BR> See, I told you so moment: Couple of month back I said it was a dud<BR> and that the area ruling was amiss on the original design. That sure is better now.<BR> Looks ever more like a F-20 with large Super Hornet like strakes. )<BR> Has TVC now I take it? The reason for the recess on the stabilator.<BR> Think the whole tail unit is too small now, and a little bit too close to the main wing <BR> (现在它开始看上去像架飞机了!<BR> 瞧,我早就和你们说过:俩月前我说过它不成器,而且那个初始设计上少了面积律的应用。现在就好多了。看上去更像F20加上了超黄蜂的大边条。我猜它是不是还有TVC?因为垂尾收进了些。<BR> 觉得整个尾部太小,太靠近主翼。)</P>
<P> aced inc:<BR> yes, TVC is still a possibility for the FC-1/JF-17.<BR> This one is from 2004 :....<BR> 是,TVC是有可能装上FC1的。<BR> 这有篇2004的文章:(这位然后上了篇讲AL31和RD33的文章,不过好像看不出根FC1有直接关联,我就不翻了。不过看到这儿,印度的可能就已经开始搓火了。)</P>
<P> Raygun:<BR> wait till you see a redesign J-10 it going look liked a minature version of the F-35!. thurst vector engine,a new wing with possble internal weapon bay, a flat round nose, ductless intake and a new tail design.you all going to be shock when this start toflying around soon<BR>等着瞧改进的J10吧,他将像个小F35,矢量发动机,新翼形,可能有内置武器舱,扁平机鼻,无隔层进气道,再加新垂尾。不久后等他飞起来你们会震惊的。(印度的这会儿肯定受不了了。靠,原来是高山害的。不过,这个贴可是发在11月7号,高山的图还没出呢吧。)</P>
<P>phrozenflame:(这个应该是个老巴,用的是老巴的国旗做自己的符号)。<BR> I'd wait for more sources.<BR> But this certainly looks more interesting...is it possible that since Russia is saying no to engine, This is taken as an oppurtunity to give more time to Chinese engine manufacturers to finalize an engine for FC-1..and at the same time improve the rest of the plane? ..now we're moving away from tried and tested mature tech...to more of newer tech as far as Chinese are concerned...?<BR> Most of the avionics can be tested on the flying prototypes, but FBW would certainly needed to be changed. seIe?<BR> Pakistan was expecting F-16 deals, but its being delayed indefinately I heard so...the whole program is being pushed back, I dont think there are any strategic urgencies due to Earthquake...it has certainly eliminated any internal security issues, I have never seen Pakistan more united in my whole life, and no one would be low enough to attack Pakistan in this hour of tragedy.<BR>我还是再等等更多的消息吧。<BR> 但这的确令人感兴趣。是否因为俄罗斯在引擎方面说了不字,所以中国的发动机厂商借机为FC1确定一个呢?而且同时还能改进其他的方面。现在,我们开始从一个测试过的成熟的技术,转向一个更新的技术,至少对中国人来说。<BR> 大部份的航电应该能在现有的原型机上测试,但线传飞控肯定得改。<BR> 巴基斯坦前一阵在盼望F16,但我听说已经无限期推迟了,整个计划都被推后了。我觉得地震后这已经没有战略上的紧迫性了。地震消除了我们内部的安全问题,我从没见过巴基斯坦如此团结。我不信有谁会卑鄙到在这个时候攻击我们。</P>
<P><BR> rockgordon: <BR> "Stealthy"???<BR>"隐身性“???(多说一句,stealth和stealthy在使用时是不同的。F22是stealth.EF2000就是stealthy,换句话说就是具有隐身的一些特性,但不是隐身机。)<BR> <BR> <BR>F18Hamburger:<BR> looks nice, reminds me of the MAKO. but keep in mind it says proposed changes. It is no guarantee that the final design will look like that.<BR>看上去不错,让我想起了MAKO.不过的记住这指使设想。无法保证最后的设计就是这样。</P>
<P><BR> Star49:<BR> they are making two more prototypes after 04. so certainly more or less changes are possible untill design freeze. i would like to see CFT. <BR> 他们在04机后还要造两架原型机。所以在设计冻结前,或多或少还可能有改变。我想见到CFT适形油箱)</P>
<P><BR> SOC:<BR> That's a nice drawing, but the other thread it was posted in has a wind-tunnel model the drawing appears to be based on. There are a lot of differences, so if there are going ot be wholesale changes, that drawing probably isn't 100% accurate.<BR>图不错。不过另一个话题里有个风洞模型,此图像是基于那个模型。差别很多,所以,如果设计上有大批量改动的话,这个图恐怕不是100%准确。</P>
<P><BR>Deino:  <BR>Hmmm ... ? I don't remember this "wind-tunnel model" ... could You please re-post it ???<BR>All I found is this CG ....<BR>(。。。我怎么不记得有这么个风洞模型?。。。。麻烦你再发一次?<BR>我能找到的就是下面这个CG)那个图就是超大上的一个发财04的CG图。</P>
<P><BR>PLAMC:  <BR>Its appears this improvement and more stealthy design by CAC is to try and attract PLAAF/PLAN and international orders, with previously the PLAAF indicating it was not interested the FC-1. Maybe now the PLAAF can rethink.</P>
<P>But I must say the FC-1 is still very light weight, and cannot hold a heavy payload and maintains 7 hardpoints.</P>
<P>How does the FC-1 compare with the JAS-39 Gripen? How many hardpoints does the Gripen have?<BR>(CAC的这个改进和更隐身的设计似乎是要吸引中国空海军和国际订单。以前中国空军暗示对FC1没兴趣。或许现在他们会再考虑考虑。<BR>不过我还是要说FC1还是很轻量级,不能承受重载且保持7个挂点。<BR>FC1和JAS-39 Gripen比如何?Gripen有几个挂点?</P>
<P><BR>F-18 Hamburger:  <BR>7 as well. 2 of which are used for heavy weapons. But so what if it's light weight, it's designed for that role. Leave the big stuff for the J-10, JH-7 and Flankers.<BR>(也是7个。其中2个是挂重型武器的。但是轻量级又怎么了,它就是为这个角色设计的。大家伙就留给J10,JH7和侧卫吧)</P>
<P><BR>Distiller:  <BR>The silhouette on top of this post sports intakes stashed beneath the strakes, that CGI shows an older version.<BR>(本贴顶部的侧视图中进气道被置于边条的下面,那副CG显示的是个更老的版本。)</P>
<P><BR>vikasrehman:  <BR>China has already signed a contract for 100 RD-93 engines to be used in FC-1 (and negotiating for another 400 or so). So the question is if those 100 engines are not for JF-17-Pakistani version (according to media reports), and the new version is to attract PLAAF/PLAN and international orders, where would those 100 engines be used? Doesn't it indicate that CAC has already received some orders for FC-1?<BR>(中国已经为FC1签了100台RD-93发动机的和同(另外400台也在商谈中)。现在的问题是,如果根据一些媒体的报导这一百台发动机不是给巴基斯坦的JF17,而这个新改型又是想吸引中国空军和国际订单,那么那一百台发动机是给谁的呢?这是否意味着CAC已经接到了订单?)</P>
<P><BR>Curious:<BR>IIRC Normally an aircraft airframe can use upto 3 Russian type engines in its lifetime ?? So 100 or even 500 engines may not be that many aircraft.<BR>(我没记错的话,通常一架飞机的全寿命期间需要三台俄制的发动机??所以100甚至500台发动机也不意味着很多架飞机)</P>
<P>  <BR>flex297:  <BR>It is interesting how you are able to totally ignore the continuous development on this field and easily take numbers that were valid 20 years ago.. The service life of the vanilla RD-33 from mid 80s has nothing, I repeat, nothing in common with current values of RD-93.. Believe me, even Chinese don't buy any crap you offer..<BR>(有趣的是你如何能够完全忽略这方面的持续发展进而轻易地引用20年前的数据。80年代猴型RD33的寿命指标,我再重复一遍,和90年代的RD93的数据完全没有相同之处。信我的,即使中国人也不会买你说的那种垃圾的。)</P>
<P><BR>aced_inc:  <BR>The LERX change was already evident at this year's Beijing air Show :<BR>(那个大边条改进在今年北京航展上已经很明显了。)<BR>  </P>
<P>Nicolas10:  <BR>The 3D render looks pretty neat actually!<BR>(其实那个3D的CG看上去挺清爽。)</P>
<P><BR>Ravula:  </P>
<P>That just talks about 33Ns. Nothing about 133s on Fc-1.<BR>(那篇讲TVC的文章只是谈33Ns. 根本没有关于FC1上133s的。)</P>
<P><BR>vikasrehman:  <BR>If so, CAC is to produce 30+ aircrafts, and envisages them to remain in service for 20-25 years (based on 100 engines already already ordered and your suggestion of 3 engines for service life of aircraft). So, who has ordered that many FC-1s...any suggestions? <BR>如果一架飞机要三台发动机,那么CAC就要生产30+的飞机,假想服务20-25年(基于100台发动机和一机三发的推论)。那么到底谁订购了这些飞机呢?谁说说?</P>
<P><BR> </P>
<P>SOC:  <BR>That second image is very similar to the wind tunnel model I'm thinking of. Notice how the wings aren't enlarged and the tailfins aren't moved back like the artist's impression in the first post shows.<BR>第二副图(就是北京航展上的照片,我刚才略过了)很像我说的风洞模型。注意,和上面那个艺术图比较,机翼没有放大,垂尾也没有移近来。</P>
<P><BR>tphuang:  <BR>seems like the earthquake is the best thing that happened to CAC. Considering that the original proposed deal cost 6 billion, even with the 1.5 billion aid, it's still 4.5 for Pakistan. I really do think it will stick with the 150 JF-17 order. The problem with JF-17 is in the pla market.<BR>似乎地震对CAC是最好不过了。考虑到原来的提议是60亿美元,就算15亿是捐赠,巴基斯坦还有45亿。我严重认为他会坚持150架的JF17订单。JF17的问题是在中国空军市场。</P>
<P>  <BR>PLAMC:  <BR>Good speculation and analysis, but no doubt: Pakistan will not quit the FC-1 program, to Pakistan the program is a matter of life or death. The program is a means to Pakistan to begin in a phase of being a nation in the league of building indigenous planes inc. fighter jets, transport planes.</P>
<P>History has indicated the Pakistan cannot depend to much on the American offer. If sanctioned again for whatever reason, would mean Pakistan to fall behind the Indians in terms of years or decades (in this arms race).</P>
<P>Though, the US offer is attempt to kick China out of the picture. But the Pakistanis would still trust China more over the US.</P>
<P>China is one step ahead of the US, in the Pakistani military aviation market, as China is willing to share transfer of technology know-how to our Pakistani allies. This is something the Americans will never do, esp. to Pakistan, which it may fear this technology falls in the hands of the Chinese. Pakistan would still prefer more advanced western technology, an area will China is trying to act on, and trying to close the gap.</P>
<P>But to the Pakistanis an indigenous option is of their highest priority, which they know they can get, only with Chinese assistance.</P>
<P>(这是回应转的汉和的那篇文章。)不错的猜测和分析,但毫无疑问:巴基斯坦不会退出FC1计划。对巴基斯坦来说这是个生与死的问题,它意味着巴基斯坦将开始成为一个能自制战机,运输机的国家。<BR>历史已经明示巴基斯坦不能过于依赖美国。如果制裁又发生,无论是什么原因,都将使巴基斯坦在和印度的军备竞赛中落后几十年。<BR>近管美国的提案是为了把中国踢出去,但与美国相比,巴基斯坦仍然会更信赖中国。<BR>中国在巴基斯坦的军用航空市场上要领先美国一步,因为中国愿意转移和分享他们的知识给我们巴基斯坦盟友。这是美国永远不会做的事,特别是对巴基斯坦。因为他怕他的技术落入中国的手中。当然巴基斯坦人然会偏爱西方的更先进的科技。这是中国人须努力和缩短差距的地方。<BR>不过对巴基斯坦来说国产化的选择是他们的最高优先事项之一,他们知道他们可以做到,但只有在中国的帮助下。<BR>  <BR>24th November 2005, 17:42  <BR>Vaiar:  <BR>In terms of the airforce, isn't Pakistan already that far behind?<BR>就空军来说,巴基斯坦不是已经远远落后于印度了吗?<BR>  </P>
<P>matt:  <BR>Those features stated as upgrades are nothing less then MAJOR redesigns to the Aircraft. How can they change something as major as a leading edge of an aircraft and call it an "upgrade" ? is that marketing speak meaning they got it wrong the first time.</P>
<P>Saying that the newer version if it does live up to its hype looks like a fiesty aircraft. Also reminds me of the mig design being built by Iran.<BR>那些宣称的改进可绝对是对此机的大型重新设计。他们怎能把向前伸边条这样的重要东西称作是改进呢?这是否是在用市场营销话语来暗示他们一开始就告错了呢?<BR>这新版本,如果真有吹得那么好,像是架有冲劲的飞机。另外,它让我想起了米格卖给伊朗人的那个设计。</P>
<P><BR>Pinko:  <BR>Well the latest interview with PAF air chief published in JDW reveals that the PAF still stick to their initial order of 150 JF-17 with an option increasing the number to 250 eventually.<BR>下面是巴基斯坦空军司令的最新访谈:(略去。。。,注意这位网友一开始把air chief拼成了air chef,后来才更正过来,不过已经被下面的印度人如获至宝)</P>
<P><BR>matt  <BR>Wow they have air chefs? </P>
<P>we in the uk only have little chefs and they cant even make a decent pancake.</P>
<P>All those canopeners they must have really must help with the whoopa$$<BR>哇,他们有空中厨师?<BR>我们在英国只有小厨师,而且连小煎饼都做不好。<BR>他们那些罐头刀一定很适合打爆他们的屁屁</P>
<P><BR>aced_inc  </P>
<P><a href='mailto:LOL!!@"chefs' target="_blank" >LOL!!@"chefs</A>"<BR>真搞笑,厨师</P>
<P>Pinko  <BR>sorry My fault<BR>对不起我搞错了。<BR>  </P>
<P>tphuang  <BR>no, this is just a Chinese thing. Trust me, the first major upgrade on J-10 will be so dramatic that it would be unrecognizable to some people and China will still call it J-10.<BR>不,这只是中国人的方式(他是在回那个matt关于发财04改动太大的贴)。 相信我,J10的第一个大改将会大得让你们一些人认不出来,但中国还是会叫他J10。</P>
<P><BR>sosolp  <BR>Registered User   Join Date: Nov 2005<BR>Posts: 2  <BR> <BR>Have PAF lose patient of jf-17? <BR>these days ,many information and disscussion made on the contract of f-16s,like paf accept 26 dutch f-16mlu.i just have a question, what's the paf's attitude to jf17 now? will paf finally give up this plane? some chinese said that only jf17 will give paf the ability of bvr because that us won't offer aim-120 to paf.will this true? hope friends tell me! <BR>巴基斯坦空军是不是对JF17失去耐心了?<BR>这阵子有很多关于F16和同的消息和讨论,比如PAF接收26架荷兰F16.我有个问题,PAF现在对JF17的态度如何?PAF会放弃JF17吗?一些中国人说只有JF17才能给PAF超视距(BVR)能力,这是真的吗?希望朋友们能告诉我。</P>
<P>  <BR>pilatus:  <BR>they need these aircraft to make up numbers and replace a large part of their combat aircraft and it would be too expensive to buy an all F16 fleet so they probably going to go for another mixed fleet of medium/high tech aircraft just like the F7/F16 buy years ago.JF17 will be kept.<BR>他们需要这些飞机来凑够数量,而且他们大部份的作战飞机需要替换。全部都换F16就太贵了。所以他们很可能采取高中挡混合的编成,就像以前的F7/F16采购一样。JF17会保住的。</P>
<P>Austin:(挺爱评论的一个印度网友)  <BR>I dont know about patience , But As things are with the warming of relations between Pak and US , and the availability of unlimited F-16 , Prudence demands that PAF go for F-16 ( which ever block ) in numbers to meet their threat requirement.</P>
<P>JF-17 has been a experimental project with latest news suggesting changes in design , with no clear availibility of Engine from Russia or similar reliable chinese engine , Its better to close the JF-17 chapter or take it as a Technology Demonstrator for future project if at all it is vaiable to do so.</P>
<P>There is no point with continuing with a 3rd Gen Design Aircraft with no reliable engine , The Chinese would be more than happy to dump their unreliable engine and 3rd gen design on Pakistan.</P>
<P>I think the sound bite emerging from Pakistan is with F-16 available and no strings attached to it , It better to go for an advanced F-16 with Training and Infra to support it available and the experience in F-16 with Pakistan , F-16 would be the logical route.</P>
<P>Even though Chinese have built reliable 3rd gen aircraft in past , The debacle with J-10 and J-17 shows what will be the aircraft of choice for PAF.<BR>我不了解他们的耐心,但目下,巴基和美国关系正升温,F16无限量供应。PAF购买F16才是应对威胁的稳妥方式。<BR>JF17一直是个试验项目,最新消息说明设计有变,俄罗斯或者中国也没有明确可靠的发动机供货。最好还是结束JF17这一章,或者把它当作未来项目的技术验证,如果他真有什么利用价值的话。<BR>这样一个没可靠发动机的3代机根本没有进行下去的意义(注意,在印度人的眼中,F22是5代机,LCA和EF2000都是4代机)。中国会很乐意把他们不可靠的发动机和3代设计扔给巴基斯坦的。<BR>我认为从巴基斯坦的嚼舌声中看,现成的F16,而且没有给人下倒勾,最好选F16.训练和设施都已经有了,经验也有,F16是合逻辑的路子。<BR>即使中国人能造可靠的三代机了,但J10和JF17的崩溃显示了PAF将会选择哪种飞机。</P>
<P>WisePanda: (这也是个老印,看网名纠知道了,只有这样才能显出他的聪明) <BR>if they dont want their inventory cut in half when the Mirages retire they need something other than F16. around 150-200 mirages are nearing end of their lives even after upg.<BR>如果他们不想看到当幻象机退役时他们的机队减半的话,他们除了F16还得要其他得东东。  </P>
<P><BR>Austin:  <BR>WisePanda , Pakistan has been given the option for buying as much as F-16 they want no strings attached there , so if Training , Infrastructure &amp; Cost are concerned its more Wise to go for more numbers of same type which will actually help bringing down the cost.</P>
<P>Also F-16 would be More bang for Buck and JF-17 is still an unproven airframe with no engine reliability and other problems like design , so F-16 would be a wiser choice for PAF.Also China has little experience with designing a 4th gen aircraft with they having problems of their own with J-10.</P>
<P>The choice is simple Proven Aircraft vs Unproven/Unreliable one.</P>
<P>If one looks at the message coming out of pakistan , Its clear its going to b F-16.<BR>精猫熊,巴基斯坦可以选择F16,买多少都行,而且没藏倒勾的。如果考虑到训练,设施和成本,购买更多的同一种机型才是明智的,而且可以帮助削减成本。<BR>而且,F16更值那个价。JF17仍然是个未验证的机体,没有可靠发动机,还有其他问题,比如设计上的。所以对PAF来说F16是更聪明的选择。再说了中国几乎没有设计4代机的经验,他们的J10还不少问题呢。<BR>现在的选择就是,简易的验证了的飞机,或者 未经验证的,不可靠的飞机。<BR>如果你看看巴基斯坦那边的消息,很明显答案是F16.</P>
<P>FrancisDeAssisi:  <BR> <BR>Who is JF-17's patient ?? I never knew it had such facilities as well ??<BR>谁是JF17的病人?我从没听说它有这样的功能。??</P>
<P><BR>sosolp  <BR>sorry friend,my english is rather poor~~<BR>对不起,我的英语挺差的。(其实就是几个印度人很爱挑这些语法或拼法的刺,极少有其他英语国家的网友这样做。)<BR>  </P>
<P>vikasrehman  <BR>I beg to disagree with you on this one. Although going for more F-16 would seem logical, risk of sanctions is always there. You say no strings attached, but sanctions that can force you to ground a large chunk of your fleet is the strongest string of all. JF-17 was born out of PAF's need to move away from all this, and i cant imagine PAF giving up this project...unless of course US can somehow convince them that no sanctions would ever b placed under any circustances, something that i cant imagine happening in near future.<BR>我冒昧地说我不赞同你的观点(Austin关于F16的选择)。近管F16似乎是合理的,但制裁的风险始终存在。你说没加倒勾,可是一个制裁就让你大部份机队趴地上,这就是最强的倒勾。JF17就是因为PAF想摆脱这种境地而生的。我无法想象PAF会放弃这个项目,。。。当然除非美国能让他们信服无论任何情况下都不会有制裁。而这是我认为在最近的将来无法想象的事。</P>
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虚幻的我看过,继续发下去吧。
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<P>虚幻的版主为什么把哪个帖子锁了?</P>
<P>版主后来发了短信给我说,此贴毫无意义。</P>
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[此贴子已经被作者于2005-11-30 10:47:10编辑过]
太长了吧
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<P>短贴看来可以。</P>
<P>不过这可够我裁剪的了,到此连十分之一还不到呢。</P>
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支持继续翻下去~~
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<P>太痛苦了,五行字,半个小时都发不上来。</P>
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<P>我一直不明白:为什么在虚幻像PUPU这样的贵宾可以跟人家拉家常扯上半个版面,而楼主这样的帖子被认为毫无意义而被锁;我同样不明白那个叫什么歼-14的版主到底是不是版主,在辩论中比会员还立场鲜明,指责他人毫无顾忌而对指责他的人以版主的身份提出警告,甚至说:你要走就走,虚幻不会因为谁谁谁走了就不行...</P>
<P>我公司的人力资源主管对我说:你不想干?我明天就可以找个大学生代替你!</P>
<P>我对他说:对,但是如果你不干了,明天找个民工就能替代你。</P>
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<P>没有战略眼光</P>
<P>选择FC1与F16是战略的选择,性能不是第一位的</P>
<P>同时,FC1与F16的性能差异,也不是外国网民认为的那样大</P>

<P>感觉印度网民唯美国是从,只有欧美的东西是好的,这就是他们致命的弱点.</P>
[B]以下是引用[I]雷神帝释天[/I]在2005-11-30 12:51:00的发言:[/B][BR]<P>我一直不明白:为什么在虚幻像PUPU这样的贵宾可以跟人家拉家常扯上半个版面,而楼主这样的帖子被认为毫无意义而被锁;我同样不明白那个叫什么歼-14的版主到底是不是版主,在辩论中比会员还立场鲜明,指责他人毫无顾忌而对指责他的人以版主的身份提出警告,甚至说:你要走就走,虚幻不会因为谁谁谁走了就不行...</P><P>我公司的人力资源主管对我说:你不想干?我明天就可以找个大学生代替你!</P><P>我对他说:对,但是如果你不干了,明天找个民工就能替代你。</P>

   你对你们主管说话还这么牛??
   趁早跳槽吧,在这个公司已经没有路走了。。
[em01][em01][em01][em01][em01][em01][em01]
[B]以下是引用[I]wwu2142[/I]在2005-11-30 10:38:00的发言:[/B][BR]<P>版主后来发了短信给我说,此贴毫无意义。</P>

偶还特的在找这个贴子呢,跑到CD了[em01]
强烈支持LZ!!
有些xh版主也是不可理喻
决定删掉英文,节约空间。
matt,
那些宣称的改进可绝对是对此机的大型重新设计。他们怎能把向前伸边条这样的重要东西称作是改进呢?这是否是在用市场营销话语来暗示他们一开始就搞错了呢?

这新版本,如果真有吹得那么好,倒像是架有冲劲的飞机。另外,它让我想起了米格卖给伊朗人的那个设计。

Austin,
Vikasrehman,我倒要冒昧地说不赞同你。制裁是不可避免的。印度和巴基斯坦在华盛顿的眼里,核武器核扩散都是高度焦点。以前制裁是肯定的。
但那已应经过去了,911后世界已经变了,美国已经在主动接触巴基斯坦,制裁也解除了。核幽灵不会回来了,制裁不会再发生了,这是华盛顿向印度和巴基斯坦传达过的。
即便是PAF和总统都知道制裁不会有了,所以才又像印度那样的正面回应声。
既然数量不是问题,PAF可以分批多年购买150以上的F16.头一批进口,剩下的组装,甚至授权生产,就像印度的侧卫和同一样。
这样PAF应该感觉不错,即使有制裁也不会影响PAF的作战能力。PAF已经把F16用到了极致,我用不着多说了吧。
J10和JF17的问题是根本未经验证,而且JF17没有可靠的引擎,又有设计问题。相反,F16是经过考验的,多年来,PAF已经有了战术,维护和训练的支持。这些东西都是很难学的,而且要很多年时间。PAF应该不会放弃这个机会,F16是受欢迎的,150架应该能替换那些衰退的幻影和各类中国飞机。
还有,这样大的数量将减少成本和维护的问题。或者巴基斯坦可以用它在JF17得到的经验来设计个新的轻型战机,用西方的引擎和航电,如果他想的话。引擎和航电都很容易得到,设计上的帮助也一样。
如果听听巴基斯坦那边的声音,应该就是F16乐,而且我也觉得是正确选择。
引用:
。。。。。
这说不合适,但抱歉戳破你的泡泡,这个用借来的设计的J10在中国空军那儿面临悲惨的结局,结局就是大话和失败。JF17则面临设计问题和不可靠的隐情。这就是中国四代机的悲惨故事。
当然这属于另外的话题,就不掺进PAF的事里了。
crobato,
我觉得你才是吃了你的泡泡。或许你该先看看自己的后院在批评别人。似乎你们才是有不少项目在崩溃。
J10怎么是借来的设计了?是不是所有三角翼加鸭翼的飞机都是上哪儿借来的?或许你没有注意到LAVI和J10比有很多基本的设计上的不同。
至于说失败,他们刚收到了另一批共100台引擎,这是计划的250台中的一部份。此前他们已经收到且已经用了54台。在这54台之前,还有十台是供原型机和测试用的。两条生产线在生产,两个团(20-22,或者24架一个团)服役中,一个团是作为蓝军假想敌部队同时保卫北京地区。

Hell King,
J10和FC1仍然在继续。我不会把他们称作是失败的项目。用同样的逻辑的话,体型加大而且重新设计过的超黄蜂一定也是失败的。
LCA倒是一个失败的例子。还吹嘘是国产飞机。现在很明显,它是主要由外国部件制造的,就算他飞上了天。如果就因为巴基斯坦在考虑F16所以FC1就是失败的,那LCA也一样因为印度正在考虑苏凯,米格,黄蜂,幻影等等。
  

tphuang,
我回应下上面的几个贴,
JF17肯定会有BVR能力。它将使用J10雷达的缩小版,你们可以自己推论一下。JF17雷达的要求之一就是一定要能多目标BVR接战,我想我不用多说了。看看Richard Fisher的文章你就不会对我说的有疑问了。(理查。费雪是个出名的中国威胁论者)
至于引擎,WS13A2008年就会出来,正好适合JF17量产。中国是不会放弃这个引擎发展计划的,它将是下一代引擎(推比9和10)的基础。
J10呢,它已经完全服役了。两周前人民日报和新华社已经披露了。可笑的是有人还认为它是失败的。在中国空军的榜上它已超越了侧卫家族,而这正是因为它超卓的空战能力。你们是否注意到中国已经不买更多的侧卫了?包括Su35?现在J10有两条生产线,每月生产3架,目标是年底拥有3个团(接近100架)。明年就有新改型出来了。作为一个失败的项目,这些还算不错吧?
[此贴子已经被作者于2005-11-30 16:26:31编辑过]
<P>我前面发不出的贴子怎么又都跳出来了,[em06][em06]</P>
<P>可能是网络和系统慢的原因,其实你等会儿帖子就能出来不要急了!</P>
[B]以下是引用[I]wwu2142[/I]在2005-11-30 15:55:00的发言:[/B][BR]决定删掉英文,节约空间。
.........
tphuang,
我回应下上面的几个贴,
JF17肯定会有BVR能力。它将使用J10雷达的缩小版,你们可以自己推论一下。JF17雷达的要求之一就是一定要能多目标BVR接战,我想我不用多说了。看看Richard Fisher的文章你就不会对我说的有疑问了。(理查。费雪是个出名的中国威胁论者)
至于引擎,WS13A2008年就会出来,正好适合JF17量产。中国是不会放弃这个引擎发展计划的,它将是下一代引擎(推比9和10)的基础。
J10呢,它已经完全服役了。两周前人民日报和新华社已经披露了。可笑的是有人还认为它是失败的。在中国空军的榜上它已超越了侧卫家族,而这正是因为它超卓的空战能力。你们是否注意到中国已经不买更多的侧卫了?包括Su35?现在J10有两条生产线,每月生产3架,目标是年底拥有3个团(接近100架)。明年就有新改型出来了。作为一个失败的项目,这些还算不错吧?

请问wwu2142,这段话是印度人还是巴人写的?感觉和虚幻的老大们口径一致啊?
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<P>computer0530,</P>
<P>我一直以为tphuang就是你呢,不是吗?</P>