美国重量级军界/外交界人士向奥巴马施压:向乌克兰提供防 ...

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      纽约时报星期日报道8名前政府官员和布鲁金斯研究所将于2月2日星期一发表共同声明,要求奥巴马政府考虑向乌克兰提供防卫(即致命性)武器,到目前为止奥巴马政府因为对普京(在美国提供防卫性武器)可能采取的针对措施心有余悸,所以不愿意提供,以免进一步恶化局势,但是奥巴马政府对此建议进行重新考虑.
     共同声明的pdf文件(压缩为zip文件)可以从此贴子里下载(英文)
   

By MICHAEL R. GORDON and ERIC SCHMITTFEB. 1, 2015
Photo

Ukrainian soldiers in the Donetsk region. In an independent report to be issued Monday, eight former senior American officials urge that the United States send defensive arms and equipment to Ukraine.


Credit Manu Brabo/Agence France-Presse — Getty Images
Continue reading the main storyContinue reading the main storyContinue reading the main storyShare This Page
WASHINGTON — With Russian-backed separatists pressing their attacks in Ukraine, NATO’s military commander, Gen. Philip M. Breedlove, now supports providing defensive weapons and equipment to Kiev’s beleaguered forces, and an array of administration and military officials appear to be edging toward that position, American officials said Sunday.

President Obama has made no decisions on providing such lethal assistance. But after a series of striking reversals that Ukraine’s forces have suffered in recent weeks, the Obama administration is taking a fresh look at the question of military assistance.

Secretary of State John Kerry, who plans to visit Kiev on Thursday, is open to new discussions about providing lethal aid, as is Gen. Martin E. Dempsey, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, officials said.

Continue reading the main story
RELATED COVERAGE

Ukraine Fighting Continues as Talks StallJAN. 31, 2015
A Silver Lining Coated in Coal Dust in Eastern Ukraine JAN. 31, 2015
In recent months, Susan E. Rice, Mr. Obama’s national security adviser, has resisted proposals to provide lethal assistance, several officials said. But one official said that she was now prepared to reconsider the issue.

Fearing that the provision of defensive weapons might tempt President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia to raise the stakes, the White House has limited American aid to “non-lethal” items, including body armor, night-vision goggles, first aid kits and engineering equipment.

But the failure of economic sanctions to dissuade Russia from sending heavy weapons and military personnel to eastern Ukraine is pushing the issue of defensive weapons back into discussion.

“Although our focus remains on pursuing a solution through diplomatic means, we are always evaluating other options that will help create space for a negotiated solution to the crisis,” said Bernadette Meehan, a spokeswoman for the National Security Council.

Fueling the broader debate over policy is an independent report to be issued Monday by eight former senior American officials, who urge the United States to send $3 billion in defensive arms and equipment to Ukraine, including anti-armor missiles, reconnaissance drones, armored Humvees and radars that can determine the location of enemy rocket and artillery fire.

Continue reading the main story
Michèle A. Flournoy, a former senior Pentagon official who was among those considered to replace Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel, joined in preparing the report. Others include James G. Stavridis, a retired admiral who served as the top NATO military commander, and Ivo Daalder, the United States ambassador to NATO during Mr. Obama’s first term.

“The West needs to bolster deterrence in Ukraine by raising the risks and costs to Russia of any renewed major offensive,” the report says. “That requires providing direct military assistance — in far larger amounts than provided to date and including lethal defensive arms.”

In his State of the Union address last month, Mr. Obama noted that the economic sanctions imposed by the United States and its allies had hurt the Russian economy.

But American officials acknowledge that Russia has repeatedly violated an agreement, reached in Minsk in September. The agreement called for an immediate cease-fire in Ukraine, the removal of foreign forces and the establishment of monitoring arrangements to ensure that the border between Ukraine and Russia would be respected.

Continue reading the main story
In recent weeks, Russia has shipped a large number of heavy weapons to support the separatists’ offensive in eastern Ukraine, including T-80 and T-72 tanks, multiple-launch rocket systems, artillery and armored personnel carriers, Western officials say.

Some of the weapons are too sophisticated to be used by hastily trained separatists, said a Western official who, like others discussing the issue, declined to be identified because he was discussing intelligence reports and internal policy debates. NATO officials estimate that about 1,000 Russian military and intelligence personnel are supporting the separatist offensive while Ukrainian officials insist that the number is much higher.

Supported by the Russians, the separatists have captured the airport at Donetsk and are pressing to take Debaltseve, a town that sits aside a critical rail junction.

All told, the separatists have captured 500 square kilometers — about 193 square miles — of additional territory in the past four months, NATO says. The assessment of some senior Western officials is that the Kremlin’s goal is to replace the Minsk agreement with an accord that leaves the separatists with a more economically viable enclave and would be more favorable to the Kremlin’s interests.

A spokesman for General Breedlove declined to comment on his view on providing defensive weapons, which was disclosed by United States officials privy to confidential discussions.

“General Breedlove has repeatedly stated that he supports the pursuit of a diplomatic solution as well as considering practical means of support to the government of Ukraine in its struggle against Russian-backed separatists,” the spokesman, Capt. Gregory L. Hicks of the Navy, said.

But a Pentagon official who is familiar with the views of General Dempsey and Adm. James A. Winnefeld Jr., the vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said they believed the issue of defensive weapons should be reconsidered.

“A comprehensive approach is warranted, and we agree that defensive equipment and weapons should be part of that discussion.” the Pentagon official said.

Russian casualties remain a delicate political issue for Mr. Putin, who has denied that Russian troops have been ordered to fight in Ukraine.

The report by Ms. Flournoy and the other former officials argues that the United States and its allies should capitalize on this fact to dissuade the Russians and the separatists from expanding their offensive.

“One of the best ways to deter Russia from supporting the rebels in taking more territory and stepping up the conflict is to increase the cost that the Russians or their surrogates would incur,” Ms. Flournoy said.

The current stock of Ukrainian anti-armor missiles, the report notes, is at least two decades old, and most of them are out of commission.

So the report recommends that the United States provide the Ukrainian military with light anti-armor missiles, which might include Javelin antitank missiles.

“Providing the Ukrainians with something that can stop an armored assault and that puts at risk Russia or Russian-backed forces that are in armored vehicles, I think, is the most important aspect of this,” she added.

Continue reading the main storyContinue reading the main story
The Obama administration has provided radars that can locate the source of mortars. But the report urges the United States to also provide radars that can pinpoint the location of rocket and artillery fire. Enemy rocket and artillery attacks account for 70 percent of the Ukrainian military’s casualties, the report says, citing statistics provided by a Ukrainian officer.

Ukraine, the report notes, also needs reconnaissance drones, especially since the Ukrainian military has stopped all flights over eastern Ukraine because of the separatists’ use of antiaircraft missiles supplied by Russia.

The report also urged the United States to provide military communications equipment that cannot be intercepted by Russian intelligence and recommended the transfer of armored Humvees and field hospitals.

Poland, the Baltic States, Canada and Britain, the report says, might also provide defensive weapons if the United States takes the lead.

The report was issued jointly by the Atlantic Council, the Brookings Institution and the Chicago Council on Global Affairs. The other officials who prepared it are Strobe Talbott, who served as deputy secretary of State in the Clinton administration; Charles F. Wald, a retired Air Force general who served as deputy commander of the United States European Command; Jan M. Lodal, a former Pentagon official; and two former U.S. ambassadors to Ukraine, John Herbst and Steven Pifer.

      纽约时报星期日报道8名前政府官员和布鲁金斯研究所将于2月2日星期一发表共同声明,要求奥巴马政府考虑向乌克兰提供防卫(即致命性)武器,到目前为止奥巴马政府因为对普京(在美国提供防卫性武器)可能采取的针对措施心有余悸,所以不愿意提供,以免进一步恶化局势,但是奥巴马政府对此建议进行重新考虑.
     共同声明的pdf文件(压缩为zip文件)可以从此贴子里下载(英文)
   

By MICHAEL R. GORDON and ERIC SCHMITTFEB. 1, 2015
Photo

Ukrainian soldiers in the Donetsk region. In an independent report to be issued Monday, eight former senior American officials urge that the United States send defensive arms and equipment to Ukraine.


Credit Manu Brabo/Agence France-Presse — Getty Images
Continue reading the main storyContinue reading the main storyContinue reading the main storyShare This Page
WASHINGTON — With Russian-backed separatists pressing their attacks in Ukraine, NATO’s military commander, Gen. Philip M. Breedlove, now supports providing defensive weapons and equipment to Kiev’s beleaguered forces, and an array of administration and military officials appear to be edging toward that position, American officials said Sunday.

President Obama has made no decisions on providing such lethal assistance. But after a series of striking reversals that Ukraine’s forces have suffered in recent weeks, the Obama administration is taking a fresh look at the question of military assistance.

Secretary of State John Kerry, who plans to visit Kiev on Thursday, is open to new discussions about providing lethal aid, as is Gen. Martin E. Dempsey, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, officials said.

Continue reading the main story
RELATED COVERAGE

Ukraine Fighting Continues as Talks StallJAN. 31, 2015
A Silver Lining Coated in Coal Dust in Eastern Ukraine JAN. 31, 2015
In recent months, Susan E. Rice, Mr. Obama’s national security adviser, has resisted proposals to provide lethal assistance, several officials said. But one official said that she was now prepared to reconsider the issue.

Fearing that the provision of defensive weapons might tempt President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia to raise the stakes, the White House has limited American aid to “non-lethal” items, including body armor, night-vision goggles, first aid kits and engineering equipment.

But the failure of economic sanctions to dissuade Russia from sending heavy weapons and military personnel to eastern Ukraine is pushing the issue of defensive weapons back into discussion.

“Although our focus remains on pursuing a solution through diplomatic means, we are always evaluating other options that will help create space for a negotiated solution to the crisis,” said Bernadette Meehan, a spokeswoman for the National Security Council.

Fueling the broader debate over policy is an independent report to be issued Monday by eight former senior American officials, who urge the United States to send $3 billion in defensive arms and equipment to Ukraine, including anti-armor missiles, reconnaissance drones, armored Humvees and radars that can determine the location of enemy rocket and artillery fire.

Continue reading the main story
Michèle A. Flournoy, a former senior Pentagon official who was among those considered to replace Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel, joined in preparing the report. Others include James G. Stavridis, a retired admiral who served as the top NATO military commander, and Ivo Daalder, the United States ambassador to NATO during Mr. Obama’s first term.

“The West needs to bolster deterrence in Ukraine by raising the risks and costs to Russia of any renewed major offensive,” the report says. “That requires providing direct military assistance — in far larger amounts than provided to date and including lethal defensive arms.”

In his State of the Union address last month, Mr. Obama noted that the economic sanctions imposed by the United States and its allies had hurt the Russian economy.

But American officials acknowledge that Russia has repeatedly violated an agreement, reached in Minsk in September. The agreement called for an immediate cease-fire in Ukraine, the removal of foreign forces and the establishment of monitoring arrangements to ensure that the border between Ukraine and Russia would be respected.

Continue reading the main story
In recent weeks, Russia has shipped a large number of heavy weapons to support the separatists’ offensive in eastern Ukraine, including T-80 and T-72 tanks, multiple-launch rocket systems, artillery and armored personnel carriers, Western officials say.

Some of the weapons are too sophisticated to be used by hastily trained separatists, said a Western official who, like others discussing the issue, declined to be identified because he was discussing intelligence reports and internal policy debates. NATO officials estimate that about 1,000 Russian military and intelligence personnel are supporting the separatist offensive while Ukrainian officials insist that the number is much higher.

Supported by the Russians, the separatists have captured the airport at Donetsk and are pressing to take Debaltseve, a town that sits aside a critical rail junction.

All told, the separatists have captured 500 square kilometers — about 193 square miles — of additional territory in the past four months, NATO says. The assessment of some senior Western officials is that the Kremlin’s goal is to replace the Minsk agreement with an accord that leaves the separatists with a more economically viable enclave and would be more favorable to the Kremlin’s interests.

A spokesman for General Breedlove declined to comment on his view on providing defensive weapons, which was disclosed by United States officials privy to confidential discussions.

“General Breedlove has repeatedly stated that he supports the pursuit of a diplomatic solution as well as considering practical means of support to the government of Ukraine in its struggle against Russian-backed separatists,” the spokesman, Capt. Gregory L. Hicks of the Navy, said.

But a Pentagon official who is familiar with the views of General Dempsey and Adm. James A. Winnefeld Jr., the vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said they believed the issue of defensive weapons should be reconsidered.

“A comprehensive approach is warranted, and we agree that defensive equipment and weapons should be part of that discussion.” the Pentagon official said.

Russian casualties remain a delicate political issue for Mr. Putin, who has denied that Russian troops have been ordered to fight in Ukraine.

The report by Ms. Flournoy and the other former officials argues that the United States and its allies should capitalize on this fact to dissuade the Russians and the separatists from expanding their offensive.

“One of the best ways to deter Russia from supporting the rebels in taking more territory and stepping up the conflict is to increase the cost that the Russians or their surrogates would incur,” Ms. Flournoy said.

The current stock of Ukrainian anti-armor missiles, the report notes, is at least two decades old, and most of them are out of commission.

So the report recommends that the United States provide the Ukrainian military with light anti-armor missiles, which might include Javelin antitank missiles.

“Providing the Ukrainians with something that can stop an armored assault and that puts at risk Russia or Russian-backed forces that are in armored vehicles, I think, is the most important aspect of this,” she added.

Continue reading the main storyContinue reading the main story
The Obama administration has provided radars that can locate the source of mortars. But the report urges the United States to also provide radars that can pinpoint the location of rocket and artillery fire. Enemy rocket and artillery attacks account for 70 percent of the Ukrainian military’s casualties, the report says, citing statistics provided by a Ukrainian officer.

Ukraine, the report notes, also needs reconnaissance drones, especially since the Ukrainian military has stopped all flights over eastern Ukraine because of the separatists’ use of antiaircraft missiles supplied by Russia.

The report also urged the United States to provide military communications equipment that cannot be intercepted by Russian intelligence and recommended the transfer of armored Humvees and field hospitals.

Poland, the Baltic States, Canada and Britain, the report says, might also provide defensive weapons if the United States takes the lead.

The report was issued jointly by the Atlantic Council, the Brookings Institution and the Chicago Council on Global Affairs. The other officials who prepared it are Strobe Talbott, who served as deputy secretary of State in the Clinton administration; Charles F. Wald, a retired Air Force general who served as deputy commander of the United States European Command; Jan M. Lodal, a former Pentagon official; and two former U.S. ambassadors to Ukraine, John Herbst and Steven Pifer.
美利坚提供武器之后,大毛会不会捋胳膊亲自上阵,或者打着志愿军的旗号。美利坚实质性、台面上的介入只会加剧局势严重性(俄罗斯仇恨将拉得更多,我喜欢)。美俄如何博弈拭目以待。
真以为逼急了毛熊不敢拿核弹蹦你啊?那可是战斗民族啊!


   很明显奥巴马担心俄罗斯会全方位入侵并迅速占领乌克兰,到时候不派兵支持乌克兰的话,东欧小国会被吓死,到时候美国最担心的事情就会发生:是保全自己的名声(誓死捍卫自由民主[谁都知道这个说给孩子听的]),还是拿3.1亿美国人的性命作为赌注?以我对美国人的了解,到时候美国国内要求美国保卫自己国民的呼声会排山倒海,当然美国建立的战后国际安全秩序就会彻底瓦解.

   很明显奥巴马担心俄罗斯会全方位入侵并迅速占领乌克兰,到时候不派兵支持乌克兰的话,东欧小国会被吓死,到时候美国最担心的事情就会发生:是保全自己的名声(誓死捍卫自由民主[谁都知道这个说给孩子听的]),还是拿3.1亿美国人的性命作为赌注?以我对美国人的了解,到时候美国国内要求美国保卫自己国民的呼声会排山倒海,当然美国建立的战后国际安全秩序就会彻底瓦解.
供应武器不是问题,问题是谁来买单?
      我的感觉是最有可能发生的情况是美国全方位制裁俄罗斯,但是在军事援助上做做样子,俄罗斯因为经济重创而占领乌克兰(真正的目的是打击美国的声誉),到时候美国找个台阶下,这时候美国有可能在东亚挑起战争来挽回一点面子,毕竟美国设立北约的最最最根本核心的目的是把俄罗斯等潜在敌人困在一个较小的地方困死,让俄罗斯没有能力在美国附近地区威胁美国,从而达到美国的国家安全,美国不到万不得已绝对不会拿自己的全部国民性命作为赌注!
提供给乌克兰政府军天王老子都没用~
dllwn 发表于 2015-2-2 09:55
真以为逼急了毛熊不敢拿核弹蹦你啊?那可是战斗民族啊!
好像美国没有核武器似的,所谓“战斗民族”当年古巴危机可是先怂的那个
charda 发表于 2015-2-2 10:14
好像美国没有核武器似的,所谓“战斗民族”当年古巴危机可是先怂的那个
俩坏淫,这是在浇油,造吗——不过,能给我一桶油吗?
人老人 发表于 2015-2-2 10:21
俩坏淫,这是在浇油,造吗——不过,能给我一桶油吗?
油+打火机,都给你
caricatore75 发表于 2015-2-2 10:07
我的感觉是最有可能发生的情况是美国全方位制裁俄罗斯,但是在军事援助上做做样子,俄罗斯因为经济重创 ...
写小说呢,东亚这边明显比乌克兰那边更难搞
好像美国没有核武器似的,所谓“战斗民族”当年古巴危机可是先怂的那个
嘿,兄弟,古巴对于美国的位置和乌克兰对于毛熊的位置。。。。如果参照的话,美帝会怂。。。
   今后1-12个月关键是德国法国的态度,真的发生战争德国是受害者,所以德国会反对大力军事援助乌克兰,甚至可能出现德国乘这个甩开美国单独和俄罗斯达成有关乌克兰前途的协议,最终乌克兰在经济上加入欧盟,但是军事上保持中立,而德国一跃成为政治大国,和法国一同主导今后50年欧洲的经济和安全.
CD998 发表于 2015-2-2 10:25
嘿,兄弟,古巴对于美国的位置和乌克兰对于毛熊的位置。。。。如果参照的话,美帝会怂。。。
俄罗斯的实力有他爹苏联三分之一个指头强么
俄罗斯的实力有他爹苏联三分之一个指头强么
木有,所以俩都不会怂   哇哈哈哈,实在高兴!!
乌克兰要和平只能分裂,东西两部人民已经各不相容,这比基辅政府的空喊口号实在得多。地缘政治上,二毛家在北约东扩之后就如果不亲大毛就至少得是个中立的缓冲地带,倒向西方就的等于把刀架在大毛的脖子上逼大毛杀了二毛。大毛可不跟你讲什么自古以来,暴力能解决的问题就不是问题。
运输大队长,人,赶紧上人
    刚才阅读德国电视一台在布达佩斯对默克尔的采访,她对匈牙利的口气就像美国对韩国的口气那样. . 这次的危机没准真的让德国成为政治强国!
主要是军工集团先要叫人去放火,后面才能财源广进啊。
caster5 发表于 2015-2-2 11:08
主要是军工集团先要叫人去放火,后面才能财源广进啊。
是时候支援一批中国武器了,不过要转口贸易。
2个家伙块头都很大 没到撕破脸皮伤经动骨的地步 大毛也不会默认刀子逼到胸口的结局 这可不是当初的南斯拉夫

caster5 发表于 2015-2-2 11:08
主要是军工集团先要叫人去放火,后面才能财源广进啊。


军工集团那也要能收回钱,收不回钱的买卖难道去当凯子啊,而且乌克兰的这烂摊子还真有这可能。老美在那投入多少,毛子投入多少,前苏联的库存反正那么多,民兵都挖到两个百万级的军火库,何况毛子?不用还得找人看守或拆掉,援助给东乌又有利民族情感又消耗库存还能得些银子,何乐而不为呢?战事若吃紧,甚至不排除危机时刻战斗熊换身皮亲自上,最后就打成个无底洞。军工集团找谁要钱去?找乌克兰政府,我看美国人自己都不信。最后还不是找美国政府,无论是贷款还是直接援助,埋单的都是美国政府,奥黑会掏这钱?最后,乌克兰政府打成现在这样压根就不是军火的问题,乌军在军备层面比民兵还要高很多,当年前苏联留下的东西那么多难道都比美国差了?我看不见得。说白了,乌克兰目前这样完全是人的问题,战役从组织到规划到实施的能力通通有问题,还不说间谍情报问题,既然压根就不是军备的问题,你再提供装备那也是送。。。。

caster5 发表于 2015-2-2 11:08
主要是军工集团先要叫人去放火,后面才能财源广进啊。


军工集团那也要能收回钱,收不回钱的买卖难道去当凯子啊,而且乌克兰的这烂摊子还真有这可能。老美在那投入多少,毛子投入多少,前苏联的库存反正那么多,民兵都挖到两个百万级的军火库,何况毛子?不用还得找人看守或拆掉,援助给东乌又有利民族情感又消耗库存还能得些银子,何乐而不为呢?战事若吃紧,甚至不排除危机时刻战斗熊换身皮亲自上,最后就打成个无底洞。军工集团找谁要钱去?找乌克兰政府,我看美国人自己都不信。最后还不是找美国政府,无论是贷款还是直接援助,埋单的都是美国政府,奥黑会掏这钱?最后,乌克兰政府打成现在这样压根就不是军火的问题,乌军在军备层面比民兵还要高很多,当年前苏联留下的东西那么多难道都比美国差了?我看不见得。说白了,乌克兰目前这样完全是人的问题,战役从组织到规划到实施的能力通通有问题,还不说间谍情报问题,既然压根就不是军备的问题,你再提供装备那也是送。。。。
好像美国没有核武器似的,所谓“战斗民族”当年古巴危机可是先怂的那个
你没有战略观!连战术观也没有!强盗跑到你家门口要强干你了,是你会拼命还是强盗会拼命!强盗打不羸可以跑,但你能跑吗?绝不能吧!强盗可进可退,也可以怂!但你能怂吗?
骏马 发表于 2015-2-2 12:04
你没有战略观!连战术观也没有!强盗跑到你家门口要强干你了,是你会拼命还是强盗会拼命!强盗打不羸可以 ...
你显然误解了我的话,当然如果你真的认为鹅毛会使用核武器的话,那么你就没误解
这基本就是共和党用来羞辱奥巴马的手段,本身没有什么战略考量。美国过度插手乌克兰是有可能导致三战的,而乌克兰本身就不是美国的势力范围。相对来说把有限的力量用来遏制中国收效更大
奥黑已公开承认去年就参与乌政变进程,现骑虎难下,进程未卜
乌克兰的逗比不知道会不会把裤衩卖了去买MD的防卫武器
西乌的豆逼付得起钱吗?我深深的陷入思考中!
西乌诸逗是凯申公传人,物流大队长,就是把F22给他们也不过给东乌当后勤部长而已